Tripping is not as spectacular if you remember that you can't "trip lock" a target. Meaning you can't trip him, then wait for him to stand and trigger a AoO so you can trip him again.
As for his AC, good for him. Monks are supposed to have high AC.
Just double-check his math to be sure.
And remember that no one character can do everything. This monk (and other optimized builds) are usually just one-trick ponies. Eventually, they will find something they are utterly useless at.
Take this player through The Sarkovian Prophecy seat 4 players and try to get them to play up. Cult of the Ebon Destroyer. Wrath of the accursed. I would eventually ask him to start GMing.
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What I'm saying is for the average, may-be-dickish player, which seems to be exactly the kind the OP spoke about.
I already played a character with three stats under 10 that was a obese hobo drunken monk who fought most of the time while crawling on the ground and puking poison, while the current one is the living statue of a failed wrestling star with a 7 in Intelligence and a 8 in Charisma, so please keep your "bad/wrong/fun" allegations for someone else, thanks, I have my own part of strangely fun concepts that may require DM leniency. There is "wanting something weird that requires optimization/fiat" and "wanting to break the game with the most min-maxed omgcombo ever". The second one is not welcomed on the table I play on.
Then you're not talking about min/maxing at all, because min/maxing has nothing to do with being a dickish player. In fact, many people enjoy min/maxing and are not dickish players. Min/maxing is, in fact, not about breaking the game, but getting the most out of the character concept that you can.
Anyone can see how "There is rollplaying weaknesses, and min-maxing like a pig." is a wide judgment on min/maxing.
Rollplaying doesn't prevent someone from roleplaying.
So yeah, bad/wrong/fun.
Peddle elsewhere.
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What I'm saying is for the average, may-be-dickish player, which seems to be exactly the kind the OP spoke about.
I already played a character with three stats under 10 that was a obese hobo drunken monk who fought most of the time while crawling on the ground and puking poison, while the current one is the living statue of a failed wrestling star with a 7 in Intelligence and a 8 in Charisma, so please keep your "bad/wrong/fun" allegations for someone else, thanks, I have my own part of strangely fun concepts that may require DM leniency. There is "wanting something weird that requires optimization/fiat" and "wanting to break the game with the most min-maxed omgcombo ever". The second one is not welcomed on the table I play on.Then you're not talking about min/maxing at all, because min/maxing has nothing to do with being a dickish player. In fact, many people enjoy min/maxing and are not dickish players. Min/maxing is, in fact, not about breaking the game, but getting the most out of the character concept that you can.
Anyone can see how "There is rollplaying weaknesses, and min-maxing like a pig." is a wide judgment on min/maxing.
Rollplaying doesn't prevent someone from roleplaying.
So yeah, bad/wrong/fun.
Peddle elsewhere.
Ok, I guess I probably misspoke or there is a communication issue, since you're preaching to a converted.
There is obviously nothing wrong with "min-maxing like a pig" (litteral translation of a french expression that puts heavy emphasize on something and not meant to be offensive as you probably felt, btw) if you have a fun roleplay and everyone in your group shares the fun, and I guess that's where you seem to believe our opinions digressed. And they don't. We've had our share of min-maxed characters in our table over the last two years, myself included, and yet a fellow half-ogre barbarian was the best, funniest character I ever saw in game, with base stats looking like 18/16/16/5/5/13.Again, my comment applied to the kind of players that *abuse* their right to min-max, making the game less fun for the DM and the fellow players, which seems to be exactly the kind of behavior observed in the case of the OP's player.
So, we have a player who is very good at making unhittable characters. His 8th level ranger/monk has an AC of 46 - legally (unless he's surprised or unprepared, but how often does *that* happen in PFS?). One would think this would make him less capable in other areas, but since he is a focused trip-monkey, he has a huge effect on the scenario without needing to do huge amounts of damage.
(Somewhat off-topic: this player is also a huge rules lawyer, arguing every call made by every GM and driving people bonkers. I may wind up uninviting him for this reason, but I'd like to know how to solve the main issue anyway.)
So, is there a way to challenge him? Are there scenarios which would reduce his effectiveness enough to put him at risk, or at least give him something different to do? In a campaign I could deal with it, but I'd like to find a way in-game to challenge him.
Simply play the NPCs like they want to live. At the NPCs so poorly rounded in PFS scenarios that you can't simply target other defenses that he has, or crowd control him? Is PFS just full of brute enemies who run headlong into battle?
