Miracle for Endurance Witches: Bad Idea

[OldManAlexi]

Witches with the Endurance Patron get Miracle as their 9th level patron spell. The very idea of casting this spell fills me with child-like terror.

When a wizard casts Wish, it is interpreted by a dispassionate force without an agenda (assuming a GM that is not fixated on twisting wishes). When a cleric casts Miracle, it is interpreted and allowed by the cleric's deity, who generally has the same agenda as the cleric. In both of these cases, you can usually trust that the spell will work out how you wanted. In fact, with the cleric, you can expect the deity to interpret the spell in the best possible way for your character.

However, witches are no where near that lucky. When a witch casts Miracle, it is interpreted and allowed by the source of the witch's power, its patron. Unlike with clerics, witches do not necessarily have the same goals as their patrons. In many cases, they do not even know who their patron is. Thus, they are putting the power of a reality warping spell into the hands of a creature that they may very well know nothing about. This creature may decide to twist its interpretation of the request or simply make the spell fail on a whim.

Any one else terrified by this idea?

Okay, looking back, the Miracle spell does not explicitly mention the spell being twisted but I would interpret that as being due to the fact that your deity is not likely going to want to mess with you like that.

[Cheapy]

Heck, the patron isn't even necessarily a creature. It could be that tree over there that's actually your patron, and suddenly it decides what's going to happen!

[Lurk3r]

Cheapy wrote:

Heck, the patron isn't even necessarily a creature. It could be that tree over there that's actually your patron, and suddenly it decides what's going to happen!

And it shunts your request into a maximized Awaken spell on itself and then proceeds to raise and army or treefolk! Sounds like a fun adventure hook.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Miracle doesn't twist what you ask for. It is what it is, it either works or does not.

[TOZ]

If you don't trust your DM to rule fairly on it, don't cast it.

[StreamOfTheSky]

TOZ wrote:

If you don't trust your DM to rule fairly on it, don't cast it.

Or just stick to using it for the things the spell specifically says it can do, like casting lower level cleric spells.

[OldManAlexi]

Except your patron might decide that it doesn't want you to be able to cast that lower level cleric spell right now.

[TOZ]

Your god might decide it doesn't want you to cast that spell you prepared.

There might be a fluctuation in the magical field that causes your fireball spell to explode as soon as you cast it instead of where you direct it.

Same difference.

[StreamOfTheSky]

When handing the core rule book to another player I might sneeze and end up throwing it at my DM's face.

A butterfly flapping its wings in china could cause a hurricane in canada which could cause an earthquake in Sumatra which could cause a traffic jam in L.A. which could cause me (not in L.A.) to get the urge to leave the gaming group.

Anything can happen at any time!

[doctor_wu]

I never really seemed attracted to miracle and wish because they are so nebolous in this way and really expensive. It sort of is a bribe for overwhelming force just doesn't seem fun for me.

[OldManAlexi]

TOZ wrote:

Your god might decide it doesn't want you to cast that spell you prepared.

There might be a fluctuation in the magical field that causes your fireball spell to explode as soon as you cast it instead of where you direct it.

Same difference.

That would generally either occur in a plane with strange magic traits or because the GM was being a jerk (Edit: or because a cleric violated his alignment). Problems with a witch casting Miracle could come from the GM's concept of the patron not approving of what you're trying to accomplish. If the GM is planning on your patron playing a role in the campaign, he would have to make the goals and personality of the patron consistent. If a witch ends up being on bad terms with his patron, he would never be able to cast Miracle.

[TriOmegaZero]

Replace every instance of "patron" in your post with "deity" and "witch" with "cleric". There is no difference.

[StabbittyDoom]

doctor_wu wrote:

I never really seemed attracted to miracle and wish because they are so nebolous in this way and really expensive. It sort of is a bribe for overwhelming force just doesn't seem fun for me.

