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The LGBT Gamer Community Thread.


Gamer Talk

651 to 700 of 5,251 << first < prev | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | next > last >>

Andrew Tuttle wrote:

Hello Dogbladewarrior!

Dogbladewarrior wrote:
Ayep, np. As far as modern acronyms and political correctness go I’m always a bit behind the curve in most things it seems,

Yeah, peace. I'm going on nearly 50 years this life I'm living. I can certainly see how young-lings such as yourself have trouble keeping up. :D

I'm fine with acronyms between friends or professionals, but I don't do "political correctness."

I try to remember all my Queer and Questioning brothers and sisters and somewhere-in-betweens when I type "LGBTQ," just because I recall how much I've been hurt in the past when as a gay man I've heard folks say and type things causally like I didn't count or I don't matter.

So it's not political correctness, for me at least. It's more like extending a courtesy towards others I'd appreciate having extended towards me.

Kindergarten stuff. Be nice, share your toys, etc.

As I typed, I try to type "LGBTQ" when I remember to, because I remember being hurt when I didn't feel like I counted. :D

-- Andy

P.S.

Dogbladewarrior wrote:
I’ll prolly add a Q in my personal terminology from now on as my friends have recently started doing so as well.

Meh. Do it because you've thought about it and have a desire to do so.

Not because it's totally in fashion or all ur friends r doing it.

Or because someone TOLD you to.

That's just being "politically correct." hehe

I hear you, I guess for me it it boils down to having no real investment in tags at all so when using labels I just run with what is widely accepted and understood. With only a few exceptions I don't really exclude anyone from anything and people that know me in more than a passing way usually realize this so it's not typically a problem. Ultimately I normally deal with folks on a more individual level rather than a large group one so the importance of things like having up to date acronyms to be properly inclusive hasn't really fallen on me much but thank you for bringing it to my attention.


Judy Bauer wrote:
Andrew Tuttle wrote:
I try to remember all my Queer and Questioning brothers and sisters and somewhere-in-betweens when I type "LGBTQ," just because I recall how much I've been hurt in the past when as a gay man I've heard folks say and type things causally like I didn't count or I don't matter.

I've seen "QUILTBAG" bandied about recently as a maximally inclusive term with the advantage of actually being pronounceable (and the component terms even sound inclusive):

Q - Queer and/or Questioning
U - Undecided
I - Intersex
L - Lesbian
T - Transgender, Transexual
B - Bisexual
A - Asexual
G - Gay and/or Genderqueer

Hmmm that is super inclusive. It also has the advantage of sounding really nonthreatening. The QUILTBAG community sounds like something my grandma who is really into sewing would be a part of.


Judy Bauer wrote:
Andrew Tuttle wrote:
I try to remember all my Queer and Questioning brothers and sisters and somewhere-in-betweens when I type "LGBTQ," just because I recall how much I've been hurt in the past when as a gay man I've heard folks say and type things causally like I didn't count or I don't matter.

I've seen "QUILTBAG" bandied about recently as a maximally inclusive term with the advantage of actually being pronounceable (and the component terms even sound inclusive):

Q - Queer and/or Questioning
U - Undecided
I - Intersex
L - Lesbian
T - Transgender, Transexual
B - Bisexual
A - Asexual
G - Gay and/or Genderqueer

I've also heard QUILTBAGPIPE, which includes(I don't remember precisely):

P - Pansexual/Polysexual
I - Indeterminate
P - Polyamorous
E - Everyone

I personally like the E at the end.


5 people marked this as a favorite.

At a high level, sexual preferences are just that, preferences. Whether it is homo- or heterosexual, zoophilia or pedophilia, fetishism, sadism or necrophilia, you did not choose your orientation, and should never be judged on the basis of it. Ever. What you should be judged on is your actions - and for actions, consensuality is enough. This is easier than is seems, since only a living, sentient being of an appropriate age can give consent. Discussions may be had about the details, of course. Is an age of consent in a country of 15 criminal because age of consent is 18 somewhere else? However, at the core lies a distinction between preferences and actions. I repeat, your preferences do not in any way define your moral worth. Your actions do. If those actions are consensual, they too are morally neutral.

However, there is a thread of argument that says that homosexuals can't affiliate themselves with people of other sexualities, because of the backlash it could bring from fundamentalists. Claim that if you like, but understand that it is exactly the reason why many heterosexuals don't want to be affiliated with homosexuals. Regarding sexuality, we will either all be free, or none of us will. And supporting people's right to have a sexuality does in no way mean you have to condone actions taken due to that sexuality - unless those actions are consensual.


Sissyl wrote:

At a high level, sexual preferences are just that, preferences. Whether it is homo- or heterosexual, zoophilia or pedophilia, fetishism, sadism or necrophilia, you did not choose your orientation, and should never be judged on the basis of it. Ever. What you should be judged on is your actions - and for actions, consensuality is enough. This is easier than is seems, since only a living, sentient being of an appropriate age can give consent. Discussions may be had about the details, of course. Is an age of consent in a country of 15 criminal because age of consent is 18 somewhere else? However, at the core lies a distinction between preferences and actions. I repeat, your preferences do not in any way define your moral worth. Your actions do. If those actions are consensual, they too are morally neutral.

