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RPG Superstar 2015

Alchemical allocation questions - seems too good to be true.


Rules Questions

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Let's say I'm a level 8 alchemist (with 33k gold according to the wealth tables).

Can I buy:
- 1 potion of Magic Vestment CL 20 (3000 gold)
- 1 potion of Heroism CL 20 (2000 gold)
- 1 potion of Barkskin CL 20 (2000 gold)

And use Alchemical allocation with it ?

With the extend potion discovery, the alchemist could start his day by going:

- Cast Amplify Elixir (8 rounds of double length for potions).
- Cast AA, drink Magic Vestment (2 rounds)
- Cast AA, drink Heroism (2 rounds)
- Cast AA, drink Barkskin (2 rounds).

Now Amplify Elixir doesn't work on Magic Vestment. However, this still nets:

- +5 bonus on armor for 40 hours.
- +2 to hit and saves for 13 hours and 20 minutes
- + 5 natural armor for 13 hours and 20 minutes.

Basically, at the cost of 3 level 2 extracts, the alchemist will have these awesome buffs for the whole day.

Did I get something wrong ? Seems too good to be true.

Dark Archive

Well, the time is 6 hours 40 mins for 20th level 10 min / lvl spells, and I don't believe magic vestment works (it's an oil applied to armor, so can't be drunk) but you have 99% of it right. Most GMs wouldn't allow 20th level potions; which still makes it an insanely diverse 2nd level spells (keeping potions of flight, water breathing, etc). In fact, it's hard to suggest memorizing anything else as a 2nd or 3rd level slot. With the 20th level potion, you end up with the 5th level vivisector with +5 weapons (greater magic fang) and heroism "usually up during the adventure day".


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Threatened wrote:

Let's say I'm a level 8 alchemist (with 33k gold according to the wealth tables).

Can I buy:
- 1 potion of Magic Vestment CL 20 (3000 gold)
- 1 potion of Heroism CL 20 (2000 gold)
- 1 potion of Barkskin CL 20 (2000 gold)

And use Alchemical allocation with it ?

Did I get something wrong ?

You forgot to have the level 20 Summoner craft you a potion of Stoneskin. Other than that, provided you can GET lvl 20 potions, you're good to go.


Thalin wrote:
Well, the time is 6 hours 40 mins for 20th level 10 min / lvl spells, and I don't believe magic vestment works (it's an oil applied to armor, so can't be drunk) but you have 99% of it right. Most GMs wouldn't allow 20th level potions; which still makes it an insanely diverse 2nd level spells (keeping potions of flight, water breathing, etc). In fact, it's hard to suggest memorizing anything else as a 2nd or 3rd level slot. With the 20th level potion, you end up with the 5th level vivisector with +5 weapons (greater magic fang) and heroism "usually up during the adventure day".

It's 3 hours 20 minutes base, x2 for Amplify Elixir, x2 for Extend Potion so 13 hours 20 minutes.

I see your point with Magic Vestment, though.

Dedicated Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Tales Subscriber

Amplify Elixir treats a potion as if it had been extended. You can't extend a potion that already has been extended. So 6h40m it is.

Also I as a GM would never allow my players to aquire 20th level potions unless they can convince me why a high level caster would bother with them.

When they got near to 20th Level I would pester them daily with 6th level chars requesting potions :)

Liberty's Edge Star Voter 2015

As others note, the basic problem here is gettying level 20 potions. A request which would result in my uproarious laughter if any of my players made it.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If you want to blow 7k of your wealth every day go for it.

Dark Archive

The spell lets you spit back the potion, so it's a 1-time expenditure. It is true you can't extend twice.

PFS does allow said 20th level potions, which is where a lot of the problem of these builds come in. Of course, it's decently easy to break PFS precisely because of the lack of GM intervention, so this is just one of many ways (overpowered Synthasists, 4 shot gunslingers, and other random poorly thought out power-creeps).

But no GM would let this fly in a home game. Though it's still insane, especially as you go up the levels (you can take a discovery to at least make the potions the same level as you, and the diversity this spell offers is fantastic even if you are stuck with "base" potions).


Ughbash wrote:
If you want to blow 7k of your wealth every day go for it.

I believe there is an extract that let's you "gargle" a potion, gain it's effects, and then spit it back into the vial/bottle for use again later.