I'm legitimately curious.
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Find a scenario with camel animal companions and have them spit on him... there is no save vs. Nausea.
And its fun.
Sean
So, we have a player who is very good at making unhittable characters. His 8th level ranger/monk has an AC of 46 - legally (unless he's surprised or unprepared, but how often does *that* happen in PFS?). One would think this would make him less capable in other areas, but since he is a focused trip-monkey, he has a huge effect on the scenario without needing to do huge amounts of damage.
(Somewhat off-topic: this player is also a huge rules lawyer, arguing every call made by every GM and driving people bonkers. I may wind up uninviting him for this reason, but I'd like to know how to solve the main issue anyway.)
So, is there a way to challenge him? Are there scenarios which would reduce his effectiveness enough to put him at risk, or at least give him something different to do? In a campaign I could deal with it, but I'd like to find a way in-game to challenge him.
Simply play the NPCs like they want to live. At the NPCs so poorly rounded in PFS scenarios that you can't simply target other defenses that he has, or crowd control him? Is PFS just full of brute enemies who run headlong into battle?
I'm legitimately curious.
I am also curious to know what options have been available. I have heard that some of the scenarios are difficult.
Ok, I guess I probably misspoke or there is a communication issue, since you're preaching to a converted.
There is obviously nothing wrong with "min-maxing like a pig" (litteral translation of a french expression that puts heavy emphasize on something and not meant to be offensive as you probably felt, btw) if you have a fun roleplay and everyone in your group shares the fun, and I guess that's where you seem to believe our opinions digressed. And they don't. We've had our share of min-maxed characters in our table over the last two years, myself included, and yet a fellow half-ogre barbarian was the best, funniest character I ever saw in game, with base stats looking like 18/16/16/5/5/13....
Yah it does sound like those stats could be pretty fun to play with, and you could definately have some sick fun roleplaying wiht him if your group doesnt mind having someone that f@%~s up a lot. Could actually see myself throwing it at my group.
But i do have one question, how did you get those stats ? i mean 2 fives is impossible with point buy unless you play a full blood Orc. So i am genuinly curious.
It was a half-Ogre which is not a standard class. Two of the mental stats were probably already bad.
It was a half-Ogre which is not a standard class. Two of the mental stats were probably already bad.
DOH!
Yah somehow i read it as half-orc. With a half ogre the stats could match.
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Not that I advocate doing this (despite one of the major underlings in one of my upcoming games is literally this, because I'm a bastard-GM), but in the vein of incorporeal undead, adding a few sorcerer levels and specializing in delivering touch spells (since you may deliver a touch spell as part of a natural weapon or unarmed attack) is pretty nasty.
Probably not PFS helpful since it's not a published adventure but, here's the boss underling for a BBEG (1st tier boss, basically).
NE Medium undead sorcerer 3
Init +6; Senses darkvision 60 ft; Perception +4
============================================
AC 21, touch 21, flat-footed 15 (+6 dex, +5 deflection)
Hp 54 (3d8+3d6+30)
Fort +7, Ref +8, Will +7
Defensive Abilities - Incorporeal, channel resist +2; Immune undead traits
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Speed fly 40 ft. (good)
Melee incorporeal touch +6 (1d6 strength damage)
Special Attacks create spawn
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Sorcerer Spells (CL 3rd)
2nd (4/day) - Touch of Idiocy
1st (8/day) - Shield, Shocking Grasp, Mage Armor
0 - Disrupt Undead, Mage Hand, Detect Magic, Message, Prestidigitation, Open/Close
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Str -, Dex 22, Con -, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 20
Base Atk +2, CMB +8, CMD 18
Feats - Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack
Skills - Fly +13, Perception +7, Stealth +9; Racial +4 Stealth (dim light), -4 Stealth (bright light)
Yes, he does have mobility and spring attack, and yes he does move out of and into solid objects during his spring attacks, and he does cast spells like touch of idiocy and then land them along with his Str damaging attack (bam, 1d6 str, 1d6 int, 1d6 wis, 1d6 cha, eat it); yes he does have mage armor AND shield to boost his AC to 29; yes he can deliver +3d6 electricity damage if he casts shocking grasp before delivering it as part of his touch. Yes he does have mage hand that lets him manipulate minor things; yes he does have prestidigitation to let him pull dirty tricks like setting the PC's junk on fire when they're not looking; and yes he is capable of completely bossing around Wraiths and other incorporeal undead by using disrupt undead on them with no way for them to fight back.