However, there is a thread of argument that says that homosexuals can't affiliate themselves with people of other sexualities, because of the backlash it could bring from fundamentalists. Claim that if you like, but understand that it is exactly the reason why many heterosexuals don't want to be affiliated with homosexuals. Regarding sexuality, we will either all be free, or none of us will. And supporting people's right to have a sexuality does in no way mean you have to condone actions taken due to that sexuality - unless those actions are consensual.

This is largely what I wanted to say earlier but couldn't find a way of articulating correctly. Thanks Sissyl for knowing how to speak words good.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Dogbladewarrior wrote:


I recently had a married guy try really hard to sell me on marriage to the point where not only was my answer of "I'm completely open to it." unacceptable it seemed like he wanted me to find someone to marry and marry them on the spot such was the emphasis he placed one it. The darnest thing was the more he talked about his own marriage the more it sounded like he was just completely miserable with it.

I understand trying to sell someone on something you love but if you are miserable why are you trying to push it on me, what is that?!?!

A bisexual friend has this problem with some fundies he knows who don't know about him. They're constantly on him about getting married. It's just what one does in the fundie lifecycle or something. Marry young and divorce at a rate slightly higher than the rest of the population. I suspect this is connected to the idea that you shouldn't have sex until you marry.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Meophist wrote:
Judy Bauer wrote:
Andrew Tuttle wrote:
I try to remember all my Queer and Questioning brothers and sisters and somewhere-in-betweens when I type "LGBTQ," just because I recall how much I've been hurt in the past when as a gay man I've heard folks say and type things causally like I didn't count or I don't matter.

I've seen "QUILTBAG" bandied about recently as a maximally inclusive term with the advantage of actually being pronounceable (and the component terms even sound inclusive):

Q - Queer and/or Questioning
U - Undecided
I - Intersex
L - Lesbian
T - Transgender, Transexual
B - Bisexual
A - Asexual
G - Gay and/or Genderqueer

I've also heard QUILTBAGPIPE, which includes(I don't remember precisely):

P - Pansexual/Polysexual
I - Indeterminate
P - Polyamorous
E - Everyone

I personally like the E at the end.

Uh...Where would I fall in this?


Dogbladewarrior wrote:
Drejk wrote:
Dogbladewarrior wrote:
I understand trying to sell someone on something you love but if you are miserable why are you trying to push it on me, what is that?!?!
Misery loves companionship?
That is a truism I hear often, but I'm honestly a little befuddled by it. Why would you try to make things worse if you have an opportunity to make them better? Doesn't make a lick of sense to me.

Neither is to me. Some people are spiteful and envious but others aren't doing it because of malice. I think that they are unable to see past their own experience and believe other ways are possible or acceptable (especially when it comes to lifestyles and religion) - maybe they can't accept possibility of existence of different but equal good options - they believe that if one is right (in their opinion) then all others must be wrong.


Freehold DM wrote:
Meophist wrote:
Judy Bauer wrote:
Andrew Tuttle wrote:
I try to remember all my Queer and Questioning brothers and sisters and somewhere-in-betweens when I type "LGBTQ," just because I recall how much I've been hurt in the past when as a gay man I've heard folks say and type things causally like I didn't count or I don't matter.

I've seen "QUILTBAG" bandied about recently as a maximally inclusive term with the advantage of actually being pronounceable (and the component terms even sound inclusive):

Q - Queer and/or Questioning
U - Undecided
I - Intersex
L - Lesbian
T - Transgender, Transexual
B - Bisexual
A - Asexual
G - Gay and/or Genderqueer

I've also heard QUILTBAGPIPE, which includes(I don't remember precisely):

P - Pansexual/Polysexual
I - Indeterminate
P - Polyamorous
E - Everyone

I personally like the E at the end.

Uh...Where would I fall in this?

...Sorry, I don't remember your orientation/sex/gender. I'm sure you fall under the E, however.


Uh..Okay. I'm not into guys, though, I prefer the company(and touch) of women.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber
Meophist wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
Meophist wrote:
Judy Bauer wrote:
Andrew Tuttle wrote:
I try to remember all my Queer and Questioning brothers and sisters and somewhere-in-betweens when I type "LGBTQ," just because I recall how much I've been hurt in the past when as a gay man I've heard folks say and type things causally like I didn't count or I don't matter.

I've seen "QUILTBAG" bandied about recently as a maximally inclusive term with the advantage of actually being pronounceable (and the component terms even sound inclusive):

Q - Queer and/or Questioning
U - Undecided
I - Intersex
L - Lesbian
T - Transgender, Transexual
B - Bisexual
A - Asexual
G - Gay and/or Genderqueer

I've also heard QUILTBAGPIPE, which includes(I don't remember precisely):

P - Pansexual/Polysexual
I - Indeterminate
P - Polyamorous
E - Everyone

I personally like the E at the end.

Uh...Where would I fall in this?
...Sorry, I don't remember your orientation/sex/gender. I'm sure you fall under the E, however.

Wouldn't the list then just have to consist of E? Unless it refers to being attracted to Everyone.


Freehold DM wrote:
Uh..Okay. I'm not into guys, though, I prefer the company(and touch) of women.

And you're... a guy? A girl? Male? Female? Intersex? Agendered? Polyamorous? Monoamorous? A-amorous? Questioning?

There's a lot of things you could be from that statement.

GentleGiant wrote:
Wouldn't the list then just have to consist of E? Unless it refers to being attracted to Everyone.

Sure, but this is more in the context of gender and sexuality issues. I kinda feel that everyone is involved, regardless of whether they're a minority or not.

