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Duelist Challenge: Build a great Duelist.


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion

Silver Crusade

2 people marked this as a favorite.

I was looking over the Duelist PrC and while I like the idea of it, the class lacks in my opinion, especially when it comes to parry.

Parry (Ex): At 2nd level, a duelist learns to parry the
attacks of other creatures, causing them to miss. Whenever
the duelist takes a full attack action with a light or onehanded
piercing weapon, she can elect not to take one
of her attacks. At any time before her next turn, she can
attempt to parry an attack against her or an adjacent ally
as an immediate action. To parry the attack, the duelist
makes an attack roll, using the same bonuses as the attack
she chose to forego during her previous action. If her
attack roll is greater than the roll of the attacking creature,
the attack automatically misses. For each size category
that the attacking creature is larger than the duelist, the
duelist takes a –4 penalty on her attack roll. The duelist
also takes a –4 penalty when attempting to parry an attack
made against an adjacent ally. The duelist must declare
the use of this ability after the attack is announced, but
before the roll is made.

Now I can understand the whole part about holding back your attacks to parry the attacks of the creature you are fighting but this class makes you pretty much give up your best attack to parry which lowers your chance of actually hitting anything. Now if you design your duelist to be someone that just stands there and absorbs attacks from enemies then I can understand but as far as I can tell, you are worse off against enemies that have one or multiple attacks that all have the same to hit.

What would make the Duelist better is if you could some how have a two weapon fighting Duelist but unfortunately you can't.

Now if anyone has a good Duelist build then please post it. We will go with a 20 point buy at 10th level.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Yeah, they really should have used an Attack of Opportunity to parry the attack, not a regular iterative attack.

Andoran

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Well, with Riposte, they get an AoO for every atack they parry, so it becomes worth it.

It's also lovely combined with Crane Wing (two attacks per round defended against, then AoO'd).

Here's something I've been playing around with as an NPC, but using full PC rules (well, his WBL is probably off by a few hundred) and my PC creation limits (25 point buy, no stats over 16 before racial mods). House ruled to allow Piranha Strike to work with Rapiers, but you could build him with higher strength and power attack easily enough (drop Cha to 12):

Human Fighter (Lore Warden) 7/Duelist 6
CG Medium Humanoid
Init +11; Senses Perception +16
DEFENSE
AC 33/37/41/45, touch 26/30/30/35, flat-footed 16 (+4 Armor, +1 Dodge, +7 Dex, +5 Int, +3 Natural Armor, +3 Deflection, +4 Fighting Defensively, +4 Shield, +4 Combat Expertise)
HP 95 (13d10+13)
Fort +12, Ref +18, Will +9 (+1 vs. fear)

OFFENSE
Spd 30 ft.
Melee rapier +20/+15/+10 (-4 Piranha Strike, -1 Fighting Defensively) (1d6+24/15-20)
Ranged dagger +21/+16/+11 (1d4/19-20)

STATISTICS
Str 10, Dex 24*, Con 13, Int 20*, Wis 10, Cha 14
BAB +13; CMB +24; CMD 38
Feats Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Crane Riposte, Crane Style, Crane Wing, Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike, Lunge, Mobility, Piranha Strike, Spring Attack, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Rapier), Weapon Specialization (Rapier),
Skills: Acrobatics +28**, Bluff +21**, Climb +4, Diplomacy +15**, Intimidate +9**, Knowledge (Arcana) +7/21**, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +10, Knowledge (History) +10, Knowledge (Local) +21, Knowledge (Nature) +15, Knowledge (Planes) +20, Knowledge (Religion) +20, Perception +16, Sense Motive +16, Swim +4, Use Magic Device +18**,
**From headband, circlet, or boots
Languages Common, Hallit, Elven, Draconic, Celestial,
Traits Reactionary, Indomitable Faith,
Special Maneuver Mastery +4, Bravery +1, Know Thy Enemy, Weapon Training (Light Blades) 1, Parry, Canny Defense (+5), Precise Strike (+6), Parry, Riposte, Enhanced Mobility, Grace (+2), Acrobatic Charge,
Combat Gear potion of cure serious wounds (2), wand of shield (38 charges, CL 2), wand of versatile weapon (19 charges), wand of cure light wounds (46 charges), wand of mirror image (21 charges), wand of heroism (24 charges), wand of see invisibility (16 charges),
Gear Pearl of Power (1st level, plus agreement with a 12th level Wizard to cast Mage Armor on him daily), Boots of Elvenkind, Circlet of Persuasion, Cloak of Resistance +4, Amulet of Natural Armor +3, Ring of Protection +3,Belt of Incredible Dexterity +4, Headband of Intellect +4 (Knowledge (Arcana) and Use Magic Device), Agile, Keen, +3 Rapier, Masterwork Cold Iron Dagger, 8 normal daggers, 180 GP


EDIT: Pretty much above me minus the buffs, magic items, and level 10. I went scimitar dance though instead of rapier / piranha strike but intending to get power attack.