Marathon Voter 2013

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Azten wrote:
Ughbash wrote:
If you want to blow 7k of your wealth every day go for it.
I believe there is an extract that let's you "gargle" a potion, gain it's effects, and then spit it back into the vial/bottle for use again later.

That extract is Alchemical Allocation.

Marathon Voter 2013

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Is Magic Vestment actually a potion? I thought that was an oil, so it wouldn't work.

But yes, Alchemical Allocation is very powerful. However, GMs should probably figure out what the highest level of potions available are. The corner store probably doesn't have a potion made from a level 20 wizard :)


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Well, AA is basically the only good extract Alchemists get. :)
Everything else has no level reduction at all (even compared to wiz/cleric!) or if unique to alchemist, sucks. Fluid Form and Twin Form being the major exceptions, but also pretty high level.

Is getting CL 20 potions that hard? In PF can't you emulate higher CL for an item by making the spellcraft/whatver check? Seriously, I don't know, the crafting rules confuse the hell out of me. Pretty sure a CL 5 guy can use spellcraft to make something that requires CL 10 with a high enough check and it then counts as being CL 10 even though the guy that made it was CL 5. So why could you not also inflate the item's CL with higher skill check, too?

Liberty's Edge Star Voter 2015

StreamOfTheSky wrote:
Is getting CL 20 potions that hard? In PF can't you emulate higher CL for an item by making the spellcraft/whatver check? Seriously, I don't know, the crafting rules confuse the hell out of me. Pretty sure a CL 5 guy can use spellcraft to make something that requires CL 10 with a high enough check and it then counts as being CL 10 even though the guy that made it was CL 5. So why could you not also inflate the item's CL with higher skill check, too?

This is not how crafting works. You can potentially make things (like Wondrous Items) that normally require a higher CL than you have, or spells you lack (which is what you're thinking of), but you can't do the same on spell duplication items. You simply cannot make potions or wands of spells you can't cast, or at higher caster level than you have, and that is a hard limit.


Thanks for those answers. It basically boils down to whether the world we play in is magic-happy or low-magic. I knew something was fishy here ;)

Speaking of cheese, is there a size limit on Force Bomb ? Anyone touched by a direct hit has to make a reflex save or fall prone. It's not a trip, so there's no size bonus and trip-immune creatures have no bonuses as well.

This confuses the hell out of me. This would mean even the Tarasque would fall prone on a failed reflex save (this being an exageration to prove my point) ?

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Thalin wrote:

The spell lets you spit back the potion, so it's a 1-time expenditure. It is true you can't extend twice.

PFS does allow said 20th level potions, which is where a lot of the problem of these builds come in. Of course, it's decently easy to break PFS precisely because of the lack of GM intervention, so this is just one of many ways (overpowered Synthasists, 4 shot gunslingers, and other random poorly thought out power-creeps).

But no GM would let this fly in a home game. Though it's still insane, especially as you go up the levels (you can take a discovery to at least make the potions the same level as you, and the diversity this spell offers is fantastic even if you are stuck with "base" potions).

This is incorrect. When you purchase a potion or scroll in PFS, the item is at the lowest possible caster level. A potion of barkskin is caster level 3, and a scroll of grease is DC 11.

Please check your facts before you spread misinformation.

Dark Archive

I mean, I've seen what I've seen at tables; people seem to assume that you can make the potions at the level you want. Though in fairness i've seen it on the potions listed below that are listed with a +, so who knows?

Even if you argue against, potions of barkskin +5 are in the book, and would require a 15th level caster. So you're looking at 4 hours of barksin. Heroism would "only" be an hour 40 minutes. The potion of greater magic fang +5 also exists, and that is 20th caster level.


Cheapy wrote:
Azten wrote:
Ughbash wrote:
If you want to blow 7k of your wealth every day go for it.
I believe there is an extract that let's you "gargle" a potion, gain it's effects, and then spit it back into the vial/bottle for use again later.
That extract is Alchemical Allocation.

*facepalm*

Gotta remember to look stuff up before I post...


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

You missed the best one -- 20th level Greater Magic Fang potion. It has a version that lets you buff one natural attack at +5. So:

Alchemist with the Discovery to give claw and bite attacks to his mutagenic form

1. Drink Mutagen, gain Claw/Claw/Bite
Alchemical Allocation --> Gargle Magic Fang
Alchemical Allocation --> Gargle Magic Fang
Alchemical Allocation --> Gargle Magic Fang

You get +5 to attacks and damage in the same day, all from the same re-gargled potion, to your claw, claw, AND bite, for 20 hours a day.

