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Horse Animal Companion


Rules Questions

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Is a Horse always assumed to be a light horse when chosen as an animal companion?
If so, would it still be appropriate to apply the Simple Advanced template to the base animal companion stats to have a heavy horse?

I ask because the Horse in the Beastiary differentiates between Light and Heavy, but animal companion rules make no mention of either.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Animal companions have their own progression table, you don't get to add templates to them.

Horse N Large animal
Init +2; Senses low-light vision, scent; Perception +6
Defense: AC 11, touch 11, flat-footed 9 (+2 Dex, –1 size);
hp 15 (2d8+6)
Fort +6, Ref +5, Will +1
Offense: Speed 50 ft.; Melee 2 hooves –2 (1d4+1); Space 10 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Statistics: Str 16, Dex 14, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 7
Base Atk +1; CMB +5; CMD 17 (21 vs. trip)
Feats Endurance, RunB
Skills Perception +6
SQ docile

Horse (animal companion)
Starting Statistics: Size Large; Speed 50 ft.; AC +4 natural armor; Attack bite (1d4), 2 hooves* (1d6); Ability Scores Str 16, Dex 13, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6; Special Qualities low-light vision, scent. *This is a secondary natural attack, see Combat for more information on how secondary attacks work.
HD 2, BAB +1, Saves fort +3, Ref +3; will +0 (modified by stats to: +5/+4/+1)

All the bolded parts are different from the basic horse. It is a different creature and, for it, the heavy/light difference is inappropriate.
It already has some of the heavy horse abilities, some ability that a heavy horse hasn't and it is lacking some other heavy horse ability.

Andoran

3 people marked this as a favorite.

What Diego said.

But the Animal Comanion version improves as you do, so at 1st level, it's roughly equivalent to a light horse. At 4th it's getting on about Heavy Horse level (some things higher, some lower), and by 8th? It's some kind of man-eating murder horse, superior to normal horses in basically all ways.


Yeah, I realize Animal Companions get pretty nasty, but the rules are horribly unclear on these types of situations, so I just wanted to be sure. :)

Andoran

Neo2151 wrote:
Yeah, I realize Animal Companions get pretty nasty, but the rules are horribly unclear on these types of situations, so I just wanted to be sure. :)

No, they aren't. Animal Companions use the Animal Companion rules. Full stop. If you are referencing a Bestiary stat-block on an animal companion you have made a mistake. Stop, go back, and use the rules in the Druid section.

Hopefully, thinking of it this way will help avoid this situation in future. :)

Oh, and just a head's up (and slight exception to the above): At 4th level, when the horse gets Combat Training? It's hooves do become primary attacks (just like non-Animal Companion horses). The nice people at Paizo say so. :)


By "these types of situations" I meant that there are two different types of "Horse" (not counting Pony). The Animal Companion rules ignore this, but never mention specifically that they're ignoring it. There is nothing there that says something like, "Use these stats for both Light and Heavy horses" like there is with the different Cats.

Osirion

As it just so happens, there is a brand new and relatively inexpensive PDF resource which answers all of your questions
available right here at Paizo.com.


If Animal companion is grated by druid level then yes. If it's a Bonded mount from Paladin then you get a Heavy horse.

CRB wrote:
The second type of bond allows a paladin to gain the service of an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal steed to serve her in her crusade against evil. This mount is usually a heavy horse (for a Medium paladin) or a pony (for a Small paladin), although more exotic mounts, such as a boar, camel, or dog are also suitable. This mount functions as a druid's animal companion, using the paladin's level as her effective druid level.

So the rules for Druid animal companions seems to be the rules to follow. Handy thing is that Paladins get a HEAVY horse vs a horse. (get a free advanced creature template)


...... Well damn,

I never noticed that.

Andoran

1 person marked this as a favorite.
BltzKrg242 wrote:

If Animal companion is grated by druid level then yes. If it's a Bonded mount from Paladin then you get a Heavy horse.

CRB wrote:
The second type of bond allows a paladin to gain the service of an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal steed to serve her in her crusade against evil. This mount is usually a heavy horse (for a Medium paladin) or a pony (for a Small paladin), although more exotic mounts, such as a boar, camel, or dog are also suitable. This mount functions as a druid's animal companion, using the paladin's level as her effective druid level.
So the rules for Druid animal companions seems to be the rules to follow. Handy thing is that Paladins get a HEAVY horse vs a horse. (get a free advanced creature template)

Still no on that. No templates on companion. period.