And yes, he does love screwing with his enemies, denying them sleep, or otherwise making their lives miserable. It's a wonder my players haven't lynched me as a GM...
Ashiel ... *yoinked!*
Encounter idea:
Advanced template Wood Nymph with Druid advancement levels and an Eagle's Splendor potion for bonus CHA. (harder to save vs the blinding thing) After he's blind, surround him in a Wall of Thorns and drop Creeping Doom on him.
Trip *that* beotch.
I am also curious to know what options have been available. I have heard that some of the scenarios are difficult.
The low tier scenarios are pretty much cakewalk. They have some really weak annoying enemies with low DR and some annoyance abilities, sometimes swarms, and the occasional big boss meat puppet. Things that the average semi thought out character can stomp. My first session I played up, it was like APL 4, I was only 1st level, was able to tank the boss guy (enlarged gnoll with class levels in confined space) Stood over the body of the main hitter (whom got taken out with a crit, he was lvl 4 barbarian) and took the swings on my semi decent AC (dwarf cleric with 19 AC using starting wealth).
When I played stuff more appropriate to the level, levels 1-5 are pretty much easy to deal with. I have a lvl 3 witch that has literately taken 2 points of damage and played up every time. We had one GM get a TPK, but it was against a first level group and they weren't experienced at all. If you were allowed to, an experience group with optimized characters can beat a 3-4 tier scenario with level 1 characters.
But once you get to tier 7+ scenarios the kid gloves come off. You get hit with nasty environments (ever play an entire scenario using high altitude rules, it sucks), poor lighting (deeper darkness), more water scenarios (ever fight incorporeal enemies while underwater with armor on and no swim speed?) I've seen a number of PCs die (usually from bad luck or player stupidity), and you can't really play up because how dangerous the next tiers are to under-leveled characters. I've only played to level 9 scenarios (being lowest level guy, but that character is still 6alchemist/1barbarian so can hold his own).
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Once again, this is about PFS. PATHFINDER SOCIETY ORGANIZED PLAY. There are rules on what GMs can do and cannot. We're supposed to run the tactics as listed in their stat blocks. We're supposed to use the NPCs as listed. Almost all of these suggestions are not possible. Remember, PFS is designed so that everybody can enjoy the game. Most people do not optimize to this degree. This player did, and PFS cannot really handle that level of power if a player chose to exercise it. PFS is ideal for busy people who can get in a 4-5 hour session every few weeks, and it can handle 3-6 players, so missing people are not an issue.
Lots of the level 7 to 11 scenarios are not super difficult. With a good party, most PFS scenarios are not that hard. Sarkorian Prophecy started with difficult encounters, but it ends on a whimper. Wrath of the Accursed is pretty good, and the last fight is difficult, but not overwhelming. Mike Brock and Mark Moreland has announced that in season 4, the scenarios will be balanced for 6 player tables instead of the current 4 player tables. This is a big reason for ease. Most tables are 6, even though 3 is the limit, and 4 is where scenarios are written for. This is the same for APs and modules. Everything Paizo writes appears to be balanced for 4 players.
I recently played the Harrowing. That was challenging module (sanctioned for PFS play). There were at least 4 encounters where my PFS friends and I, with our optimized party had lots of problems and could have TPKed. It's an excellent module, and I would suggest everybody play it.
However, as for this player. THERE IS NOTHING THAT CAN BE DONE IN GAME. If he can overcome an encounter by himself, so be it. GMs should instead tell him outside of the game that they do not want to game with him. If there are multiple GMs all feeling the same way, then man up and tell him and ask him to stop doing what he is doing. If he does not, people will not play with him.
Removed a post and the replies to it. Let's try to be calm and civil when discussing rules/advice/et cetera.
Is it just me or does your avatar look like Nicholas Cage.
There are a number of bits of art in the Pathfinder universe that look like they were inspired by certain real people. This is one of the most notable ones (Dr. Davaulus from CotCT's Seven Days to the Grave).
Honestly it sounds like you get what you ask for. I don't see a point in PFS organized play if you're not going to play specifically by those rules for good or ill. Since to my knowledge there is actually nothing gained by playing in PFS groups above normal groups running the same adventures (seriously if I wanted, there's nothing stopping me from purchasing the PFS scenarios and running them for my own non-PFS group).
