PrCs and swapping Sorcerer spells known


Rules Questions


5 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.

In the Spells section for the Sorcerer (and similarly for Bards and some other spontaneous casters) is this language.

Core Rule Book wrote:
Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered sorcerer level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one she already knows. In effect, the sorcerer loses the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell's level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged. A sorcerer may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that she gains new spells known for the level.

I have a character that is currently Sorcerer 5 / Dragon Disciple 6. When I next level up and take another level of Dragon Disciple it will make my effective Sorcerer caster level 10. Can I swap out a spell at this point or would I have to take an actual Sorcerer level to get this benefit?

Since I will gain new spells known as though I had 10 levels of Sorcerer, I could see being able to swap out spells, but I could also see this falling under "other benefits." This is for a PFS character, so I'm trying to figure out what RAW really is for this to avoid any issues at the table.


I think you can't swap with Dragon disciple levels.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

I believe you do. Why?
Well, what is this spell swapping actually giving you? A NEW SPELL KNOWN (in exchange for losing a previous one)
And what does Dragon Disciple (and similar Caster Progression PrCs) say about Spells Known?

Quote:
He does not, however, gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained, except for additional spells per day, spells known (if he is a spontaneous spellcaster)

That you are giving up something in order to receive the benefit of a new spell known is what's novel here, but I believe it still qualifies. Hit FAQ if you want to.

Grand Lodge

It specifically states that you can make the changes when you gain a sorcerer level. Almost all PRCs also include this text

Some geek wrote:
When a new dragon disciple level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in a spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class. She does not, however, gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained.

The FAQ also addresses the issue for wizards, and it would follow that this applies to sorcerers as well.

Jason Bulmahn (11/24/10) wrote:

Does a wizard (or other character that uses a spellbook), receive bonus spells to add to his spellbook when he gains a level in a prestige class that grants an increase to spellcasting?

No. The increase to his spellcasting level does not grant any other benefits, except for spells per day, spells known (for spontaneous casters), and an increase to his overall caster level. He must spend time and gold to add new spells to his spellbook.

No reason you can't make a house rule though, it certainly would not break the PRC.


note the special clause only for spontaneous casters. (i.e. that DON'T use a spellbook, which is the focus of the FAQ question)
the initial 'no' is in reference to the actual quesion asked (re: wizards/spellbook users), as is the the mention of 'must spend gold to add to spellbook', which is incoherent in the context of a sorceror or bard.

i would go so far to say that ease of PrC'ing is in fact a feature of Sorcerors where they have signifigant advantages vs. Wizards. You can actually advance Wizard casting with Dragon Disciple, but you will be buying ALL your spells, which isn't trivial.

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Quandary wrote:

note the special clause only for spontaneous casters. (i.e. that DON'T use a spellbook, which is the focus of the FAQ question)

the initial 'no' is in reference to the actual quesion asked (re: wizards/spellbook users), as is the the mention of 'must spend gold to add to spellbook', which is incoherent in the context of a sorceror or bard.

i would go so far to say that ease of PrC'ing is in fact a feature of Sorcerors where they have signifigant advantages vs. Wizards. You can actually advance Wizard casting with Dragon Disciple, but you will be buying ALL your spells, which isn't trivial.

Another argument for this position is that the spell swapping is still under the Spells class ability entry for sorcerers, which is what a PrC advances. Free spells for wizards are under the Spellbook class feature, which is generally not advanced by PrCs.

Grand Lodge

Quandary wrote:

note the special clause only for spontaneous casters. (i.e. that DON'T use a spellbook, which is the focus of the FAQ question)

the initial 'no' is in reference to the actual quesion asked (re: wizards/spellbook users), as is the the mention of 'must spend gold to add to spellbook', which is incoherent in the context of a sorceror or bard.

Also read that I said it would follow logically (for me) that the same rules apply to other classes. If a wizard gaining extra spells for his book is considered an "additional benefit" I would rule that a sorcerer swapping spells is also in the same vein.


Heh, no consensus. This is pretty much how I expected the discussion to go, but I'm certainly glad to hear everyone's arguments.

I suppose I'll simply discuss it with my local VC (and most frequent GM) unless it gets answered in the FAQ. Personally, I think he'd be glad for me to swap out Mad Monkeys since it is so powerful.


Mike Lindner wrote:

Heh, no consensus. This is pretty much how I expected the discussion to go, but I'm certainly glad to hear everyone's arguments.

I suppose I'll simply discuss it with my local VC (and most frequent GM) unless it gets answered in the FAQ. Personally, I think he'd be glad for me to swap out Mad Monkeys since it is so powerful.

Nooooo...! Not mad monkeys! How could you betray them?


<<<THREAD NECROMANCY>>>

Mike Lindner wrote:

I have a character that is currently Sorcerer 5 / Dragon Disciple 6. When I next level up and take another level of Dragon Disciple it will make my effective Sorcerer caster level 10. Can I swap out a spell at this point or would I have to take an actual Sorcerer level to get this benefit?

Since I will gain new spells known as though I had 10 levels of Sorcerer, I could see being able to swap out spells, but I could also see this falling under "other benefits." This is for a PFS character, so I'm trying to figure out what RAW really is for this to avoid any issues at the table.

While not planning on playing a Dragon Disciple (rather an Eldritch Knight), I am interested in knowing the official answer to the "learn a new spell in place of one..." aspect of most spontaneous casters in relation to PrCs that grant "+1 level of spellcasting".

If the answer is "no", then you have to plan your spell choices very carefully...


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Short answer: No.

Long answer: Because the ability specifies sorcerer levels, instead of caster level or text such as "each level of cleric spells"/"each spell level" that is in the cleric Domain/wizard Arcane School class features for bonus domain/school spells, prestige class levels that advance spellcasting do not count.

However, the character can still use the Retraining rules to change spells known.


I was leaning toward "No" anyway.

It wouldn't be too powerful to allow it (as some above have felt that it should qualify per the "Spells Known" section), but that would have to be a house rule.

I had forgotten about Retraining. Definitely a good option if the first is off the table!

Thanks! :D


I dont think it is RAI either. You need actual sorcerer class levels for it to work, not just be able to cast as a sorcerer.

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