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[...] the fact that I CAN practice my faith and religious ideals with out being charged with a crime or sent to jail is sancrosanct to me.
I think a big part of the problem is that a lot of crimes are not seen as crimes if they have a religious component behind them. If I go out and start shouting in the middle of the street, I might get charged with disturbing the peace or loitering (or whatever crime people get charged with when they make loud noises). However, if I'm shouting about religion, I get a free pass because of religious freedom. Similarly, people are allowed to harass strangers in the street or their homes if there's a religious reason behind it, and people are allowed to violate discrimination laws if they can justify it with religion.
An interesting exercise to do in one's daily life is to look at an overt display of religiousness and ask oneself "if I substitute this person's speech/writings with non-religious content, would this be a crime or a violation of social mores?" It's surprising how many times you answer "yes" to that. A lot of problems could easily be avoided if society was less inclined to allow religion to excuse certain behaviours.
Perhaps it's time to move the discussion of scouting to its own thread?
You are probably right. I AM excited by the news and hope it goes through.
I am also probably overly enthusiastic about Scouts/Boy Scouts in General.
It's not my faith, but I suppose Boy Scouts is one area which to me is almost of a religious quality (no it's not a religion, but of anything that is something I'd love to be heavily involved in currently, it would be Boy scouts).
So I probably could get carried away with talking about it in great depth and detail. Obviously, my biggest exposures are the units I was in when I was in Boy Scouts and the ones my kids are in now, along with some things at work occasionally.
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Yeah, will be at Gencon, but don't think I will have any free time to stop at that panels. :(
I understand that that there will me some Gaymer ribbons being distributed somewhere in the con. I would love to pick one up for my own Gencon badge.
There will be. If you can't find the guys handing them out try looking me up between sessions.
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I didn't see any details of anyone wanting to get together for Gencon.
I would love to organize a breakfast club for family members (all of you).If you are interested, and are an early bird, I plan on hitting Steak and Shake for breakfast several mornings.
I have to be at PFS HQ at 7:30, so this would mean a 6:00 am breakfast at Steak and Shake on Thurs/Friday/Sat/Sun.
I plan on being on a bus on Monday to leave Indi, but can also do breakfast that day also, but I can actually sleep in a little, but must make the greyhound bus station at 10:00am.
Who might be up to join me any of those days?
I also have to be at HQ at 7:30 on Thursday and Friday. I'll try to look you up Wed evening or just look for you Thursday morning. Look for the big guy in the cowboy hat.
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Interesting look inside an anti-LGBT rights religious planning conference.
It's pretty blatant about the "flip the script" tactic of calling LGBT activists and allies "bullies" to give moral cover to attempts to harass and discriminate against them.
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Interesting look inside an anti-LGBT rights religious planning conference.
It's pretty blatant about the "flip the script" tactic of calling LGBT activists and allies "bullies" to give moral cover to attempts to harass and discriminate against them.
This is inevitable. Dominant organisations get used to defining what is normal, and when such normality is challenged, they feel victimised. For them, the way things were done was Right and Normal, and these attempts to change the status quo are a cruel offence to them.
Things will change, in time, as new forms of normality displace the old ones.
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Interesting look inside an anti-LGBT rights religious planning conference.
It's pretty blatant about the "flip the script" tactic of calling LGBT activists and allies "bullies" to give moral cover to attempts to harass and discriminate against them.
my god.
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Interesting look inside an anti-LGBT rights religious planning conference.
It's pretty blatant about the "flip the script" tactic of calling LGBT activists and allies "bullies" to give moral cover to attempts to harass and discriminate against them.
This is inevitable. Dominant organisations get used to defining what is normal, and when such normality is challenged, they feel victimised. For them, the way things were done was Right and Normal, and these attempts to change the status quo are a cruel offence to them.
Things will change, in time, as new forms of normality displace the old ones.
It's just funny, in a sad sort of way, to see those exact planned strategies show up in places like these very boards.
My thoughts exactly. I'm increasingly having trouble as seeing it as anything other than intentionally disingenuous.
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My thoughts exactly. I'm increasingly having trouble as seeing it as anything other than intentionally disingenuous.
I've actually gotta strongly disagree with this. As Shadow Knight 12 notes, these people are (from their perspective) being attacked and are losing ground. They have less power than they did, and their ideas are widely decried as morally wrong or otherwise unacceptable.
From their perspective, they are being bullied.
This is only added to by the tendency of such people to participate primarily in discussions with those who already agree with them, creating something of an echo chamber effect and leading them to believe that their own ideas are far more widespread than they are. And if that's the case, they reason logically, many people must silently agree with them but be too scared of public censure to speak up.
So those people are clearly being bullied, too. That's not mostly true, but it's definitely part of their beliefs and the world view/narrative they subscribe to.
And finally, there's at least one level where they're right. There really are people on the left, especially on the internet, who bully people about all kinds of things, leaping on any perceived deviation from 'the right way to think' and accosting and threatening them in ways that are profoundly unpleasant and abusive. If you've been personally bullied by someone who supports gay rights, it becomes a lot easier to believe that there's a systematic pattern of such behavior going on, and one with a very specific agenda. Those who are most outspoken about their anti-LGBT beliefs are more likely to come in for this sort of thing, too (since even people who wouldn't normally engage in such behavior might be more inclined to do or accept others doing such things in what they perceive as retaliation), only reinforcing their own 'martyred for speaking the truth' victim narrative.