A great duelist, compared to other options isn't possible. Something like this? Keep in mind this isn't using any magic items.

AC Breakdown
Total: 28
Dex 5
Studded Leather 3
Fighting Defensively 4 (2 normally, 1 crane style, 1 acrobatics)
Int 3
Dodge 1
Free Hand Elusive 2

Attacks Breakdown
Total +16 1d6+10 / +11 1d6+10

Attack
BAB 10
Singleton +1
Dex 5
Wpn Focus 1
Fighting Defensively -1

Damage
Dex 5
Precise Strike 4
Singleton 1

Fighter (Free Hand) 6 / Duelist 4
Elf

Str 13 Dex 20 (+2 Race, +2 Bump) Con 12 (-2 Race) Wis 10 Int 16 (+2 Race) Cha 7

Level 1:
Feat - Dodge
Combat Feat - Wpn Finesse

Level 2:
Combat Feat - Dervish Dance

Level 3:
Feat - Mobility

Level 4:
+1 Dex
Combat Feat - Unarmed Strike (Prereq)

Level 5:
Feat - Crane Style

Level 6 -
Combat Feat - Crane Wing

Level 7:
Feat - Crane Riposte

Level 8:
+1 Dex

Level 9:
Feat - Weapon Focus

Sadly level 10 doesn't get you far enough for Elaborate Defense, Weapon Specialization, Power Attack, etc. This can also be expanded upon.

Also..
MoMS, Lore Warden, Duelist with Kirin Path / Combat Patrol is an interesting combo.

Lore Warden
All knowledge checks
Weapon Training

MoMS
Increased movement
Kirin Path / Crane combo

Kirin Path lets you move when someone enters threatened area. Combat Patrol increases the threatened area and lets you move base speed. Mobility + Enhanced Mobility = 8 AC for AoO so you can move around pretty easily (combined with your already great AC). I don't know how practical this would be though since I haven't played beyond lvl 7.

Andoran

Vestax159 wrote:
A great duelist, compared to other options isn't possible. Something like this? Keep in mind this isn't using any magic items.

I disagree, actually. With Crane Wing, a Duelist can be nearly untouchable in melee, and capable of simply, slowly, picking apart most non-TWF builds in melee combat rather casually. Which is, after all, what a Duelist is supposed to do.

Silver Crusade

I just imagined a dual wielding duelist using the Gloves of Storing trick to go from having a weapon in the off-hand to not having one when using Precise strike.

If the duelist has two weapon fighting then he/she could reserve her off hand attacks for the Parry and still be able to keep his/her main hand highest base attack for attacking.


Start out Rogue you`ll end up as a better Duelest go to lvl 10 Rogue
you end up not only being usefull in combat but as a Scout and Skill Monger for the RP Part of your Campaine at lvl 20 you`ll hit some one with a Crit and not just do a great deal of damage but you can wipe out
up to 6 points of Str on one crit+ sneak and if you had the Critical focuse and critical bleed then you have one very nasty easy crit with improved crit 15-20 with a +4 on your confermation (o.o) on top of this you never get caught flatfooted or flanked unless the rogue is 4 lvl higher and you get evashion take no damage on a reflex save.
Human
LVL 1 Rogue
10 Str 0
20 Dex 5
12-14 Con 1-2
14-18 Int 2-4
10-12 Cha
Take Reationtory for +2 on int
and Blade of socity For +1 damage on sneak attacks
Perform Dance 1*
Feats: Weapon Finess( Scimatar),Dodge
+7 int(O.O)
Leather Armour +1 AC ( Ac =17 lvl 1 very good )
damage potintial (19 Max Min 4) with sneak and crit( +5 to hit)
Lvl 2
Perform Dance Ranks 2
Rogue Talent Combat Feat Dervish Dance
(+5 to Hit + 5 damage lvl 2 damage potintial 9 min 24 Max Great!)
and most likely you`ll be going before your opent gos for a another attack with sneak damage :o)


That was totally easy.

