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Just finished, it was rather bittersweet. Seems some of her family has issues with her while others are supportive(including Kanye West apparently) but over all it seems she is surviving.

Some of Diane Sawyer's questions and attitudes made me wince a bit, but ah, whatever.

This actually might be another good step forward in Trans* awareness and if nothing else, at least Bruce can now openly be who she always was.


Jessica half Orc Pistoliero wrote:
Yuugasa wrote:
Watching Bruce Jenner coming out as Transgender on ABC right now.

You must be east coast, its not on for another hour and a half here. I set the TIVO to record it and will watch it without commercials tomorrow. I am curious to see how far he spins his story and how much he reveils.

You have to admit, it is probably nice to have money and not have to worry about basic survival or how you are going to pay for treatments, surgeries, drugs, electrolysis as well as making your daily bills and survival.

I was cut off when going through transition by family and moved across the country to start a new life. There were many years when jobs were scarce or not what I wanted to do all my life.

But the love of a partner and perseverance pays off, and true family eventually will reconnect.

I wouldn't trade my life, nor my path for Bruce's Millions.

She was actually very open, though you could tell she was having a hard time of it.

Wealth helps with a million things but it is cold comfort in relationships, Bruce has to deal with a lot of the same things many of us have to deal with, though she is certainly insulated from some of the more life ruining financial effects.

Silver Crusade System Administrator

Parker Malloy has good things to say about the interview by and large. I am kind of surprised to hear her say positive things. I'm not sure I'm going to watch it.


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Ugh, why o why do I keep subjecting myself to reading any comments on LGBT news on any news network. It's always full of hateful remarks that get me down.


NBC? news, leading up to the Jenner interview, also did a series this week about trans kids. I only saw one of those segments, but it seemed okay.

It seems, at least at a superficial level, there is growing awareness of Trans issues than say 5 years ago, where in mainstream media I heard practically nothing.

Although working part time as a cashier right now at a grocery store, I have to say the tabloid headlines about Bruce Jenner have been pretty damn horrible.


Pardon a foreigner, but who is Bruce Jenner?


Kajehase wrote:
Pardon a foreigner, but who is Bruce Jenner?

She's a gold medal Olympian from years ago whose spent the last few decades as the patriarch of the Kardashian clan, a family that is very well known because they have a big reality TV show.

Silver Crusade

The Minis Maniac wrote:
Ugh, why o why do I keep subjecting myself to reading any comments on LGBT news on any news network. It's always full of hateful remarks that get me down.

Never read the comments.

That said, if I think back to the comments on news stories 12 years ago or so, I find that today the comment sections have the same bigotry, but it is more diluted by a greater quantity of positive comments. I can remember when there was no such thing as a positive comment on a story dealing with LGBT issues.

Of course, that's kind of like saying every turd has a silver lining...


Yuugasa wrote:
Kajehase wrote:
Pardon a foreigner, but who is Bruce Jenner?
She's a gold medal Olympian from years ago whose spent the last few decades as the patriarch of the Kardashian clan, a family that is very well known because they have a big reality TV show.

Oh, okay. Thanks for answering.


Kajehase wrote:
Yuugasa wrote:
Kajehase wrote:
Pardon a foreigner, but who is Bruce Jenner?
She's a gold medal Olympian from years ago whose spent the last few decades as the patriarch of the Kardashian clan, a family that is very well known because they have a big reality TV show.
Oh, okay. Thanks for answering.

No Problem=)


I thought it was pretty cool actually that Kanye West was the one to convince Kim Kardashian to accept Bruce as transgender. Maybe I shouldn't be surprised though, for all his ludicrous antics he has always been very honest and has expressed feelings of loneliness and isolation before.

Maybe there actually is a pretty deep person buried under all that nonsense and narcissistic ramblings=)


Lissa Guillet wrote:
Parker Malloy has good things to say about the interview by and large. I am kind of surprised to hear her say positive things. I'm not sure I'm going to watch it.