Silver Crusade

Back in the early days, the gay and lesbian group at my university was known as GLBFA (The Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, and Friends Association). I like the F for Friends. Of course, that name dated back to the late 70s at my university, and excluded a lot of people. We changed the name to "Pride Network" which delightfully avoids trying to make a comprehensive list. That way lies madness.


Celestial Healer wrote:
Back in the early days, the gay and lesbian group at my university was known as GLBFA (The Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, and Friends Association). I like the F for Friends. Of course, that name dated back to the late 70s at my university, and excluded a lot of people. We changed the name to "Pride Network" which delightfully avoids trying to make a comprehensive list. That way lies madness.

Good thing I'm already mad then.

"And Friends" works well. I personally like "everyone". I find no real point in being exclusionary, as long as we can learn to love rather than hate.


Meophist wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
Uh..Okay. I'm not into guys, though, I prefer the company(and touch) of women.

And you're... a guy? A girl? Male? Female? Intersex? Agendered? Polyamorous? Monoamorous? A-amorous? Questioning?

There's a lot of things you could be from that statement.

GentleGiant wrote:
Wouldn't the list then just have to consist of E? Unless it refers to being attracted to Everyone.
Sure, but this is more in the context of gender and sexuality issues. I kinda feel that everyone is involved, regardless of whether they're a minority or not.

I thought I mentioned earlier I am a heterosexual black male.


Freehold DM wrote:
Meophist wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
Uh..Okay. I'm not into guys, though, I prefer the company(and touch) of women.

And you're... a guy? A girl? Male? Female? Intersex? Agendered? Polyamorous? Monoamorous? A-amorous? Questioning?

There's a lot of things you could be from that statement.

GentleGiant wrote:
Wouldn't the list then just have to consist of E? Unless it refers to being attracted to Everyone.
Sure, but this is more in the context of gender and sexuality issues. I kinda feel that everyone is involved, regardless of whether they're a minority or not.
I thought I mentioned earlier I am a heterosexual black male.

Maybe you did, I don't really keep track of this sort of thing. Generally speaking, I don't have much of a reason to care about any person's gender or sexuality. Exception being if I'm looking for a partner or something but that hasn't quite happened yet.

Either way, you can fall under "E". You're a person and that's a good thing.


Drejk wrote:
Neither is to me. Some people are spiteful and envious but others aren't doing it because of malice. I think that they are unable to see past their own experience and believe other ways are possible or acceptable (especially when it comes to lifestyles and religion) - maybe they can't accept possibility of existence of different but equal good options - they believe that if one is right (in their opinion) then all others must be wrong.

That’s true but in the end I’m not sure if that’s what was happening or if he was just trying to justify his own life with some kinda of sales pitch coping mechanism, like if he could sell his choices to me it would make more sense to himself or something. I didn’t really have a problem with it I was just confused.


Hey guys.

Anybody do anything interesting tonight?

It's been a while since the last post, so I thought I'd post something.

Osirion

Dogbladewarrior wrote:
Winterthorn wrote:


@Dogbladewarrior: you've said many times that thou art big and fetching... how about a pic? ;-) (Oh-oh, I'm gonna get in trouble now!! LOL)

Lol the amount of flirtyness I read into this brief request makes it hard not to respond too flirtly given how flirty I myself am, couple that with the fact that I have been talking a lot of sh!t about how big and handsome and strong I am and it would be unfair not to post a good pic…

…On the other hand being relatively new to the interwebz I have not yet decided for myself exactly how freely I want to splash personal identifying information all over the place, not sure yet even what I think of joining that Book of Faces my friends are trying to drag me into. –eyes narrow in suspicion-

Hmmm ok, how about this? There are many of you I’ve spoken to across these messageboards I’ve found to be deep and interesting people and wouldn’t mind being “internet buddies” with. How about we keep chatting here and there and when we get to the point we feel like we know each other pretty well and are friends we can exchange email addresses and then I’ll freely tell you all you want to know about me and send you pictures of myself, my friends, my habitats, and anything else you ask nicely for =D.

For those of you who have no interest in being my pal or who just can’t wait, here is a startlingly accurate artist’s depiction of me for you to enjoy instead!

"WRRRRROOOOAAARRRR!!!"

LMAO!! When one flirts one never knows what one will catch! Well played :^)

Edit: it was my friendly yank on the chain. Nonetheless I wonuldn't be surprised to see a call to folks to present themselves on FB. I am there already but I facebook -- apparently it's a verb now too -- 2 or 3 times a month because I have more interesting things to do with my life than to catch-up and respond to a gazillion inane comments a day. (I won't buy the stock!)

Osirion

Meophist wrote:

Hey guys.

Anybody do anything interesting tonight?

It's been a while since the last post, so I thought I'd post something.

I wish I could say. I spent over 8 hours pouring over the content of the D&D Next playtest and reading and reading peoples comments... I'm such a gaymer.

D&D Next looks very retro to me right now -- but it is only playtest material to date.

I'm about ready to call it a night, being 12:08 a.m. now. I'm thinking I'll watch a short flick or an episode or two of B5 before bed.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Winterthorn wrote:


"WRRRRROOOOAAARRRR!!!"

LMAO!! When one flirts one never knows what one will catch! Well played :^)

Edit: it was my friendly yank on the chain. Nonetheless I wonuldn't be surprised to see a call to folks to present themselves on FB. I am there already but I facebook -- apparently it's a verb now too -- 2 or 3 times a month because I have more interesting things to do with my life than to catch-up and respond to a gazillion inane...

