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iO9 using Paizo art in article on racial diversification in RPGs


Paizo Publishing General Discussion

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link to iO9 article

Paizo Employee Developer

Yup, pretty neat, right? I get the Tor.com newsletter sent to me and the article iO9 is talking about was my coffee reading this morning. It's pretty cool to see our Seelah, Sajan, and Seoni compared to Ember.

Andoran

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Cards, Companion, Maps, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
The 8th Dwarf wrote:
link to iO9 article

The article actual comes from Tor.com (Tor Publishing), and the Full article mentions Paizo.


wthis worthy of media worthy???

I recall a thread on this topic on the wotc forum. it ended up being locked.... after some 30 something pages....

my beaf with such articles and threads is:
1: there are NO real world copied ethnicticities in dnd and regarldess on what the description says... does not mean black or white

2: ALot of people can not tell the difference between ethnicticities anyway. this does include me( cant tell you the difference between a hispanic and a ntice american indian, anmd I could not tell you the difference between a chinese person and a japanese person either)

the bottom line is that who ever griped about it first, says that wotc should do it becuase its the right thing to do....
I say no, becuase it sounds like that its just for the sake of doing it to me. It's also one of the reasons why I hope that dnd next does not have a core setting.

furthermore dnd does not have rw ethnicticities(one reason why that afopremention thread was ultimately locked hahahhaha) and neither does pathfinder.

Paizo did it right on their art. most of the crb art was done off their pathfinder Iconics and when it came to show off the various cultures, it was more in their campaign books rather than the crb, and it was done with Golarion's cultures just like the FR's 3.x books showed off their cultures.

If wotc shows more culture diversity... than they should save it for their campaign setting books.

PS: If you recall in the genious that was the creation of 4e, wotc told the fanbase that they were getting rid of the iconics.

btw: without looking it up which would you consider caucasion?
John CEna or Shaemus?

edit: this is a personal gripe on things and would do best to be ignored if you( the reader) tend to get hot headed in opinions....

also the black and white thing is an american trashheap that was leftover ftom the 1600s..... and would have been best IF it was left behind instead of being caried over to the 1700s and the 1800s and the 1900s .....

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Good to see Paizo and Pathfinder getting some well deserved kudos on this issue.

Andoran

5 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I don’t have a really good idea of exactly what you are saying for half of that Steelfiredragon, or what point you’re trying to make, but part of it seems to be that the ethnicities of Dungeons and Dragons and Pathfinder are not real world ethnicities so why does it matter what skin colour they are - especially when it comes to rule books as opposed to campaign setting books.

Ok ... but why should the default assumption be that everyone is of Caucasian skin tone, which is what appears to be depicted in the majority of rule book art from D&D editions past. Ok, maybe other ethnicities and skin tones existed in the game worlds, why shouldn’t they get more representation in the rule books?

While the ethnicities and cultures depicted in Pathfinder, and the assumed setting of Golarion are of course not real world, many of them are quite clearly and heavily based on real world examples. Anyone who says that the Linnorm Kingdoms are not heavily based on Scandanavia, that Minkai is not heavily based on Japan, that Qadira is not heavily based on Persia, that Vudra is not heavily based on India is truly kidding themselves. I’m very glad that we see people from all these disparate cultures depicted in the rule book art and that they have obviously different ethnicities and skin tones to match.

Now it really wouldn’t matter to me that much if people from the Linnorm Kingdoms had red skin, people from Minkai had brown skin and people from Vudra had white skin, but it would be disappointing if everyone had only Caucasian skin tone, or if that was only what we ever saw in the art, as it wouldn’t feel like it was depicting a diverse and ‘real’ setting, or presenting an inclusive game.

Contributor

10 people marked this as a favorite.
Steelfiredragon wrote:
2: ALot of people can not tell the difference between ethnicticities anyway. this does include me( cant tell you the difference between a hispanic and a ntice american indian,

I can, having grown up in the southwestern USA.

Steelfiredragon wrote:
anmd I could not tell you the difference between a chinese person and a japanese person either)

I can, having grown up in the southwestern USA.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber

Props for the positive headliner!

One of the things I loved about Golarion from the beginning was that it wasn't just Medieval Europe and that Caucasian isn't the default assumption put forth(I love that there is no default at all, really).