This particular piece of cheese has been around for about a year and a half now, I believe. :)


Doesn't one Magic Fang apply to both claws? Then use another for the bite.


If you want the full +1 / 4 CL, you need to cast it once on each individual natural weapon. Casting it on multiple natural weapons just gives them all a +1.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Thalin wrote:

I mean, I've seen what I've seen at tables; people seem to assume that you can make the potions at the level you want. Though in fairness i've seen it on the potions listed below that are listed with a +, so who knows?

Even if you argue against, potions of barkskin +5 are in the book, and would require a 15th level caster. So you're looking at 4 hours of barksin. Heroism would "only" be an hour 40 minutes. The potion of greater magic fang +5 also exists, and that is 20th caster level.

Whether these exist or not, the Pathfinder Society rules are clear: When you purchase a potion, you do so a the lowest possible caster level. For barkskin, that's CL 3 for a 30 minute long +2. For greater magic fang, it's CL 5 for 5 hours of +1. Heroism is also CL 5 for 50 minutes. The Extend Potion discovery will double these values, and the Enhance Potion discovery will make them equal to your alchemist's caster level.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
ENHenry wrote:

You missed the best one -- 20th level Greater Magic Fang potion. It has a version that lets you buff one natural attack at +5. So:

Alchemist with the Discovery to give claw and bite attacks to his mutagenic form

1. Drink Mutagen, gain Claw/Claw/Bite
Alchemical Allocation --> Gargle Magic Fang
Alchemical Allocation --> Gargle Magic Fang
Alchemical Allocation --> Gargle Magic Fang

You get +5 to attacks and damage in the same day, all from the same re-gargled potion, to your claw, claw, AND bite, for 20 hours a day.

This particular piece of cheese has been around for about a year and a half now, I believe. :)

This is only if you're able to acquire said potion at CL 20, which is not something that a GM is obligated to allow. In PFS it's straight illegal.


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Ughbash wrote:
If you want to blow 7k of your wealth every day go for it.

Y U NO read before you post?


with the Enhance potion discovery, all potions are able to function at a caster level equal to your alchemist level.

Liberty's Edge Star Voter 2015

Brambleman wrote:
with the Extend potion discovery, all potions are able to function at a caster level equal to your alchemist level.

Well I, for one, don't think this is even that impressive a trick by 20th level. It's decent, but hardly the most impressive thing ever.

This trick's being powerful is predicated on a lower level character getting ahold of CL 20 potions and then reusing them, and if they can do it, it is indeed powerful. But by the time those potions are your CL? Eh.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Brambleman wrote:
with the Extend potion discovery, all potions are able to function at a caster level equal to your alchemist level.

Well I, for one, don't think this is even that impressive a trick by 20th level. It's decent, but hardly the most impressive thing ever.

This trick's being powerful is predicated on a lower level character getting ahold of CL 20 potions and then reusing them, and if they can do it, it is indeed powerful. But by the time those potions are your CL? Eh.

Edit: It was Enhance Potion, not extend. Typo

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16 , Star Voter 2014

Brambleman wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Brambleman wrote:
with the Extend potion discovery, all potions are able to function at a caster level equal to your alchemist level.

Well I, for one, don't think this is even that impressive a trick by 20th level. It's decent, but hardly the most impressive thing ever.

This trick's being powerful is predicated on a lower level character getting ahold of CL 20 potions and then reusing them, and if they can do it, it is indeed powerful. But by the time those potions are your CL? Eh.

Edit: It was Enhance Potion, not extend. Typo

Yes, this is the real advantage for an alchemist, if you take the enhance potion discovery (available at level 2) then you can use alchemical allocation at, let's say level 14, to gargle a Barkskin potion and treat it as if it had a caster level of 14, which gives you a +5 nat. armor bonus instead of +2.

Even better, you could use the aforementioned Greater Magic Fang awesomeness to enhance all of your attacks up to a +4 with a single Greater Magic Fang potion, lasting 14 hours.

Even BETTER: if you can find a Summoner with the Brew Potion feat, he could make you a Greater Invisibility potion since he gets it as a level 3 spell unlike everyone else. Then you use THAT potion with alchemical allocation, get Greater Invis for 14 rounds. If you were a Vivisectionist, this means free sneak attacks for a whole encounter.