So many of the more outspoken among them likely have personally been attacked in unpleasant and unacceptable 'bullying' ways about their beliefs. Which is likely to make them much more inclined to believe that such things are the norm, and thus buy into the narrative/world view mentioned above. Heck, it even lets them point to evidence that such things happen, if done online or in some other venue with records.
With those three things working in concert, it's no wonder that many people with anti-LGBT beliefs feel under attack. And, indeed, they are under attack, and losing. Being under attack just doesn't inherently make one the victim, any more than a genocidal dictator fighting a defensive war to keep his hold on his people is the victim.
They're not in the right on the issues. At all. Not for a second. And the power imbalance between many of them and most of the people on the left more inclined to use bullying tactics makes saying they've been 'bullied' a rather inaccurate statement in most (though almost certainly not all) cases. But they're almost certainly sincere in their beliefs when they say that's what's happening, and there's even an element of truth in their statements.
So, calling them disingenuous is inaccurate, and likely to lead to wrong conclusions about who most of these people are and why they do what they do. At least, that's my impression as someone who tries very hard to view both sides of the political spectrum objectively and has spent a bit of time looking at the echo chambers the extremes on both sides of the so-called 'culture wars' tend to live in.
Obviously, some people (especially organizers of events like this) are gonna be a bit more savvy and may indeed be behaving disingenuously, but the vast majority? No, they really believe it. And even the savvy folks are likely to at least partially buy their own propaganda.
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Yeah, sorry, I have a hard time believing that they genuinely can't see the difference between not being allowed to control other people's behavior and being bullied. I think that some of them may not see the difference between someone telling them what they just said was homophobic or bigoted, and being bullied, but I can't believe on the larger scale--on the legal scale--that they genuinely believe anti-discrimination laws and initiatives are bullying.
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Jessica, I'm related to many of these people who feel like the changes in modern society are an organized campaign to attack and belittle them. They truly do feel bullied because they can't understand how the rest of us have come to think this way. They remember when "nobody" thought the way we do because we were forced to be silent. The world they know turned out to be a lie and they turned out to be wrong. Few people can easily admit to being wrong.
They believe they are bullied because admitting that they're the actual bullies means admitting that they have personally been terribly cruel people for decades. That's a hellishly tough pill to swallow.
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On a happier subject, any of you looking to find a Gaymer ribbon at GenCon should check this facebook page. Jeff Sorensen and friends are responsible for the ribbons showing up every year and they have several Gaymer friendly events planned during GenCon; to include a Picnic in the Park right across the street from the Sagamore Ballroom on Friday at noon. There should be somebody with the ribbons availible at the picnic Friday if you don't find somebody giving them out on Thursday.
I will also see how many ribbons Jeff will give me to pass out to anybody playing Pathfinder (or running it) I can get.
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Jessica, I'm related to many of these people who feel like the changes in modern society are an organized campaign to attack and belittle them. They truly do feel bullied because they can't understand how the rest of us have come to think this way. They remember when "nobody" thought the way we do because we were forced to be silent. The world they know turned out to be a lie and they turned out to be wrong. Few people can easily admit to being wrong.
They believe they are bullied because admitting that they're the actual bullies means admitting that they have personally been terribly cruel people for decades. That's a hellishly tough pill to swallow.
Again, I get that they don't like it. I get why they wouldn't want to admit it.
I just don't believe that they actually believe that "I can't stop my neighbors from having sex"="I'm being bullied."
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US!!
You are the best!!
On a happier subject, any of you looking to find a Gaymer ribbon at GenCon should check this facebook page. Jeff Sorensen and friends are responsible for the ribbons showing up every year and they have several Gaymer friendly events planned during GenCon; to include a Picnic in the Park right across the street from the Sagamore Ballroom on Friday at noon. There should be somebody with the ribbons availible at the picnic Friday if you don't find somebody giving them out on Thursday.
I will also see how many ribbons Jeff will give me to pass out to anybody playing Pathfinder (or running it) I can get.
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I just don't believe that they actually believe that "I can't stop my neighbors from having sex"="I'm being bullied."
Its a group with a lot of practice in the "not letting us use the government as our own personal enforcement agency is discrimination" argument.
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US!!
You are the best!!
On a happier subject, any of you looking to find a Gaymer ribbon at GenCon should check this facebook page. Jeff Sorensen and friends are responsible for the ribbons showing up every year and they have several Gaymer friendly events planned during GenCon; to include a Picnic in the Park right across the street from the Sagamore Ballroom on Friday at noon. There should be somebody with the ribbons availible at the picnic Friday if you don't find somebody giving them out on Thursday.
I will also see how many ribbons Jeff will give me to pass out to anybody playing Pathfinder (or running it) I can get.
Jeff said to point to this link;
Tabletop Gaymer Resources Gen Con
And do note that Paizo is actually sponsoring one of the events that the Tabletop Gaymers are pushing. The Diversity in Gaming seminar on Saturday at 4. One more reason that Paizo rocks!
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Yeah, sorry, I have a hard time believing that they genuinely can't see the difference between not being allowed to control other people's behavior and being bullied. I think that some of them may not see the difference between someone telling them what they just said was homophobic or bigoted, and being bullied, but I can't believe on the larger scale--on the legal scale--that they genuinely believe anti-discrimination laws and initiatives are bullying.
Many of them think that homosexual behavior is fundamentally wrong and harmful on a profound level and that allowing it is deeply bad for both the people who do it and everyone around them. So...yeah, they do think that making that behavior more acceptable is bullying 'right-thinking' people who are merely trying to stop that immoral behavior.
