| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
If a caster (with waterbreathing and a necklace of adaptation) cast rope trick underwater, how would it work?
1) It fails either because the spell just doesn't work underwater or because it can't be cast while submerged.
2) It fills with water.
3)It works normally, staying filled with breathable air.
4)It works, but doesn't renew the air, so it would not provide breathable air for its duration.
5)Some other answer.
If it matters, the hopeful party is lvl 7, and consistes of an air sorcerer, a dinosaur shaman druid, a cleric of Pharasma, 2 fighters (1 wearing armor of the deep), and a bard.
Our GM asked me to see what the board felt was the right answer (though he reserves the right to ingore any and all responses if our on-going story requires it).
I'd say you would be just fine with 4. Think of it like putting a glass upside-down in a vat of water. it doesn't fill with water because the air inside has nowhere to go. The ropetrick xtradimensional space has boundaries so the air can only go one way, into the water, and the water pressure should prevent that. You will however have nowhere to get extra air. I suggest your air sorcerer work on that, or get a bottle of endless air or something.
Well I suppose as long as the opening only allows entrance from below and it came with its own air already in it, then it would not fill with water, but I am not so familiar with the spell to know if it allows entrance from more than one side or has air in it.
Area effects don't cross the rope trick. The water would not cross. The spell allows up to 8 medium creatures to enter the extradimensional space. It does not provide a limit on the space, so there is enough air for them in the space.
My vote is for #3.
I'd say you would be just fine with 4. Think of it like putting a glass upside-down in a vat of water. it doesn't fill with water because the air inside has nowhere to go. The ropetrick xtradimensional space has boundaries so the air can only go one way, into the water, and the water pressure should prevent that. You will however have nowhere to get extra air. I suggest your air sorcerer work on that, or get a bottle of endless air or something.
"+1," as the kids say. Same answer for same reason.
Although I am getting a kick out of the idea of the bottle of endless air pushing air out the bottom, resulting in a steady trickle of giant bubbles surfacing and confusing the hell out of passing ships.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Rope Trick is one of those very ambiguous spells that works fine until someone starts asking 'what if...' questions when it all falls down. It was like this in 3.0 and it would have been nice if Paizo had given it a bit of work.
What if...someone pushes a block of stone to fit flush underneath the entrance? Now there's no way out. So what happens when the spell ends?
What if...someone steps on top of the portal while it's open? Do they fall through, exposing their intestines to the view and assault of those within? Or is it solid? And how much weight can it support? Break DC?
What if...someone walks into the edge of the portal? Is it sharp?
What if...someone casts it while in a moving vessel? Does it move with the vessel? Carry on in a straight line? Stop like an immovable rod?
What if...I just ban this overpowered farrago and save myself these awkward questions?
And as for the OP's question..."one end of the rope rises into the air", so #1.
I'd rule the inside of the space fills with whatever movable medium the spell is created in, air if above ground, water if under water.
The entrance is on the bottom. It's filled with air. It's an extra dimensional space so the air doesn't renew based on the outside environment.
So you can make a little breathable dry area to sleep in underwater (or even in a vacuum if it strikes your fancy).
I too would go with number 3.
...I have a slightly related question, which actually almost came up in a PFS game a few weeks back; Can you use Ropetrick if you're swallowed whole and inside a huge worm-monster? And will this save you from taking swallowing-damage? :)
...sorry for the thread derail! But couldn't help myself when I remembered this :)
Cornielius, I've always assumed #3, though #4 is my next choice.
Rope Trick is one of those very ambiguous spells that works fine until someone starts asking 'what if...' questions when it all falls down. It was like this in 3.0 and it would have been nice if Paizo had given it a bit of work.
I agree.
...I have a slightly related question, which actually almost came up in a PFS game a few weeks back; Can you use Ropetrick if you're swallowed whole and inside a huge worm-monster? And will this save you from taking swallowing-damage? :)
For one thing, the monster will have trouble moving unless it can move the rope hanging from the rope trick. And if you can cast it (concentration checks, enough room, etc...), IMO it would save you from swallowing dam.
Thanks for the input, folks.
Anyone else have an opinion?
hehe. I think in general rope trick what ifs are up to GM discretion. However, I'd personally go with the original intention of the spell.
In this case, since it sounds like the adventure is an underwater campaign, I'd ask the Mage to make a spellcraft check to modify the spell to work underwater. As far as any other interesting scenario, maintaining the spell on any unstable/moving surface would require constant concentration checks or otherwise be unfeasible. Same with pretty much any other scenario (drop something on top of the portal? Massive concentration checks. Enter it in an unusual way? Caster makes concentration checks. Think too hard about it? Concentration checks.
