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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Aniuś the Talewise wrote:


could you rephrase that? I don't understand what you're trying to say.

Trying to not lose the thread of thought I had here. The idea that perhaps 'conventional wisdom' of mental health may *not* be quite on the mark, and that some of the 'fixes' are actually WORSE than the 'problem that didn't need fixing'?

I'm not denying that there are some people who get helped greatly from treatment. But there are also those for whom treatment is not helpful or actually makes things worse.

General thought: If a body isn't the way conventional thought thinks, and treatment via conventional thought causes more harm, is treatment 'harm' despite it's supposed 'help' factor?


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Wei Ji the Learner wrote:
Aniuś the Talewise wrote:


could you rephrase that? I don't understand what you're trying to say.

Trying to not lose the thread of thought I had here. The idea that perhaps 'conventional wisdom' of mental health may *not* be quite on the mark, and that some of the 'fixes' are actually WORSE than the 'problem that didn't need fixing'?

I'm not denying that there are some people who get helped greatly from treatment. But there are also those for whom treatment is not helpful or actually makes things worse.

General thought: If a body isn't the way conventional thought thinks, and treatment via conventional thought causes more harm, is treatment 'harm' despite it's supposed 'help' factor?

ah I understand now! Yes, I definitely think you're on the right track.

the fact that a number of psychologists in the field are actually abusive/ableist and have no business working with disabled people is definitely a factor.


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Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
Chief Cook and Bottlewasher wrote:
if I needed the toilet during the night, I had to cup them and walk slowly or it hurt too much. :)

...I hate to see a woman doing a man's job...!

(I'm joking! Please don't kill me!)

I think it was abundantly clear that pokes in painful places would not be well received. Very badly received, even :)


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Aniuś the Talewise wrote:


the idea that autism is a 'male brain' is an outdated pseudo-science, I'm afraid. "aspergers" is also no longer a diagnosis as of the DSM-V.

Which will be outdated psuedo science in the DSM VI? :)

Putting two vastly different things on a spectrum because they share a few behaviors is the pseudoscience. We don't know if they share a root cause, or even what the root cause IS for either of them. Without that comparing the two is like comparing a bridge jumper and a sky diver because they both involve falling.

Quote:
also, it isn't that males are more likely to have adhd, it's that females tend to be underdiagnosed. girls tend to be socialized to remain quieter than boys, as a result their symptoms manifest as daydreaming or whatnot and are more easily missed.

Like I said, ADHD is a symptom, not a condition.

I do not buy into the tabula rasa hypothesis of human behavior that seems very popular on these boards. You have a brain soaking in a chemical objectively known to cause restlessness and aggression that is set up to soak up said chemical like a sponge and oddly enough you get more restlessness and aggression.

Quote:
(seeing as the socialization of boys tends to encourage them to be such and the socialization of girls frames it as not a possibility)

I very much remember a great deal of attempts to socialize away that sort of behavior. It really didn't take. That behavior is very much discouraged, the socialization just doesn't work. (bringing it back around to your other point about adhd links: part of aspergers is missing social cues, which means you're missing some of the socialization)


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Feeling the leg of the elephant when you're blind gives you the impression that it is a tree.

Feeling the trunk of the elephant gives the idea that it's long and hose-like.

Feeling the ears, large and flappy.

Yet, to someone who is only seeing part of the picture, it is the whole picture.

Neural mapping isn't a thing *yet* and it's going to be scary when it becomes one.

We may not like what we find, there as a species.

Liberty's Edge

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Well, considering that some forms of 'ADHD' would be valuable for primitive ancestors when hunting or watching out for a leopard and that those activities tend towards being male activities in apes, it seems plausible that there might be some correlation between them.

Of course there's a correlation between the rise in global temperature and the decrease in piracy in the Caribbean too.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Krensky wrote:

Of course there's a correlation between the rise in global temperature and the decrease in piracy in the Caribbean too.

Disney bought them out so they could retire to a nice Midwestern town with centrist values?


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Treatment for ASD is simple: It doesn't exist. Certainly, medication can help the person deal with various subproblems involved in their condition, and therapy can be used both with the person and their close ones to help deal with it, but all in all, there is no cure whatsoever. As well there shouldn't. It is a brain that works differently. We do not yet have the technology to fix such issues, just certain expressions of their function.

For ADHD, central stimulantia do work in a majority of cases, though certainly not all. They cause no damage, they can be taken out if they do not work, and the side effects are not damgerous. In what way is functioning better and being able to concentrate like others can worse than the problem they are trying to fix?