It wouldn't be the same setting without the Garundi, Mwangi, Vudrani, Shoanti, Tien, and the others.

(now give us a South Garund book pl0x)


2 people marked this as a favorite.

The article never mentions the 1E PHB. Did you know that all the humans in it were brown skinned? It's hard to tell with the black and white art work, but it's true.

The real issue regarding fantasy art work is age discrimination, not race. The only people over 30 years old I see in modern fantasy RPG art work are either elves or evil. The only women I see over 25 are either undead or invisible. There are laws against this kind of discrimination you know!

Contributor

2 people marked this as a favorite.

I did my anthropology thesis lo these many moons ago on depictions of race and sex in D&D. I believe there's still a copy in the UCSC library.

There were only two women in the PHB. Dragon had articles with the half-orcs talking in African-American dialect. It was...well, let's just say not a very welcoming time for players who weren't male or white.

I never did get into age discrimination, but I'm pleased to say that Paizo has bought two stories from me thus far that feature women over fifty, and both of them got illustrations too.

And mine aren't the only ones either. If you check out the two latest web fiction stories, you'll note some pretty kick-ass women who are well over 25, and 30 for that matter, and neither undead nor invisible either. And only one is evil.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Steelfiredragon wrote:
2: ALot of people can not tell the difference between ethnicticities anyway. this does include me( cant tell you the difference between a hispanic and a ntice american indian,

I can, having grown up in the southwestern USA.

Steelfiredragon wrote:
anmd I could not tell you the difference between a chinese person and a japanese person either)

I can, having grown up in the southwestern USA.

Besides which, I’m not really sure how one (or even ‘a lot of’) person’s ignorance or lack of experience is relevant to the argument of ethnicities in RPG products.

(I don’t mean ignorance as an insult; I freely admit that I cannot tell someone’s ethnicity based simply on appearance with 100% accuracy. Living outside the US I don’t think I know any Native Americans, so I don't know if I would be able to pick such a person accurately out of a crowd. I know a lot of people of Chinese and Japanese descent, so my accuracy is probably a lot better there, but bereft of cues other than simply facial features and height / build I probably wouldn’t get it right every time, especially depending on what part of China the Chinese person was from).


Steelfiredragon wrote:

wthis worthy of media worthy???

This is what always busts my gut. When somebody comes onto CNN's or some other news site's Entertainment pages, and gets all riled up because he doesn't consider movie news, or which rock star died, or which actor is dating who, to be relevant.

Similarly, of how somebody could read a gaming article, written by gamers, for gamers to read, about gamer stuff, and somehow get bent enough to ask if it's "media worthy."

Well, yeah. Which actor is dating which is completely relevant to the Entertainment section. Just like an article pondering the social representations of gamer art, to gamers, for gamers, is relevant to a gamer magazine.

You don't go to the Entertainment page to learn about North Korea's missile launch. And you don't read a gaming article expecting to be enlightened about the presidential race.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
cibet44 wrote:

The article never mentions the 1E PHB. Did you know that all the humans in it were brown skinned? It's hard to tell with the black and white art work, but it's true.

The real issue regarding fantasy art work is age discrimination, not race. The only people over 30 years old I see in modern fantasy RPG art work are either elves or evil. The only women I see over 25 are either undead or invisible. There are laws against this kind of discrimination you know!

That's my big complaint with Anime. My wife and I are heavy into it, but my running joke at nearly every new series we check out is, "Holy crap! The world needs saving! Quick, call a fourteen-year-old!"

The genre is so youth-obsessed - despite the fact that a huge swath of their viewership is 29 - 45 - it's ridiculous.

Imagine my joy, when I found Moribito, an incredibly well animated series featuring as its heroine a gorgeous 30-year-old female warrior! Then imagine my ire each time a supporting character called her "old girl," or "old lady."

Paizo Employee Publisher, Chief Creative Officer

3 people marked this as a favorite.
cibet44 wrote:


The real issue regarding fantasy art work is age discrimination, not race. The only people over 30 years old I see in modern fantasy RPG art work are either elves or evil. The only women I see over 25 are either undead or invisible. There are laws against this kind of discrimination you know!