Silver Crusade

shallowsoul wrote:

I just imagined a dual wielding duelist using the Gloves of Storing trick to go from having a weapon in the off-hand to not having one when using Precise strike.

If the duelist has two weapon fighting then he/she could reserve her off hand attacks for the Parry and still be able to keep his/her main hand highest base attack for attacking.

Would it be possible to do a full-on TWF duelist wearing two gloves of storing? Enchanted twice so it worked on each hand?

The activating magic word would be 'La!', it's what the fencers say when they hit you to rub it in!

Makes a great visual, with rapiers popping in and out of existence!

Would it work?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Hmm. I'll take that up. Here's Ephram...

Ephram:
Ephram
Male Elf Duelist 3 Fighter (Free Hand Fighter) 5 Monk (Master of Many Styles) 2
LG Medium Humanoid (elf)
Init +11; Senses Low-Light Vision; Perception +17
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 29, touch 26, flat-footed 17 (+3 armor, +10 Dex, +2 deflection, +2 dodge)
hp 67 (8d10+2d8)
Fort +9, Ref +14, Will +8; +2 vs. enchantments
Defensive Abilities Canny Defense +3, Evasion, Parry; Immune sleep; Resist Elven Immunities
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 40 ft.
Melee +1 Agile Mithral Rapier +19/+14 (1d6+14/15-20/x2) and
. . Unarmed strike +17/+12 (1d6+2/x2)
Ranged +1 Composite longbow (Str +1) +17/+12 (1d8+2/x3)
Special Attacks Precise Strike, Singleton +1
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 12, Dex 20/24, Con 10, Int 16/18, Wis 12/14, Cha 9
Base Atk +9; CMB +10 (+13 Disarming); CMD 36 (39 vs. Disarm)
Feats Combat Expertise +/-3, Crane Style, Crane Wing, Dodge, Elven Weapon Proficiencies, Improved Critical (Rapier), Improved Disarm, Improved Unarmed Strike, Mobility, Monk Weapon Proficiencies, Stunning Fist (4/day) (DC 17), Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Rapier), Weapon Specialization (Rapier)
Traits Fencer, Warrior of Old
Skills Acrobatics +20, Bluff +5, Climb +9, Craft (weapons) +6, Escape Artist +11, Handle Animal +3, Intimidate +3, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +10, Knowledge (engineering) +10, Knowledge (history) +10, Knowledge (religion) +10, Perception +17, Perform (dance) +4, Ride +13, Sense Motive +8, Stealth +14, Survival +8, Swim +5
Languages Common, Dwarven, Elven, Hallit, Osiriani, Varisian
SQ AC Bonus +2, Deceptive Strike +1, Elusive +1, Elven Magic, Enhanced Mobility, Fuse Style (2 styles), Stunning Fist (Stun), Unarmed Strike (1d6)
Combat Gear +1 Agile Mithral Rapier, +1 Composite longbow (Str +1); Other Gear Belt of incredible dexterity +4, Boots of striding and springing, Bracers of armor +3, Cloak of resistance +1, Headband of mental prowess (Int & Wis +2) (Acrobatics), Ring of protection +2
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
AC Bonus +2 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
Canny Defense +3 (Ex) +INT bonus to AC (max Duelist level).
Combat Expertise +/-3 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.
Crane Style Take -2 penalty when fighting defensively
Crane Wing May deflect one attack per round while fighting defensively or using total defense
Deceptive Strike +1 (Ex) +1 to Disarm CMB/CMD, Bluff checks to feint or create a diversion to hide.
Elusive +1 (Ex) +1 Dodge AC
Elven Immunities +2 save bonus vs Enchantments.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to magic sleep effects.
Elven Magic +2 to spellcraft checks to determine the properties of a magic item.
Enhanced Mobility (Ex) +4 AC vs attacks of opportunity while moving out of a square.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fencer +1 to hit with dagger or sword AoOs.
Fuse Style (2 styles) (Ex) At 1st level, a master of many styles can fuse two of the styles he knows into a more perfect style. The master of many styles can have two style feat stances active at once. Starting a stance provided by a style feat is still a swift action, but whe
Improved Disarm Disarm at +2, without an attack of opportunity.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Mobility +4 to AC against some attacks of opportunity.
Parry (Ex) Forego an attack to defend against enemy attacks.
Precise Strike (Ex) Extra damage when using light / 1-handed Piercing weapons.
Singleton +1 (Ex) +1 to hit and damage when weilding a one-handed melee weapon.
Stunning Fist (4/day) (DC 17) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This conditio
Unarmed Strike (1d6) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.