They're wrong, of course, but it's a real attitude and needs to be understood to be combated properly.
To use an analogy:
What if the government suddenly passed legislation preventing, say, known drunk drivers from being prosecuted or discriminated against (like by having their license taken away, or being sent to AA) for their behavior? Would you be okay with that? Would it be acceptable that people doing something wrong were being told it was okay and you were suddenly treated as crazy and prejudiced for thinking that such behavior was morally wrong and harmful to both themselves and others?
Now, that's obviously not a good actual comparison as far as the behaviors go, given that drunk driving is actually deeply immoral for a host of reasons while being LGBT is not (and is debatably not even a behavior per se)...but it's an accurate summation of how many religiously homophobic people feel about homosexuality. They legitimately believe that it is both a morally wrong and deeply harmful behavior. Probably not as bad as drunk driving (depending on who you ask), but certainly in the same category of immoral, risky, and harmful behavior.
Given that belief, feeling that they're being attacked and bullied for a perfectly reasonable objection to immoral behavior is entirely understandable. Wrong, since the behavior isn't actually harmful, risky, or immoral, but understandable.
Additionally, many see it as a 'foot in the door' situation, and as an attack on their religious liberties. Those in that category think that they have a fundamental right and a religious duty to be bigoted and that legislation preventing this is actively immoral (for reasons gone into above) and a restriction of their ability to practice their faith on par with being told they can't legally donate money to their church any more or otherwise being forced not to practice important tenets of their religion (not being allowed to marry would, ironically, be a good example). And that since such a fundamental part of their religious belief is being outlawed, more such restrictions can and will inevitably follow.
And finally...as I noted, some of them really do get verbally attacked, not just get accusations of bigotry as such. Up to and including 'I'm gonna come to your house and murder you for what you just said' kinda attacked, and by people who are either LGBT or supporters. Whether that's bullying is a bit debatable, given power disparities involved, but it's certainly unpleasant and understandably makes them feel bullied. And feeling that way on a personal level is definitely gonna get them thinking in the right mindset to see people with the same attitudes applying them on a larger scale as a larger version of the same thing as the personal attacks on them.
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See, you're right and wrong at the same time.
Yeah, a majority do believe it, but they believe it not so much because of the bullies on the left, but because there's an organized propaganda campaign dedicated to making them believe it.
I wouldn't dream of arguing that organized propaganda campaigns don't play a part. They most certainly do, and I never intended to imply otherwise.
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And finally...as I noted, some of them really do get verbally attacked, not just get accusations of bigotry as such. Up to and including 'I'm gonna come to your house and murder you for what you just said' kinda attacked, and by people who are either LGBT or supporters. Whether that's bullying is a bit debatable, given power disparities involved, but it's certainly unpleasant and understandably makes them feel bullied. And feeling that way on a personal level is definitely gonna get them thinking in the right mindset to see people with the same attitudes applying them on a larger scale as a larger version of the same thing as the personal attacks on them.
Considering the threats, abuse, and bullying I went through growing up I'm not particularly sympathetic to the Religious Right on this subject. And what I experienced was very mild compared to too many people in our community. Members of our community are bullied until they commit suicide or are brutally attacked and killed on a regular basis. You don't hear about straight people committing suicide because a bunch of gay people harassed them for years; or gays setting up a straight person and leaving their dead body in a fence.
However, I agree that such behavior by people on our side is still not right. I just can't muster sympathy for the people that actually harm us anymore.
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Considering the threats, abuse, and bullying I went through growing up I'm not particularly sympathetic to the Religious Right on this subject. And what I experienced was very mild compared to too many people in our community. Members of our community are bullied until they commit suicide or are brutally attacked and killed on a regular basis. You don't hear about straight people committing suicide because a bunch of gay people harassed them for years; or gays setting up a straight person and leaving their dead body in a fence.
However, I agree that such behavior by people on our side is still not right. I just can't muster sympathy for the people that actually harm us anymore.
Entirely reasonable. I'm not especially sympathetic to homophobic people who get treated that way either (I'm admittedly more sympathetic to some other right wing people when they get attacked similarly), though as you note, such attacks remain wrong.
I'm not really trying to instill sympathy here, just point out the rationales behind their behavior and the reasons it's really not disingenuous per se.
One needs to understand how people view the world if one wants to change such viewpoints or properly combat them on the battlefield of ideas, after all.
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One needs to understand how people view the world if one wants to change such viewpoints or properly combat them on the battlefield of ideas, after all.
Not really.
First, I don't know that we need to "properly combat" homophobes on the "battlefield of ideas." I mean, what's the point? They've already lost everyone younger than the Boomers, and debate doesn't change people's minds. In fact, presenting people with facts that contradict a closely held belief actually makes them double down on the original belief.
The useful debates going on are between people who already agree that gay people deserve equal rights, but disagree about what that looks like or the best way to ensure it.
Plus, I disagree with your assessment of their beliefs. I've known plenty of people who oppose equal treatment for LGBT people. I have some in my family. Their religious/political beliefs, as far as I can tell, aren't the cause of their disgust--they're the rationalization of it.
They may not be entirely honest with themselves, either, but they are being disingenuous.
My thoughts exactly. I'm increasingly having trouble as seeing it as anything other than intentionally disingenuous.Interesting look inside an anti-LGBT rights religious planning conference.