Note that Miracle does not have the material cost for some uses (like being used to imitate other spells). It's a very nice spell choice for high-level oracles for that reason.

I've always had a problem with spells that have more than a few direct uses. It seems weird to have a "Do Chores" spell that will do your laundry, OR do your dishes, OR take out the trash, OR ... You get the idea. It's one of the two reasons I dislike the Shadow spells.

It's hard enough to handle creative players when all they have is a bucket of grease and some fishing twine. When that bucket of grease can become any known liquid and the fishing twin can become any string-like object, you're really in trouble.

[OldManAlexi]

TriOmegaZero wrote:

Replace every instance of "patron" in your post with "deity" and "witch" with "cleric". There is no difference.

They're not really equivalent. It's possible to have a witch and patron who have radically different beliefs or opposing alignment. A cleric worships a deity BECAUSE they have the same beliefs and goals.

Edit: If the cleric changes enough that this is no longer the case, he will end up worshiping a different deity. As far as I know, there is no way to switch witch patrons.

[TriOmegaZero]

I have a dwarven cleric of the dragon god in my DMs setting. He doesn't fall into lockstep with everything she says. I'm sorry you feel otherwise, but clerics are allowed to be within one step of their deities alignment. A LN cleric of the same god is going to act differently than a NG one.

[StreamOfTheSky]

And *gasp* some clerics have no deity at all!

[Benly]

OldManAlexi wrote:

Unlike with clerics, witches do not necessarily have the same goals as their patrons. In many cases, they do not even know who their patron is. Thus, they are putting the power of a reality warping spell into the hands of a creature that they may very well know nothing about.

Wrong way around. The unknown creature is, for its mysterious reasons, putting that power into the hands of a mortal who may appear to be opposed to it.

The risk of failure when you do something your patron doesn't want to have happen is an inherent part of Miracle, but there's no reason to expect it to be twisted - the power that grants you the spell either does what you ask or doesn't. I'm fairly sure that the refusal is only supposed to be for the "very powerful requests" that add a material component, but the wording is not 100% clear on that. If that's the case, it's still a very useful spell.

[Trinite]

You see a problem, I see an opportunity! Maybe that's how the witch finally finds out about her patron's true agenda.

The only situation in which this is likely to matter is if the patron decides that this is the precise moment to turn on somebody that it's stood behind for a good solid 18 levels. Why now, after all this time? What does it really want?

That's an awesome plot hook.

[OldManAlexi]

Good point. Still, the relationship between cleric and god is based on a shared belief system. It will not always be exactly the same but there will be common ground. Take a LG god and his NG cleric. The cleric will be more flexible on legal matters than the god would prefer but they will find common ground in performing goodly act. Obviously, this is an oversimplification. Plus, it's more complicated when the god is N. Still, a cleric that thinks before he casts Miracle should be able to save it for situations that his god approves of.

My point is that the patron could be CE while the witch is LG. They could potentially have absolutely nothing in common. There is even the possibility that they could become enemies. It's a much different relationship dynamic especially when the witch doesn't know who the patron is and, thus, has to guess whether or not his patron will allow the Miracle to occur.

Of course, there's also the possibility that the witch and the patron will have some form of common goal. In this case, Miracle would work exactly the same way as for the cleric. My point is that this will not always be the case.

EDIT: Gah, people posted in between.
@TriOmegaZero

[mdt]

TOZ wrote:

Your god might decide it doesn't want you to cast that spell you prepared.

There might be a fluctuation in the magical field that causes your fireball spell to explode as soon as you cast it instead of where you direct it.

Same difference.

I've always thought about taking a small darkwood shield, casting invisiblity on it, and then mage handing it in front of a wizard before ambushing him in combat, so that when he casts fireball it hits the shield 3 feet in front of him and explodes. :)

[mdt]

TriOmegaZero wrote:

I have a dwarven cleric of the dragon god in my DMs setting. He doesn't fall into lockstep with everything she says. I'm sorry you feel otherwise, but clerics are allowed to be within one step of their deities alignment. A LN cleric of the same god is going to act differently than a NG one.