monk build you will need two weapon fighting to make the off hand attacks with out the big - to hits on both attacks you only get the Two Weapon fighting as if you had two weapon fighting if you are useing only unarmed strikes or Speicial monk weapons rapier is not one and to get two attacks you would need Improved two weapon fighting.+ you lose out on your precise strike you cant make any attacks with your off hand
Improved unarmed considers you to be armed in that hand with out it your considered unarmed two flaws in that build. Some DM`s might over look the second but should not the first as it is clearly stated in the monks build.


I dont think the glove Trick will work as you lose your off hand attacks when the weapon is gone and to declar them as a save for Parry you would have to have them there when you make your full round attack.this is another one that would have to be up to your dm to allow if your plan is to use all your normal attacks in the FRA and then pop the sword out at the end and declare them for your parry i think it can be legit if it is a quick or free action. they pop up then before your turn is over and all the attacks made with the open hand for the extra damage and then you use them as your parry`s.


... I have read and reread parry, there is nothing about parry that states that you cannot use it with two weapon fighting. Precise Strike states that you cannot attack with a weapon in your off hand (not that you cannot wield it) but parry says nothing about off hand weapons unless there is errata I am not considering.

Silver Crusade

Aerethus wrote:
... I have read and reread parry, there is nothing about parry that states that you cannot use it with two weapon fighting. Precise Strike states that you cannot attack with a weapon in your off hand (not that you cannot wield it) but parry says nothing about off hand weapons unless there is errata I am not considering.

Unfortunately parry not only uses the attack roll mechanic (using your attack roll having to beat the opponent's attack roll), but also requires you to use one of your iterative attacks to parry.

Any way you look at it, the parry rules make a parry a variation of an attack.

That means that a parry with an off hand weapon is also an attack with an off hand weapon, denying certain PrC abilities to you.

I don't like it either. : (


Can anyone who has played a duelist inform me as to how duelists stack up damage wise? Let's say compared to a sword and board fighter who forgoes TWF/shield bashing.

Taldor

You have to look at 16th level. Assume their best ability score is 20. Both use a d8 weapon. We’ll ignore magical pluses since they should be the same.

I would go Weapon Master 4 Urban Barbarian 1 Aldori Swordlord PrC 1 Duelist 10.

The Duelist’s damage would be d8 plus Duelist (10), Dexterity (5), Rage (2), Weapon Specialization (2) and Weapon Training (1) for d8 + 20. Note that the 10 points of Duelist damage would not apply to anything immune to critical hits.

The Sword and Board Fighter would get d8 plus Power Attack (10), Strength (5), Greater/Weapon Specialization (4), and Weapon Training (3) for d8 + 22. Compared to a Duelist, you lose 5 points of BAB to Power Attack but get 2 back from Weapon Training and 1 from Greater Weapon Focus. You could drop one level of fighter to take Urban Barbarian. Raging would give you an extra +2/+2.

I would like to play a Duelist in Kingmaker. The closest I have come to this build is Free Hand Fighter 8, Aldori Swordlord PrC 1, and Duelist 2, in PFS.

A Duelist is fun to play. A great weakness for them is being feinted. The fighter has a much better flat-footed AC.

I did this off the top of my head, so there may be errors and omissions.

Thanks,

Kodger


Kodger wrote:

You have to look at 16th level. Assume their best ability score is 20. Both use a d8 weapon. We’ll ignore magical pluses since they should be the same.

I would go Weapon Master 4 Urban Barbarian 1 Aldori Swordlord PrC 1 Duelist 10.

The Duelist’s damage would be d8 plus Duelist (10), Dexterity (5), Rage (2), Weapon Specialization (2) and Weapon Training (1) for d8 + 20. Note that the 10 points of Duelist damage would not apply to anything immune to critical hits.