Heavy horse is only generated BY a template so... yes on that.
Templates on companion as required by rules.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Diego Rossi wrote:

Animal companions have their own progression table, you don't get to add templates to them.

Horse N Large animal
Init +2; Senses low-light vision, scent; Perception +6
Defense: AC 11, touch 11, flat-footed 9 (+2 Dex, –1 size);
hp 15 (2d8+6)
Fort +6, Ref +5, Will +1
Offense: Speed 50 ft.; Melee 2 hooves –2 (1d4+1); Space 10 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Statistics: Str 16, Dex 14, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 7
Base Atk +1; CMB +5; CMD 17 (21 vs. trip)
Feats Endurance, RunB
Skills Perception +6
SQ docile

Horse (animal companion)
Starting Statistics: Size Large; Speed 50 ft.; AC +4 natural armor; Attack bite (1d4), 2 hooves* (1d6); Ability Scores Str 16, Dex 13, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6; Special Qualities low-light vision, scent. *This is a secondary natural attack, see Combat for more information on how secondary attacks work.
HD 2, BAB +1, Saves fort +3, Ref +3; will +0 (modified by stats to: +5/+4/+1)

All the bolded parts are different from the basic horse. It is a different creature and, for it, the heavy/light difference is inappropriate.
It already has some of the heavy horse abilities, some ability that a heavy horse hasn't and it is lacking some other heavy horse ability.

BltzKrg242 wrote:

If Animal companion is grated by druid level then yes. If it's a Bonded mount from Paladin then you get a Heavy horse.

CRB wrote:
The second type of bond allows a paladin to gain the service of an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal steed to serve her in her crusade against evil. This mount is usually a heavy horse (for a Medium paladin) or a pony (for a Small paladin), although more exotic mounts, such as a boar, camel, or dog are also suitable. This mount functions as a druid's animal companion, using the paladin's level as her effective druid level.
So the rules for Druid animal companions seems to be the rules to follow. Handy thing is that Paladins get a HEAVY horse vs a horse. (get a free advanced creature template)
advanced template wrote:


Rebuild Rules: AC increase natural armor by +2; Ability Scores +4 to all ability scores (except Int scores of 2 or less).

Horse N Large animal

Init +2; Senses low-light vision, scent; Perception +6
Defense: AC 15, touch 13, flat-footed 11 (+2 natural, +4 Dex, –1 size);
hp 15 (2d8+12)
Fort +10, Ref +7, Will +3
Offense: Speed 50 ft.; Melee 1 bite +7 (1d4+) 2 hooves +7 (1d4+2); Space 10 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Statistics: Str 20, Dex 18, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 17, Cha 11
Base Atk +1;
Feats Endurance, RunB
Skills Perception +8
SQ (docile) no as he is combat trained.

plus the 4th level advancement

4th-Level Advancement: Ability Scores Str +2, Con +2; Special Qualities combat trained (see the Handle Animal skill).

Plus Int 6.

Fairly impressive.

Andoran

2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
BltzKrg242 wrote:

Heavy horse is only generated BY a template so... yes on that.

Templates on companion as required by rules.

The level 4 bump on the companion entry represents that shift from "light" to "heavy"(increased power and combat training). Since the paladin gains the companion after 4, it has already made that jump right away, so it's starting as "heavy". They really need to address this in a FAQ. That legacy wording from previous editions really throws in some big wrenches.


Since there is currently no wording that in any way indicates that the level 4 bump transforms your Appaloosa or Arabian into a Clydesdale or Percheron, I'd say that you may have read into this a bit much.
A heavy horse is a whole different breed of animal.

Andoran

BltzKrg242 wrote:

Since there is currently no wording that in any way indicates that the level 4 bump transforms your Appaloosa or Arabian into a Clydesdale or Percheron, I'd say that you may have read into this a bit much.

A heavy horse is a whole different breed of animal.

That breed logic can't be used, as you have a wolf that goes as big as a horse between levels. The mechanics always fit "real world".


Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Shar Tahl wrote:
Still no on that. No templates on companion. period.