Ezren.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Tales Subscriber

Diversity solely for diversity's sake is unfortunately of debatable value almost everywhere except the United States. But since Paizo is an American Company and Pathfinder is a game played in the United States, there is no good reason for it not to be diverse in its representation of characters. Paizo wants Pathfinder to appeal to as many customers as possible. That is good business. Men, Women, Black, White, Asian, Latino, I am sure that Paizo wants them all as customers. Diversity, whatever its morality, makes good business sense.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
Bruunwald wrote:
Imagine my joy, when I found Moribito, an incredibly well animated series featuring as its heroine a gorgeous 30-year-old female warrior! Then imagine my ire each time a supporting character called her "old girl," or "old lady."

Anime/Japanese media can get pretty bad about that with the youth-worship. It's part of why there are so many 19 year old Special Forces vets + college graduate protagonists. There are exceptions of course, but that is a frustrating norm. And double standard. Male characters don't get slapped with that nearly as much.

(it's not a problem exclusive to Japanese media, but it does tend to get a spotlight there quite often)

Cheliax

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Tales Subscriber

Ohh and old people like me too!

Qadira

SEELAH! <3 <--Heart!

Thanks to the link, I stayed up for 2 hours reading the whole thread. A lot of good points were made, and viewpoints aired. I especially liked how a lot of artists and art directors were involved in the discussion. I feel the people who discounted the art, arguing gamers should rely on their own imaginations, do not realize the effect art can have. Not everyone is affected by art to the same degree, so for some art really isn't important, but for some people it can be a prime motivator of interest; hence why so many companies spend money on billboard advertising.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Steelfiredragon wrote:
2: ALot of people can not tell the difference between ethnicticities anyway. this does include me( cant tell you the difference between a hispanic and a ntice american indian,

I can, having grown up in the southwestern USA.

Steelfiredragon wrote:
anmd I could not tell you the difference between a chinese person and a japanese person either)

I can, having grown up in the southwestern USA.

Having grown up in the southwestern USA, can you tell apart a Pole from a Russian just by looking? I wouldn't ask if you were from NY or Chicago... ;)


Pyrrhic Victory wrote:
Diversity solely for diversity's sake is unfortunately of debatable value almost everywhere except the United States. But since Paizo is an American Company and Pathfinder is a game played in the United States, there is no good reason for it not to be diverse in its representation of characters. Paizo wants Pathfinder to appeal to as many customers as possible. That is good business. Men, Women, Black, White, Asian, Latino, I am sure that Paizo wants them all as customers. Diversity, whatever its morality, makes good business sense.

A thought excercise - if Paizo was to represent Australian ethnic diversity in its products... You would have people of primarily western european descent, then Mediterranean, southeast Asian/Chinese , Indian, middle eastern, Polynesian/Islander and Aboriginal Australian in order of rough population breakdown.

Taldor

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Tales Subscriber

The UK would be, in descending order:
Caucasian
Indian Subcontinent
Afro-Carribean
Mixed Race
Southeast Asian/Chinese
other

The percentages change massively for different ages groups but the pattern is fairly consistent.

I just like to see a mix, even if it isn't an accurate mix: variety is the spice of life, after all.


Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Steelfiredragon wrote:
2: ALot of people can not tell the difference between ethnicticities anyway. this does include me( cant tell you the difference between a hispanic and a ntice american indian,

I can, having grown up in the southwestern USA.

Steelfiredragon wrote:
anmd I could not tell you the difference between a chinese person and a japanese person either)

I can, having grown up in the southwestern USA.

I grew up on southeast coast.....

then moved to the southwest later on.....
I cant tell..... but then their all human beings to me...


In my life I have spoken to one African-American person (while visiting US) and in my country black people are very rare. I see one every couple of months.

And we do have a very small population of asian people (they own a shopping mall in one part of town), but outside of that, no other ethnicities but us Balkan people.


Bruunwald wrote:

That's my big complaint with Anime. My wife and I are heavy into it, but my running joke at nearly every new series we check out is, "Holy crap! The world needs saving! Quick, call a fourteen-year-old!"

The genre is so youth-obsessed

That's not just the genre - that's Japanese culture as a whole.


Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:

I did my anthropology thesis lo these many moons ago on depictions of race and sex in D&D. I believe there's still a copy in the UCSC library.

There were only two women in the PHB. Dragon had articles with the half-orcs talking in African-American dialect. It was...well, let's just say not a very welcoming time for players who weren't male or white.