The Sword and Board Fighter would get d8 plus Power Attack (10), Strength (5), Greater/Weapon Specialization (4), and Weapon Training (3) for d8 + 22. Compared to a Duelist, you lose 5 points of BAB to Power Attack but get 2 back from Weapon Training and 1 from Greater Weapon Focus. You could drop one level of fighter to take Urban Barbarian. Raging would give you an extra +2/+2.

I would like to play a Duelist in Kingmaker. The closest I have come to this build is Free Hand Fighter 8, Aldori Swordlord PrC 1, and Duelist 2, in PFS.

A Duelist is fun to play. A great weakness for them is being feinted. The fighter has a much better flat-footed AC.

I did this off the top of my head, so there may be errors and omissions.

Thanks,

Kodger

Thanks, I always think that people slightly undervalue the Duelist. Pathfinder did nerf their AC though.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

How about this:

Test Duelist:

Test Duelist
Male Human (Varisian) Duelist 2 Fighter (Free Hand Fighter) 6 Monk (Master of Many Styles) 2
LG Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +11; Senses Perception +16
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 32, touch 28, flat-footed 20 (+3 armor, +9 Dex, +1 natural, +2 deflection, +3 dodge)
hp 72 (8d10+2d8+10)
Fort +11, Ref +14, Will +11
Defensive Abilities canny defense +2, evasion, parry
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 Agile Mithral Rapier +19/+14 (1d6+13/15-20/x2) and
. . Unarmed strike +17/+12 (1d6+1/x2)
Ranged Masterwork Composite longbow (Str +0) +17/+12 (1d8/x3)
Special Attacks precise strike, singleton +1
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 10, Dex 24, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 16, Cha 8
Base Atk +9; CMB +9 (+11 Tricking, +13 Disarming); CMD 37 (39 vs. Dirty Trick, 41 vs. Disarm)
Feats Combat Expertise +/-3, Crane Riposte, Crane Style, Crane Wing, Dodge, Improved Critical (Rapier), Improved Dirty Trick, Improved Disarm, Improved Unarmed Strike, Mobility, Stunning Fist (4/day) (DC 18), Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Rapier), Weapon Specialization (Rapier)
Traits Indomitable Faith, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +20, Bluff -1 (+1 to feint or create a diversion to hide), Climb +10, Craft (weapons) +5, Diplomacy +9, Escape Artist +20, Handle Animal +3, Intimidate +3, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +9, Knowledge (engineering) +9, Knowledge (history) +9, Knowledge (religion) +9, Perception +16, Perform (dance) +4, Ride +11, Sense Motive +7, Stealth +16, Survival +7, Swim +4
Languages Common, Draconic, Elven, Thassilonian, Varisian
SQ ac bonus +3, deceptive strike +2, elusive +2, fuse style (2 styles), stunning fist (stun), unarmed strike (1d6)
Other Gear +1 Agile Mithral Rapier, Masterwork Composite longbow (Str +0), Amulet of natural armor +1, Belt of incredible dexterity +4, Bracers of armor +3, Cloak of resistance +1, Headband of mental prowess (Int & Wis +2) (Diploma, Ioun stone (dusty rose prism), Ring of protection +2, 188 PP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
AC Bonus +3 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
Canny Defense +2 (Ex) +INT bonus to AC (max Duelist level).
Combat Expertise +/-3 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.
Crane Riposte When you deflect an attack, you may make an attack of opportunity
Crane Style Penalty when fighting defensively reduced to -2 and dodge bonus increases by 1.
Crane Wing May deflect one attack per round while fighting defensively or using total defense
Deceptive Strike +2 (Ex) +2 to Disarm CMB/CMD, Bluff checks to feint or create a diversion to hide.
Elusive +2 (Ex) +2 Dodge AC
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fuse Style (2 styles) (Ex) At 1st level, a master of many styles can fuse two of the styles he knows into a more perfect style. The master of many styles can have two style feat stances active at once. Starting a stance provided by a style feat is still a swift action, but whe
Improved Dirty Trick You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when performing a dirty trick.
Improved Disarm You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when disarming.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Mobility +4 to AC against some attacks of opportunity.
Parry (Ex) Forego an attack to defend against enemy attacks.
Precise Strike (Ex) Extra damage when using light / 1-handed Piercing weapons.
Singleton +1 (Ex) +1 to hit and damage when weilding a one-handed melee weapon.
Stunning Fist (4/day) (DC 18) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This conditio
Unarmed Strike (1d6) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.