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Putting two vastly different things on a spectrum because they share a few behaviors is the pseudoscience. We don't know if they share a root cause, or even what the root cause IS for either of them. Without that comparing the two is like comparing a bridge jumper and a sky diver because they both involve falling.

it is now generally accepted that what was called 'aspergers' is in fact a form of autism (which share more than just a few behaviors lol), and that autism is a spectrum. you're still behind by at least a decade.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
I very much remember a great deal of attempts to socialize away that sort of behavior. It really didn't take. That behavior is very much discouraged, the socialization just doesn't work. (bringing it back around to your other point about adhd links: part of aspergers is missing social cues, which means you're missing some of the socialization)

ok maybe I failed to explain my socialization point properly. A society with socialization "Boys are rowdy + boys should really learn to sit down and listen to adults but boys will be boys" and socialization "Girls are quiet + implied: girls aren't rowdy" tends to produce boys who learn to behave rowdy, and girls who tend to learn to behave quiet. It's even more likely for adhd boys to learn to behave rowdy because adhd causes impulsivity, and hyperactivity needs a bigger outlet. (That being said, acting out, etc isn't the only outlet for hyperactivity, which could also be in being trying to engage in many activities at once even if they aren't necessarily energetic ones, or stimming/shaking the limbs; which is how hyperactivity in girls and/or kids who don't like running around and playing can be missed)

shorter/simpler way to put it: There is a difference between a socialization "x isn't y" and "x should stop being y but is y anyway".

i agree with you that autism can lead to missing of socialization.


Aniuś the Talewise wrote:

it is now generally accepted that what was called 'aspergers' is in fact a form of autism (which share more than just a few behaviors lol)

Based on what?

Quote:
and that autism is a spectrum. you're still behind by at least a decade.

So is my hairstyle clothes glasses and a dozen other fads.

Quote:
ok maybe I failed to explain my socialization point properly. A society with socialization "Boys are rowdy + boys should really learn to sit down and listen to adults but boys will be boys"

That would be all of them that have ever engaged in the exercise of trying to get children to sit still.

Quote:
tends to produce boys who learn to behave rowdy, and girls who tend to learn to behave quiet.

I think you have the cart before the horse there.


I think, in general, that there is far too many people willing to believe in biological determinism even when there is no evidence for such a thing being true in the first place. If biological determinism was a thing at all, we wouldn't have divergent evolution, genetic plasticity, evolutionary "dead ends" and so on.

The idea that biology is somehow "guided" by some sort of hyperlogical, Darwinistic, intelligent design feels very much like a modern-day religion. I mean, I don't blame them, people who reject formal religion often forget that faith is a psychological need like any other, because it helps people cope with the reality of their lives or the events that happen in the world. So they instead place their faith in science and create dogmas where there is no need for them to exist, while not acknowledging that they're doing so.

As a scientist, it's often exhausting hearing people talk about science in such confident and absolute terms, particularly on speculative fields like evolution and why X or Y condition exists.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Aniuś the Talewise wrote:

it is now generally accepted that what was called 'aspergers' is in fact a form of autism (which share more than just a few behaviors lol)

Based on what?

Disputed, I think, but this for example: ‘Autism Spectrum Condition’ is used to describe the range of the autism spectrum, including Asperger syndrome.


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Shadow Knight 12 wrote:

I think, in general, that there is far too many people willing to believe in biological determinism even when there is no evidence for such a thing being true in the first place. If biological determinism was a thing at all, we wouldn't have divergent evolution, genetic plasticity, evolutionary "dead ends" and so on.

The idea that biology is somehow "guided" by some sort of hyperlogical, Darwinistic, intelligent design feels very much like a modern-day religion. I mean, I don't blame them, people who reject formal religion often forget that faith is a psychological need like any other, because it helps people cope with the reality of their lives or the events that happen in the world. So they instead place their faith in science and create dogmas where there is no need for them to exist, while not acknowledging that they're doing so.

As a scientist, it's often exhausting hearing people talk about science in such confident and absolute terms, particularly on speculative fields like evolution and why X or Y condition exists.

I don't think that's what biological determinism is. As I understand it, in this context, it likely translates into people being born gay or straight or bi or cis or trans. That such things aren't chosen or the result of your culture or upbringing.