It's pretty blatant about the "flip the script" tactic of calling LGBT activists and allies "bullies" to give moral cover to attempts to harass and discriminate against them.
This is inevitable. Dominant organisations get used to defining what is normal, and when such normality is challenged, they feel victimised. For them, the way things were done was Right and Normal, and these attempts to change the status quo are a cruel offence to them.
Things will change, in time, as new forms of normality displace the old ones.
It's just funny, in a sad sort of way, to see those exact planned strategies show up in places like these very boards.
It's definitely intentional on the part of the organizers at places like this conference. I think the vast majority of people repeating the lines are essentially innocent dupes. They hear the lies over and over again in churches and in media and believe them because that's what they hear. Propaganda works.
Save that link and point them at it when it comes up again. See if it can open some eyes.
I'm not so certain that's such a great idea. Just off the cuff I can actually rebuff some of the article and that's not even trying.
First off, the link is to media matters, which for very liberal people they can accept, but for the more moderate democrat towards the more center...David Brock's site is about as trustworthy as a conservative politically charged reporter such as Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, or O'Reilly.
Now there are those that use these types of politically charged sensationlists as the know all of be all...but for most...they roll their eyes, or take it with a grain of salt that there is some truth there, but it's exaggerated far beyond what is normal.
For example, that article takes the speech of ONE speaker and portrays it as if everyone else said the same thing (which they didn't). Furthermore they downplay the hatred towards Islam (people actually advocating the death of Muslims and how evil they all are is not all that insignificant and I'd say just as offensive, if not far more offensive) that was displayed at the conference (and touched upon probably just as often to some perspectives...inclusive of both topics being in the final speech of the conference).
The article itself is rife with words to build bias, and normally is considered rather poor reporting (certain terminology and wording you avoid, even if you ARE biased in your reporting, to avoid the appearance of bias...the article blatantly ignores that etiquette and uses half the items from the book of how not to write a biased article!).
I'm not arguing about the context of what you guys are discussing, just stating that using that link probably isn't going to convince anyone who wasn't convinced already due to the source, how it's written, and how it takes some of the items out of context.
For example, you'd think someone like me who is favorably towards these topics would be convinced, and the second mediamatters was listed as the source my eyebrows raised up...but didn't discount it. However, upon reading it...yeah...I looked into the matter a little bit more because it was obvious there was no way to get the real picture from that article...
If someone like me wasn't really convinced by it, and I'd actually be considered faaaaar way left (in my area where I live at least) by some...even though I'd say I'm more of a moderate...I highly doubt those to the right of me would take it even with the seriousness to even read it.
The propaganda campaign will continue, but it's fooling less people year after year.
well said.
And finally, there's at least one level where they're right. There really are people on the left, especially on the internet, who bully people about all kinds of things, leaping on any perceived deviation from 'the right way to think' and accosting and threatening them in ways that are profoundly unpleasant and abusive. If you've been personally bullied by someone who supports gay rights, it becomes a lot easier to believe that there's a systematic pattern of such behavior going on, and one with a very specific agenda. Those who are most outspoken about their anti-LGBT beliefs are more likely to come in for this sort of thing, too (since even people who wouldn't normally engage in such behavior might be more inclined to do or accept others doing such things in what they perceive as retaliation), only reinforcing their own 'martyred for speaking the truth' victim narrative.
So many of the more outspoken among them likely have personally been attacked in unpleasant and...
This isn't just true of conservatives. In many ways I suppose I'd be considered part of the LGBT movement (and to a degree directly involved with the legal actions pro-LGBT at times) and I've been directly attacked by what I would call these extremists in the LGBT movement. I consider them JUST as filled with hate (actually more) than any one else.
I personally dislike these people as they think they represent LGBT as a whole, but in truth are some of the worst opponents to the LGBT movement as they don't think about anything such as talk, negotiation, discussion, or anything else. They have a take it or leave it approach which broaches no differences from their almost strictly regimented ideals. Even if you are LGBT or in the movement, they will trash you, hate you, and do everything they can to destroy you if you deviate from their vision the slightest. If you are in legal, and are arguing for LGBT rights, and you agree to something in order to push equality forward that they feel doesn't push things their way...they'll do all sorts of terrible things to you and your family...And THAT'S TO THOSE WHO ACTUALLY ARE HELPING THEM!!!
HOWEVER...I believe these are an extremely SMALL minority (just like the KKK or Aryan nations do not represent everyone in the US at all). They just happen to have a VERY LOUD voice for a very small group.
A particular distaste I have is that many of this small minority agree with far right conservatives that LGBT cannot be religious (which is a ridiculous stance as most LGBT I know are religious in some way). They do not realize that EVERY TIME they attack ALL religion as bad, they are not just attacking those who might disagree with the LGBT rights, but also those who do as well as LGBT people themselves! This small group of extremists do not care, their hate is too strong and they do not care if they hurt the majority of LGBT that ARE religious in the process as long as they get their way. These ARE bullies just as much as any one else. However, I think most groups have their bullies and bad seeds, to expect some group to be exempt is probably a fool's errand.
However, I do find it offensive when people equate LGBT as atheists and those who are religious as NON-LGBT. I think that's a key way to find if someone is in that extremists minority or not, because they discount the 90% (IMO) of LGBT that ARE religious and put them down, call them names (if you simply try to state that it's religion and such...and call it names...you are lumping ALL those in religion including that 90% of LGBT) and basically hate them in the same manner that they say others hate the LGBT movement in general. Most of those among the LGBT movement and minority are normal people just like everyone else, and have just as diverse views and ideas. In fact, the only REAL thing that differentiates them is that they are LGBT...otherwise you have similar percenatages in everything (and in fact, you even have some LGBT that are far right conservatives...some that are far left liberals, and everything in between).