Now, you do have to realize that you're using up a bunch of Alchemical Allocation extracts here, and the most level 2 extracts per day you can ever have is 5. However, if you were going for pure savings and wanted to use a ton of 3rd-level potions, then you could make potions of Alchemical Allocation, which is a 2nd-level spell, and get the benefits of 3rd-level potions for that price.


cartmanbeck wrote:

Yes, this is the real advantage for an alchemist, if you take the enhance potion discovery (available at level 2) then you can use alchemical allocation at, let's say level 14, to gargle a Barkskin potion and treat it as if it had a caster level of 14, which gives you a +5 nat. armor bonus instead of +2.

OR, you could just do the exact same thing in 1 less round by drinking a 2nd level extract of barkskin instead of the alchemical allocation. Sure, Alchemical Allocation stops you from having to have the barkskin formula in your book and it's more versatile, but let's face it, if you're going to do this at the beginning of the first battle of every day, who cares about the versatility?

cartmanbeck wrote:
Even better, you could use the aforementioned Greater Magic Fang awesomeness to enhance all of your attacks up to a +4 with a single Greater Magic Fang potion, lasting 14 hours.

Again, no you can't. GMF gives the variable bonus to ONE natural weapon, or +1 to all natural weapons.


MyTThor wrote:


OR, you could just do the exact same thing in 1 less round by drinking a 2nd level extract of barkskin instead of the alchemical allocation. Sure, Alchemical Allocation stops you from having to have the barkskin formula in your book and it's more versatile, but let's face it, if you're going to do this at the beginning of the first battle of every day, who cares about the versatility?

Can't extend extracts. Can extend potions.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16 , Star Voter 2014

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MyTThor wrote:
cartmanbeck wrote:

Yes, this is the real advantage for an alchemist, if you take the enhance potion discovery (available at level 2) then you can use alchemical allocation at, let's say level 14, to gargle a Barkskin potion and treat it as if it had a caster level of 14, which gives you a +5 nat. armor bonus instead of +2.

OR, you could just do the exact same thing in 1 less round by drinking a 2nd level extract of barkskin instead of the alchemical allocation. Sure, Alchemical Allocation stops you from having to have the barkskin formula in your book and it's more versatile, but let's face it, if you're going to do this at the beginning of the first battle of every day, who cares about the versatility?

cartmanbeck wrote:
Even better, you could use the aforementioned Greater Magic Fang awesomeness to enhance all of your attacks up to a +4 with a single Greater Magic Fang potion, lasting 14 hours.

Again, no you can't. GMF gives the variable bonus to ONE natural weapon, or +1 to all natural weapons.

Yes, you can. As shown above, you do the following:

Drink AA extract, then gargle GMF potion for your first claw, +4 lasting 14 hours.
Drink AA extract, then gargle GMF potion for your second claw, +4 lasting 14 hours.
Drink AA extract, then gargle GMF potion for your bite, +4 lasting 14 hours.
You haven't expended a single potion. You've just saved 2250gp, since three GMF potions would normally cost 750gp each.

EDIT: You've also saved yourself 3 level 3 extracts by trading out 3 level 2 ones. Nice trade, I'd say.

THAT is the power of the alchemist. It's fiscally responsible to be one.


cartmanbeck wrote:


THAT is the power of the alchemist. It's fiscally responsible to be one.

I'll be quoting this every time the group looks at me in askance when I tell them that the next eight hours are quiet time for me instead of bar hopping.


Mergy wrote:

This is incorrect. When you purchase a potion or scroll in PFS, the item is at the lowest possible caster level. A potion of barkskin is caster level 3, and a scroll of grease is DC 11.

Please check your facts before you spread misinformation.

I do not think that is accurate, Mergy. While your words are correct I think your interpretation is wrong. Let me put it this way:

The "lowest possible caster level" to create a potion of Greater Magic Fang +2 is level 8. Thus when you buy a potion of Greater Magic Fang +5 it is purchased at caster level 8.

The "lowest possible caster level" to create a potion of Barkskin +5 is level 12. Thus when you buy a potion of Barkskin +5 it is purchased at caster level 12.