Sounds like he's doing what he wants to do, in a subgenre of tabletop RPGs that specifically puts an emphasis on this sort of thing (rules heavy, strict, absolute law, etc). So he's built a character that's really strong against the enemies that the scenarios run, and has done so legally. You're the one who decided to play PFS, so you must deal with the consequences. If he's playing by the rules, then you should respect that just as much as you respect the idea that your NPCs must act in a rudimentary AI-mode. Not inviting him back because his character has been cleverly built within the parameters he was given and is highly effective in this venue makes about as much sense as refusing to budge from any other aspect of PFS.
Seriously, what exactly is the point of PFS play?
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Seriously, what exactly is the point of PFS play?
In a word, portability. I've played my fighter at two different game stores and a convention. I've GM'd for my brother's character (in Minnesota) who's also been played in Missouri and Tennessee.
Over Christmas, I visited my family in Missouri and GM'd for characters with whom I've now also played both online and in person in various venues.
I can't take a character from a homebrew and walk up to a new table and expect to just plunk right down and be fine. But in PFS, I can go across the country to visit someone and play my existing characters, I can get relocated for work and take everything with me, etc.
Another benefit is you don't have to find players first. You can be alone in a new city, find a public PFS game, and just join. You can play Pathfinder to make friends, instead of vice-versa.
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Not that I advocate doing this (despite one of the major underlings in one of my upcoming games is literally this, because I'm a bastard-GM), but in the vein of incorporeal undead, adding a few sorcerer levels and specializing in delivering touch spells (since you may deliver a touch spell as part of a natural weapon or unarmed attack) is pretty nasty.
Probably not PFS helpful since it's not a published adventure but, here's the boss underling for a BBEG (1st tier boss, basically).
** spoiler omitted **
Yes, he does have mobility and spring attack, and yes he does move out of and into solid objects during his spring attacks, and he does cast spells like touch of idiocy and then land them along with his Str damaging attack (bam, 1d6 str, 1d6 int, 1d6 wis, 1d6 cha, eat it); yes he does have mage armor AND shield to boost his AC to 29; yes he can deliver +3d6 electricity damage if he casts shocking grasp before delivering it as part of his touch. Yes he does have mage hand that lets him...
unfortunately it doesnt have the BAB for spring attack. needs BAB 4, you only have 2...
still nice
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I haven't noticed someone mention it, and it's definately not for everyone..
But a PFS Gm is allowed to fudge dice rolls at his own discretion. If you're there at the table in the heat of action and you can't think of anything better, that die roll you dropped can legally be a 'nat 20' any time you want it to be. 46 AC or not, you can hit the PC any time you feel the need.
Naturally, it's not an option that should be used often, as a player who correctly deduces that you're fudging dice to hit him will not Have Fun. However the odd hit here and there may keep the player on his toes and play his character conservatively.
Another suggestion that shouldn't offend the Jiggies of the board:
Demoralize combat action. It ignores his CMD, AC, and his saves. Sure, it's only a -2 to his rolls, but it's something.
Not that I advocate doing this (despite one of the major underlings in one of my upcoming games is literally this, because I'm a bastard-GM), but in the vein of incorporeal undead, adding a few sorcerer levels and specializing in delivering touch spells (since you may deliver a touch spell as part of a natural weapon or unarmed attack) is pretty nasty.
Probably not PFS helpful since it's not a published adventure but, here's the boss underling for a BBEG (1st tier boss, basically).
** spoiler omitted **
Yes, he does have mobility and spring attack, and yes he does move out of and into solid objects during his spring attacks, and he does cast spells like touch of idiocy and then land them along with his Str damaging attack (bam, 1d6 str, 1d6 int, 1d6 wis, 1d6 cha, eat it); yes he does have mage armor AND shield to boost his AC to 29; yes he can deliver +3d6 electricity damage if he casts shocking grasp before delivering it as part of his touch. Yes he does have mage hand that lets him...unfortunately it doesnt have the BAB for spring attack. needs BAB 4, you only have 2...
still nice
Oops, thanks. That means I need to replace it and add more HD to him at a later point. Recurring villains and all. Thank you for catching that. Good thing my PCs haven't encountered him yet! ^-^"
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Another suggestion that shouldn't offend the Jiggies of the board:
Wow, really? Bringing your grudges into random unrelated threads? How about we just discuss the topic of the thread without taking unprovoked pot-shots at other posters, alright? Thanks.
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Depending on whether you consider switching an NPC's spells prepared as being against PFS rules or not..