Strictly speaking, it's that all human behavior is biologically driven, which is much more arguable, though I suspect it's closer than we like to think. But applied loosely, to specific things, there is a lot of evidence.

But, near as I can tell, it's got nothing to do with "divergent evolution, genetic plasticity, evolutionary "dead ends" and so on". Or intelligent design, for that matter.


Aniuś the Talewise wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Apsergers has also been described as a very male brain. Males are particularly prone to ADHD. It would make sense that a brain even more strongly wired that way would be more prone to it.
the idea that autism is a 'male brain' is an outdated pseudo-science, I'm afraid. "aspergers" is also no longer a diagnosis as of the DSM-V.

ugh, don't remind me. I have to update everything....


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BigNorseWolf wrote:


I do not buy into the tabula rasa hypothesis of human behavior that seems very popular on these boards. You have a brain soaking in a chemical objectively known to cause restlessness and aggression that is set up to soak up said chemical like a sponge and oddly enough you get more restlessness and aggression.

It took me a really long time to completely realize the concept that everything we are as people is contained just within a glob of chemically soaked tissue.

It was something I understood intellectually for a long time but it wasn't until I had some personal experiences with it that it really sunk in for me.

One was when I was put on some anti-psychotics for seizures and it had the nasty effect on me of driving me psychotic, completely erasing all sense of self and knowledge of self as well as subjecting me to sanity shattering hallucinations and despair and hopelessness beyond anything I had ever felt naturally, all of which cleared up after I stopped the meds and then I was back to my normal self.

And two when my brother came back from the marines and at his welcome home party continued his endless tradition of pranking me by heavily dosing me with Molly without my knowledge, after which I spent the next twelve hours knowing an indescribable love, so vast and pure I hadn't ever imagined such a thing was possible. I loved everyone and everything with a divine, pure love.

After those bits I realized that if everything I am and everything I experience can be changed that drastically by just the consumption of relatively small amounts of chemicals...

Yeah, I long understood it intellectually but then I understood emotionally as well that all I am and all I experience is contained within within a globe of sparky, chemical soaked grey matter...

How marvelous and extraordinary and how mundane and silly.

*Eats more Cheetos and plays more Skyrim to induce more pleasurable chemical brain sparks.*

Contributor

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BigNorseWolf wrote:

I do not buy into the tabula rasa hypothesis of human behavior that seems very popular on these boards. You have a brain soaking in a chemical objectively known to cause restlessness and aggression that is set up to soak up said chemical like a sponge and oddly enough you get more restlessness and aggression.

The tabula rasa idea of the brain is a beloved ideological myth, largely glorified in the social sciences and with ghost of Lysenko'esque 'socialization rules all' being woven into it. The brain is more complex, and biology has a lurking puppeteer's role underneath socialization and learned behavior. Certain characteristics and behaviors have a strong biological influence (sexuality, gender identity, certain cognitive potential, etc).

Even without getting into the literature, the horrors of the David Reimer case should put tabula rasa to the sword.


However, for those of us old enough to have been living with a diagnosis of Asperger's for for a good many years, simply to be told that it's an outdated diagnosis and you're actually autistic is not at all helpful. In my mind, that's like telling a homosexual that he's actually part of a Gender/Sexual Minority, because some psychologists have decided that that's a better term and everyone will now use it, whether you like it or not.


Yuugasa wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:


I do not buy into the tabula rasa hypothesis of human behavior that seems very popular on these boards. You have a brain soaking in a chemical objectively known to cause restlessness and aggression that is set up to soak up said chemical like a sponge and oddly enough you get more restlessness and aggression.

It took me a really long time to completely realize the concept that everything we are as people is contained just within a glob of chemically soaked tissue.

It was something I understood intellectually for a long time but it wasn't until I had some personal experiences with it that it really sunk in for me.

One was when I was put on some anti-psychotics for seizures and it had the nasty effect on me of driving me psychotic, completely erasing all sense of self and knowledge of self as well as subjecting me to sanity shattering hallucinations and despair and hopelessness beyond anything I had ever felt naturally, all of which cleared up after I stopped the meds and then I was back to my normal self.

And two when my brother came back from the marines and at his welcome home party continued his endless tradition of pranking me by heavily dosing me with Molly without my knowledge, after which I spent the next twelve hours knowing an indescribable love, so vast and pure I hadn't ever imagined such a thing was possible. I loved everyone and everything with a divine, pure love.