Lol, I find the secret to good flirting is to be, well, flirty. If you offer the goods upfront where is the fun of the chase?

As far as facebook goes I have a whole bunch of people that really seem to want me to join but the more I learn the more I am just not interested at all. It’s seems to be a weird mix of the impersonal and the way too personal I just do not like at all. If someone wants to talk to me the can put in some good old fashion mild amount of effort in and call, text or email me instead of posting their graffiti on my wall! If they want to stalk me they should camp outside my house like a proper psycho!


Meophist wrote:

Hey guys.

Anybody do anything interesting tonight?

After waking up bright and early at the crack of noon I've been playing Skyrim off and on on a PS3, it's fun but I keep finding weird bugs that are forcing me to reload older saves.


Meh to Facebook, yay to Google+!

(ok, not really, G+ profile is just a side effect of me using gmail and google docs, I do use it just because I am already there).


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Drejk wrote:

Meh to Facebook, yay to Google+!

(ok, not really, G+ profile is just a side effect of me using gmail and google docs, I do use it just because I am already there).

I quit FB about the time G+ came out. Turned it back on by accident a few days ago so I figure I'll stick around for maybe a week again. I'm not really a social networker. I think I topped out at less than 20 friends on FB. Most of my actual use of the site ends up being the fact that a few friends serve as de facto news clippers. So really it's an adjunct to my RSS feeds. That and I play a crappy fantasy-themed flash game on G+.

Oh yeah and other stuff: presently still up from last night due to my lovely sinuses. I must have blown a pint of snot out so far today.


Resist the evil of facebook Dogbladewarrior! RESIST!!


Freehold DM wrote:
Resist the evil of facebook Dogbladewarrior! RESIST!!

I am trying, but it is a black hole of peer pressure and I've crossed the event horizon, save me Jebus!!!!


Samnell wrote:


Oh yeah and other stuff: presently still up from last night due to my lovely sinuses. I must have blown a pint of snot out so far today.

Yeah I dunno what my deal is but I haven't been sleeping well recently and have had like a low grade headache almost all the time. Folks keep asking if I want to go drink with them and no, I really really don't. I'm not a heavy drinker at the best of times and right now I think that's the last thing I need. O well, insomnia has it's perks, you can do alot with your day when you don't have that annoying eight hours of sleep holding you back.

Osirion

I have trouble sleeping too: was up until 3:30 a.m. I've always been a night owl, but since a big surgery last fall, my sleep is even more erratic -- and I have a job to hang on to!


Sleeping's a difficult thing for me as well. Don't really know why.


Winterthorn wrote:
I have trouble sleeping too: was up until 3:30 a.m. I've always been a night owl, but since a big surgery last fall, my sleep is even more erratic -- and I have a job to hang on to!

Yeah insomnia is that much worse when you have a specific daily schedule you really need to stick to and can't just let sleep come whenever it actually finds you. What kind of surgery did you have? (if that's not too personal to ask) I had a friend who had a hernia surgery at one point and went from sleeping like a baby to chronic insomnia for no real discernible reason for like a year after.


Meophist wrote:
Sleeping's a difficult thing for me as well. Don't really know why.

My own insomnia seems to come and go pretty randomly, don't know why either.


I remember having some surgery a long time ago, maybe that's the cause of my sleeping problems

On the other topic, I don't really use the social sites on the Internet.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Pawns Subscriber
Judy Bauer wrote:

I've seen "QUILTBAG" bandied about recently as a maximally inclusive term with the advantage of actually being pronounceable (and the component terms even sound inclusive):

Q - Queer and/or Questioning
U - Undecided
I - Intersex
L - Lesbian
T - Transgender, Transexual
B - Bisexual
A - Asexual
G - Gay and/or Genderqueer

Hello Judy.

Wowsa. I've never seen QUILTBAG before, but it does look like it'd be bandied about.

Starts off with QUILT. Quilt's a great word, and I like quilts. AIDS quilt (+), a bunch of old ladies in a quilting-bee (+).

Then again, "Quilt." (-)

AIDS (-), a gaggle of old ladies (-).

BAG, that's just ... hard.

I'm having trouble wrapping my head around the term "Bag" as part of an acronym I'd self-identify with or promote to others. (-).

So I'm not sold on this one, Judy.

You've heard it bandied about, do you use it? You self-identify as a "QUILTBAG," or tell those you love "Hey, it's okay to be a QUILTBAG?"

-- Andy


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Pawns Subscriber
Dogbladewarrior wrote:
The QUILTBAG community sounds like something my grandma who is really into sewing would be a part of.

hehe.

I can really see you sewing right alongside her, Dogbladewarrior.

Not that that's a bad thing. :D

-- Andy


I like the QUILTBAGPIPE concept, but I think Freehold DM may be treading around an important topic. When sexuality-based rights and support groups gather, from my experience, they tend to include a lot of the minority or "otherly" sexualities. I understand that those people who face the most consistent adversity are those who are different. I also wonder if this "misfits club" for lack of a better word, does not end up becoming less open and inclusive than it claims to be. Again, I like the concept, but I can say from personal experience that I have gone to pride centres and related events and experienced a lot of hostility for being an "outsider". Am I the only one who has had this experience?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Pawns Subscriber
Meophist wrote:

I've also heard QUILTBAGPIPE, which includes(I don't remember precisely):

P - Pansexual/Polysexual
I - Indeterminate
P - Polyamorous
E - Everyone

I personally like the E at the end.