Shadow Lodge

Thalin wrote:
I mean, I've seen what I've seen at tables; people seem to assume that you can make the potions at the level you want. Though in fairness i've seen it on the potions listed below that are listed with a +, so who knows?

I know, because I read the guide to PFS and the FAQ? Maybe you and the folks you see doing this should take the time to do that.

Quote:
Even if you argue against, potions of barkskin +5 are in the book, and would require a 15th level caster. So you're looking at 4 hours of barksin. Heroism would "only" be an hour 40 minutes. The potion of greater magic fang +5 also exists, and that is 20th caster level.

Shy of ignoring the rules, they do not exist in PFS.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Lune wrote:
Mergy wrote:

This is incorrect. When you purchase a potion or scroll in PFS, the item is at the lowest possible caster level. A potion of barkskin is caster level 3, and a scroll of grease is DC 11.

Please check your facts before you spread misinformation.

I do not think that is accurate, Mergy. While your words are correct I think your interpretation is wrong. Let me put it this way:

The "lowest possible caster level" to create a potion of Greater Magic Fang +2 is level 8. Thus when you buy a potion of Greater Magic Fang +5 it is purchased at caster level 8.

The "lowest possible caster level" to create a potion of Barkskin +5 is level 12. Thus when you buy a potion of Barkskin +5 it is purchased at caster level 12.

PFS Guide to Organized Play Version 4.1 wrote:

Potions, Scrolls and Wands

All potions, scrolls, wands, and other consumables
are made by clerics, druids, or wizards in Pathfinder
Society Organized Play. The only exceptions are spells
that are not on the cleric, druid, or wizard spell list. For
example, a scroll of lesser restoration must be purchased as
a 2nd-level scroll off the cleric spell list and may not be
purchased as a 1st-level scroll off the paladin spell list. If
a spell appears at different levels on two differen t lists,
use the lower level spell to determine cost. As an example,
poison would be priced as a 3rd-level druid spell instead of
a 4th-level cleric spell. All potions, scrolls, and wands are
available only at the minimum caster level unless found
at a higher caster level on a Chronicle sheet.

Bolded for extreme emphasis. If you are buying a CL 20 potion in PFS and it's not on your chronicle sheet, you're breaking the rules of PFS.

Shadow Lodge

Lune wrote:
The "lowest possible caster level" to create a potion of Barkskin +5 is level 12. Thus when you buy a potion of Barkskin +5 it is purchased at caster level 12.

Where is this "Potion of barkskin +5" listed?

There is no such item. There is a potion of barkskin and if you increase the caster level to 12 it is +5, but there is no item called a potion of barkskin +5.


0gre wrote:
Lune wrote:
The "lowest possible caster level" to create a potion of Barkskin +5 is level 12. Thus when you buy a potion of Barkskin +5 it is purchased at caster level 12.

Where is this "Potion of barkskin +5" listed?

There is no such item. There is a potion of barkskin and if you increase the caster level to 12 it is +5, but there is no item called a potion of barkskin +5.

Listed right here:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/potions


Was going to post that. Starbuck_II beat me to it. Thanx.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Deadmanwalking wrote:
StreamOfTheSky wrote:
Is getting CL 20 potions that hard? In PF can't you emulate higher CL for an item by making the spellcraft/whatver check? Seriously, I don't know, the crafting rules confuse the hell out of me. Pretty sure a CL 5 guy can use spellcraft to make something that requires CL 10 with a high enough check and it then counts as being CL 10 even though the guy that made it was CL 5. So why could you not also inflate the item's CL with higher skill check, too?
This is not how crafting works. You can potentially make things (like Wondrous Items) that normally require a higher CL than you have, or spells you lack (which is what you're thinking of), but you can't do the same on spell duplication items. You simply cannot make potions or wands of spells you can't cast, or at higher caster level than you have, and that is a hard limit.

Actually, you can. The CL is not a requirement so you never need to have it. the requirement is:

PRD wrote:
In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.

So the alchemist only need to be capable to hit a DC of 25 (CL 20+5) and have the right extracts prepared.

Some GM will say that the DC is 30 because they consider not being level 20 a missing requirement, but that don't follow RAW, as, to repeat it again, the CL is not a requirement.

Independently from what of the two DC you use crafting a CL 20 potion is very easy for an alchemist.
Using Craft (alchemy): Int 16 (+3), class skill (+3) Masterwork equipment (+2), skill focus (alchemy) (3): total +11, take 10 = +21.
So he either need 4 skill ranks or 9 if his GM use the higher DC.