I found it surprisingly good myself.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32

Regarding that interview with Jenner, this article explains that she is no longer going by "Bruce," and that interview was the last time she would go by that name or go by "he" pronouns (which the article blatantly disregards).

So it's probably best to just call her Jenner for now. Perhaps B. Jenner?


Her experiences are surprising relateable too, from having the experience you guys were just talking about where just because you're a transwoman people think you must like men to thinking her father, though deceased, prolly wouldn't have accepted her, something I can relate to, seeing as the only reason my father doesn't literally throw me into the garbage Empire-style is because I am too big, lol.


mechaPoet wrote:

Regarding that interview with Jenner, this article explains that she is no longer going by "Bruce," and that interview was the last time she would go by that name or go by "he" pronouns (which the article blatantly disregards).

So it's probably best to just call her Jenner for now. Perhaps B. Jenner?

Aye, I've just been calling her Bruce until her new name is revealed, there is more than one B. Jenner.

Edit: She has sons named Brody, Brandon and Burt.


Lissa Guillet wrote:
Parker Malloy has good things to say about the interview by and large. I am kind of surprised to hear her say positive things. I'm not sure I'm going to watch it.

That's interesting. Malloy can be a pretty tough critic sometimes. If she's saying positive stuff, that seems like a good sign to me.

I'm sure I'll watch some of it in the next week or two.

Silver Crusade System Administrator

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I'm really kinda worried how this is going to play out on screen nationally over the next three years.


Lissa Guillet wrote:
I'm really kinda worried how this is going to play out on screen nationally over the next three years.

Are you talking about the show she is apparently going to be doing?

Silver Crusade System Administrator

Well Keeping up with the Kardasians got picked up for another 3 seasons in february. Is there another tv project she's doing?


Lissa Guillet wrote:
Well Keeping up with the Kardasians got picked up for another 3 seasons in february. Is there another tv project she's doing?

Can't remember the details but there was talk of her doing her own show that chronicles her transition, among other things.

Though if she's just on Keeping Up what are your concerns?


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Yuugasa wrote:

I thought it was pretty cool actually that Kanye West was the one to convince Kim Kardashian to accept Bruce as transgender. Maybe I shouldn't be surprised though, for all his ludicrous antics he has always been very honest and has expressed feelings of loneliness and isolation before.

Maybe there actually is a pretty deep person buried under all that nonsense and narcissistic ramblings=)

Kanye West is a slightly less talented, yet more egotistical Prince.

Silver Crusade System Administrator

Well, you know how she said she wasn't a spokesperson for trans people. Irregardless of her saying that, if every time she fumbles doing something feminine, wears a dress, doesn't wear a dress, does housework, has marital problems, has sex, gets plastic surgery, decides not to get plastic surgery, goes to the bathroom in public, then those actions reflect on all of us and have the potential to set us back to the springer years where we were considered a freakshow. We're making progress, we have rights in certain places and those rights could be easily eroded by bad public opinion.


I'm not a trans* person so I'm not really qualified to talk about such matters, but something I feel is worth mentioning is that having someone that the public can empathise with may be good. One good thing about reality TV is that it develops audience attachment to a person. In that way, being emotionally attached to a trans* person would be good for the general public.


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Shadow Knight 12 wrote:
I'm not a trans* person so I'm not really qualified to talk about such matters, but something I feel is worth mentioning is that having someone that the public can empathise with may be good. One good thing about reality TV is that it develops audience attachment to a person. In that way, being emotionally attached to a trans* person would be good for the general public.

Sometime it can, sometimes it seeks to turn real life into a circus where the audience is expected to laugh at the people, not with the people. Honestly I get Lissa's concerns because slight differences in editing and focus could easily make the show go either way. I can think of at least one recent TV show which used Trans people (indirectly) as part of the latter.


That's ultimately the problem with any real minority person being in the public eye though(as opposed to simply bringing the public in with fictional character representations in media)especially the first widely known ones of any group. People are flawed. Showing them in their daily lives on a reality show is prolly going to heighten the obviousness of that fact.

I'm actually ok with that personally though, I'd rather people see the struggles of a real person up close (even if that person is a rich celebrity)than to sugar coat and idealize everything.

