Paizo Top Nav Branding
  • Hello, Guest! |
  • Sign In |
  • My Account |
  • Shopping Cart |
  • Help/FAQ
About Paizo Messageboards News Paizo Blog Help/FAQ
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game
Pathfinder Society

Pathfinder Beginner Box

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game

Pathfinder Comics

Pathfinder Legends

Project Image & Ethereal Jaunt: Legal?


Rules Questions

51 to 63 of 63 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Cheliax

Tarantula wrote:

My bad, I was going off the base spread rules, not the specific fireball rules.

If you tried to charm person through a glass pane, it is not a valid target because there is no LOE, you cannot chose the target through the glass pane. You can chose a different target you do have LOE to, since you already have cast the spell.

Edit: Looking specifically at fireball, is "If the damage caused to an interposing barrier shatters or breaks through it, the fireball may continue beyond the barrier if the area permits; otherwise it stops at the barrier just as any other spell effect does."

So yes, you will hit the glass, break it (most likely) and then continue through to where you aimed your fireball.

a little off topic, but it get more intersting

The fireball would still detonate on the glass (nothing says how much damage the bead does when it strikes the glass, just that it if hits a barrier , it detonates. ) But if the damage from the fireball detonation breaks the glass, then it will continue to fill out past the glass (to the max spread distance following the spread rules).

So, the bead will stop, and the point of origin for the spread would be the glass (or at least where it was).

I have seen these rules used to launch a fireball bean into a giants full helm through the vision slots...


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

No, I think the spread of the fireball starts from the barrier. The thing to remember about fireball, is it is in two parts:

1) the bead that is directed toward the target
2) the area affect, that starts from where the bead 'explodes'

In the case of the pane of glass, the bead stops there. If the damage destroys the pane of glass (not exactly hard) the fireball itself expands to fill it's full 20' radius from where the bead hit the barrier.

Either way, your spell was aimed but did not have line of effect to where you wanted it to go.

Edit: Ninja'd by Happler!


Since you aren't allowed to target a space you don't have LoE to, the only way that this can occur is if the glass has a window in it that you can use fireball's unique rules to try and go through but miss and hit the glass, or if someone readies an action to pop wall of glass or something while the fireball is in flight to interpose a barrier; since placing a barrier prevents LoE from even allowing you to cast it at the desired space.


Ashiel, I believe the fireball text specifies that you direct the point of effect to be a distance and height from your character. The bead then travels toward that point, and if it hits a barrier that interrupts LOE it then detonates there.

This is a special case for fireball, and other spells work as you said.


Tarantula wrote:

Ashiel, I believe the fireball text specifies that you direct the point of effect to be a distance and height from your character. The bead then travels toward that point, and if it hits a barrier that interrupts LOE it then detonates there.

This is a special case for fireball, and other spells work as you said.

Fair enough. Thank you. :)


The one thing that I wanted to understand is this:

when someone casts a spell, he first casts, then selects the target? this means if anything happens between the casting and the targeting, the mage lost his spell...

wow readied actions are way more powerful then I thought and I already use them extensively...

caster vs ninja

ninja readies an action: if the casters starts casting, I vanish
caster: I launch Magic Missile at the ninja

the caster starts casting
the ninja vanishes
the caster lost his target and can waste his magic missile or target someone else
...

hmm, not sure I like that, but is it RAI?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It's RAW and RAI.

Ashiel wrote:
Since you aren't allowed to target a space you don't have LoE to, the only way that this can occur is if the glass has a window in it that you can use fireball's unique rules to try and go through but miss and hit the glass, or if someone readies an action to pop wall of glass or something while the fireball is in flight to interpose a barrier; since placing a barrier prevents LoE from even allowing you to cast it at the desired space.
Tarantula wrote:

Ashiel, I believe the fireball text specifies that you direct the point of effect to be a distance and height from your character. The bead then travels toward that point, and if it hits a barrier that interrupts LOE it then detonates there.

This is a special case for fireball, and other spells work as you said.

Alternatively, if there is a barrier you are unaware of, it will foil the spell. However LoE only takes place when you are targeting a spell, nothing stops you casting the spell and using the spell-slot up until you find you don't have LoE.

The only question is, are you aware that you do not have LoE at that point, or does your spell simply fail? I have always played it that the spell just fails, and the caster may be unaware of why. If he targets an illusion that responds to the spell as if it were real, then the caster can be fooled into thinking the spell has taken full effect.

Spells are not like sidewinder missiles that you lock on target before they are cast. You have to cast the spell and then find out of the target is valid, not the other way around. If you didn't, the entire illusion school could be easily unravelled automatically by targeting spells at illusions and using the gain or loss of targeting to determine if the subject is real. As Ashiel has mentioned, the illusion school is weak enough as it is.


Ashiel wrote:

Dungeon Grrrl;

You make a compelling argument. I concede the thread to you. While I personally disagree that the spell would be subject to ethereality given the source from a material location, I have nothing that I can refute it with.

Good show. ^-^

Thanks. ;D

Now I'm kind of sad. The same sort of sadness I get when I finish the last episode of a good anime series.

I've enjoyed the debate, and it certainly sent me diving back to the rulebooks more than once.