After those bits I realized that if everything I am and everything I experience can be changed that drastically by just the consumption of relatively small amounts of chemicals...

Yeah, I long understood it intellectually but then I understood emotionally as well that all I am and all I experience is contained within within a globe of sparky, chemical soaked grey matter...

How marvelous and extraordinary and how mundane and silly.

*Eats more Cheetos and plays more Skyrim to induce more pleasurable chemical brain sparks.*

wow.


Todd Stewart wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

I do not buy into the tabula rasa hypothesis of human behavior that seems very popular on these boards. You have a brain soaking in a chemical objectively known to cause restlessness and aggression that is set up to soak up said chemical like a sponge and oddly enough you get more restlessness and aggression.

The tabula rasa idea of the brain is a beloved ideological myth, largely glorified in the social sciences and with ghost of Lysenko'esque 'socialization rules all' being woven into it. The brain is more complex, and biology has a lurking puppeteer's role underneath socialization and learned behavior. Certain characteristics and behaviors have a strong biological influence (sexuality, gender identity, certain cognitive potential, etc).

Even without getting into the literature, the horrors of the David Reimer case should put tabula rasa to the sword.

hm.

I don't agree. I see where you are coming from though, and I admit my own biases.


thejeff wrote:

I don't think that's what biological determinism is. As I understand it, in this context, it likely translates into people being born gay or straight or bi or cis or trans. That such things aren't chosen or the result of your culture or upbringing.

Strictly speaking, it's that all human behavior is biologically driven, which is much more arguable, though I suspect it's closer than we like to think. But applied loosely, to specific things, there is a lot of evidence.

But, near as I can tell, it's got nothing to do with "divergent evolution, genetic plasticity, evolutionary "dead ends" and so on". Or intelligent design, for that matter.

People have different ideas of what biological determinism means, and I'm addressing all of them.

In general, people become too emotionally attached to certain interpretations of the universe and how reality works because they cannot deal with uncertainty. The idea that we're simply molecules randomly colliding in the vacuum of space is too nihilistic for a lot of people to accept, so they cling to apophenia as a coping mechanism.

They see patterns and correlations beyond what the evidence supports and defend them because they are emotionally attached.


Shadow Knight 12 wrote:
thejeff wrote:

I don't think that's what biological determinism is. As I understand it, in this context, it likely translates into people being born gay or straight or bi or cis or trans. That such things aren't chosen or the result of your culture or upbringing.

Strictly speaking, it's that all human behavior is biologically driven, which is much more arguable, though I suspect it's closer than we like to think. But applied loosely, to specific things, there is a lot of evidence.

But, near as I can tell, it's got nothing to do with "divergent evolution, genetic plasticity, evolutionary "dead ends" and so on". Or intelligent design, for that matter.

People have different ideas of what biological determinism means, and I'm addressing all of them.

In general, people become too emotionally attached to certain interpretations of the universe and how reality works because they cannot deal with uncertainty. The idea that we're simply molecules randomly colliding in the vacuum of space is too nihilistic for a lot of people to accept, so they cling to apophenia as a coping mechanism.

They see patterns and correlations beyond what the evidence supports and defend them because they are emotionally attached.

I suppose. In that case, your post seems really out of left field. :)

In my case though, I find that "molecules randomly colliding in the vacuum of space" can develop culture, art and technology to be damn inspiring, not nihilistic at all.
"There is a grandeur in this view of life."

Liberty's Edge

Point of order, I said it seems reasonable that a correlation between ADHD and being male could exist. Not that it does. That would require proper research. And even then, as the pirate and global warming reference was meant to imply, it doesn't necessarily mean the two are connected at all.


thejeff wrote:
I suppose. In that case, your post seems really out of left field. :)

Well, this is what I was getting at:

Krensky wrote:
Point of order, I said it seems reasonable that a correlation between ADHD and being male could exist. Not that it does. That would require proper research. And even then, as the pirate and global warming reference was meant to imply, it doesn't necessarily mean the two are connected at all.

But I was going about it in a more general and philosophical way. I generally find that being prudent and detached when it comes to scientific findings is the best approach.

thejeff wrote:

In my case though, I find that "molecules randomly colliding in the vacuum of space" can develop culture, art and technology to be damn inspiring, not nihilistic at all.

"There is a grandeur in this view of life."

I completely agree, that's why I adopt that view and embrace it wholeheartedly. There is beauty in chaos and randomness, but people spend too much time trying to decipher the rules that "govern" the chaos in an attempt to tame it because it makes them feel safer.