Edit: wasn't clear who I was responding to I was responding to Lissa=)


Yes, I guess the editing part does make sense. I really hope this all turns out for the best though. :(


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Like Shadow Knight I can't speak for those in the trans* community, but my thoughts regarding Jenner's public transition and the associated media circus is this. At least she's the ringmaster rather than the sideshow freak she would have been if the paparazzi/tabloids had been the ones to break the story. This way, she's the one in the driver's seat and can try and steer this into a positive direction. Though the jury's still out on how successful the endeavour will be.

Either way this was bound to come to light. Being trans*, closeted or not, is obviously hard enough when you don't have the scrutiny of millions that celebrity brings. Maybe I'm giving her too much of the benefit of the doubt, only time will tell.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Vogue article on Andreja Pejic

Wow...

Silver Crusade System Administrator

HenshinFanatic wrote:

Like Shadow Knight I can't speak for those in the trans* community, but my thoughts regarding Jenner's public transition and the associated media circus is this. At least she's the ringmaster rather than the sideshow freak she would have been if the paparazzi/tabloids had been the ones to break the story. This way, she's the one in the driver's seat and can try and steer this into a positive direction. Though the jury's still out on how successful the endeavour will be.

Either way this was bound to come to light. Being trans*, closeted or not, is obviously hard enough when you don't have the scrutiny of millions that celebrity brings. Maybe I'm giving her too much of the benefit of the doubt, only time will tell.

Yes, and everything I've heard says that this particular interview was really decent and humanizing which is kinda a rare and definitely a good thing. But I don't expect that the tv show will be quite as humanizing. A lot of the famous family shows exagerrate and give people something to laugh at. I don't have a lot of faith to give as someone who has been really paying attention to this issue and how it's portrayed in the media for 30 years.


To be honest I just have so sympathy for the Transgender folks out there including Bruce Jenner. As a gay man it was hard enough without any gender identity issues, with the nightmare of my family. I can only imagine how it is for trans folks to know who they are deep down, and then to have to go through such a hard transition socially after coming out. Then physically over a number of years, and even after the transition still facing opposition. Being gay is hard enough I'm not sure I would have the inner strength you folks do.

Silver Crusade System Administrator

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Inner strength of survival really. Do what you have to do. A lot of the harder part, at least for me, was all the things I didn't understand. Physical change was, I don't want to say fun, but encouraging. The social bits for me were difficult but I worked it well. I gamed that system. Tactical coming out. =) And I was very lucky to have surrounded myself with a bunch of awesome people. There were some upsetting times, but I made it work. Most aren't quite that lucky. My mother was upset at first but, you know, this wasn't the first time our family has had to deal with glbt issues and come out well on the other side so she was primed. Socially, I was happier, more vivid, more outgoing. But the things I didn't know, didn't understand... that could fill volumes.

Anyway, everyone always says, you're so brave, and I just don't think that's true. I have a healthy survival instinct, really. That's it.


It's very much a matter of sink or swim, in a way. (Or at least, that's my experience of it.)

Silver Crusade

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The film Guess Who's Coming To Dinner was the first, high-profile, mainstream American film to deal with interracial marriage (that I know about, anyway).

Reading about the making of the film, the writers realised they had a dilemma. They knew that they wanted to portray interracial marriage in a positive light, and they knew that 'mainstream America' saw it negatively. 'Miscegenation' was seen as a crime.

In order to give Sidney Poitier's character a chance with that audience, he had to be a decent guy. More than decent, actually. Any character flaw, however sleight, could be the excuse why that audience thought that it was 'wrong' that this guy should marry that nice, well-brought-up, rich white girl.

So, although the writers knew that making the black guy be so saintly was unrealistic (for a guy of any colour), they felt that they had to make him so perfect that the only way to object to this black guy marrying that white girl was to admit that you were racist. It was hoped that since people like to think that they are 'good', then this would get them to examine their own attitudes to race, and that this would be a positive result for race relations in America.