In addition to this being wrong in relation to the Paladin's heavy horse template... Paladin mounts also pick up the Celestial template later on. So yeah, templates on companion.


Shar Tahl wrote:
That breed logic can't be used, as you have a wolf that goes as big as a horse between levels. The mechanics always fit "real world".

This mechanic is what you get at 4th level. It's still the same wolf, it just got bigger. It doesn't convert from a wolf to a dire wolf.

Same with a druid's horse... it just gets better at 4th. It doesn't convert from normal to Heavy. And for a Paladin's mount, it starts as a heavy and gets better.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Modules Subscriber
BltzKrg242 wrote:
Shar Tahl wrote:
That breed logic can't be used, as you have a wolf that goes as big as a horse between levels. The mechanics always fit "real world".

This mechanic is what you get at 4th level. It's still the same wolf, it just got bigger. It doesn't convert from a wolf to a dire wolf.

Same with a druid's horse... it just gets better at 4th. It doesn't convert from normal to Heavy. And for a Paladin's mount, it starts as a heavy and gets better.

This is how I read it:

You can say it starts as a heavy, but its stats are identical to the druid animal companion's horse, so it doesn't really matter what you call it--you don't apply the extra template, as there are no animal companion stats for anything but just "horse", and those stats are not the same as the Bestiary stats (nor are they intended to be). Animal companions are special creatures that follow their own rules, like familiars and eidolons.


Why would you read it as a horse when the entry specifically indicates Heavy Horse?

Quote:
This mount is usually a heavy horse (for a Medium paladin) or a pony (for a Small paladin)

That's like substituting a Goblin in an adventure when it is specifically indicated to be a Hobgoblin.

Quote:
THIS mount functions as a druid's animal companion, using the paladin's level as her effective druid level.

You use the same mechanics as a druid's animal companion but use THIS animal.

How can that be read differently?

Cheliax

1 person marked this as a favorite.
BltzKrg242 wrote:

Why would you read it as a horse when the entry specifically indicates Heavy Horse?

Quote:
This mount is usually a heavy horse (for a Medium paladin) or a pony (for a Small paladin)

That's like substituting a Goblin in an adventure when it is specifically indicated to be a Hobgoblin.

Quote:
THIS mount functions as a druid's animal companion, using the paladin's level as her effective druid level.

You use the same mechanics as a druid's animal companion but use THIS animal.

How can that be read differently?

You get an animal companion with your paladin level as your druid level. We look at the horse animal companion stats and take that. The fact that they call it a heavy horse is not a reason to give it the advanced template when there is no precedent to do so for any other animal companion, or even for the small sized paladin mount. If a medium paladin gets a camel as a mount, does it not get the advanced template because the text didn't call out "heavy camel"? No, there is no way it is intended to have an advanced mount for only one type of animal companion.


Pathfinder Modules Subscriber
BltzKrg242 wrote:

Why would you read it as a horse when the entry specifically indicates Heavy Horse?

Quote:
This mount is usually a heavy horse (for a Medium paladin) or a pony (for a Small paladin)

That's like substituting a Goblin in an adventure when it is specifically indicated to be a Hobgoblin.

Quote:
THIS mount functions as a druid's animal companion, using the paladin's level as her effective druid level.

You use the same mechanics as a druid's animal companion but use THIS animal.

How can that be read differently?

That animal doesn't exist as far as the druid's animal companion system is concerned.


Pathfinder Modules Subscriber

Also, "heavy camel" sounds like the next "latest thing" in progressive metal.


Claiming that the advanced template should be given to an animal companion is a real stretch of RAW and, presumably, RAI. It doesn't say that anywhere. Yes, it says heavy horse. But there is no druid animal companion called a 'heavy horse'. Since animal companions use the animal companin stats exclusively, with absolutely no relation to the statblocks in the bestiaries, this is a pretty deliberate misinterpretatin of the rules. Not only that, but it gives anyone taking a horse as their mount a huge boon that someone doesn't get if they choose to take a camel or a boar or a pony. Unless it explicitly states thatthe advanced template should be applied, you're extrapolating a great deal from one word without any precedent.