Edit: point out at the forum section -> Rules Questions. Not Pathfinder Society. Probably some moderator has moved the thread, but now all the PFS discussion has very little relevance to the OP question.


Starbuck_II wrote:
0gre wrote:
Lune wrote:
The "lowest possible caster level" to create a potion of Barkskin +5 is level 12. Thus when you buy a potion of Barkskin +5 it is purchased at caster level 12.

Where is this "Potion of barkskin +5" listed?

There is no such item. There is a potion of barkskin and if you increase the caster level to 12 it is +5, but there is no item called a potion of barkskin +5.

Listed right here:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/potions

I'll tell you what, next time you play PFS why don't you ask your gm if you can buy a potion of barkskin (or greater magic fang) +5 and tell us what happened. I don't think most (if any) PFS gm's would allow that.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Some Random Dood wrote:
Starbuck_II wrote:
0gre wrote:
Lune wrote:
The "lowest possible caster level" to create a potion of Barkskin +5 is level 12. Thus when you buy a potion of Barkskin +5 it is purchased at caster level 12.

Where is this "Potion of barkskin +5" listed?

There is no such item. There is a potion of barkskin and if you increase the caster level to 12 it is +5, but there is no item called a potion of barkskin +5.

Listed right here:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/potions
I'll tell you what, next time you play PFS why don't you ask your gm if you can buy a potion of barkskin (or greater magic fang) +5 and tell us what happened. I don't think most (if any) PFS gm's would allow that.

As I've already posted, it's against the rules, and it is printed in the guide specifically that it is against the rules.

As for crafting a 20th level potion while not 20th level, that doesn't seem legit.


Mergy wrote:
Some Random Dood wrote:
Starbuck_II wrote:
0gre wrote:
Lune wrote:
The "lowest possible caster level" to create a potion of Barkskin +5 is level 12. Thus when you buy a potion of Barkskin +5 it is purchased at caster level 12.

Where is this "Potion of barkskin +5" listed?

There is no such item. There is a potion of barkskin and if you increase the caster level to 12 it is +5, but there is no item called a potion of barkskin +5.

Listed right here:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/potions
I'll tell you what, next time you play PFS why don't you ask your gm if you can buy a potion of barkskin (or greater magic fang) +5 and tell us what happened. I don't think most (if any) PFS gm's would allow that.

As I've already posted, it's against the rules, and it is printed in the guide specifically that it is against the rules.

As for crafting a 20th level potion while not 20th level, that doesn't seem legit.

And I agree with you.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

For the guy that has FAQed my post:

FAQ wrote:

Pearl of Power: What is the caster level required to create this item?

Though the listed Caster Level for a pearl of power is 17th, that caster level is not part of the Requirements listing for that item. Therefore, the only caster level requirement for a pearl of power is the character has to be able to cast spells of the desired level.

However, it makes sense that the minimum caster level of the pearl is the minimum caster level necessary to cast spells of that level--it would be strange for a 2nd-level pearl to be CL 1st.

For example, a 3rd-level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item can create a 1st-level pearl, with a minimum caster level of 1. He can set the caster level to whatever he wants (assuming he can meet the crafting DC), though the pearl's caster level has no effect on its powers (other than its ability to resist dispel magic). If he wants to make a 2nd-level pearl, the caster level has to be at least 3, as wizards can't cast 2nd-level spells until they reach character level 3. He can even try to make a 3rd-level pearl, though the minimum caster level is 5, and he adds +5 to the DC because he doesn't meet the "able to cast 3rd-level spells" requirement.

—Sean K Reynolds, 08/18/10

The bolded part for the ability to craft items with a CL above your character level.

For the part about CL not being a prerequisite:

"Sean K Reynolds" Dec, 1 2009 wrote:

{Any sense for if/when an official errata might be produced?}

I've mentioned it to Jason as of now.

{In this case, I can see level now being a prereq since you can bypass prereqs by adding +5 to the craft DC, but I have no idea if that is really intended.}

Like I said, Caster Level is not a prereq for creating an item unless it's actually listed in the Requirements line. For example, there's no reason why a 1st-level pearl of power requires a 17th-level caster (and the Requirements line only specifies that you have to be able to cast the spell level in question).