It's not a them vs. us mentality that should be had. It's an ALL of us are in this boat together...and we shouldn't be hating any particular group (well, that has LGBT folks in general) simply because of our own personal bias against it. The problem I see is people wanting to label others and as such ignore that the main focus is to have equality for all, keeping in mind that the LGBT minority is JUST as diverse as everyone else and to try to shoehorn them into some certain facet (such as far left atheist liberals) is just as big a mistake as those who persecute LGBT for religious ideas or thoughts.
THAT SAID...those at the particular conference in question are not exactly the epitome of good people. In fact, they had some rather hateful things to say, and many of the things they stated against LGBT, Muslims, and other minorities in the US are actually too awful to repeat.
I may not agree that the source used was a good one, but this conference was composed of people that have a very warped view of things and I wouldn't think defending them exactly a paramour thing to do. In fact, though media matters can be very biased, in this instance they didn't actually put down some of the REALLY distasteful things that were said and instead limited to some of the more mild commentary.
Even in the article there are things that are far worse and luckily no one in this thread has actually regurgitated that stuff and given them more attention to those particular quotes. These ARE folks that are sworn enemies of LGBT and many others as per their own ideas.
They are a minority of extreme ideas in and of themselves, and whilst there may be LGBT members among them, in some ways at least some of them probably feel a tad uncomfortable with the statements those people have expressed. There really is no defense I can think of in regards to that conference and what was expressed there.
And finally...as I noted, some of them really do get verbally attacked, not just get accusations of bigotry as such. Up to and including 'I'm gonna come to your house and murder you for what you just said' kinda attacked, and by people who are either LGBT or supporters. Whether that's bullying is a bit debatable, given power disparities involved, but it's certainly unpleasant and understandably makes them feel bullied. And feeling that way on a personal level is definitely gonna get them thinking in the right mindset to see people with the same attitudes applying them on a larger scale as a larger version of the same thing as the personal attacks on them.Considering the threats, abuse, and bullying I went through growing up I'm not particularly sympathetic to the Religious Right on this subject. And what I experienced was very mild compared to too many people in our community. Members of our community are bullied until they commit suicide or are brutally attacked and killed on a regular basis. You don't hear about straight people committing suicide because a bunch of gay people harassed them for years; or gays setting up a straight person and leaving their dead body in a fence.
However, I agree that such behavior by people on our side is still not right. I just can't muster sympathy for the people that actually harm us anymore.
I have had death threats and attempts at murdering me. I've been run out of town, and all sorts of other discriminatory practices (edit: And as an Aside...from that experience I still support Paizo, but don't really see them as the epitome of diversity or equal rights that some proclaim here).
HOWEVER, who are you against, the people that were at that conference spewing hatred and those like them, or anyone (including LGBT even) who are on the religious right?
I'd like to point out, that being for LGBT equality is NOT the same as a religious terminology or religious item. It is true (IMO) that those who are on the religious right are more likely to be Anti-LGBT, but to equate all of those (inclusive, once again of even the LGBT minority that is in that group) on the religious right are anti-LGBT is what I believe is a fallacy and in some ways expressing someone's own bias and hatred of a group rather than any expression or desire to help ALL (or even ALL those in the LGBT minority).
LGBT does NOT equal any type of religious ideology or faith. It represents something else that though some of those who ARE religious equate it with religious bias or discrimination, does not necessarily actually have anything to do with what religion you are.
Now, not necessarily those who argue against the religious right (even with many LGBT being religious, I have my own opinion that not a LOT of them are in that religious right...but I have no statistics on that), but those who argue against religion and say all sorts of bad things about it in this thread...how do you think that makes someone who is deeply religious and part of that LGBT movement feel?
Do you really think your hatred of religion makes it right for you to discriminate against LGBT folks who also are religious?
I think that's something to also consider.
YOu do realize that some of the greatest heroes (at least for some) of the LGBT movement who were sick of some of the discrimination they were receiving in their own churches, went out and created their own church which is extremely accepting (in fact focused on in some people's minds) of LGBT and any of those who are of any minority? (It's a Christian religion on top of that, I believe with it's central headquarters in California).
Ironically, depending on who you talk to, some would deny it's Christian, whilst others might actually place it on the Religious Right as well (they are very focused on the teachings of Christ and how the Bible applies to those who are LGBT and their daily lives).
Edit: That said, and just to make it clear, I absolutely agree it is almost impossible to feel any sympathy towards those that want to kill you or wanted you dead. I don't think you need to try to find that in your heart to forgive (unless of course you are part a Christian sect that tries to teach that you should) or accept anyone who is like that or feels like that.
I feel you are completely justified to feel that way, but perhaps lumping everyone from a particular group as those who are the same people who did that to you may not be particularly correct or right...which is all I'm trying to point out. I'm just long winded.
And from what I've seen, the way to change their viewpoints isn't to debate them or argue with them or anything like that. It's to let them meet different people and see that they're not monsters. Debate might change minds, sometimes. Finding out that their sweet little niece is a lesbian or that the nice young man who lives down the street is gay works much better. Not always, but far more often.