I never did get into age discrimination, but I'm pleased to say that Paizo has bought two stories from me thus far that feature women over fifty, and both of them got illustrations too.

And mine aren't the only ones either. If you check out the two latest web fiction stories, you'll note some pretty kick-ass women who are well over 25, and 30 for that matter, and neither undead nor invisible either. And only one is evil.

In a game in Lastwall I got a little bugged by my players trying to tell an orc from the northern Fangwood to go back to the Hold of Belkzen reminded me of the back to Africa movement. I was not really happy with that. I am not sure it was intentional though.

Osirion

Everyone knows who the truly underrepresented race in Pathfinder is - the only Iconic who doesn't have a Wayne Reynolds portrait.


Pyrrhic Victory wrote:
Diversity solely for diversity's sake is unfortunately of debatable value almost everywhere except the United States. But since Paizo is an American Company and Pathfinder is a game played in the United States, there is no good reason for it not to be diverse in its representation of characters. Paizo wants Pathfinder to appeal to as many customers as possible. That is good business. Men, Women, Black, White, Asian, Latino, I am sure that Paizo wants them all as customers. Diversity, whatever its morality, makes good business sense.

What?

I'm not sure you have an entirely realistic view of the rest of the world. Just for example, the uk contains four primary native cultures, two first languages, and the primary population of england is the result of no less than four waves of migration. Thats just talking about the various flavours of historically native white people.

We have significant communities of people from various african nations, caribian nations, from india, pakistan, china, greece, turkey and poland. As well as jewish communities which have been here for hundreds of years.

Thats just sticking with the really large communities

Paizo Employee Developer

Wolfsnap wrote:
Everyone knows who the truly underrepresented race in Pathfinder is - the only Iconic who doesn't have a Wayne Reynolds portrait.

???

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Steelfiredragon wrote:
2: ALot of people can not tell the difference between ethnicticities anyway. this does include me( cant tell you the difference between a hispanic and a ntice american indian,

I can, having grown up in the southwestern USA.

Steelfiredragon wrote:
anmd I could not tell you the difference between a chinese person and a japanese person either)

I can, having grown up in the southwestern USA.

Funny story

Spoiler:
When I was playing Ayumi on WhiteWolf's WOD chats, someone posted a link to a quiz of identifying the Asian ethnic by looks. I think it was called theyalllookalike.com but I've never been able to find the URL. Anyway, of the 'white guys' playing Asian characters (Ayumi was Japanese) I scored the highest. Thus the 'racial bonus' in my profile here.

More seriously, While I do think that some people are too eager to make a big deal about race/ethnicity/religion being 'evenly represented' IT is nice, if I introduce the Somali family in my complex to Pathfinder to be able to point to Seelah and Kyra as well as Valeros and Sean- Er Sajan. :-)

Osirion

Mark Moreland wrote:
Wolfsnap wrote:
Everyone knows who the truly underrepresented race in Pathfinder is - the only Iconic who doesn't have a Wayne Reynolds portrait.
???

The only animal companion not pictured in the portrait with his master. Eric knows who I'm talking about. :)


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Yes, all well and good, but where are the green and blue skinned races? Why do they have to be a real world tint? Just saying.

Paizo Employee Developer

Wolfsnap wrote:
Mark Moreland wrote:
Wolfsnap wrote:
Everyone knows who the truly underrepresented race in Pathfinder is - the only Iconic who doesn't have a Wayne Reynolds portrait.
???
The only animal companion not pictured in the portrait with his master. Eric knows who I'm talking about. :)

Ah, Biter. Well, there's enough going on in Harsk's picture not to need to depict the badger. Or did you mean Dragon? Cause he's technically a familiar. As is Dargenti (though I guess since Seltyiel got the upgrade to Magus his bat familiar is no more).

Paizo Employee Webstore Gninja Minion

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Regarding racial diversity in art, I think y'all should take a gander at the Prismatic Art Collection Kickstarter project.

Osirion

Mark Moreland wrote:
Wolfsnap wrote:
Mark Moreland wrote:
Wolfsnap wrote:
Everyone knows who the truly underrepresented race in Pathfinder is - the only Iconic who doesn't have a Wayne Reynolds portrait.
???
The only animal companion not pictured in the portrait with his master. Eric knows who I'm talking about. :)
Ah, Biter. Well, there's enough going on in Harsk's picture not to need to depict the badger. Or did you mean Dragon? Cause he's technically a familiar. As is Dargenti (though I guess since Seltyiel got the upgrade to Magus his bat familiar is no more).