{Another recent example is has positive energy changed in how it affects incorporeal undead? The PF rules indicate it may have, although almost everyone who voiced an opinion thought the PF rules were unintentionally changed. That's a tough argument to pitch to a DM though. [i]But the rules are wrong!}

Has Jason weighed in on a thread about this? Can you provide me a link to a thread where people are asking this question so I can point him at it?

For more "enlightenment " you can read this thread about how easy it is to craft magic items under the current rules and FAQ.

It was a eye opener for me.

Repeated Edit: point out at the forum section -> Rules Questions. Not Pathfinder Society. Probably some moderator has moved the thread, but now all the PFS discussion has very little relevance to the OP question.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Diego Rossi wrote:

For the guy that has FAQed my post:

FAQ wrote:

Pearl of Power: What is the caster level required to create this item?

Though the listed Caster Level for a pearl of power is 17th, that caster level is not part of the Requirements listing for that item. Therefore, the only caster level requirement for a pearl of power is the character has to be able to cast spells of the desired level.

However, it makes sense that the minimum caster level of the pearl is the minimum caster level necessary to cast spells of that level--it would be strange for a 2nd-level pearl to be CL 1st.

For example, a 3rd-level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item can create a 1st-level pearl, with a minimum caster level of 1. He can set the caster level to whatever he wants (assuming he can meet the crafting DC), though the pearl's caster level has no effect on its powers (other than its ability to resist dispel magic). If he wants to make a 2nd-level pearl, the caster level has to be at least 3, as wizards can't cast 2nd-level spells until they reach character level 3. He can even try to make a 3rd-level pearl, though the minimum caster level is 5, and he adds +5 to the DC because he doesn't meet the "able to cast 3rd-level spells" requirement.

—Sean K Reynolds, 08/18/10

The bolded part for the ability to craft items with a CL above your character level.

For the part about CL not being a prerequisite:

"Sean K Reynolds" Dec, 1 2009 wrote:

{Any sense for if/when an official errata might be produced?}

I've mentioned it to Jason as of now.

{In this case, I can see level now being a prereq since you can bypass prereqs by adding +5 to the craft DC, but I have no idea if that is really intended.}

Like I said, Caster Level is not a prereq for creating an item unless it's actually listed in the Requirements line. For example, there's no reason why a 1st-level pearl of power requires a 17th-level caster (and the Requirements line only specifies that you have to be able to cast the spell level in

...

I disagree with your interpretation. Those are wondrous items that SKR is referring to, and those don't mimic a spell the same way potions and scrolls do.

To determine the cost of the potion your character makes, you multiply 25gp x the spell level x the level of your caster. Since it doesn't make sense that a 10th level caster brewing a 20th level potion makes it cheaper than a 20th level caster brewing the same potion, something is up with your interpretation. You cannot make a scroll or potion at a caster level higher than your own.

Furthermore, this aspect of the FAQ states that a spell is consumed when a character brews a potion. How did a low level caster manage to prepare a CL 20 version of the spell to brew into their potion?


Mergy: For what it's worth, I agree, if you were CL 10 but crafting at CL 20, you would pay based on it being CL 20, which it is. Just like a CL 20 wizard making a 3rd level potion at CL 10 would pay for CL 10, not CL 20.

But I disagree with you on item crafting. How can you use spellcraft to make an item w/ a CL 10 above yours in one case, but not in another? (and neither case is the item's CL a requirement)

Shadow Lodge

Dot


Quote:
As I've already posted, it's against the rules, and it is printed in the guide specifically that it is against the rules.

Again, I disagree. The rules that you posted do not restrict the purchase of potions created at higher caster level. As I previously explained, the rules that you posted, in fact, support that they can be purchased but have to be purchased at the lowest caster level capable of making that particular potion.

The potions are listed as something that you can purchase here:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/potions

The rules that you posted mean that the "lowest possible caster level" to create a potion of Barkskin +5 is level 12. Thus when you buy a potion of Barkskin +5 it is purchased at caster level 12. You can not purchase a Barkskin +5 potion set at caster level 13 or above. THAT is against the rules.

Clearly it is not against the rules to purchase the Barkskin +5 potion or it would not be listed as something that is purchasable.