It's being extrapolated because the clarity is missing. There are two types of horse in PF. Animal companions don't reflect this. They could reflect this easily (again, look at the Cat descriptions... it says specifically to "use these stats for" and then lists various types of cats.)
So when the Paladin mount ability references using a Heavy Horse for a medium character (and I'm glad I asked now, because it was the Paladin Mount I had in mind originally!) and then it says to use an effective Druid level animal companion, we can't, because there's no Heavy Horse option on the available animal companions list.
So logic dictates that either there's no such thing as a Paladin mount, or they Advanced Simple template is applied to the Horse animal companion to reflect that it is, in fact, a heavy horse (and, as pointed out above, Paladin already breaks the "rules" on no templates on companions at level 11 when it becomes a Celestial Heavy Horse.)


You're right, the is some definite ambiguity there. I just think that applying the advanced template is a lot more of a stretch than going with the basic rules.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

No, Neo, you either get a heavy horse from the bestiary and then you add the the effects of the 4th-Level Advancement for a horse animal companion or you get the animal companion horse with all his benefits. You don't get to add a advanced template to the already modified horse from the animal companions. I.e. you don't get a "horse" with a starting +6 natural armor. No best of two world deal.

If you use the text in the Divine bond ability, your starting animal is a heavy horse, period not a "Animal companion: horse, with the advanced template". That is a different thing from a heavy horse.


But where does it say that? Nowhere that I can find, that's for sure.

Even the pdf that Wolfsnap linked to (thanks for the find, btw!) has a sidebar in it that addresses this issue and basically covers it with the "use the horses in this book or check with your GM since the printed rules don't make sense" stamp.


For that matter, where does it say "Animal Companions may not have templates?" I don't see that in the CRB anywhere.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

You can use 2 piece of text:

Animal companion: Horse and the stat you find there (as those are the rules for animal companions)

or

Heavy horse and the stat you find there (and then apply to it the effects of the animal companions advancements, but it replace not add the stats of the horse animal companion as that is what the paladin line offer)

you are trying to use

Animal companion + heavy horse but there is no text supporting that.

You are trying to call that the lack of text saying "this is prohibited" mean "it is allowed", but what you need is text that say "this is allowed" and that don't exist.


Diego Rossi wrote:


Heavy horse and the stat you find there (and then apply to it the effects of the animal companions advancements, but it replace not add the stats of the horse animal companion as that is what the paladin line offer)

THIS is what RAW is indicating.


A horse is a horse, of course, of course...

Does it matter, what the 1 PS you're riding is called - technically?

Since there is no such thing listed as heavy horse in the druid's animal companion list, your assumptions are wrong, 'tis all.
You use what's given in the entry under a druid's class feature Nature Bond and go from there. I don't understand where all the misunderstanding and looking for loopholes is coming from.

And of course a wolf at 7th level becomes a dire wolf. *grins*

Ruyan.


Exactly. There is no animal listed as a heavy horse in the druids animal companion list. So you must use the listing from the Bestiary.
And then modify as per the druid animal companion rules.

Andoran

1 person marked this as a favorite.
BltzKrg242 wrote:

Exactly. There is no animal listed as a heavy horse in the druids animal companion list. So you must use the listing from the Bestiary.

And then modify as per the druid animal companion rules.

The Druid Animal Companions aren't modified versions of Bestiary creatures. They're carefully balanced creatures based on an 'animal companion' template very loosely modified based on the creatures from the Bestiary they represent.

There are no rules for doing what you suggest, therefore the rules aren't asking you to do it.


Quote:
The second type of bond allows a paladin to gain the service of an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal steed to serve her in her crusade against evil. This mount is usually a heavy horse

This is the rule for doing what Paizo suggests, not what I suggest.

Andoran

BltzKrg242 wrote:


This is the rule for doing what Paizo suggests, not what I suggest.

*sigh* Heavy horse isn't just a game rule term, it's an actual English term for a large horse (the kind suitable for a knight). There is no proof that it was not being used in that context in that particular (non-rules) passage. Since it can't be rules text (as that animal companion doesn't exist) it has to be flavor.

Cheliax

the devs have even stated several times that "no advanced template" for pally mounts. its already included in the "level 5" package

Cheliax

by all means your horse can be morbidly obese, and weigh as much as you want, but it doesnt gain a template for being overweight, or politely put "heavy"


Quote:

Exactly. There is no animal listed as a heavy horse in the druids animal companion list. So you must use the listing from the Bestiary.