I am referring, of course, to Donahan! The very idea of Painting a portrait of a cavalier without his Horse! It's discrimination, I tell you!

Osirion

Mark Moreland wrote:
Wolfsnap wrote:
Mark Moreland wrote:
Wolfsnap wrote:
Everyone knows who the truly underrepresented race in Pathfinder is - the only Iconic who doesn't have a Wayne Reynolds portrait.
???
The only animal companion not pictured in the portrait with his master. Eric knows who I'm talking about. :)
Ah, Biter. Well, there's enough going on in Harsk's picture not to need to depict the badger. Or did you mean Dragon? Cause he's technically a familiar. As is Dargenti (though I guess since Seltyiel got the upgrade to Magus his bat familiar is no more).

We need to print t-shirts with "Save Biter" and wear them at the next pathfinder convention. The only time I got to see Biter was when he was getting sucked into a mysterious vortex in Legacy of Fire. I never saw him again.

SAVE BITER!!!

-Perry

Contributor

Gorbacz wrote:
Having grown up in the southwestern USA, can you tell apart a Pole from a Russian just by looking? I wouldn't ask if you were from NY or Chicago... ;)

Sometimes I can, yes. Just as I can say "that guy looks very French" or "that guy looks very German."

But I did live in New York for a while, so...

Anyway, just as there is a diversity among the people of Africa (it's a huge continent, and you're going to have a wide range of skin tones and facial features), there's visible ethic diversity in Asia, Europe, North America (compare a Navajo to an Inuit), South America, and so on.

"I can't tell the difference" doesn't change that fact. And therefore, in the interest of presenting a variety of human people in your artwork, you should look to real-world examples of this diversity.

Paizo Employee Developer

20 people marked this as a favorite.

The effort to show diversity in artwork is more than just to try to replicate a specific real-world spread of various races in a given location. It's to provide people who may not identify with a particular gender or race to have a better chance of seeing art with which they can identify with in a given product.

I'm a straight white male, so I can't relate to not seeing something I can relate to in, well, just about everything from movies to books to gaming materials. But for women, folks with a non-heterosexual identity, or people of color, seeing an aspect of one's self represented in a non-stereotypical or non-patronizing way in media can add a connection to that material. And that's what we want to do as a brand and as a community: be welcoming, accepting, and affirming of diversity so that everyone can see this as a game and a community that they can join and call their own.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Mark Moreland wrote:
I'm a straight white male, so I can't relate to not seeing something I can relate to in, well, just about everything from movies to books to gaming materials. But for women, folks with a non-heterosexual identity, or people of color, seeing an aspect of one's self represented in a non-stereotypical or non-patronizing way in media can add a connection to that material. And that's what we want to do as a brand and as a community: be welcoming, accepting, and affirming of diversity so that everyone can see this as a game and a community that they can join and call their own.

So when do we get a left handed iconic?

Paizo Employee Paizo Glitterati Robot

Moved thread.

Andoran Contributor

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Liz Courts wrote:
Regarding racial diversity in art, I think y'all should take a gander at the Prismatic Art Collection Kickstarter project.

The Prismatic Art Project isn't just awesome because it'll provide a big archive of freely-available stock art for gamers and publishers, but also because you can personally get art from me (including a Paizo-blog-style goblin of you) for a measly $50!


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Maps Subscriber

In my experience, the people who state that there's no need for ethnic diversity in "x" are generally straight white males between the ages of 18 and 35.

Please note, this is not the same as saying all straight white males between the ages of 18 and 35 say there's no need for ethnic diversity.

Osirion

Crystal Frasier wrote:
Liz Courts wrote:
Regarding racial diversity in art, I think y'all should take a gander at the Prismatic Art Collection Kickstarter project.
The Prismatic Art Project isn't just awesome because it'll provide a big archive of freely-available stock art for gamers and publishers, but also because you can personally get art from me (including a Paizo-blog-style goblin of you) for a measly $50!