The reason I'm blathering on about this film in the LGBT thread is that Jenner (insert new first name later) will be representing trans* people, like it or not. It will be the first experience of an actual trans* person for millions of Americans. Like it or not, if Jenner is seen in a negative light, then trans* people will be seen in a negative light.

So, ideally, Jenner should be seen to be a saint in human form.

I've never actually seen an episode of The Kardashians. Is it the kind of show where the stars are seen in their best light?


Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
I've never actually seen an episode of The Kardashians. Is it the kind of show where the stars are seen in their best light?

Hardly, though I haven't watching any episodes. My impression though was that Jenner was generally viewed positively based on the show. Was that because they were really a nice person or just in comparison to the other "characters" on the show? I can't say.


Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

The film Guess Who's Coming To Dinner was the first, high-profile, mainstream American film to deal with interracial marriage (that I know about, anyway).

Reading about the making of the film, the writers realised they had a dilemma. They knew that they wanted to portray interracial marriage in a positive light, and they knew that 'mainstream America' saw it negatively. 'Miscegenation' was seen as a crime.

In order to give Sidney Poitier's character a chance with that audience, he had to be a decent guy. More than decent, actually. Any character flaw, however sleight, could be the excuse why that audience thought that it was 'wrong' that this guy should marry that nice, well-brought-up, rich white girl.

So, although the writers knew that making the black guy be so saintly was unrealistic (for a guy of any colour), they felt that they had to make him so perfect that the only way to object to this black guy marrying that white girl was to admit that you were racist. It was hoped that since people like to think that they are 'good', then this would get them to examine their own attitudes to race, and that this would be a positive result for race relations in America.

The reason I'm blathering on about this film in the LGBT thread is that Jenner (insert new first name later) will be representing trans* people, like it or not. It will be the first experience of an actual trans* person for millions of Americans. Like it or not, if Jenner is seen in a negative light, then trans* people will be seen in a negative light.

So, ideally, Jenner should be seen to be a saint in human form.

I've never actually seen an episode of The Kardashians. Is it the kind of show where the stars are seen in their best light?

indeed. Gwct did as much harm to race relations as it did good.


Yuugasa wrote:
It occurs to me that perhaps it is human nature to be our own biggest critics, even if everyone else accepts us.

It's one of those things in life that's easy to know but hard to fully grasp, cause even when we have low self esteem, we're very self-centered creatures. We often go through life thinking everyone is judging us, and some people certainly are, but most are too busy worrying about everyone judging them to bother to pay much attention to us.


Freehold DM wrote:
Yuugasa wrote:

I thought it was pretty cool actually that Kanye West was the one to convince Kim Kardashian to accept Bruce as transgender. Maybe I shouldn't be surprised though, for all his ludicrous antics he has always been very honest and has expressed feelings of loneliness and isolation before.

Maybe there actually is a pretty deep person buried under all that nonsense and narcissistic ramblings=)

Kanye West is a slightly less talented, yet more egotistical Prince.

Prince is pretty egotistical... it's just more justified.

At live shows these days, he doesn't thank the crowd. He says "you're welcome".

Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

The film Guess Who's Coming To Dinner was the first, high-profile, mainstream American film to deal with interracial marriage (that I know about, anyway).

Giant (1956) it's about racism in Texas, segregation of Mexican-Americans, including miscegenation. While not perfect, it was good for it's time and fairly respectful overall. It does essentially "solve" the issue of racism though (for the main characters).

I read a take on movies of this sort that I really liked a couple months ago. The basic concept was that a lot of movies essentially show main characters going through changes, thereby relieving the audience of any responsibility of assessing their own behavior. In effect, a main character will undergo a change from jerk to nice guy, thereby solving the issues underlying that jerk-dom (in this case racism). Since the issue is solved for the main character, the audience can walk out feeling satisfied that the issue has come to resolution as well.

12 Years a Slave, for example, does not follow this model. The racist characters remain racist throughout, society doesn't change, the antagonist doesn't change, etc. The audience is not given a satisfactory resolution to the underlying causes of woe in the movie.