Blessing of Fervor is a spell that will make a one-dimensional trip-monkey's life hell. And it's appropriate to opposition for an 8th level PC, to boot.
Seriously, what exactly is the point of PFS play?In a word, portability. I've played my fighter at two different game stores and a convention. I've GM'd for my brother's character (in Minnesota) who's also been played in Missouri and Tennessee.
Over Christmas, I visited my family in Missouri and GM'd for characters with whom I've now also played both online and in person in various venues.
I can't take a character from a homebrew and walk up to a new table and expect to just plunk right down and be fine. But in PFS, I can go across the country to visit someone and play my existing characters, I can get relocated for work and take everything with me, etc.
Another benefit is you don't have to find players first. You can be alone in a new city, find a public PFS game, and just join. You can play Pathfinder to make friends, instead of vice-versa.
Okay, then that pretty much settles it. Everyone plays by the same rules, just so you can take your PC from one group to another and be sure it will be accepted. You follow the rules of the society instead of house rules. Sounds like a natural part of it. If you're following the rules that are set out, then that is that. Sounds like it comes with the territory. Some GMs don't like monks for example, but to my knowledge they can't say "no monks in my game" 'cause it's PFS, right?
Once again, this is about PFS. PATHFINDER SOCIETY ORGANIZED PLAY. There are rules on what GMs can do and cannot. We're supposed to run the tactics as listed in their stat blocks. We're supposed to use the NPCs as listed. Almost all of these suggestions are not possible. Remember, PFS is designed so that everybody can enjoy the game. Most people do not optimize to this degree. This player did, and PFS cannot really handle that level of power if a player chose to exercise it. PFS is ideal for busy people who can get in a 4-5 hour session every few weeks, and it can handle 3-6 players, so missing people are not an issue.
Lots of the level 7 to 11 scenarios are not super difficult. With a good party, most PFS scenarios are not that hard. Sarkorian Prophecy started with difficult encounters, but it ends on a whimper. Wrath of the Accursed is pretty good, and the last fight is difficult, but not overwhelming. Mike Brock and Mark Moreland has announced that in season 4, the scenarios will be balanced for 6 player tables instead of the current 4 player tables. This is a big reason for ease. Most tables are 6, even though 3 is the limit, and 4 is where scenarios are written for. This is the same for APs and modules. Everything Paizo writes appears to be balanced for 4 players.
I recently played the Harrowing. That was challenging module (sanctioned for PFS play). There were at least 4 encounters where my PFS friends and I, with our optimized party had lots of problems and could have TPKed. It's an excellent module, and I would suggest everybody play it.
However, as for this player. THERE IS NOTHING THAT CAN BE DONE IN GAME. If he can overcome an encounter by himself, so be it. GMs should instead tell him outside of the game that they do not want to game with him. If there are multiple GMs all feeling the same way, then man up and tell him and ask him to stop doing what he is doing. If he does not, people will not play with him.
I understand not being able to alter monsters by giving them feats, HD, and so one, but to be limited with tactics is nonsense. I am not saying I don't believe you, but if I ever look into PFS, and a GM is that handicapped I want no part of it.
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Okay, then that pretty much settles it. Everyone plays by the same rules, just so you can take your PC from one group to another and be sure it will be accepted. You follow the rules of the society instead of house rules. Sounds like a natural part of it. If you're following the rules that are set out, then that is that. Sounds like it comes with the territory. Some GMs don't like monks for example, but to my knowledge they can't say "no monks in my game" 'cause it's PFS, right?
More or less. If you want to run a private PFS game for a handful of friends and add some extra restrictions, you're allowed to do that. (You can't remove any restrictions, but you're welcome to run a PFS game and invite the five friends who happen to not be using Class X.) But if you're running some public game day or something, yeah, anyone who signs up/arrives with a legal character is welcome to play (unless they're a jerk and get booted).
Another thing I forgot to mention is that you trade the intimacy of a home game for a larger sense of community and constant possibility of meeting new people. So depending on social tastes, it might be a more fun (or less fun) experience.
It's not for everybody, but it has some unique perks.
Depending on whether you consider switching an NPC's spells prepared as being against PFS rules or not..
Blessing of Fervor is a spell that will make a one-dimensional trip-monkey's life hell. And it's appropriate to opposition for an 8th level PC, to boot.
I have been to the PFS boards a few times, and from what I can gather you can not alter the character at all. No changing spells, weapons, feats, skill points, etc...
I did think you had some leeway with tactics, but it seems I might have to check that again.