Hit points could be better but saves and AC are excellent, especially with Crane Wing to deflect attacks when fighting defensively for +4 to that AC. Damage output and to-hit are not bad at +19 to hit and 1d6+13 damage on a 15-20/x2 threat range. Add Crane Riposte and you have three attacks a round at good odds to hit, inflicting some serious damage.

Silver Crusade

Ichigeki wrote:
Kodger wrote:

You have to look at 16th level. Assume their best ability score is 20. Both use a d8 weapon. We’ll ignore magical pluses since they should be the same.

I would go Weapon Master 4 Urban Barbarian 1 Aldori Swordlord PrC 1 Duelist 10.

The Duelist’s damage would be d8 plus Duelist (10), Dexterity (5), Rage (2), Weapon Specialization (2) and Weapon Training (1) for d8 + 20. Note that the 10 points of Duelist damage would not apply to anything immune to critical hits.

The Sword and Board Fighter would get d8 plus Power Attack (10), Strength (5), Greater/Weapon Specialization (4), and Weapon Training (3) for d8 + 22. Compared to a Duelist, you lose 5 points of BAB to Power Attack but get 2 back from Weapon Training and 1 from Greater Weapon Focus. You could drop one level of fighter to take Urban Barbarian. Raging would give you an extra +2/+2.

I would like to play a Duelist in Kingmaker. The closest I have come to this build is Free Hand Fighter 8, Aldori Swordlord PrC 1, and Duelist 2, in PFS.

A Duelist is fun to play. A great weakness for them is being feinted. The fighter has a much better flat-footed AC.

I did this off the top of my head, so there may be errors and omissions.

Thanks,

Kodger

Thanks, I always think that people slightly undervalue the Duelist. Pathfinder did nerf their AC though.

How did PF nerf the AC of the duelist?

PF allows the duelist to wear light armour, but the 3rd ed version didn't allow the duelist to wear armour at all! Well, he could but he'd lose his duelist abilities while he did.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It adds the intelligence dodge bonus to the dex dodge bonus, which in theory limits it by armour - my own deulist build above uses bracers rather than armour for just this reason. Paizo have since said that this wasn't how it was intended to work - that is should be treated like the dexterity bonus, but is separate from it.


Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
Ichigeki wrote:
Kodger wrote:

You have to look at 16th level. Assume their best ability score is 20. Both use a d8 weapon. We’ll ignore magical pluses since they should be the same.

I would go Weapon Master 4 Urban Barbarian 1 Aldori Swordlord PrC 1 Duelist 10.

The Duelist’s damage would be d8 plus Duelist (10), Dexterity (5), Rage (2), Weapon Specialization (2) and Weapon Training (1) for d8 + 20. Note that the 10 points of Duelist damage would not apply to anything immune to critical hits.

The Sword and Board Fighter would get d8 plus Power Attack (10), Strength (5), Greater/Weapon Specialization (4), and Weapon Training (3) for d8 + 22. Compared to a Duelist, you lose 5 points of BAB to Power Attack but get 2 back from Weapon Training and 1 from Greater Weapon Focus. You could drop one level of fighter to take Urban Barbarian. Raging would give you an extra +2/+2.

I would like to play a Duelist in Kingmaker. The closest I have come to this build is Free Hand Fighter 8, Aldori Swordlord PrC 1, and Duelist 2, in PFS.

A Duelist is fun to play. A great weakness for them is being feinted. The fighter has a much better flat-footed AC.

I did this off the top of my head, so there may be errors and omissions.

Thanks,

Kodger

Thanks, I always think that people slightly undervalue the Duelist. Pathfinder did nerf their AC though.

How did PF nerf the AC of the duelist?

PF allows the duelist to wear light armour, but the 3rd ed version didn't allow the duelist to wear armour at all! Well, he could but he'd lose his duelist abilities while he did.

What Dabbler said, But also in 3.5 Duelists used to get +1 AC per level of duelist when fighting defensively in addition to the regular benefit.


Dabbler wrote:

How about this:

** spoiler omitted **...

I like your build. I can't think of any argument not to take crane style, which to me means those feats are maybe a little to good. But that's a different discussion.

I've been thinking about a strength based duelist lately. Since int is added to your dex bonus, if you don't use dex as your main stat you could get more out of mithral breastplate or something. I kind of like the idea of a duelist who surprises foes with the sheer force and ferocity of his attacks.