Another example comes from the Sopranos. A woman is raped, it's reported to the police and the man identified, but he gets out on a technicality. As the audience, we're kind of primed to root for him to get what's coming to him. We want the sympathetic character to get her revenge on her attacker. When she has an opportunity to tell Tony, you can feel the anticipation and know that if she tells him, the attacker will be brutally murdered. She doesn't tell him though, denying the audience that visceral satisfaction of revenge. Hopefully confronting the audience with their own primal desires. She isn't a vehicle of solving the issue and granting the audience release, but rather a mirror held up to us so that we can examine ourselves.

Not saying every movie about racism (or any other ism) needs to be done this way, but it'd be nice to see more stories that challenge the audience to consider themselves and not just give us our resolution and imply that the problem has gone away.


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Freehold DM wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

The film Guess Who's Coming To Dinner was the first, high-profile, mainstream American film to deal with interracial marriage (that I know about, anyway).

Reading about the making of the film, the writers realised they had a dilemma. They knew that they wanted to portray interracial marriage in a positive light, and they knew that 'mainstream America' saw it negatively. 'Miscegenation' was seen as a crime.

In order to give Sidney Poitier's character a chance with that audience, he had to be a decent guy. More than decent, actually. Any character flaw, however sleight, could be the excuse why that audience thought that it was 'wrong' that this guy should marry that nice, well-brought-up, rich white girl.

So, although the writers knew that making the black guy be so saintly was unrealistic (for a guy of any colour), they felt that they had to make him so perfect that the only way to object to this black guy marrying that white girl was to admit that you were racist. It was hoped that since people like to think that they are 'good', then this would get them to examine their own attitudes to race, and that this would be a positive result for race relations in America.

The reason I'm blathering on about this film in the LGBT thread is that Jenner (insert new first name later) will be representing trans* people, like it or not. It will be the first experience of an actual trans* person for millions of Americans. Like it or not, if Jenner is seen in a negative light, then trans* people will be seen in a negative light.

So, ideally, Jenner should be seen to be a saint in human form.

I've never actually seen an episode of The Kardashians. Is it the kind of show where the stars are seen in their best light?

indeed. Gwct did as much harm to race relations as it did good.

Freehold beat me to the punch=) That film really wasn't particularly helpful, if understandable.

There is a tendency to idealize a group that suffers from great prejudice as a kind of counter weight to all the unfair s+!# they've suffered, especially from a PR point of view(what with all that pesky perception being reality in our world).

While I certainly understand the idea the truth is there is more than one way to dehumanize someone, you can do it with severe devaluation but you can also do it with idealization.

I remember being on a panel of LGBTQ youths once and being asked a question from the crowd about what problems LGBT youths in my area suffered from beyond external threats and pressures and I honestly said that drug addiction was a problem for many as they struggled to deal with all the s+#% that had happened to them.

After the panel a group of the other folks that were on it with me approached me and said they were angry I brought that up, even though they knew it was true, but I just made the point that while we certainly aren't worse than anyone else we aren't magically better either, that's kinda the whole point actually, we are just human, like everyone else.


Irontruth wrote:
Yuugasa wrote:
It occurs to me that perhaps it is human nature to be our own biggest critics, even if everyone else accepts us.
It's one of those things in life that's easy to know but hard to fully grasp, cause even when we have low self esteem, we're very self-centered creatures. We often go through life thinking everyone is judging us, and some people certainly are, but most are too busy worrying about everyone judging them to bother to pay much attention to us.

Indeed, I know I personally have always been extremely self involved. ^_^


pres man wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
I've never actually seen an episode of The Kardashians. Is it the kind of show where the stars are seen in their best light?
Hardly, though I haven't watching any episodes. My impression though was that Jenner was generally viewed positively based on the show. Was that because they were really a nice person or just in comparison to the other "characters" on the show? I can't say.

She was always viewed as the voice of reason in a crazy house and a good father, though a bit of a hardass. In recent seasons though she has been suffering from depression(now we know why) and mostly just lying around watching TV and playing with her toy helicopters and hanging out with her bromance Jeff Dunham.