Then again, I consider myself Chaotically-aligned, so that may be my bias showing. :P


Finding rules in chaos is useless... but every chaotic process has laws it tends to abide by, and these can be determined. Pure randomness doesn't exist. Tabula Rasa is an awful myth, propagated by leftist dictators and others because the end point is "If the right environment can be engineered, every human in society will be shaped into a docile, effective citizen".

Be your chemistry. Relax, and learn to love it. And marvel, humans, at how far that very chemistry can take you.


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As a girl with ADHD, I have experienced the gender bias in diagnosis first hand. And I present with the classic symptoms, minus the loud. My teachers wished I had been loud. A bored hyperactive quiet child with tendency to take things apart to see how they work....well, by the time they noticed I wasn't at my desk I had usually managed to wreak havoc with their classroom. The psychologist literally told my parents that I had all the symptoms of ADD (they hadn't yet added the H back then) but that couldn't be it because only boys had that. >.<
For many girls who are better able to channel the hyperactivity portion, they are simply dismissed as lazy or unmotivated. It's better now than it was when I was a kid, but yes, that gender bias in diagnosis absolutely still exists. Even as an adult with ADHD (because, no, I didn't outgrow it....that would have been lovely, but no) it can be very challenging to deal with people who still don't think that girls can have ADHD.

Liberty's Edge

Well those people are stupid.


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Shadow Knight 12 wrote:


In general, people become too emotionally attached to certain interpretations of the universe and how reality works because they cannot deal with uncertainty. The idea that we're simply molecules randomly colliding in the vacuum of space is too nihilistic for a lot of people to accept, so they cling to apophenia as a coping mechanism.

They see patterns and correlations beyond what the evidence supports and defend them because they are emotionally attached.

I think a great deal of human existence has to do simply with fighting against our own vulnerability, insignificance, and powerlessness, things which we are all acutely aware of on some level yet desperate to escape.

The main things we are inclined to do in life seem to be trying to take control of our circumstances, inflating our sense of self worth, and mulling over the past while working towards and dreaming about that time in the future 'where things will work out for me.'

Of course as time goes on you may start to realize that you can't control your circumstances or the people around you, even in situations where it really, really matters, and all you can effect is your own actions and I say effect, not control because as much as you like to think of yourself as a person who knows yourself well and controls your own decisions the more you pay attention you notice that you don't often have the reactions to things you would like to and sometimes your responses in stressful situations surprise even you.

And then you start noticing the billion little ways that the people around you are slowly rewriting the history of their life in subtle ways with every conversation you have with them, whitewashing history to make themselves smarter and more noble in their eyes and that of those around them and whose actions only fail because of outside influences, not personal choices and every time they do something good they get annoyed if they don't receive appreciation for it and every time they do something bad they talk about like it was the circumstances that made them do it, it wasn't 'who they really are.' as if some shadow possessed them and made them do it and you realize that you probably do the same things and just don't realize it.

Always trying to find some meaning in life and to come to terms with the fact that we are literally the center of our own perceptual universe we tell ourselves that we must be important in some way, exceptional. We are 1 in a million, or a least a good cut above average. People who like what we like are smart and worthwhile, people who disagree with us are so obviously dumb it is hard to believe people so stupid actually exist. But even when we are down in the dumps we are special, our suffering exceptionally bad, our worthlessness note worthy.

On some level we cannot accept that we are just another silly human among other silly humans who are just trying to make it through their rough day with some sense of self worth and dignity and that if we would abandon our personal pride and focus on nurturing each other and celebrating our collective weakness and how we can all share in that and be real and loving with each other instead of constantly defending our egos the world genuinely could become an amazing place.

Why do we always focus on the past and the future? No matter how glorious or painful our past we cannot truly revisit it, nor celebrate the good times again or fix those truly horrible moments in life, no matter how often we visits the ghosts of the past.

Why do we always dream of things to come and how it will always be better at some point in the future, or perhaps how nothing has ever worked out for us and nothing ever will.

Tell me friends, what if we all just acknowledged each other as true equals? Because no matter much our many differing traits divide us we are ultimately and truly bound to each other as fellow human beings, and each of us is worthy and deserving of love and respect for the special, unique iteration we all are of that same human experience.