Or, in this case, that gay marriage is legal and all the horrors they've been told to imagine don't happen. Just like they haven't happened in any of the states where it's already legal.
The propaganda campaign will continue, but it's fooling less people year after year.
That's an excellent point. I absolutely agree. Once people realize that people are basically the same in how diverse and normal others are...they find that except for one minor (and in truth, it really is minor) detail, they are exactly like everyone else that someone may consider like everyone else, they realize that any prejudice or discriminatory views are actually quite foolish.
There has been a little push to simply CALL it scouting instead of Boy Scouts, but they've yet to change it.Let's hope that doesn't happen.
A primarily male organization shouldn't get to monopolize the name "scouting."
What would Harper Lee think?!
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Now, not necessarily those who argue against the religious right (even with many LGBT being religious, I have my own opinion that not a LOT of them are in that religious right...but I have no statistics on that), but those who argue against religion and say all sorts of bad things about it in this thread...how do you think that makes someone who is deeply religious and part of that LGBT movement feel?
Based on your post, I would gather that your religion is very important to you and you find it to be a good influence on you (and perhaps your children/family.)
Many people do not feel that same way, and most LGBT people have more cause than most to have animosity in their hearts for certain religious organizations in America.
I can't even imagine what it would feel like to know there are "holy" men standing in a building telling all of the people that are gathered there that I'm an evil sinner because of the way I was born.
You seem to be implying that LGBT people should just shrug off all that hate and try to find the those who ally with those organizations, but don't believe exactly what those organizations espouse. That's a tough pill to swallow.
It kind of reminds me of the story of the guy that saves a girl from being raped, and then she says thanks and goes home, and he thinks "That's it? Maybe next time I won't bother." As if he is owed something because he did the right thing.
If you feel like you (or your religious organization) are owed something because you're doing the right thing (supporting equality for everyone), then I would suggest that you're mistaken.
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Oh that's going to be a legal firestorm.
Awesome news though. Interesting to see if it holds up to review.
I don't think it will pass the higher courts. I can see them saying that sex =/= sexual orientation. I also agree with that interpretation. My sex does not determine my orientation. I can see them saying that the language needs to be clearer. I also want the language to specifically state that you cannot be fired for your sexual orientation. We can't have the law be that vague.
One thing that would certainly help is if someone was fired for being straight. That would be amazing. It would send the message that LGBT folks have been saying all along: it isn't right to be fired based on your orientation.
I can see the law protecting transgender folks. I can see the courts saying that, for the purposes of the law, gender identity and sex are the same thing.
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Now, not necessarily those who argue against the religious right (even with many LGBT being religious, I have my own opinion that not a LOT of them are in that religious right...but I have no statistics on that), but those who argue against religion and say all sorts of bad things about it in this thread...how do you think that makes someone who is deeply religious and part of that LGBT movement feel?Based on your post, I would gather that your religion is very important to you and you find it to be a good influence on you (and perhaps your children/family.)
Many people do not feel that same way, and most LGBT people have more cause than most to have animosity in their hearts for certain religious organizations in America.
I can't even imagine what it would feel like to know there are "holy" men standing in a building telling all of the people that are gathered there that I'm an evil sinner because of the way I was born.
You seem to be implying that LGBT people should just shrug off all that hate and try to find the those who ally with those organizations, but don't believe exactly what those organizations espouse. That's a tough pill to swallow.
It kind of reminds me of the story of the guy that saves a girl from being raped, and then she says thanks and goes home, and he thinks "That's it? Maybe next time I won't bother." As if he is owed something because he did the right thing.
If you feel like you (or your religious organization) are owed something because you're doing the right thing (supporting equality for everyone), then I would suggest that you're mistaken.
What makes you think you aren't talking to someone who is LGBTI right now?
What makes you think I don't understand discrimination with very intimate details.
Why would you think I do NOT know what it feels like to have someone tell me about the evils I am participating in (and for your information, I actually get that discrimination almost daily...thank you very much)? It's enough that I am VERY careful of who I talk to and what I do where I live currently in order to avoid as much discrimination as possible. However, it can be rather blatant.
What I'm saying, is there is a VERY screwed up view of LGBT minorities in equating that they have to be atheist or agnostic and that it's okay to criticize all religion because of that.
In truth, there is VERY LITTLE that is different between LGBT and others. It boils down to some differences such as orientation or gender, but overall, they are NORMAL AND EVERYDAY PEOPLE. This means that there are MANY who are religious.
When one insults religions because they feel LGBT cannot possibly be religious, and thereby insults something that may be very near and dear to the LGBT minority, or many of them...who exactly is this person insulting. Certainly NOT necessarily the opponents of LGBT, as they are insulting many in the LGBT minority by default. In fact, in that light, they are basically insulting LGBT among many others simply for reasons OTHER than promoting LGBT equality or rights.
You are correct to a degree. FAITH is a VERY important matter to me. Because of that, it appears that you have made some judgements about me, assumed things about me, and decided what or what I may or may not know.
I agree that there are many on the religious right that USE that as an EXCUSE for discrimination, however, to lump everyone in with one group one may dislike for other reasons (many times personal) is not an excuse to spread hate in that manner either.
I know many LGBT folks that also have faith as a VERY important aspect in their life. I know Mormons, Catholics, Baptists, all who are LGBT. I think in many instances they would be labeled as being part of the religious right. That does not necessarily reflect what their politics are, but are you going to lump them in and insult their faith as LGBT simply because they have some sort of religion in that way?