There was also this weird thing where Kris Jenner would buy more and more things and edge out the woman formerly known as Bruce from her own spaces by filling them with her crap.

Didn't make Bruce look bad though, it just made Kris look like a b*&@! and the kids encouraged their father to play pranks on Kris and helped him, some of which were damn funny.


Yuugasa wrote:
Irontruth wrote:
Yuugasa wrote:
It occurs to me that perhaps it is human nature to be our own biggest critics, even if everyone else accepts us.
It's one of those things in life that's easy to know but hard to fully grasp, cause even when we have low self esteem, we're very self-centered creatures. We often go through life thinking everyone is judging us, and some people certainly are, but most are too busy worrying about everyone judging them to bother to pay much attention to us.
Indeed, I know I personally have always been extremely self involved. ^_^

I remember jerky things I've done that happened over 20 years ago and tend to obsess over them. I imagine some of those people affected haven't thought about me once in the last 19 years.


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Different tack:

A couple years ago I met a transgender pastor. He's a pretty awesome guy and super nice. While I'm not religious and not normally prone to spread religious stuff around, figured he might be of interest.

his story

his ministry

An essay by him on his faith and issues in modern society

He's an interesting guy and while his faith is his lens to view the world, he doesn't expect or require it of others.


Irontruth wrote:
Yuugasa wrote:
Irontruth wrote:
Yuugasa wrote:
It occurs to me that perhaps it is human nature to be our own biggest critics, even if everyone else accepts us.
It's one of those things in life that's easy to know but hard to fully grasp, cause even when we have low self esteem, we're very self-centered creatures. We often go through life thinking everyone is judging us, and some people certainly are, but most are too busy worrying about everyone judging them to bother to pay much attention to us.
Indeed, I know I personally have always been extremely self involved. ^_^
I remember jerky things I've done that happened over 20 years ago and tend to obsess over them. I imagine some of those people affected haven't thought about me once in the last 19 years.

I hear you, as a sufferer of inappropriate guilt myself I can relate.

I'm also just a very anxious person in general, though I try not to let my anxiety damage my relationships with my fellow humans too much, though I'm not always successful. =/


Irontruth wrote:

Different tack:

A couple years ago I met a transgender pastor. He's a pretty awesome guy and super nice. While I'm not religious and not normally prone to spread religious stuff around, figured he might be of interest.

his story

his ministry

An essay by him on his faith and issues in modern society

He's an interesting guy and while his faith is his lens to view the world, he doesn't expect or require it of others.

Very cool. =)

Grand Lodge

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Irontruth wrote:
I remember jerky things I've done that happened over 20 years ago and tend to obsess over them. I imagine some of those people affected haven't thought about me once in the last 19 years.

I think a lot of people do this. I know I do.


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Actually, I kind of long for idealised LGBTQ+ characters being allowed to be heroic and larger than life, because I've seen a lot of "edgy flawed characters" lately and all it really does is make the character hard to relate to (which exacerbates the Othering problem) while simultaneously providing the cishet audience with a vehicle to explore the "seedy adventures of the LGBTQ+ character that cheats, manipulates, does drugs, is promiscuous, gets involved in crime and does all the sort of things that suburban cishet white people are typically far removed from."

It's one of the main reasons I haven't been able to keep watching the show How To Get Away With Murder, even though it was basically everything I've ever wanted to see in a TV show.

One day I might write an article or a thesis about it, but basically there's this "sanctity" of certain roles and tropes that marginalised groups are not allowed to be, which are reserved for the straight cis white male hero, and is basically the big reason why there are so few LGBTQ+ fictional role models.

Silver Crusade

The lead character in The 100 (a young woman called Clarke) was casually revealed as bi in the penultimate episode of season 2.

Any thought?

Liberty's Edge

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People are actually watching that?

Silver Crusade

Yeah, me. I'm hooked!


The first step to gaining acceptance is to get known at all. There is no way around this. Changing the resulting fearful attitude that results is the next step. Jenner can do the first job. Once the door is opened, there will be many others. Sum total I think it is a good thing.

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