That's sold out *weep*

-Perry

Andoran Contributor

Perry Snow wrote:
Crystal Frasier wrote:
Liz Courts wrote:
Regarding racial diversity in art, I think y'all should take a gander at the Prismatic Art Collection Kickstarter project.
The Prismatic Art Project isn't just awesome because it'll provide a big archive of freely-available stock art for gamers and publishers, but also because you can personally get art from me (including a Paizo-blog-style goblin of you) for a measly $50!

That's sold out *weep*

-Perry

Some of the custom orders have sold out, but we're staggering the various artists' offers. Mine haven't gone live just yet. Keep checking back, because they should be available in the next 24 hours. If they're popular enough, maybe I'll offer another round!

Osirion

Crystal Frasier wrote:
Perry Snow wrote:
Crystal Frasier wrote:
Liz Courts wrote:
Regarding racial diversity in art, I think y'all should take a gander at the Prismatic Art Collection Kickstarter project.
The Prismatic Art Project isn't just awesome because it'll provide a big archive of freely-available stock art for gamers and publishers, but also because you can personally get art from me (including a Paizo-blog-style goblin of you) for a measly $50!

That's sold out *weep*

-Perry

Some of the custom orders have sold out, but we're staggering the various artists' offers. Mine haven't gone live just yet. Keep checking back, because they should be available in the next 24 hours. If they're popular enough, maybe I'll offer another round!

My mistake. I'll keep an eye out. Thanks Crystal!

-Perry

Osirion

Matthew Morris wrote:
Mark Moreland wrote:
I'm a straight white male, so I can't relate to not seeing something I can relate to in, well, just about everything from movies to books to gaming materials. But for women, folks with a non-heterosexual identity, or people of color, seeing an aspect of one's self represented in a non-stereotypical or non-patronizing way in media can add a connection to that material. And that's what we want to do as a brand and as a community: be welcoming, accepting, and affirming of diversity so that everyone can see this as a game and a community that they can join and call their own.
So when do we get a left handed iconic?

I was going to say that Seltyiel is a lefty, but technically he uses uses his right hand for spells, so maybe he's a righty after all?


Mark Moreland wrote:
I'm a straight white male, so I can't relate to not seeing something I can relate to in, well, just about everything from movies to books to gaming materials. But for women, folks with a non-heterosexual identity, or people of color, seeing an aspect of one's self represented in a non-stereotypical or non-patronizing way in media can add a connection to that material. And that's what we want to do as a brand and as a community: be welcoming, accepting, and affirming of diversity so that everyone can see this as a game and a community that they can join and call their own.

Thanks for saying this; I think it articulates the issue really well.

Also, issues of privilege can come into discussions like this very easily. If you're accustomed to always seeing main characters of your own (white) ethnicity, then of course an effort to promote non-white main characters is going to seem unusual to you - you feel that having characters of your own ethnicity to relate to is your right.

For someone who grew up actively hunting out characters they could relate to in fiction, however, and rarely finding them...

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

So Steel, you'd make absolutely nothing out of the fact that the Drow, which was a British creation for Fiend Folio, was set up as the chaotic evil embodiment of elven treachery, that their skin was jet black, while D&D followed Tolkien's model of "good" elves whose skin was lily white? And that orcs and other typically "evil" races are frequently depicted with dark skin?

I believe it was Travis Williams who made a similar observation back in the days of White Wolf magazine.

It's no accident that white folks being the controlling ethnicity tend to deny racism when it exists. That others might perceive it differently seems incomprehensible.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
LazarX wrote:
...It's no accident that white folks being the controlling ethnicity tend to deny racism when it exists. That others might perceive it differently seems incomprehensible.

Can we please not start blanket-assigning intent and motive to others, especially other Paizo posters?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

The Drow (created by Gygax as I remember, no insult Lazar) do deserve a mention IMO, if only because I could never figure out why the elves who lived above ground would be the pale ones.

Paizo obviously approaches their characters with diversity in mind, and I don't see how that can hurt the industry. Speaking as a straight white male, we do have a blind spot when it comes to race, and I'm glad that there is at least one company whose art reminds me that every character out there doesn't have to look like me.

Paizo Employee Managing Editor

4 people marked this as a favorite.
Wolfsnap wrote:

I was going to say that Seltyiel is a lefty, but technically he uses uses his right hand for spells, so maybe he's a righty after all?

Seltyiel's a switch-hitter.

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