And then modify as per the druid animal companion rules.

And why does every other suggestion for a paladin's mount indicate an animal that is found "as is" on the animal companion list? Ready to use and happy to go? Pure coincidence, eh?

If you *would* start with a heavy horse, you could not follow the game mechanics of an animal companion, since there's no advancement given for a heavy horse.

Ruyan.


Name Violation wrote:
the devs have even stated several times that "no advanced template" for pally mounts. its already included in the "level 5" package

Any chance that someone could find these statements? Links?


Pathfinder Modules Subscriber

Could you please source this so that we have something to settle these threads? I believe it was their intent; I just haven't managed to find a post.

Cheliax

2 people marked this as a favorite.
James Jacobs wrote:
Drew Epstein wrote:
Maybe James or someone else of Authority can answer this: Would a Paladin's Special Mount gain the Advanced Creature Template? Under Paladin it states that "This mount is usually a heavy horse." It foes on to say that it functions as a Druid animal companion (which has different horse stats than the horse stats in the bestiary for some reason), but does not seem to account for it being a heavy horse. Any offical word on how to handle this would be greatly appreciated.

This is a case where the rules are interfering with the words, compounded by the fact that we hadn't fully worked out how heavy horses worked yet. But despite that confusion... it's not an error.

ALL of the rules for animal companions are pretty much totally separate from the stats for animals as monsters. A close examination of the raw animal companion stat blocks listed with the druid will reveal a LOT of differences (usually pretty minor) when compared with the same animal's actual stat block in the Bestiary. This is completely intentional.

Part of the way we put balance back into the game as far as animal companions go was to give them their own advancements. A paladin's warhorse, as a result, uses the base stat block as appropriate from the list of animal companions and then improves using the big table of animal companions improvements. It doesn't interact with the Bestiary stats really at all; the only case where it WOULD is in the case of something like a boar or a deinonychus, where it lists that the animal has a special attack or quality like pounce or ferocity, in which case you'd go to the Bestiary to see how those attacks work. You'd still ignore all of the other stats you see in the Bestiary.

So in the end... your paladin won't have an Int 6 horse at all... unless you decided to put points into Intelligence as your horse leveled up, of course. The Advanced Template has nothing to do with animal companions.

bold mine

link


Thank you.


See. We told you. ;-)

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:
... So in the end... your paladin won't have an Int 6 horse at all... unless you decided to put points into Intelligence as your horse leveled up, of course. ...

This trouble me. I have no problem with using the horse animal companion, actually it is what a paladin would use when I am the GM, but it getting the enhanced intelligence was a given for me.


Pathfinder Modules Subscriber

Thank you!


RuyanVe wrote:
See. We told you. ;-)

What you told me was not supported by the text in the book. Three new paragraphs from the developer were needed to clarify.

Quote:
This is a case where the rules are interfering with the words, compounded by the fact that we hadn't fully worked out how heavy horses worked yet.

So don't get snarky.


Maybe my words (and the words of many others) were not as clearly supported by the book as you needed them, but apart from that, we claimed the same as James did/does.

Oh, and i like splitting hairs.

Diego wrote:
[...]but it getting the enhanced intelligence was a given for me.
Where does it say the bonded mount doesn't? The rules state
Quote:
[that b]onded mounts have an Intelligence of at least 6.

Here the specific trumps the generic.

Ruyan.


Deadmanwalking wrote:

What Diego said.

..........and by 8th? It's some kind of man-eating murder horse, superior to normal horses in basically all ways.

I want one of these. I see a template in the works....

Cheliax

DungeonmasterCal wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:

What Diego said.

..........and by 8th? It's some kind of man-eating murder horse, superior to normal horses in basically all ways.
I want one of these. I see a template in the works....

advanced half-fiend vampire templates

Andoran

DungeonmasterCal wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:

What Diego said.

..........and by 8th? It's some kind of man-eating murder horse, superior to normal horses in basically all ways.
I want one of these. I see a template in the works....

Say your animal comapnion eats people and that's why it's so much more badass than other horses. Now you have one. :)

More seriously, Half-Fiend (or Fiendish) do indeed seem like the right templates to start with for that.

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