What if instead of living in the past or future we stay present in this moment, as this very moment is the only moment we are ever truly alive in and focus on making the people around us know how special and worthwhile they are. Moment by moment enjoying all the joyous fruits of this life while we can and loving those around us to the fullest extent of our abilities so that when we meet death we may die with not a shred of regret tainting our hearts, for we have lived this life to its fullest!

Of course, there is no way we could get everyone together on something like that, you know how much your fellow humans suck! I mean you know that you could do it, and easily but other people? Am I right?

There is a better way though, and much easier! Instead of doing all that hard stuff above why don't we simply put cats in charge? Cats always know what is best and if we just bow down before them...

Spoiler:
*Yuugasa wakes up in her chair and sees her cat banging away at her keyboard*

"Hey get off!"

*shoos away the cat and looks at the monitor*

"What the? What is this horse shit?"

*Throws a book at the cat*

"I told you you are not allowed to talk to humans anymore Mister Fluffykins! Go critique your own species somewhere you furry little a$~***&!"


Yuugasa wrote:
Shadow Knight 12 wrote:


In general, people become too emotionally attached to certain interpretations of the universe and how reality works because they cannot deal with uncertainty. The idea that we're simply molecules randomly colliding in the vacuum of space is too nihilistic for a lot of people to accept, so they cling to apophenia as a coping mechanism.

They see patterns and correlations beyond what the evidence supports and defend them because they are emotionally attached.

I think a great deal of human existence has to do simply with fighting against our own vulnerability, insignificance, and powerlessness, things which we are all acutely aware of on some level yet desperate to escape.

The main things we are inclined to do in life seem to be trying to take control of our circumstances, inflating our sense of self worth, and mulling over the past while working towards and dreaming about that time in the future 'where things will work out for me.'

Of course as time goes on you may start to realize that you can't control your circumstances or the people around you, even in situations where it really, really matters, and all you can effect is your own actions and I say effect, not control because as much as you like to think of yourself as a person who knows yourself well and controls your own decisions the more you pay attention you notice that you don't often have the reactions to things you would like to and sometimes your responses in stressful situations surprise even you.

And then you start noticing the billion little ways that the people around you are slowly rewriting the history of their life in subtle ways with every conversation you have with them, whitewashing history to make themselves smarter and more noble in their eyes and that of those around them and whose actions only fail because of outside influences, not personal choices and every time they do something good they get annoyed if they don't receive appreciation for it and every time they do something bad...

head explodes


Yuugasa wrote:
*snip*

I prefer to consider people on an individual basis rather than pass blanket judgments over the entire human species. :P


Back to Gaberlunzie's question about her observed correlation between neurodivergence and being LGBTQ...

Remember that anecdotes are not data.

From my perspective, I don't see any correlation at all. All of my friends who are LGBTQ are neurotypical. Of course, none of my current friends are neurodivergent, and all two of my prior neurodivergent friends were het/cis. (Or, that's how they identified at the time... I've lost touch with them.)

I think the "like attracts like" argument holds a good deal of weight. As much as I hate to admit it, I have found that maintaining friendships with neurodivergent people to be very challenging and requires a great deal of effort. It's just easier for me to be friends with other neurotypical people.

The only way to really tell if such a correlation exists would be to run a study. I am not aware of any that have been looking at this, but then again, I'm not a psychologist, and I'm not up on the contemporary literature.


Shadow Knight 12 wrote:
Yuugasa wrote:
*snip*
I prefer to consider people on an individual basis rather than pass blanket judgments over the entire human species. :P

That is because you do not possess the superior intellect of a feline mind! All you furless ones are the same! Now, I shall haughtily walk away from you with my tail raised in the air so you can clearly see my b+@! h*%~, to show you your place in the universal housecat sign of contempt!

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32

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Hey friends, I signed up to play a new 1st level trans dwarf cleric (maybe Rivethune, maybe not) for PFS next Friday, and I'm trying to decide on a deity. What are Golarion's most trans friendly gods, in y'all's opinion? Arshea is an option, but I don't know about the focus on sexuality for this character...


mechaPoet wrote:
Hey friends, I signed up to play a new 1st level trans dwarf cleric (maybe Rivethune, maybe not) for PFS next Friday, and I'm trying to decide on a deity. What are Golarion's most trans friendly gods, in y'all's opinion? Arshea is an option, but I don't know about the focus on sexuality for this character...

Probably not Erastil or Asmodeus! Other than that, I don't imagine that too many would have an issue with your character.

Irori could be an interesting option, since his dogma equates to finding the path to perfection by walking a road of truth and self-discovery. I would think that included the discovery of one's own identity, no?