I would probably take the dazzling display line and intimidating prowess on such a build. Thoughts?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ichigeki wrote:
Dabbler wrote:

How about this:

** spoiler omitted **...

I like your build. I can't think of any argument not to take crane style, which to me means those feats are maybe a little to good. But that's a different discussion.

Well, I see it as rounding out the duelist nicely, giving them the boost they needed to be viable.

Ichigeki wrote:

I've been thinking about a strength based duelist lately. Since int is added to your dex bonus, if you don't use dex as your main stat you could get more out of mithral breastplate or something. I kind of like the idea of a duelist who surprises foes with the sheer force and ferocity of his attacks.

I would probably take the dazzling display line and intimidating prowess on such a build. Thoughts?

Depressing that the one non-strength-build fighter option may be just as good with a high strength instead of high dexterity, frankly. Take the duelist away and there isn't much of a viable option for fast and smart as opposed to big and tough in terms of combat characters.

Silver Crusade

Dabbler wrote:
It adds the intelligence dodge bonus to the dex dodge bonus, which in theory limits it by armour - my own deulist build above uses bracers rather than armour for just this reason. Paizo have since said that this wasn't how it was intended to work - that is should be treated like the dexterity bonus, but is separate from it.
The official CRB FAQ wrote:

Duelist--Canny Defense: Is this ability limited by my armor's maximum Dexterity?

A duelist adds her Int bonus to her AC (not to her Dex bonus to AC). She loses that Int-based AC bonus under any situation where she's denied her Dex bonus to AC.
Her Int-based bonus to AC ignores the max Dex limitation of armor because the Int-based bonus to AC is not a Dex bonus.
(This Int bonus to AC applies to the character's touch AC.)

—Pathfinder Design Team, 03/01/13

They fixed it for us. : )


Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
Dabbler wrote:
It adds the intelligence dodge bonus to the dex dodge bonus, which in theory limits it by armour - my own deulist build above uses bracers rather than armour for just this reason. Paizo have since said that this wasn't how it was intended to work - that is should be treated like the dexterity bonus, but is separate from it.
The official CRB FAQ wrote:

Duelist--Canny Defense: Is this ability limited by my armor's maximum Dexterity?

A duelist adds her Int bonus to her AC (not to her Dex bonus to AC). She loses that Int-based AC bonus under any situation where she's denied her Dex bonus to AC.
Her Int-based bonus to AC ignores the max Dex limitation of armor because the Int-based bonus to AC is not a Dex bonus.
(This Int bonus to AC applies to the character's touch AC.)

—Pathfinder Design Team, 03/01/13

They fixed it for us. : )

What a mess. Why the fudge didn't they say it was dodge Bonus? No, that would be too simple. Paizo really irks me sometimes.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Duelist is ALL about flair! I suggest a Rogue 4/ Magus 4/ duelist X approach. Not the most optimal approach, but it will feel fun lining up shocking grasp, SA, precise strike, and static dmg, then criting on a 15+. You will have all sorts of utility, skills, saves, and FLAIR!

Something even more with the flair and a little on the MAD side is a dervish of dawn bard 4 (Aasimar for the fcb to get +4 hit and dmg)/ magus 4/ duelistX. All you really need is a 12 cha to get the most out of your bard lvls. focus on self buffs with bard, direct dmg with magus. You are hurting on feats, but you do alot more dmg than any fighter, and still have the skills for out of combat utility... And FLAIR!!!!!

Addendum to the last build... Even less optimal but still cool. Dervish/ sound striker bard 6/ weapon master 3/ duelist X. Use your Aasimar fcb for weird words to max it out, and pick up gloves of dueling so you get +4 hit/dmg from inspire courage, +3 hit/dmg from weapon training, AND 10d8 + 10 ranged touch attack from weird words when you can't get into range.


Ravingdork wrote:
That was totally easy.

What did she look like at level 1. The build is impressive


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
STR Ranger wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
That was totally easy.
What did she look like at level 1. The build is impressive

A 15th level character when we were asked for 10th level builds? Of course it was easy. I could take either of my builds to 15 and match this or surpass it. With my designs I started at fighter 1 and then immediately took the monk dip - that gives the character skills and the Crane Wing option that makes them defensively very effective so they can survive until their damage gets a boost from an agile weapon. It also gives them way better saves than they would otherwise manage.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I think RD was saying it was easy because he already had the resource available. Quick link and done... That's pretty easy...

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