Quote:
I do love talking about game mechanics. Why do you seem anxious to argue this point?
Same, here actually. I think it's the reason I keep getting drawn into these things. At least this thread has been more... *ponders* ... fruitful and classier ... than the usual trash I find myself caught up in. :P

Fair enough!


Dabbler wrote:
You have to cast the spell and then find out of the target is valid, not the other way around. If you didn't, the entire illusion school could be easily unravelled automatically by targeting spells at illusions and using the gain or loss of targeting to determine if the subject is real.

Why is an illusion not a valid target? If a caster wants to Magic Missle an Illusion, it should work, why shouldn't he have LOE to the illusion?

Targeting somebody or something shouldn't allow you automatic insight about it's nature?

Is a caster aware of a creatures spell resistance when his spell gets resisted? imho it shouldn't. He just knows his spell failed, but it could be a saving throw or an immunity or anything else?

Am I wrong again?

I realize that I've had a lot of assumtions from previous editions, habits and houserules, I'll need to check quite a few things because they are different from what I thought. :-/


Dungeon Grrrl wrote:


Thanks. ;D

Now I'm kind of sad. The same sort of sadness I get when I finish the last episode of a good anime series.

Tell me about it. I had the same feeling when I finished my D&D set of Claymore a few months ago. I'll probably have the same feeling when I finish Sailor Moon (finally got all the episodes; I used to watch it when I was a kid, but missed tons of episodes due to odd time slots and schizophrenic tv-station activities. :P

Quote:
I've enjoyed the debate, and it certainly sent me diving back to the rulebooks more than once.

Same here. It was fun. :)


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kyoni wrote:
Dabbler wrote:
You have to cast the spell and then find out of the target is valid, not the other way around. If you didn't, the entire illusion school could be easily unravelled automatically by targeting spells at illusions and using the gain or loss of targeting to determine if the subject is real.

Why is an illusion not a valid target? If a caster wants to Magic Missle an Illusion, it should work, why shouldn't he have LOE to the illusion?

Targeting somebody or something shouldn't allow you automatic insight about it's nature?

Is a caster aware of a creatures spell resistance when his spell gets resisted? imho it shouldn't. He just knows his spell failed, but it could be a saving throw or an immunity or anything else?

Am I wrong again?

I realize that I've had a lot of assumtions from previous editions, habits and houserules, I'll need to check quite a few things because they are different from what I thought. :-/

You and me both!


Kyoni wrote:

Why is an illusion not a valid target? If a caster wants to Magic Missle an Illusion, it should work, why shouldn't he have LOE to the illusion?

Targeting somebody or something shouldn't allow you automatic insight about it's nature?

Magic missile targets creatures. Illusions are figments/glamers/etc. Not a valid target.

Kyoni wrote:

Is a caster aware of a creatures spell resistance when his spell gets resisted? imho it shouldn't. He just knows his spell failed, but it could be a saving throw or an immunity or anything else?

Am I wrong again?

I realize that I've had a lot of assumtions from previous editions, habits and houserules, I'll need to check quite a few things because they are different from what I thought. :-/

"Succeeding on a Saving Throw: A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. Likewise, if a creature's saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell, you sense that the spell has failed. You do not sense when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area spells."

"Spell resistance is a special defensive ability. If your spell is being resisted by a creature with spell resistance, you must make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) at least equal to the creature's spell resistance for the spell to affect that creature. The defender's spell resistance is like an Armor Class against magical attacks. Include any adjustments to your caster level to this caster level check."
Affecting a creature with spell resistance takes effort on the part of the caster (the caster level check) thus, they know that the creature has SR. If the spell was targetted, and doesn't work, they would know whether the creature made its save, or it was the SR. If it was an area effect, they don't know which it is.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Tarantula wrote:
"Succeeding on a Saving Throw: A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. Likewise, if a creature's saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell, you sense that the spell has failed. You do not sense when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area spells."

That's a reasonable basis for the caster of a spell to know that a spell has failed if he didn't actually have line of effect, I will concede.

51 to 63 of 63 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Paizo / Messageboards / Paizo Publishing / Pathfinder® / Pathfinder RPG / Rules Questions / Project Image & Ethereal Jaunt: Legal? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.

©2002–2014 Paizo Inc.®. Need help? Email customer.service@paizo.com or call 425-250-0800 during our business hours: Monday–Friday, 10 AM–5 PM Pacific Time. View our privacy policy. Paizo Inc., Paizo, the Paizo golem logo, Pathfinder, the Pathfinder logo, Pathfinder Society, GameMastery, and Planet Stories are registered trademarks of Paizo Inc., and Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Pathfinder Adventure Path, Pathfinder Adventure Card Game, Pathfinder Player Companion, Pathfinder Modules, Pathfinder Tales, Pathfinder Battles, Pathfinder Online, PaizoCon, RPG Superstar, The Golem's Got It, Titanic Games, the Titanic logo, and the Planet Stories planet logo are trademarks of Paizo Inc. Dungeons & Dragons, Dragon, Dungeon, and Polyhedron are registered trademarks of Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc., and have been used by Paizo Inc. under license. Most product names are trademarks owned or used under license by the companies that publish those products; use of such names without mention of trademark status should not be construed as a challenge to such status.