I am probably just biased, because Irori is one of my favorite characters in Golarion's pantheon.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32

Ejrik the Norseman wrote:
mechaPoet wrote:
Hey friends, I signed up to play a new 1st level trans dwarf cleric (maybe Rivethune, maybe not) for PFS next Friday, and I'm trying to decide on a deity. What are Golarion's most trans friendly gods, in y'all's opinion? Arshea is an option, but I don't know about the focus on sexuality for this character...

Probably not Erastil or Asmodeus! Other than that, I don't imagine that too many would have an issue with your character.

Irori could be an interesting option, since his dogma equates to finding the path to perfection by walking a road of truth and self-discovery. I would think that included the discovery of one's own identity, no?

I am probably just biased, because Irori is one of my favorite characters in Golarion's pantheon.

I actually read an interesting post about how SKR's (I think?) sexist portrayal of Erastil in the Kingmaker AP's rundown on him is an error; which is to say, SKR interpreted this deity that he did not create in Kingmaker's second volume much differently than he was originally intended (I want to say that Erastil was first created by James Jacobs?). Erastil's focus on "family values" is supposed to be a genuine focus on community, rather than the conservative euphemism for heteronormative cis marriage.

That said, I still don't think Erastil will be the right deity for this character. I might look into Irori a little more...


What about Gozreh, he/she has many many facets :-)

Silver Crusade

Irori does seem like a good fit.

Most wouldn't have an issue, as Ejrik said. Some where there might be a more thematic tie:

I agree Irori would be an interesting choice, for the reasons mentioned above. Plus, you could be an Ouat, which I really enjoy.

Gozreh and Nethys both have big duality themes going, that might give you something areas to explore. Gozreh has male and female aspects, and the Gozreh chapter in Inner Sea Gods alternates pronouns.

In the same book, Shelyn's chapter talks about embracing your own beauty, and includes the line: "she shares mutual admiration with Arshea, whose message of freedom as beauty she finds a refreshing contrast to many mortals’ rigid views of physical aesthetics"

A whole bunch of Empyreal Lords could work, depending on the angle you want to take. I'd have to flip back through Chronicles of the Righteous for some specific suggestions.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Having done some research on this myself for characters, the above comments about Arshea, Gozreh, Irori, and Shelyn are solid options, but there other deities that one might consider:

*Cayden Cailean is a firm believer in the freedom of the individual, and the 'drunken' aspect could tie in to a less sober dwarf if that was a particular direction for development...

*Calistria would probably also be a bit too much on the sexual side, though there's also a vengeance aspect to her if the character was wronged in the past?

*Desna is a seeker of new experiences and traveler of life. She could fit quite well.

Falayna is an interesting case, depending on which gender your shaman identifies as?

Gorum won't care as long as it makes you a better fighter. Though, you'd have to have a character that wasn't hiding their situation but was somewhat more militant about it, as he's not keen on cowards.

Norgorber sounds like an odd choice, but if your cleric was closeted tightly, it would definitely be the sort of secret he could respect someone keeping, and also the hook by which he could control?

Sarenrae is the default 'good' Goddess, and she's portrayed as accepting pretty much anyone despite their faults unless they are EBIL, soo.

Zon-Kuthon wants pain and suffering. If your cleric has been struggling with this and it hurts a lot with no sense of reconciliation, that may be a nice draw to this particular deity. Kind of dark, though.

NOTE: This is just my take on things so far, opinions and mileage may vary, and by no means a comprehensive list. Hope this helps some?


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Rovagug wouldn't care either...


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Sissyl wrote:
Rovagug wouldn't care either...

I hesitated on Rovagug and Lamashtu, for the following reasoning...

Lamashtu: If a trans-person is not capable of reproducing, it is contrary to her desire to have more monsters in the world.

Argument could be made that someone who was truly desperate and willing to accept her madness might find her accepting in return, perhaps enough to confer some sort of blessing?

Rovagug: Rovagug wants to eat the world and everyone on it, so I don't see him caring at all.

This is a contrast to Gorum who WOULD care if the bottled-up anger and frustrations that a follower had to deal with made them a much tougher combatant, I think?

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These are all interesting takes on how a trans character could relate to a deity and their own gender, thanks for taking the time to share!

Falayna is tempting, and the only two things holding me back from that choice are that she seems more combat focused than I perhaps want to go, and that this is for PFS and I don't own the book she's in.