LOL Dogbladewarrior!

(1) I've never heard "QUILTBAGPIPE" ... ever ... applied to human beings.

EVER. (Evah).

(2) The two P's are redundant (but then, you don't remember "precisely", so it's okay).

(3) Once you go "Everyone," the "LTGT(possibly Q) Community" might just decide "meh."

-- Andy


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Pawns Subscriber

Hey Sissyl. I'm sorry to quote you all over the place, but I would like to make a point / emphasize something.

Sissyl wrote:
At a high level, sexual preferences are just that, preferences.

Okay, I can agree. All human beings have "preferences."

Flavors they like. States or conditions they'd "choose" to be in, versus conditions they'd find less favorable or "choose not to be in."

I'd prefer not to be on fire, given the choice (for example). I've totally a preference for "not being on fire." (I'm hot, I know that, but that's not what I mean :D).

Sissyl wrote:
Whether it is homo- or heterosexual, zoophilia or pedophilia, fetishism, sadism or necrophilia, you did not choose your orientation, and should never be judged on the basis of it.

Sissyl, how did you jump from "preference" to "orientation?"

It's a really, really big jump.

I think your heart is in the right place.

I just don't understand how you get from "humans have a spectrum of sexual behaviors" (which I agree with) to "Hey, if you want to have intercourse with a dead puppy that has ballet shoes on (while wearing a tutu/tuxedo), that's all cool. I'm not gonna judge you on it." (which I'm pretty much against.)

-- Andy


Andrew Tuttle wrote:

Hey Sissyl. I'm sorry to quote you all over the place, but I would like to make a point / emphasize something.

Sissyl wrote:
At a high level, sexual preferences are just that, preferences.

Okay, I can agree. All human beings have "preferences."

Flavors they like. States or conditions they'd "choose" to be in, versus conditions they'd find less favorable or "choose not to be in."

I'd prefer not to be on fire, given the choice (for example). I've totally a preference for "not being on fire." (I'm hot, I know that, but that's not what I mean :D).

Sissyl wrote:
Whether it is homo- or heterosexual, zoophilia or pedophilia, fetishism, sadism or necrophilia, you did not choose your orientation, and should never be judged on the basis of it.

Sissyl, how did you jump from "preference" to "orientation?"

It's a really, really big jump.

I think your heart is in the right place.

I just don't understand how you get from "humans have a spectrum of sexual behaviors" (which I agree with) to "Hey, if you want to have intercourse with a dead puppy that has ballet shoes on (while wearing a tutu/tuxedo), that's all cool. I'm not gonna judge you on it." (which I'm pretty much against.)

-- Andy

I think the point was wanting to do something for reasons you can't control and choosing to act on those urges are completely different things, which is a sentiment I completely agree with. I have no problem with pedophiles because I am willing to bet most wouldn't choose to be one if the could, but I despise child rapists and molesters who have chosen to act on a feeling which will actively harm others (who often are the least able to defend themselves).


5 people marked this as a favorite.
Magnu123 wrote:
I like the QUILTBAGPIPE concept, but I think Freehold DM may be treading around an important topic. When sexuality-based rights and support groups gather, from my experience, they tend to include a lot of the minority or "otherly" sexualities. I understand that those people who face the most consistent adversity are those who are different. I also wonder if this "misfits club" for lack of a better word, does not end up becoming less open and inclusive than it claims to be. Again, I like the concept, but I can say from personal experience that I have gone to pride centres and related events and experienced a lot of hostility for being an "outsider". Am I the only one who has had this experience?

I've noted earlier on that as a queer/bi woman, I've felt uncomfortable amongst certain groups of homosexuals because they tended to give me the cold shoulder. I definitely got the "outsider" vibe, if not the "yeah right, like you really exist" treatment. I find this to be more often amongst urban groups, where there are enough people of a given sexuality to that many of them get together and form their own subculture.

It definitely sucks to feel left out--not to mention downright hypocritical to say "I want the right to express my sexuality without being discriminated against! But you, 'bi girl', you don't get to ask for that same right."

But at the same time, from an external point of view, I understand where this comes from. If you belong to a minority--in the broadest sense of the term--that is often unfairly stereotyped, discriminated against, and even beaten because you're different, you (by which I mean a human being) tend to seek out people like yourself. You band together and put up your "group armor" to defend yourself. At the start, this is as a protective instinct, to fend off legitimate threats of the "norm" or "other" who are actively intending to be hurtful to you. But as you also come to celebrate your differences and be proud of them--there's a weird, human tendency to start denigrating those who are different from you. You've formed your group, you've found your place you belong and where you feel like what makes you different makes you special--and thus, the outsiders can't be let in or else you lose your specialness. When you often feel powerless in the outside world, you exert the power you have within your sphere of influence to make the "others" feel like you do in their world. It's part of human nature.

Hell, as a GAMER, I understand where this comes from. While gamers don't usually face the severity of discrimination that TLGBQ folk (it's possible, but we're much less likely to be fired or killed for playing D&D). But we are weirdos, people say crazy stuff about us, we band together, and we become proud of our gamer selves. And we also become elitist. That the others, the "normals," the "non-gamers"--I have frequently seen gamers treat them as stupid, as boring, as the people who "just don't get it," as non-valid to be their friends or associates. I've done it myself, sad to say, and more often than I'd like to admit.