That being said, I do not play in PFS but have friends that do. They are allowed to purchase such things if they have the proper amount of influence with their house and have reached a high enough reknown to be able to do so (not sure if I'm using the correct terms here). PFS has in place limitations on what you need to have to be able to purchase such items. This is something that most home games do not have. And I agree, that as a DM it would be very hard to come by CL 20 potions. However, refering to PFS play this is perfectly legal.

If you believe it is not then I would like to see a rule in print that explicitly disallows it.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Elixirs are wondrous items, and can be used with alchemical allocation. This is where alchemical allocation is strong. I suggest the elixir of shadewalking.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Mergy wrote:

I disagree with your interpretation. Those are wondrous items that SKR is referring to, and those don't mimic a spell the same way potions and scrolls do.

To determine the cost of the potion your character makes, you multiply 25gp x the spell level x the level of your caster. Since it doesn't make sense that a 10th level caster brewing a 20th level potion makes it cheaper than a 20th level caster brewing the same potion, something is up with your interpretation. You cannot make a scroll or potion at a caster level higher than your own.

Furthermore, this aspect of the FAQ states that a spell is consumed when a character brews a potion. How did a low level caster manage to prepare a CL 20 version of the spell to brew into their potion?

You are assuming that I mean something different from what I did say.

I never cited the potion cost. Even in the wondrous items costs if the final effect is influenced by the Caster Level of the item the price is determined by the CL of the item. But nowhere it is required that the crafter has that level.
By RAW you can make a potion (or any other magic item) with a CL of 20, paying for a CL of 20, even if your character level is 5.
Simply, where appropriate, you have to pay for an item of that caster level.
It is all in the linked thread, read it before repeating objections that have been already been confuted.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Diego Rossi wrote:
Mergy wrote:

I disagree with your interpretation. Those are wondrous items that SKR is referring to, and those don't mimic a spell the same way potions and scrolls do.

To determine the cost of the potion your character makes, you multiply 25gp x the spell level x the level of your caster. Since it doesn't make sense that a 10th level caster brewing a 20th level potion makes it cheaper than a 20th level caster brewing the same potion, something is up with your interpretation. You cannot make a scroll or potion at a caster level higher than your own.

Furthermore, this aspect of the FAQ states that a spell is consumed when a character brews a potion. How did a low level caster manage to prepare a CL 20 version of the spell to brew into their potion?

You are assuming that I mean something different from what I did say.

I never cited the potion cost. Even in the wondrous items costs if the final effect is influenced by the Caster Level of the item the price is determined by the CL of the item. But nowhere it is required that the crafter has that level.
By RAW you can make a potion (or any other magic item) with a CL of 20, paying for a CL of 20, even if your character level is 5.
Simply, where appropriate, you have to pay for an item of that caster level.
It is all in the linked thread, read it before repeating objections that have been already been confuted.

That is not RAW and I will continue to click FAQ on it until someone tells you that you can indeed not do that. You take the creator's caster level when you create a potion. I suppose he could choose to lower it, but there is no way to increase it beyond what it usually is.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Lune wrote:
Quote:
As I've already posted, it's against the rules, and it is printed in the guide specifically that it is against the rules.

Again, I disagree. The rules that you posted do not restrict the purchase of potions created at higher caster level. As I previously explained, the rules that you posted, in fact, support that they can be purchased but have to be purchased at the lowest caster level capable of making that particular potion.

The potions are listed as something that you can purchase here:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/potions

The rules that you posted mean that the "lowest possible caster level" to create a potion of Barkskin +5 is level 12. Thus when you buy a potion of Barkskin +5 it is purchased at caster level 12. You can not purchase a Barkskin +5 potion set at caster level 13 or above. THAT is against the rules.

Clearly it is not against the rules to purchase the Barkskin +5 potion or it would not be listed as something that is purchasable.

That being said, I do not play in PFS but have friends that do. They are allowed to purchase such things if they have the proper amount of influence with their house and have reached a high enough reknown to be able to do so (not sure if I'm using the correct terms here). PFS has in place limitations on what you need to have to be able to purchase such items. This is something that most home games do not have. And I agree, that as a DM it would be very hard to come by CL 20 potions. However, refering to PFS play this is perfectly legal.

If you believe it is not then I would like to see a rule in print that explicitly disallows it.

I've already posted a rule from the guide that explicitly disallows it. If you are having problems with reading that, take it to the PFS boards so they can shoot you down.

EDIT: For all the people who are still going to argue about it, a link with a post from a developer.

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