Shelyn is also one of my faves, but I already have a paladin who worships her, and I like to pay fairly different characters.

Because it's for PFS, I think it's wise to avoid worshipping evil deities, especially lawful evil ones. That said, Norgorber worshippers who focus on helping themselves and others maintain their closeted identifies - through any means necessary - sound pretty neat. I'm not sure how much of an issue that is in Golarion's canon, though.

I'll keep thinking about it and researching. If anything, at least this has helped me figure out what kind of relationship I want this character to have with her gender and deity.

Silver Crusade Contributor

I believe that you can worship Falayna without owning Chronicle of the Righteous, as long as you're not receiving any mechanical benefits. The combat-focused part is spot on, though.

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Kalindlara wrote:
I believe that you can worship Falayna without owning Chronicle of the Righteous, as long as you're not receiving any mechanical benefits. The combat-focused part is spot on, though.

True, but I'm specifically wanting to try out a cleric, so my mechanical benefits would be pretty much all of them. :-P

Silver Crusade Contributor

mechaPoet wrote:
Kalindlara wrote:
I believe that you can worship Falayna without owning Chronicle of the Righteous, as long as you're not receiving any mechanical benefits. The combat-focused part is spot on, though.
True, but I'm specifically wanting to try out a cleric, so my mechanical benefits would be pretty much all of them. :-P

Well, then. ^_^

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Inner Sea Gods should also qualify as a source for Falayna. I know buying a source just for one mechanical option is generally excessive, but for what it's worth both books have a lot of fantastic content (flavor, art, and crunch). I'd recommend picking one or both up eventually, if possible.

The role you see for Norgorber could be adapted a bit for a Calistrian that avoids the traditional sexualized role (though that role is certainly an option if you're comfortable with it), fighting for vengeance against oppressors. Doing it on behalf of less fortunate types could even be an angle for a CG one.

My Calistrian witch took that stance towards racism and oppression targeting half-orcs. He was however more indifferent to discrimination that didn't affect him directly...


I think you could probably pretty much any deity, given that they're always hungry for worshippers. I'd say that the far more important issue is what the church thinks about the issue.


Interesting discussion!

Sissyl wrote:


For ADHD, central stimulantia do work in a majority of cases, though certainly not all. They cause no damage, they can be taken out if they do not work, and the side effects are not damgerous.

Just wanted to point out, this depends a lot. I'm on methylphenidate (which is the default treatment here), and the list of side effects that are dangerous was quite long, and some where quite common. Potential side effects include psychosis, high blood pressure, irregular heart beat or even heart attacks, suicide attempts, liver failure and coma, difficulties to breathe, myocardial infraction, sudden death (yes, that's what it says as a side effect lol), and epileptic attacks.

Most of these are fairly rare (in the <1% or even <.01% category each) but with such a long slew of side effects, the amount of people who suffer from at least one of them is probably quite high. Before I was allowed to start on it they had to do stuff like take EKG's and similar.

I think some other substances like Straterra may have milder or less dangerous side effects, but it doesn't work nearly as well on most people. But, all in all, ADHD medicine isn't generally dangerous if one doesn't have other conditions, but it's dangerous enough that one shouldn't try it from their friend's pill bottle..

Silver Crusade

Arakhor wrote:
I think you could probably pretty much any deity, given that they're always hungry for worshippers. I'd say that the far more important issue is what the church thinks about the issue.

When it comes to what Deities and their churches think, regardless of fiction or RL, the church can bite me.


Adhd is one of the few diagnosis I have no regular exposure to.

Senior Editor

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Brief aside form this convo: I want to put in a plug for the 2015 Gay Romance Northwest Meet-Up, which has events in Seattle next Friday (Hugo House) and Saturday (Central Library, Hotel Monaco, Neighbors). It's for both readers and writers, and includes writers and stories with happy endings* that span the QUILTBAG spectrum. The Central Library portion of the programming costs $25, but is free to volunteers (I can put you in contact with the organizers); the other readings, the bookfair, and about everything else is free (except maybe the Banned Books drag show?).

Even if you can't attend, the lists of attending authors on the site may give you new people to read. :-)

* Apparently this is a requirement to be considered romance—the ending has to be happy, or at least happy for now.


WHY CAN'T YOU DO THESE THINGS IN THE NORTHEAST!!!!!!!!

More seriously, I hope you have a wonderful time.

What's wrong with happy endings?

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