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I understand not being able to alter monsters by giving them feats, HD, and so one, but to be limited with tactics is nonsense. I am not saying I don't believe you, but if I ever look into PFS, and a GM is that handicapped I want no part of it.
The tactics thing isn't as restrictive as it might sound at first. It's usually something along the lines of "They use attack/spell/ability X until the PCs get close, then switch to attack Y." Or if they're an ambush-type situation, they'll have an extra "They drink/cast X, Y and Z beforehand (already incorporated into stat block), and lie in wait in position B."
Some tactics are even less rigid than that. It's far from being any kind of straight-jacket.
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I really got sick of everybody's house rules. I hate house rules, not because I don't like idea of re-balancing things, but I don't trust the rule created to address the problem. I basically decided if I ever ran games again, I would use a very very very tiny list of rules. I would basically go RAW, with a few bannings for here or there (like Leadership feat). As a player, I hate going into a new game and having to learn house rules and then hoping the players are all normal and not crazy, etc. Ease of entry if really friendly overall as it is basically all the PF products. Most players don't want to create something crazy or over the top. They want to play the gruff dwarf cleric, the tall and graceful elven ranger, the raging and boisterous human barbarian, the friendly halfling bard.
With PFS, I email the GM, I show up, I play for 4-5 hours. If I like the people, I come back. I can attend other sessions to make sure my judgement is right. I can make friends within PFS so we can setup a home game (which I have done). I can make new friends with my similar way of thinking (optimizing is good, RP is good, use both, no or few house rules). I use PFS for an easier way to figuring out if I want to game with these people. I still use it that way even though I have made good friends through PFS, and even though I am a Venture-Lieutenant.
As people get older and have lives outside of gaming, maybe people find the 4-5 hour window much easier to do than 8+ hours (my preference). People have kids, family, school, and just things in their lives. Finding time to do all of those things and fit in games can be difficult. They can jump in with their level 2 barbarian, play with people, and then not play again for months but not be left behind like in a home game. Most experienced PFS players have multiple characters in multiple level ranges. I have 6 myself.
Another fun thing about PFS is I can travel to conventions and play. I can meet players there and find out how they play. Whether they are good or not, what style of PR, what kind of character builds, share new combos that I didn't try myself. Theorycraft is fine, but actual testing needs to be done as well. PFS isn't difficult, which actually makes testing more effective as that's more likely the standard that games are in, instead of the extremeness with other games.
There's a lot of good and bad with PFS. But that's not any different from everybody's own home game. People are simply used to their own games, that's all.
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I have been to the PFS boards a few times, and from what I can gather you can not alter the character at all. No changing spells, weapons, feats, skill points, etc...
Correct.
I did think you had some leeway with tactics, but it seems I might have to check that again.
See my above post. You have to abide by the tactics, but the tactics themselves leave plenty of room anyway. (I'm sure there are a couple of stinkers out there, but I'm speaking to the massive majority here.)
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I have been to the PFS boards a few times, and from what I can gather you can not alter the character at all. No changing spells, weapons, feats, skill points, etc...
I did think you had some leeway with tactics, but it seems I might have to check that again.
There are those who believe that to a tee. (I see that labelling that viewpoint after a prominent poster didn't tickle his funny bone.)
There are those that also believe that a slavish, robotic, complete adherence to the module as presented in every way as being incompatable with an enjoyable D&D/Pathfinder/D20 experience. That's another thread however, so I won't belabor the point.
If, hypothetically, a NPC cleric has the chance to reallocate his spells before the climactic showdown with the PCs.. and has the plausabile in character reason to be aware of the one dimensional trip monkey's capabilities, then in my own opinion there's no reason he can't change his spell list the morning before the fight to include Blessing of Fervor. And then the NPCs in that encounter will not be overly impacted by the awesome-O trip monster by standing up as a swift and w/o provoking AoOs.
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I check the PFS guide. There is no restriction on being held to the tactics in the book. It does not affect me right now, but it might later on.
I don't have it in front of me to quote from, but it says something like you're not allowed to alter/ignore any written, published document relating to the campaign (such as the scenario itself). Also, Mike Brock and Mark Moreland (the ones in charge) have repeatedly stated in no uncertain terms that scenarios are to be run as written.
But again, the written tactics generally aren't very restrictive, and are often what you'd do anyway.