And I've seen any other number of subcultures and factions and various ways human being subdivide themselves do the same thing. It is not a phenomenon unique to homesexuals or anyone else in the TLGBQ (QUILTBAGPIPE?) spectrum.

And at least in the urban queer community I live closest to now, I've seen a lot more openness than I used to. I feel like I could go to Pride this year with a "I'm BI!" t-shirt or whatever and not have stuff thrown at me (I have literally feared that very thing in the past). I've seen a lot of queer groups precisely with that identifier, and seen people in that group truly be welcomed, whether queer themselves or straights allied with the organization's purpose. So I think as that community continues to gets its bearings, it will get past the exclusivist defenses so many subcultures put up--and I think a lot of folks understand they have to do that, if they truly are fighting for diversity recognition and equal rights for everyone.


Thank you, DQ, for sharing that insight. I really think that makes a lot of sense. I'm bi myself too, and I can relate to the "you don't exist" mentality some people have towards bi-sexuals. I hope that, some day, we can learn to curb that particular defense mechanism in human nature.


Not quite feeling ready yet to get to talking about my more important remaining formative experiences like I said I would before I left but I think despite feeling ill right now(or perhaps because) I’m ready to share a personal story that relates to something that has had an effect on many of us(and by us I mean an all inclusive everyone).

Infidelity and Good Relationships Gone a Tragic Direction, (warning: though I tried to keep it as short as possible this ended up being epically long):

While I myself have been jokingly described as a serial monogamist by my friends(doesn’t apply, but I understand what they are referencing) and am loyal as the family hound (not really because I pursue any strong moral ideal per say but more because I view relationships like a team sport, if you don’t have your partner’s back you lose.) I’ve had the misfortune of having a couple of partners cheat on me. The more recent one was actually not that big a deal and had more to do with my boyfriend being too socially awkward to deal with a smooth operator effectively than any conflict in our relationship. In many ways that incident was more hilarious than a cutting betrayal, but I won’t talk about it because I think it’s one of those you kinda had to be there things.

The relationship in which the cheating really burned me up was with a sweet, kind girl…let’s call her C.

C was with me from the beginning, we grew up together and went to the same schools and she was always in my life in some fashion, usually on the periphery, but always around. After my self revelation in high school that led to a marked decrease in dickishness we became decently close friends and towards the end of school we started dating and for a while things went very well. I will tell what happened with that in a bit but more about us first.

One of the central conflicts in C’s life was that people have always thought she is stupid; an opinion that is in and of itself stupid given the massive weight of evidence to the contrary. They assume this because she is an extremely non-vocal person who probably averages four or five complete sentences a day. To understand her one must understand that speaking is just not how she communicates. She communicates with her music, her art, and most importantly, her touch. Beyond the love we shared the thing she said I offered her she found truly unique was that she finally had someone in her life who was paying close enough attention to what was happening around them to see her for who she was and appreciate what was actually happening inside her, something her family, friends and exs all failed to do in her eyes.

She always had a strange power over me even when we weren’t really that close. As kids if I was disrupting a class or picking on some kid and she didn’t like it she would approach me, often from behind, and pull on my shirt. I would always turn on her and jokingly demand. “What do you want?” and she wouldn’t tell me but it would shut me down quite effectively, something about her having a strong calming effect on me. That phrase, “What do you want?” became an inside joke and term of affection between us once we started our romantic relationship and I consider it a piece of bitter irony that by the end those words were an angry curse on my lips.

Many people at the time had questions about what I saw in C, as she didn’t match any of the expectations folks had come to expect from a girl I was seeing. She was darkness to their light, artist to their cheerleader, girlish to their curves. When these questions were hesitantly asked I would respond. “She is special.” True enough but as I’ve gotten older I’ve been able to conceptualize and articulate my feelings much better.

Most people throughout my life have known me as guy possessed of an interesting mix of high energy antics and a laid back vibe. Some of what I say is a joke, some of what I say has a meaning laden seriousness to it, most of the reminder is a mix of the two but the one of the most consistent things about me is what my mom calls my “brightness.”; Which she describes as a charismatic gravity that pulls people in and makes me the center of attention in any given room. When I was cruel it made people fear me, now that I am kind it lets people know they are safe and accepted when in my presence. But there is another side to me that is just a relevant to who I am but isn’t often seen by those around me. A deep melancholia and borderline desolation that feels all the losses I have suffered as strongly as the day I suffered them and that suspects, on some level, that life, while truly a fight from cradle to grave is a fight we are all destined to not only lose, but to have what meaning we managed to gather on the trip stripped away from us as well.

C unlocked this side of me and allowed it out in a cathartic way. In her arms the fires dimmed, I didn’t need to fight anymore, there was no need to be strong. The engine could be turned off, the drive to strive and achieve relaxed.

With her I could be silent, with her I could be still, with her I could experience something previously alien to me…peace.

We spent an immensely satisfying year together before things started going downhill and some of my gentlest, finest memories in life are from that time.

The downfall of our relationship came in the form of a longterm friend and bandmate of hers who she had had great admiration and unrequited feelings for since long before our relationship. In a twist of fate this guy, who we will call T, had one of those “I’ve known you forever but I’m seeing you for the first time.” moments and began gently pursuing her.

