Fighter 4 / Monk 4, what do you think ?

[Grenouillebleue]

I wanted to build a heavy hitter that would also get nice defenses and some utility. Here's what I came up with (25 pt buy)

Quote:

Male Half-Elf Fighter (Brawler) 4 Monk (Master of Many Styles) 4

LN Medium Humanoid (Elf, Human)
Init +3; Senses Low-Light Vision; Perception +14
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 28, touch 14, flat-footed 22 (+11 armor, +1 Dex, +1 deflection, +5 dodge)
hp 72 (4d10+4d8+16)
Fort +12, Ref +8, Will +11
Defensive Abilities Bravery +1; Immune sleep; Resist Elven Immunities
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 30 ft.
Melee Unarmed Strike +18/+13 (1d8+18/20/x2)
Special Attacks Close Combatant +1/+3, Ki Strike, Magic
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 22/26, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8

Feats Crane Riposte, Crane Style, Crane Wing, Dodge, Dragon Ferocity +4, 1d4+8r, Dragon Style, Improved Unarmed Strike, Monk Weapon Proficiencies, Power Attack -2/+4, Stunning Fist (5/day) (DC 15), Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike, Weapon Specialization: Unarmed Strike
Traits Indomitable Faith, Reactionary

Combat Gear +2 Full Plate; Other Gear Amulet of Mighty Fists +1, Belt of Giant Strength, +4, Cloak of Resistance, +2, Ring of Protection, +1

Basically, when I fight defensively (fusing Crane Style and Dragon Style), I get 28 AC and a free deflection + riposte. At level 8, this means I can deal pretty well with melee attacks.

My saves are quite high as well from dipping into monks.

I can attack two times at +18/+13 for 1d8+18. With PA, that's 1d8+22.
I have only 3 Ki for now (planning to take extra ki) but that's 3 free attacks I can make so far.

Any thoughts ? What do you think about this build ?

[Jiggy]

You took one of the most powerful monk builds in existence, used a generous point buy, and added some fighter levels.

It is strong.

Not sure what you're looking for here.

[Mergy]

I'm pretty sure you can't use your ki to get an extra attack if you don't have the flurry of blows class feature.

[Nezthalak]

QFT:

Quote:

By spending 1 point from his ki pool, a monk can make one additional attack at his highest attack bonus when making a flurry of blows attack.

[Jiggy]

Mergy wrote:

I'm pretty sure you can't use your ki to get an extra attack if you don't have the flurry of blows class feature.

Good catch. The extra attack is only "when you make a flurry of blows". If you never make a flurry of blows, you can't activate that ability.

[Grenouillebleue]

Jiggy wrote:

Not sure what you're looking for here.

I guess I was looking for what Mergy said, i.e. the fine prints someone always forgets :D

Would the build hold its own in a fight even without the extra attack ?

[Mergy]

That said, it's still great for +4 to AC for a round or an extra 20 ft. of movement speed.

Speaking of movement speed, how are you moving at 30 ft. while wearing full plate without any armour training?

[Mergy]

Grenouillebleue wrote:

Jiggy wrote:

Not sure what you're looking for here.

I guess I was looking for what Mergy said, i.e. the fine prints someone always forgets :D

Would the build hold its own in a fight even without the extra attack ?

It's okay, but I wager that I could build an 8th level core fighter that can use crane style better and do more damage. He wouldn't be able to charge across difficult terrain, and he wouldn't have Acrobatics as a class skill, but I think that's all he'd lose.

[Grenouillebleue]

Well, he wouldn't get the dragon style bonus to damage nor the improved damage die from monk, would he ?

Or did I miss something again ?

As for the 30ft, I'm wondering myself. Maybe a Herolab bug...

[Mergy]

He would get weapon training, improved BAB for power attack, and be much more in line to take fighter only feats later on in his career. He would also be able to move full speed in that full plate. I would likely go with a scimitar though, and just be confident in my unarmed strike as a backup weapon.

I'm having some trouble figuring out how you got +18 on your unarmed strike, so if you wouldn't mind posting the breakdown, I would appreciate it.

I'll soon post an 8th level fighter! :)

25 point-buy, 33,000gp loot.

[Grenouillebleue]

Mergy wrote:

He would get weapon training, improved BAB for power attack, and be much more in line to take fighter only feats later on in his career. He would also be able to move full speed in that full plate. I would likely go with a scimitar though, and just be confident in my unarmed strike as a backup weapon.

I'm having some trouble figuring out how you got +18 on your unarmed strike, so if you wouldn't mind posting the breakdown, I would appreciate it.

I'll soon post an 8th level fighter! :)

25 point-buy, 33,000gp loot.

I get + 8 from strength, + 2 from weapon spe, + 1 from amulet, + 3 from brawler and + 4 from dragon ferocity.

That's + 18. Actually, the first hit would be at +22 (dragon style).

These numbers go to +22 or +26 with PA.

[Mergy]

That's your damage, what about your attack values?

[Grenouillebleue]

+7 from BAB, + 8 from STR, + 1 from brawler, +1 from amulet and + 1 from weapon focus = +18.

[Mergy]

Okay, I'm also confused as to how you calculated your hit points. I tried average per level starting with a full hit die so 10 + 16.5 (5.5 x 3) + 18 (4.5 x 4) + 24, but that only equals 68.

Also, I've noticed you haven't subtracted 1 from your attack roll in order to give yourself that AC of 28.