I understand that MANY have been mistreated by others in some rather conservative religions (that includes Islam and non-Christian religions also). I also understand how that can make people VERY angry. This creates a tendency to lash out and blame EVERYONE they perceive to be part of that group or religion as part of the problem...even if that is not the reality.
The problem IS PEOPLE and their interpretations of things. I think many look at some of the leadership in the religious right, and apply that line of thinking in regards to EVERYONE. However, even that is flawed, for example, the SBC is a leadership role of the Southern Baptists, but they do not dictate the religion to every Southern Baptist church. In fact, they have even disassociated Southern Baptist churches from themselves (as they recently did to southern California) on disagreement. Yet, those very Southern Baptists churches would still be considered part of the Religious Right in most instances.
What more bothersome than accusations against the religious right for me however, (and in many instances, the LEADERSHIP of many of the religious right and their churches ARE very opposed to LGBT equality of any sort) are accusations which lump ALL religion as a single entity and make all sorts of accusations against it. They do not care that by doing so they are also discriminating against LGBT individuals who also are religious themselves.
It seems odd that this VERY SMALL (IMO again) segment of LGBT rights would actually persecute and discriminate against LGBT individuals, but unfortunately...I see it happens with almost careless abandon.
I am not here to promote my faith or religion, merely to say one shouldn't cast discriminatory remarks about anyone without careful forethought about what they are stating, especially in regards to religion and statements to it. LGBT individuals are extremely diverse in belief, attitude, action, and activities. To try to lump them into one group merely because they share one single minor thing (orientation, or gender, or other items) together I feel is a mistake that is commonly made by many (those who are against LGBT equality, but also the extremists who claim they are for it, but are more than willing to discriminate or persecute anyone who they don't agree with including other LGBT individuals).
That said, once again, I AM NOT pushing a faith or religion, but I think that there are many heroes among the religious LGBT individuals...one of whom (despite some recent controversy) I'll post a link to their biography below.
and in case you are interested, there is even a database of over 7500 churches that support LGBT rights (at least that's what they state) in a database for help finding a church if one needs it...here
And I'll stop there because I really am not trying to promote religion, so much as to say that LGBT individuals are just like everyone else and have just as diverse interests as anyone else, and that also extends towards their religious preferences. We should be sure that we aren't necessarily discriminating against LGBT individuals in our own personal crusades against those who we feel have hurt or injured us in the past.
Oh that's going to be a legal firestorm.
Awesome news though. Interesting to see if it holds up to review.
I don't think it will pass the higher courts. I can see them saying that sex =/= sexual orientation. I also agree with that interpretation. My sex does not determine my orientation. I can see them saying that the language needs to be clearer. I also want the language to specifically state that you cannot be fired for your sexual orientation. We can't have the law be that vague.
One thing that would certainly help is if someone was fired for being straight. That would be amazing. It would send the message that LGBT folks have been saying all along: it isn't right to be fired based on your orientation.
I can see the law protecting transgender folks. I can see the courts saying that, for the purposes of the law, gender identity and sex are the same thing.
I think (or perhaps it's more hope than a solid legal backing) it will. It may include a rather strange looping of legal language and regulation, but I feel there's a good chance (especially with the current climate in the nation) that this will stand.
I don't see why it matters what one's orientation or gender is in regards to employment, it should rather be whether they can do the job well or not.
In regards to this interpretation of the EEOC, what's remarkable is that in this instance, if it holds, it is RETROACTIVE!
That means, unlike new laws that are enacted, actions that have taken place previously that have not passed the statute of limitations, can be taken up (in my interpretation of course).
That can be pretty big.
Obviously I don't know and cannot tell at this point, but if there are challenges to this, I think it may come from that direction. There are many cases of this type of discrimination that, if we can use this as a retroactive interpretation, could bring justice to those that have been wronged.
It's very possible in this scenario, that these cases would be appealed until they hit the higher courts.
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As this is the LGBT Gamer Community Thread, maybe we could take the "What About the Poor Oppressed Religions?" discussion and Devil's advocating to another thread?* It doesn't seem like it's helping build community here.
(* IANAModerator, so just my two coppers.)
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As a former political activist from the 89s and 90s, and former Pride activity organizer, I can attest that most of our more vocal LGBT groups are faith based groups.
A large number of our float and booths at our pride events are organized and run by religious based organizations.
Our two largest volunteer groups at our LA pride festival and parade were from the local International Imperial Court Systems and from our local MCC (and associated church organizations), and from local AA organizations (which are heavily faith based).
Being LGBT does not mean that one has to give up faith in a higher power, but to honor the fact that most books of faith are based on love, rather than punishment.
I believe that many examples of this faith is what has helped the middle of the road faiths to embrace their LGBT communities that exist whith their own ranks.
These groups would volunteer with our LA Pride festival as a way to raise funds, and place those funds back into the local groups in need (whether that was for homeless youths, for LGBT soup kitchens & Pantries), and for many other activities that you would expect from charitable organizations. Of course this was the prime time of the AIDS crisis, and many funds and support were funneled toward fighting that crisis.
Originally CSW/LA had purchased a house to turn it into a retirement home for the LGBT community. But due to the overwhelming crisis of AIDS, the house was turned into a hospice for those suffering from that plague.
I have to say, that living through that time truly showed me the heart and faith that exists in humanity. I worked with several Pastors and Rabbi on committee within the community at that time. They are active in our community.