In some ways the part of this that made it all so hard is that right from the beginning she was upfront about it and how she felt about it, it wasn’t taking place in secret behind my back. At first I actually had a positive reaction to it in that I didn’t see him as much of a threat to our relationship and was glad she was finally getting some props for the awesome person she actually is. Over the course of months it became more and more serious between them though and the relationship between us became more and more contentious in response.

By the time they started sleeping together I’m not sure why she was still with me anyway, as at that point things had devolved into one long fight between us.

It basically boiled down to my rather ferocious anger over how the situation was playing out. How I wanted it to work is I wanted it to either be a contest between he and I so I could win her heart completely or I wanted the reason she was carrying on this affair to be that there was something wrong with me or our relationship.

She loved us both and she stated that they were exactly two men she had ever met that she desperately wanted and now both of them wanted her, what could she do? And dammit knowing her so well and knowing everything wrapped up in it I understood her feelings. Didn’t stop it from eating me up though. In addition she would tell me that not only didn’t I have any real flaws in her eyes she actually thought I was perfect. “Then what the f!%+?!” I would demand. “What is it you want from me then? What do you want?” and she would lean against me and sob as I growled in anger.

I knew what she wanted though; she wanted me…and him. “What do you want from me?” was code for “How can I make you love only me?”

I really didn’t like the way T responded to me either. This may sound strange but I wished his attitude to me had been a disrespectful “I’m stealing your girl.” one. Instead he was extremely respectful and when I would warned him off my girl he would cringe away from me in fear instead of being defiant. God that made me angry. Sure I was fishing for that one extra push that would allow me to justify murdering him to myself but couldn’t he allow me that one thing? Some people are just so rude.

The break up itself is a long tale but all it basically boils down to is she couldn’t make a choice and I couldn’t stand the situation so I made the choice for her and left.

If there was a song written about my feelings near the end of that relationship it would be this one. It’s pretty spot on.

Some time after it was all over my best friend ending up talking to me about it and made some interesting points about what happened. He believed the situation was less a case of infidelity(because of how honest she was with me) and more an instance of I not being willing to work with her polyamorous feelings.

“Sure but then again she was the one who convinced me to be exclusive in the beginning.” I told him.

“Yeah but all situations evolve with time, you more than anyone else should know that. What really strikes me as odd is just how easily you could have made that situation work if you had decided to. You could have either A. forbad her from seeing him and told her to leave the band and she absolutely would have. Or B. used the fact that T is a pretty cool bi-sexual man too and made a functioning love triangle out of the situation. You had the power to do both so I’m not sure why you played this the way you did.”

“To the first I refuse to make important decisions for the people I love that they need to make for themselves. I don’t believe I have the right and also I want equals, not lackeys, in my life. To the second you should realize by now that I don’t play well with others when I have a heavy emotional investment in a situation and I don’t like what is happening and besides do I strike you as a guy who likes to share?”

Apparently he thought that second response was really funny because he laughed uproariously.

“I think the central problem in your romantic life is that you want what you want but you’re not happy simply seizing it. You’re also not happy following another’s desires if they don’t match yours and you find them uncomfortable. You need someone who wants exactly what you want but in the end that’s not something you can just make happen. You’re only ever going to be happy from a romantic point of view if you get lucky and find the right person.”

“Isn’t that mostly true of everyone?” I asked.

“Unfortunately, it probably is.” He agreed.

A part of me still loves C but there is not much I can do about it (or rather perhaps that I’m willing to do about it.). She is still with T and seems mostly happy so I am happy she got at least half of what she wanted. We still see each other from time to time as we share a lot of the same friends but I’ve learned never to be alone with her for any length of time, as she becomes her version of nostalgic and will touch me, running her hands through my hair and placing her body close to mine. My honest feelings over this is that I both like it for the soft, safe memories it brings and also feel irritated by it for much the same reason, as I recall freshly my loss. While enough time has passed that I’m not that butt hurt by the whole thing anymore my feelings about what I want in life haven’t changed so I can’t see much good coming from digging it all up again.

And that’s the story of how I effectively lost one of the most important people in my life.


DeathQuaker wrote:
Magnu123 wrote:
I like the QUILTBAGPIPE concept, but I think Freehold DM may be treading around an important topic. When sexuality-based rights and support groups gather, from my experience, they tend to include a lot of the minority or "otherly" sexualities. I understand that those people who face the most consistent adversity are those who are different. I also wonder if this "misfits club" for lack of a better word, does not end up becoming less open and inclusive than it claims to be. Again, I like the concept, but I can say from personal experience that I have gone to pride centres and related events and experienced a lot of hostility for being an "outsider". Am I the only one who has had this experience?

I've noted earlier on that as a queer/bi woman, I've felt uncomfortable amongst certain groups of homosexuals because they tended to give me the cold shoulder. I definitely got the "outsider" vibe, if not the "yeah right, like you really exist" treatment. I find this to be more often amongst urban groups, where there are enough people of a given sexuality to that many of them get together and form their own subculture.

It definitely sucks to feel left out--not to mention downright hypocritical to say "I want the right to express my sexuality without being discriminated against! But you, 'bi girl', you don't get to ask for that same right."

But at the same time, from an external point of view, I understand where this comes from. If you belong to a minority--in the broadest sense of the term--that is often unfairly stereotyped, discriminated against, and even beaten because you're different, you (by which I mean a human being) tend to seek out people like yourself. You band together and put up your "group armor" to defend yourself. At the start, this is as a protective instinct, to fend off legitimate threats of the "norm" or "other" who are actively intending to be hurtful to you. But as you also come to celebrate your differences and be proud of them--there's a weird, human tendency...