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I check the PFS guide. There is no restriction on being held to the tactics in the book. It does not affect me right now, but it might later on.I don't have it in front of me to quote from, but it says something like you're not allowed to alter/ignore any written, published document relating to the campaign (such as the scenario itself). Also, Mike Brock and Mark Moreland (the ones in charge) have repeatedly stated in no uncertain terms that scenarios are to be run as written.
But again, the written tactics generally aren't very restrictive, and are often what you'd do anyway.
So you almost have to run the creatures like programmed robots who can't deviate from their programming even though you may be able to use a different tactic while using all the creatures legal abilities?
I check the PFS guide. There is no restriction on being held to the tactics in the book. It does not affect me right now, but it might later on.I don't have it in front of me to quote from, but it says something like you're not allowed to alter/ignore any written, published document relating to the campaign (such as the scenario itself). Also, Mike Brock and Mark Moreland (the ones in charge) have repeatedly stated in no uncertain terms that scenarios are to be run as written.
But again, the written tactics generally aren't very restrictive, and are often what you'd do anyway.
I couldn't delete that fast enough. I meant to check some more. As soon as it posted I hit the delete button.
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I was 'lucky' enough to GM the aforementioned player/character last week at my FLGS PFS. The player is likeable enough while not playing, but once you get going he becomes very difficult to judge. Every ruling made is scrutinized and the game becomes a task and not fun. The other players at the table were becoming a bit agitated, rolling their eyes and whatnot.
The character was super-optimized. I went home that night and rebuilt the character from scratch to see if the AC was possible in PFS play, and in short bursts (15 minute adventuring day) it is possible, but not likely, and I will audit this character this coming week much more closely.
In the end, not only was the player being somewhat irritating (although they can by quite nice while not playing), and even after I tried to get them to be more cooperative with the rest of the group, the person in question was oblivious and making the game not fun for anyone else.
I will not let this happen again at another table I run.
Please, if anyone is interested, or is playing PFS, please follow some basic common sense, don't be a jerk, make sure that you and the rest of the people you are playing with are having fun. If you find you are taking the spotlight, make sure that you enjoy it, and then let everyone else have some of the limelight too!
You can't play Pathfinder alone, so make sure to make some friends along the way. You'll appreciate the game that much more.
I check the PFS guide. There is no restriction on being held to the tactics in the book. It does not affect me right now, but it might later on.I don't have it in front of me to quote from, but it says something like you're not allowed to alter/ignore any written, published document relating to the campaign (such as the scenario itself). Also, Mike Brock and Mark Moreland (the ones in charge) have repeatedly stated in no uncertain terms that scenarios are to be run as written.
But again, the written tactics generally aren't very restrictive, and are often what you'd do anyway.
I can't find it. I can't even find the section saying you can't modify monsters, but I am sure it exist. That should have been in the "Table Variation" section IMHO, but I did not see it there.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I can't find it. I can't even find the section saying you can't modify monsters, but I am sure it exist. That should have been in the "Table Variation" section IMHO, but I did not see it there.I check the PFS guide. There is no restriction on being held to the tactics in the book. It does not affect me right now, but it might later on.I don't have it in front of me to quote from, but it says something like you're not allowed to alter/ignore any written, published document relating to the campaign (such as the scenario itself). Also, Mike Brock and Mark Moreland (the ones in charge) have repeatedly stated in no uncertain terms that scenarios are to be run as written.
But again, the written tactics generally aren't very restrictive, and are often what you'd do anyway.
Found it: Table Variation, page 26:
As a Pathfinder Society GM, you have the right and
responsibility to make whatever calls you feel are
necessary at your table to ensure that everyone has
a fair and fun experience. This does not mean you
can contradict rules or restrictions outlined in this
document, a published Pathfinder Roleplaying Game
source, errata document, or official FAQ on paizo.com,
but only you can judge what is right at your table for cases
not covered in these sources.
So basically, you're not allowed to contradict anything that's written, but outside of outright contradictions, you have total freedom to do what's necessary for a great game.
Once again, this is about PFS. PATHFINDER SOCIETY ORGANIZED PLAY. There are rules on what GMs can do and cannot. We're supposed to run the tactics as listed in their stat blocks. We're supposed to use the NPCs as listed. Almost all of these suggestions are not possible.
So what sort of suggestions are you looking for, exactly, if your hands are tied regarding monsters, NPCs, etc?
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...he's not cheating, he's just very good at building characters.