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Guys, take the religious chatter elsewhere. It does not belong in this thread.
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(* IANAModerator
Wait, but you told m—I WANT MY TEN BUCKS BACK!
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Not really.
First, I don't know that we need to "properly combat" homophobes on the "battlefield of ideas." I mean, what's the point? They've already lost everyone younger than the Boomers, and debate doesn't change people's minds. In fact, presenting people with facts that contradict a closely held belief actually makes them double down on the original belief.
Combat on the battlefield of ideas is primarily a spectator sport. It's not generally about convincing the particular person you're arguing with, but those witnessing the argument. And if you don't understand and impute untrue motives to the people you debate, you lose legitimacy even among those who otherwise agree with your major points.
I also think you're overly optimistic about 'anyone younger than baby boomers' being accepting. I'm under 30 and have met plenty of people my own age or younger who are pretty homophobic. I think you may be making unfounded assumptions about the opinions of everyone due to living in a primarily liberal community. I'd likely do the same, as I live in one as well...but I've lived in conservative communities as well. They're a very different place. I still remember being the only person in the room at a college event who believed in evolution...
There's certainly a majority support for LGBT rights in the younger generations, but it's not anywhere close to a consensus, and given the tendency of people of particular political ideologies to cluster, there are whole states where it's likely the minority.
And such clustering is actually part of the problem. If you and others casually dismiss one whole side of the argument as lying when it's clearly not as simple as all that, that actually increases that side's perceived legitimacy in the eyes of those who have dealt with it previously, and only widens the cultural divides between the different sides of the issue, which causes real problems in the long term, such as with the children of those people. Even if you hate your father and disagree with him utterly, if you know him to be honest as the day is long, it's hard to side with people who say he's not only wrong, but lying. Especially if the implication is that he's lying with a sinister agenda.
Assuming the opposition is arguing in bad faith when you lack evidence of such, while often true, is not a spectacularly useful assumption in debate, as those who already agree with you might agree with the accusation, but it'll alienate a very high percentage of people who don't agree or are neutral on the issue.
And refusing to understand the other side of the issue is a great way to 'Other' them and stop thinking of them as complex people with both good and bad points, which leads to all sorts of badness on a grand scale. I'm sure you personally wouldn't do this, but it's one of the major consequences of widely accepting the idea of not needing to understand the opposition. And one I'm really concerned about in our culture as a whole, and thus feel the need to argue against. I believe that it's vital we not lose sight of the basic humanity of our opponents and dismissing them as pointlessly malevolent without considering how and why they believe as they do is a great way to lose sight of that.
The useful debates going on are between people who already agree that gay people deserve equal rights, but disagree about what that looks like or the best way to ensure it.
Those debates are certainly more productive, yes. Debates with people with really abhorrent views are more preventative than anything. Their purpose is to prevent people from believing that the abhorrent view is normal or acceptable, and to single out reasons why it isn't legitimate. In short, to keep people who observe the debate for falling for the aforementioned propaganda.
That's not progress as much as it is damage control, but it's still a good idea.
Plus, I disagree with your assessment of their beliefs. I've known plenty of people who oppose equal treatment for LGBT people. I have some in my family. Their religious/political beliefs, as far as I can tell, aren't the cause of their disgust--they're the rationalization of it.
They may not be entirely honest with themselves, either, but they are being disingenuous.
That's...not how the term 'disingenuous' is used in general discourse. It's used almost exclusively for intentional dishonesty, not merely lying to yourself. I mean, I agree that a whole lot of the attitude taken by most homophobes is pure rationalization, but that doesn't make it disingenuous in that term's normal usage.
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And from what I've seen, the way to change their viewpoints isn't to debate them or argue with them or anything like that. It's to let them meet different people and see that they're not monsters. Debate might change minds, sometimes. Finding out that their sweet little niece is a lesbian or that the nice young man who lives down the street is gay works much better. Not always, but far more often.
Or, in this case, that gay marriage is legal and all the horrors they've been told to imagine don't happen. Just like they haven't happened in any of the states where it's already legal.
The propaganda campaign will continue, but it's fooling less people year after year.
This is absolutely true. Debate is a much less effective tactic than this one. Of course, this one can be a bit hard to orchestrate, especially on a wide scale.
Basically, I see no reason why this strategy and debate are mutually exclusive.
Ooh. That's really neat!
Go EEOC! :)
And yeah, as thejeff notes, the logic seems to be that if you're even paying attention to what gender they are in regards to their partner you're discriminating. So a company might be able to fire anyone who dated women, but if you only fire women who do it, that's clearly gender discrimination.
I have no idea if it will stand up either, but it should be interesting to see.
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I also think you're overly optimistic about 'anyone younger than baby boomers' being accepting. I'm under 30 and have met plenty of people my own age or younger who are pretty homophobic. I think you may be making unfounded assumptions about the opinions of everyone due to living in a primarily liberal community. I'd likely do the same, as I live in one as well...but I've lived in conservative communities as well. They're a very different place. I still remember being the only person in the room at a college event who believed in evolution...
Just want to highlight this. There are still plenty of places where homophobia is the norm, even among youg people, not because of disingenousness or deep-seated neuroses, but because that's just the only thing they've been exposed to. (Trust me -- the town I grew up in keeps *enthusiastically* re-electing Louie Gohmert to Congress. And it's not because they're all crazy.)
I think of this as good news, though -- what it really means is that there are still plenty more persuadable people out there.