Someone I love very much is bi. You more or less described what she's going through now. Thank you for sharing your story. I've encountered a lot of discrimination against bi people through the people I meet at my second job, and it's just not right. They are people with their own set of preferences/orientation, not "tourists" who are going to cheat on you at the drop of a hat.


Dogbladewarrior wrote:

Not quite feeling ready yet to get to talking about my more important remaining formative experiences like I said I would before I left but I think despite feeling ill right now(or perhaps because) I’m ready to share a personal story that relates to something that has had an effect on many of us(and by us I mean an all inclusive everyone).

** spoiler omitted **...

I'm sorry dogbladewarrior. That must have hurt. Wow.

I'm not sure what I would have done in that situation.


I was in love with friend (K), for a long, long time, never reciprocated ("You are like brother to me" and "I could never love you", there were moments when she did showed some affection towards me but never moved past gentle embrace and holding hands). And yet, despite knowing that she almost certainly won't be with me, I had rejected advances of a few other women that were interested in me (with mutual interest) because they were rather looking for something long-term and I wasn't capable of starting such relation without feeling dishonest towards them. K was angered when she learned of that (I got a few bruises from her). However, as two of three of those women ended in happy marriages and third is in relationship that will probably end in marriage I do not regret my decisions. (incidentally both K and those three women were prone to punching my arm when I done or said something that angered them, sometimes to their own detriment when they struck under wrong angle :D ).

When I loved her, I wanted her to be with me and only with me, but there were moments when I was willing to be with her even if she would not break up with her then boyfriends feeling that I would rather be with her sharing her with someone else than not be with her at all.

During one of her birthday parties when her boyfriend at that time (whom I met that day for the first, and I think the only time) hugged me when I was leaving saying to me that she spoke about me as someone special to her. It was quite weird experience.


Drejk wrote:

I was in love with friend (K), for a long, long time, never reciprocated ("You are like brother to me" and "I could never love you", there were moments when she did showed some affection towards me but never moved past gentle embrace and holding hands). And yet, despite knowing that she almost certainly won't be with me, I had rejected advances of a few other women that were interested in me (with mutual interest) because they were rather looking for something long-term and I wasn't capable of starting such relation without feeling dishonest towards them. K was angered when she learned of that (I got a few bruises from her). However, as two of three of those women ended in happy marriages and third is in relationship and will probably marry her boyfriend I do not regret my decisions.

When I loved her, I wanted her to be with me and only with me, but there were moments when I was willing to be with her even if she would not break up with her then boyfriends feeling that I would rather be with her sharing her with someone else than not be with her at all.

During one of her birthday parties when her boyfriend at that time (whom I met that day for the first, and I think the only time) hugged me when I was leaving saying to me that she spoke about me as someone special to her. It was quite weird experience.

Damn.


Drejk wrote:
And yet, despite knowing that she almost certainly won't be with me, I had rejected advances of a few other women that were interested in me (...)

Oh, and I might have failed to notice less explicit interest of a few other women directed towards me at that time. :D

There are some minor things I still wonder about: when I brought K to gaming club that I attended as that time, some of the girls in the club asked K if she is my girlfriend... And I don't know what girl was that :| Another one asked her if "K is my sister because we resemble each other" - a notion that both of us rejected. Anyway lots of people thought we were together, including my parents. It was somewhat hilarious (in a hindsight) when my mother told me for us to be careful because she does not want to be grandmother yet, and she could not believe we do not sleep with each other...

In some way, the early middle part of that 9 years when I loved her were the best years of my life (maybe except form my childhood until the grandmothers death), partly because of her, partly because of the environment, partly because of people around before they changed, moved along with their lives.


Freehold DM wrote:


I'm sorry dogbladewarrior. That must have hurt. Wow.

I'm not sure what I would have done in that situation.

Thanks. It did hurt, more than is easily expressible.

I know, in the end I not sure anything could have been done. The problem had more to do with incompatible needs than a lack of love or caring so how could it truly have worked?


Drejk wrote:


When I loved her, I wanted her to be with me and only with me, but there were moments when I was willing to be with her even if she would not break up with her then boyfriends feeling that I would rather be with her sharing her with someone else than not be with her at all.

I understand this sentiment completely, where it fell through for me was having to deal with the situation on a daily basis. I didn't have the emotional stamina to handle it.

Shadow Lodge

So I finally got the courage to ask my friend from before out, and he responded with "I've always thought of you as a brother", which made no sense to me after that night.

Strangely enough, I found I'm fine with that. I figure it's because I don't want to hurt him and ruin the friendship. I've seen him get hurt before, and keep going back to the people that hurt him. I don't want to be one of those people.


Dogbladewarrior wrote:
Drejk wrote:


When I loved her, I wanted her to be with me and only with me, but there were moments when I was willing to be with her even if she would not break up with her then boyfriends feeling that I would rather be with her sharing her with someone else than not be with her at all.

I understand this sentiment completely, where it fell through for me was having to deal with the situation on a daily basis. I didn't have the emotional stamina to handle it.

I didn't know if I could handle that emotionally in long run, but I would not be sharing relationship I already had with someone else, I would be gaining what I wanted, so the circumstances were different. Of course it would not matter because the actual issue was that she wasn't attracted to me sexually.

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