As to the rules lawyering, I have 5 GMs who have asked to not have him at their table, and at least as many players as well. (i am not one of them, by the way). For different reasons, though: GMs don't want a player who argues every call and tries to find a grey area to exploit every round; other players don't like being overshadowed and having someone interrupt their turn with a long lecture on what they "should" be doing.
I am part of the same group as lamplighter so I think I know who he is referring too. When I have played at the same table as the person in question, he often argues with the gm, more than anybody else I have seen. Last time I played with him, his character was around lv 5-6 with an ac around 35.
Sadly I don't think there is much you can do about this in PFS.
This thread drives me bonkers. I guess I just see things very differently.
For me, it's not about the build. I could care less how broken a PC is. It's about the player and his attitude towards the game.
I probably would have kicked this guy out of our regular, public PFS gameday long ago (after giving the player a chance to improve after a private discussion or two).
See, I believe it's the local coordinator's job to make sure that the scenarios he runs are the best he can be...and that does mean protecting his players from other players.
For me (and not necessarily referring to the player that the OP is talking about, but any disruptive/powergaming/non-contributing player), scenarios are too precious to allow to be ruined by bad players, bad builds, rule lawyers, or selfish players.
As local coordinator, I would have privately talked to this guy long ago, asked him to play that build elsewhere. (Not saying he can't play it, but only that he can't play it at my coordinated games...don't be a jerk.)
I would have also privately mentioned that rules lawyering is not acceptable.
If he persisted, I would disallow him from my events.
And I wouldn't feel bad about it at all. At a certain point, when "5 GMs" refuse to run for the guy, he's no longer worth the time and energy to keep him around. He's hurting the game.
* * *
I feel there is a sense of entitlement among some PFS players that comes across in a few ways:
1) "My build is legal...you have to let me play it."
2) "No, I don't want to judge or contribute back to the PFS community."
I won't cater to either. They can either play nicely with others (regardless of the build) and contribute back to the community or they can go start their own PFS gameday and organize their own games.
I'm not telling them they can't play PFS...they can go start their own thing.
-Pain
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Unfortunately, there isn't much you can do about the rules lawyering... even people that have admitted they don't play the game like to rules lawyer. If he's creating that much of a hostile atmosphere, talk to him and let hime know that you'd appreciate if he could keep the discussion about the miniscule rules til after the game, but that you appreciate when he speaks up regarding a major rule; but there have been complaints about the length of the game due to the constant interruptions. Then if he's still disruptfull you can kick him, but you've given him fair warning
No, there is plenty we can do with rules lawyers, FluffyKitty. Like you said above.
When I'm judge, here is exactly how I handle rules lawyers (PFS or not):
1) At the third instance of lawyering, I politely make it clear that I know what I'm doing and if I need assistance with the rules, I will ask for opinions.
2) At fourth instance (or first 'argument'), I invite the player *away* from the table for a private discussion about how I run things and what I consider to be proper etiquette at my tables. I keep things calm and friendly. It's *very* important to do this away from the table: it minimizes the drama and ego and loss of face for everyone.
3) At fifth instance, I invite him away from the table and ask him to leave the game. In PFS, I'll give him a chronicle regardless of where we are in the scenario (just because I don't want the jerk to ruin anyone else's fun playing the mod again).
4) I return to the table and run the mod, deflecting any questions about what happened to the end of the scenario.
I wish PFS GMs and local coordinators would stop feeling so helpless when it comes to bad players. I wish they would realize that they are *NOT* powerless and only they can set good examples for good play.
As GMs, we can dismiss players from our tables.
I encourage and promote good team play.
I discourage and nullify bad play because I don't want my new players to think that's how things are done.
-Pain
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To be fair to Lamplighter, I know he has had numerous discussions with certain individuals -- it's tough when you really want to be the better person (and I know Lamplighter is most certainly so).
It is my responsibility as a GM to hold people at my table accountable.
Oh, I don't mean to criticize Lamplighter. I like him though I've never met him.
I think this thread was an epiphany for me, actually. When I coordinate, I'm just 'done' with catering to jerks, rules-lawyers, or people badly playing overpowered builds. There are too few mods to have them ruined...I'll give them a chance to do better, learn, and grow, but there is no need to waste time and energy on those who won't give back or grow up.
People are asking about the build, how high the AC is, etc., is missing the big picture: the guy is a rules lawyer and repeated GMs won't judge him. Unless this guy is a frequent judge who burps sunshine and rainbows, I don't know why he's still around.
Does he judge? Contribute in some way?
-Pain