Anyway, here's the build:

Spoiler:

Human Fighter 8
LN Medium humanoid (human)
Init +7; Senses Perception +10

DEFENCE

AC 23, touch 12, flat-footed 22 (armour +10, deflection +1, Dex +1, Dodge +1)
Hp 72 (8d10+24)
Fort +10, Ref +5, Will +8; +2 vs. fear

OFFENCE

Speed 30 ft.
Melee +2 scimitar +21/+16 (1d6+14/18-20) or unarmed strike +15 (1d3+7)
Ranged sling +10 (1d4+7)

STATISTICS

Str 24, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8
Base Atk +8; CMB +15; CMD 27
Feats Crane Riposte, Crane Style, Crane Wing, Dodge, Improved Initiative, Improved Unarmed Strike, Iron Will, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Weapon Specialization (Scimitar)
Skills Acrobatics +9, Climb +14, Perception +10, Swim +14; AC penalty -3
Traits Reactionary, Indomitable Faith
Languages Common and one other
SQ armour training 2, weapon training (heavy blades)
Gear +2 scimitar, sling and 10 bullets, +2 full plate, belt of giant's strength +2, cloak of resistance +2, ring of protection +1, wand of cure light wounds

Of course, while fighting defensively his AC is 27 and his melee is "+2 scimitar +20/+15 (1d6+14/18-20)", and combined with power attack, that becomes "+2 scimitar +17/+12 (1d6+20/18-20)"; this won't outdamage your build, but your build has a few legal loopholes to work through, like your plate armour movement speed. I do appreciate your saving throws over mine, however.

Your fighter/monk fighting defensively with power attack against a CR 8 enemy (AC 21):

unarmed strike +15 (1d8+26) and +10 (1d8+22) = 46.30625 DPR

Math:

0.75 x 30.5 + .75 x 30.5 x 0.05 = 32.39375
0.5 x 26.5 + .5 x 26.5 x 0.05 = 13.9125

My fighter fighting defensively with power attack against the same CR 8 enemy (AC 21):

+2 scimitar +17/+12 (1d6+19/18-20) = 37.51875 DPR

Math:

0.85 x 22.5 + 0.85 x 22.5 x 0.15 = 21.99375
0.6 x 22.5 + 0.6 x 22.5 x 0.15 = 15.525

Cost Breakdown:

33,000gp

15,000gp gloves of dueling
8,315gp +2 scimitar
0.1gp sling and 10 bullets
4,000gp belt of giant's strength +2
2,650gp +1 full plate
4,000gp cloak of resistance +2
2,000gp ring of protection +1
750gp wand of cure light wounds

Feat Breakdown:

1 Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack
2 Crane Style
3 Weapon Focus (Scimitar)
4 Weapon Specialization (Scimitar)
5 Crane Wing
6 Improved Initiative
7 Iron Will
8 Crane Riposte

Hmm, I've lost my own bet! :D I do think the single-classed fighter will pull ahead however, because next level he gets Greater Weapon Focus, and after that Improved Critical. I would be happy to try at a different level, as this seems like quite the sweet spot for your multiclass.

[Grenouillebleue]

Thanks for your refreshing honesty ;)

For my HP: I get +3 hp per level (+2 from con, +1 from both favored with half-elf).

So I have 10 hp + 3d10 (6 average, so 18) + 4d8 (5 average, so 20) + 24.
That's 72.

I would love to try again at another level, just tell me which one. The only downside of this build is the cost of the amulet of mighty fists vs the cost of a regular weapon ;)

[Mergy]

One major edge that you have that you're not taking advantage of is your lack of shield. You only need one hand free to make use of Crane Riposte, and the other hand could hold a +1 heavy darkwood shield for only 1257gp and a +3 shield bonus to AC.

Actually, since a buckler leaves one's hand free, I wonder if my fighter couldn't also make use of one.

[Grenouillebleue]

A shield would be great, but I just couldn't bring myself to use one RP-wise.

A hulking brute that punches you to death while wearing 50 pounds of steel looks fun to me. Add a shield, and it looks ridiculous.

But yeah, in terms of sheer power, a heavy shield would be great. With 31 AC, nothing but a critical could harm me - and those would be parried by crane style ^^

[Mergy]

Suit yourself. Wear a buckler if you think it might fit better, as that would probably match the 50 pounds of steel. You still need a way to move faster than 20 ft. though or you're going to be unhappy.

[Grenouillebleue]

I could lose the brawler template. That would lower my damage by 2 but I guess I could deal with it.

Good idea !

[Mergy]

Actually, you would eventually gain damage, because gloves of dueling work for weapon training, but not for the brawler equivalent.

[Grenouillebleue]

How did you get +21/+16 on your fighter ?

I found 8 (bab) + 7 (str) + 2 (scimitar bonus) + 1 (focus) + 1 (training) = 19 ?

[Mergy]

Gloves of dueling add +2 to weapon training. Priciest item he had at 15,000gp.

[Grenouillebleue]

Ok, they weren't on the recap ^^

That explains a lot, thanks !
Actually, your build would do more damage if you were to use the scimitar two-handed.

[Mergy]

True, but it would leave him unable to riposte. In incidents where he needs extra damage, his DPR should come up to yours, but he loses his ability to deflect an attack.

[Mergy]

Alright, so DPR while two-handing his scimitar pulls him out ahead I believe.

+2 scimitar +17/+12 (1d6+26/18-20) against AC 21 = 49.19125 DPR

Math:

0.85 x 29.5 + 0.85 x 29.5 x 0.15 = 28.83625
0.6 x 29.5 + 0.6 x 29.5 x 0.15 = 20.355

If your interpretation is correct that he would be able to take his hand off after his attacks to use riposte, then the fighter build comes out pretty good.

[Mergy]

Oops, just realized his listed stats are wrong. All the modifiers are right, but the stats should read Str 24, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8.

[Lobolusk]

Where do you get the +5 dodge bonus at?

[Mergy]

He was counting in advance the bonus from Crane Style and fighting defensively, which is incorrect, but it lets you set a baseline as to how the character will fight.