The Rope Trick spell does not create air. So I'd say that the space is filled with whatever the medium the spell is cast in. Water, poison gas, whatever.
A) That's a valid interpretation, however it doesn't actually say that anywhere so don't assume your opinion is the gospel.
B) It creates an extradimensional space. It doesnt clarify how it interacts with the material plane. Perhaps it's self contained. Perhaps not. Hence it's very subject to individual interpretation.
The Rope Trick spell does not create air. So I'd say that the space is filled with whatever the medium the spell is cast in. Water, poison gas, whatever.
The spell says that area effects cannot cross the barrier into the extradimensional area. So, why are you allowing water, poison gas, etc.. to cross? Can the spell tell which are natural and which are spell effect?
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
The Rope Trick spell does not create air. So I'd say that the space is filled with whatever the medium the spell is cast in. Water, poison gas, whatever.The spell says that area effects cannot cross the barrier into the extradimensional area. So, why are you allowing water, poison gas, etc.. to cross? Can the spell tell which are natural and which are spell effect?
Do you allow air in?
Why not water then?
The Rope Trick spell does not create air. So I'd say that the space is filled with whatever the medium the spell is cast in. Water, poison gas, whatever.The spell says that area effects cannot cross the barrier into the extradimensional area. So, why are you allowing water, poison gas, etc.. to cross? Can the spell tell which are natural and which are spell effect?Do you allow air in?
Why not water then?
Well, since the hole is in the bottom, the water shouldn't be able to flow in.
If gas cloud attacks (breath weapons, acid fog, etc..) cannot enter, I am not sure that air does. I have always assumed that air did not go back and forth, that the extradimensional space provided it's own air - that is why it is limited to 8 creatures, with no difference being put in place for the size of creatures.
I also always assumed that freezing or sweltering air/temperature did not cross into the extradimensional space.
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
@ Mistwalker NP, just checking for consistancy.
As I said above, I don't mind magic with 'special effects'. Since the extradimensional space doesn't draw from any plane, I let it be modified by the environment (unless the caster wants to play around with spellcraft for thematic effects).
For example...
Underwater, the walls would be damp to the touch, and it would be a bit cooler (not enough to impare the spell, but enough to remind people they're one targeted dispell away from a bath). In the desert it's going to be warm, etc etc. (Yes, casting it in the Abyss or Nine Hells would be very... interesting) Also it's going to reflect any bloodline traits for sorcerers. Air bloodline is going to have a gentle breeze, fire bloodline a bit warmer, aberrant bloodline the walls are going to feel 'alive' etc etc. again, a spellcraft check (DC 15+ spell level) will turn off 'special effects' (or add them if you want.)
Based on how the 3.5 version worked in Eberron*, I'd, on reflection, have to change my initial answer though. IT would be self contained and have its own air supply for the duration of the spell.
*
This is not a rules question, this is a physics question.*
The upside-down cup in water example is the physics example to use here. The valid rules text is that there is a finite space inside the extradimensional area that you have created. That means that there is a finite amount of air with a finite amount of space that it exists in. This also means that there is a set pressure inside this space. In other words, the air inside can compress if sufficient pressure is given by an outside force. So if they were very deep in the water the water may come into the portal but would never fill the space.
The question of whether air or water is able to cross the barrier is obvious within the spell and moot to the issue at hand. Materials are able to cross the barrier else no one would be able to pass the barrier to begin with. There are specific exclusions as to what can NOT pass the barrier, none of which have anything to do with the question at hand.
*To all those who cry, "dont git yer physics in my D&D" I call BS. Everyone plays with physics in D&D else your characters wouldn't be held to the ground by gravity. The only issue ever happens when physics contradicts RAW which is not the case here. ...so get off it. ;)
We went with "works underwater, but does not refresh air".
I probably would have gone with 2) but have no real problem with 4).
I think 3 is just too powerful for a 2nd level spell. I would certainly allow someone to research a more powerful version though.
|
Our group did this in the last campaign I was in, and we used Option 2. However, the party was under a water breathing spell, and the Oracle cast nap stack while we were in the rope trick. Two hours later, we were good to go. I'm pretty sure most or all of the party were under a freedom of movement effect as well (we were pretty high level when we did this).
In tonight's game, we were in a trapped, flooding room. We cast rope trick and swam up inside, like a diving bell.