I feel compelled, as his DM, to note that he hasn't actually risen to a high enough level to impinge on his goddess's radar at this time. Currently he's being handled by a 3rd level Avatar clerk. :)

[TriOmegaZero]

mdt wrote:

I've always thought about taking a small darkwood shield, casting invisiblity on it, and then mage handing it in front of a wizard before ambushing him in combat, so that when he casts fireball it hits the shield 3 feet in front of him and explodes. :)

Yeah, but that requires fighting a wizard that thinks fireball is a good choice for an opener.

They don't last long. :P

[mdt]

TriOmegaZero wrote:

Yeah, but that requires fighting a wizard that thinks fireball is a good choice for an opener. :P They don't last long.

You have met Mike right?

[TriOmegaZero]

I'd think Raff the more likely candidate.

[mdt]

TriOmegaZero wrote:

I'd think Raff the more likely candidate.

Mike played a goblin wizard in the Friday night game. He cast Fireball, as his first spell, no less than 5 times. And four of those times, he hit his own party members to get it off (including himself).

[TriOmegaZero]

Yeah, but that's a goblin wizard. Their mission in life is to do the stupidest thing possible.

Raff was the one with the witch that forget to cast mage armor for four rounds of combat.

[mdt]

LOL :)

[Shadowdweller]

Miracles granted by powerful and disturbing entities mysterious even to the witch asking for them? Count me firmly in the "that's awesome" camp.

[OldManAlexi]

So, the consensus seems to be that the likelihood of your patron turning on you is a feature, not a bug... I can respect that. Now I just need to figure out what Miracle has to do with endurance.

[Mighty Squash]

StreamOfTheSky wrote:

And *gasp* some clerics have no deity at all!

Exactly.

No deity makes this spell complicated on whole other levels. The whole collision of rule vs fluff.

[Tacticslion]

Mighty Squash wrote:

StreamOfTheSky wrote:

And *gasp* some clerics have no deity at all!

Exactly.

No deity makes this spell complicated on whole other levels. The whole collision of rule vs fluff.

Depends on which campaign setting you use.

[The Drunken Dragon]

Plus it all highly depends on what you're trying to do. I mean, Miracle and Wish spells are essentially what happens when you master magic to such a degree that you can do a whole massive number of things with just one spell. If you're substituting it for another spell, that's fine. But if you try and get fancy and start changing reality, than most GMs will probably have some sort of consequences, no matter who is casting what how.

Also, the patron gives the witch the knowledge to use the spells, and no further. They plant a seed of power in their heads, and that's pretty much it. According to our good ol' James Jacobs, he once asked a question as to what would happen if a patron died. His answer was...well, not the same thing as what would happen if a deity died. So technically, the miracle wouldn't be granted by the patron, since the patron doesn't directly grant the witch spells, but just tells her how to work them through her familiar.

[Tacticslion]

The Drunken Dragon wrote:

Plus it all highly depends on what you're trying to do. I mean, Miracle and Wish spells are essentially what happens when you master magic to such a degree that you can do a whole massive number of things with just one spell. If you're substituting it for another spell, that's fine. But if you try and get fancy and start changing reality, than most GMs will probably have some sort of consequences, no matter who is casting what how.

Also, the patron gives the witch the knowledge to use the spells, and no further. They plant a seed of power in their heads, and that's pretty much it. According to our good ol' James Jacobs, he once asked a question as to what would happen if a patron died. His answer was...well, not the same thing as what would happen if a deity died. So technically, the miracle wouldn't be granted by the patron, since the patron doesn't directly grant the witch spells, but just tells her how to work them through her familiar.

So what you're saying is that it's the witch's familiar who grants her miracles?

(I know that's not what you're actually saying, but it's too funny not to use at some point.)