http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/simulacrum
From the point of view of a GM, what do you guys think about players paying an npc wizard to cast Simulacrum for them. It allows you to get 10th level slaves ,basically for very little. Also, they can do this to get a servant that can craft them items which greatly expands their wealth.
These Simularcra would be unquestioningly loyal... to the wizard that created them. It might make for an interesting storyline.
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http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/simulacrum
From the point of view of a GM, what do you guys think about players paying an npc wizard to cast Simulacrum for them. It allows you to get 10th level slaves ,basically for very little. Also, they can do this to get a servant that can craft them items which greatly expands their wealth.
Seems like an interesting way to produce fake-slaves, actually. I could see that actually being a business offering for certain mages. Are you a 13th level wizard with item creation feats? First, make copies of yourself. For 3,000 gp you have a loyal 6th level copy of yourself who can do stuff like Scribe Scrolls, and Craft Wondrous Items. You could have a team of these little suckers workin' for 'im. He could actually sell them or rent them out to adventurers too.
Would I consider buying a 6th level wizard for 6,000 gp? Well, actually, yeah I would. That would be pretty awesome. I could see these guys getting rented out to armies to toss fireballs for them.
I'd be about like golems. You can buy golems, but the creator always has final control over them. Might make for a cool NPC. Kind of like Cait Sith from Final Fantasy VII. Reeves was adventuring with your party for a long time through his puppet.
Personally, I think most mages would be hesitant to sell simulacrums of themselves, since that kind of ruins most return business. Easier to corner the market on magic item creation by keeping your simulacrums in your own little sweatshop out back, producing 50+ scrolls, elixers, and feather tokens every day of the week. The more money you made, the more simulacrums you could create, to expand your presence in the magic item economy.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/simulacrum
From the point of view of a GM, what do you guys think about players paying an npc wizard to cast Simulacrum for them. It allows you to get 10th level slaves ,basically for very little. Also, they can do this to get a servant that can craft them items which greatly expands their wealth.
Seems like an interesting way to produce fake-slaves, actually. I could see that actually being a business offering for certain mages. Are you a 13th level wizard with item creation feats? First, make copies of yourself. For 3,000 gp you have a loyal 6th level copy of yourself who can do stuff like Scribe Scrolls, and Craft Wondrous Items. You could have a team of these little suckers workin' for 'im. He could actually sell them or rent them out to adventurers too.
Would I consider buying a 6th level wizard for 6,000 gp? Well, actually, yeah I would. That would be pretty awesome. I could see these guys getting rented out to armies to toss fireballs for them.
I'd be about like golems. You can buy golems, but the creator always has final control over them. Might make for a cool NPC. Kind of like Cait Sith from Final Fantasy VII. Reeves was adventuring with your party for a long time through his puppet.
Personally, I think most mages would be hesitant to sell simulacrums of themselves, since that kind of ruins most return business. Easier to corner the market on magic item creation by keeping your simulacrums in your own little sweatshop out back, producing 50+ scrolls, elixers, and feather tokens every day of the week. The more money you made, the more simulacrums you could create, to expand your presence in the magic item economy.
Love it. Love everything about it.
My next character is a Wizard.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/simulacrum
From the point of view of a GM, what do you guys think about players paying an npc wizard to cast Simulacrum for them. It allows you to get 10th level slaves ,basically for very little. Also, they can do this to get a servant that can craft them items which greatly expands their wealth.
Seems like an interesting way to produce fake-slaves, actually. I could see that actually being a business offering for certain mages. Are you a 13th level wizard with item creation feats? First, make copies of yourself. For 3,000 gp you have a loyal 6th level copy of yourself who can do stuff like Scribe Scrolls, and Craft Wondrous Items. You could have a team of these little suckers workin' for 'im. He could actually sell them or rent them out to adventurers too.
Would I consider buying a 6th level wizard for 6,000 gp? Well, actually, yeah I would. That would be pretty awesome. I could see these guys getting rented out to armies to toss fireballs for them.
I'd be about like golems. You can buy golems, but the creator always has final control over them. Might make for a cool NPC. Kind of like Cait Sith from Final Fantasy VII. Reeves was adventuring with your party for a long time through his puppet.
Personally, I think most mages would be hesitant to sell simulacrums of themselves, since that kind of ruins most return business. Easier to corner the market on magic item creation by keeping your simulacrums in your own little sweatshop out back, producing 50+ scrolls, elixers, and feather tokens every day of the week. The more money you made, the more simulacrums you could create, to expand your presence in the magic item economy.
Love it. Love everything about it.
My next character is a Wizard.
Yay! Do I get another post-fave? ^-^
EDIT: Oh yay, I did! *squeee*
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/simulacrum
From the point of view of a GM, what do you guys think about players paying an npc wizard to cast Simulacrum for them. It allows you to get 10th level slaves ,basically for very little. Also, they can do this to get a servant that can craft them items which greatly expands their wealth.
Seems like an interesting way to produce fake-slaves, actually. I could see that actually being a business offering for certain mages. Are you a 13th level wizard with item creation feats? First, make copies of yourself. For 3,000 gp you have a loyal 6th level copy of yourself who can do stuff like Scribe Scrolls, and Craft Wondrous Items. You could have a team of these little suckers workin' for 'im. He could actually sell them or rent them out to adventurers too.
Would I consider buying a 6th level wizard for 6,000 gp? Well, actually, yeah I would. That would be pretty awesome. I could see these guys getting rented out to armies to toss fireballs for them.
I'd be about like golems. You can buy golems, but the creator always has final control over them. Might make for a cool NPC. Kind of like Cait Sith from Final Fantasy VII. Reeves was adventuring with your party for a long time through his puppet.
Personally, I think most mages would be hesitant to sell simulacrums of themselves, since that kind of ruins most return business. Easier to corner the market on magic item creation by keeping your simulacrums in your own little sweatshop out back, producing 50+ scrolls, elixers, and feather tokens every day of the week. The more money you made, the more simulacrums you could create, to expand your presence in the magic item economy.
Love it. Love everything about it.
My next character is a Wizard.
Yay! Do I get another post-fave? ^-^
EDIT: Oh yay, I did! *squeee*
Yes, yes you did. Here's a congratulatory cookie. -gives chocolate chip oatmeal pecan sugar peanut butter cookie-
To make things silly.... My next character is a Scroll Master/Scroll Scholar wizard (which goes a few levels into cyphermage)... Beware my scroll army! When one is about to die, they unleash their scroll and read the Explosive Runes! Kamikaze Simulacrum Warrior FTW!
Have another cookie
Love that spell....
A Simularcrum with the Craft Wondrous Item feat and enough gold, could craft an item that can make new Simularcra. All that's needed is a 10th level "mould" who had the CWI feat at 5th level, and they could take over the world with identical copies of themselves!
A Simularcrum with the Craft Wondrous Item feat and enough gold, could craft an item that can make new Simularcra. All that's needed is a 10th level "mould" who had the CWI feat at 5th level, and they could take over the world with identical copies of themselves!
\
It's one of the reasons why I've never bothered banning it. For every abuse a PC could bring with it, it opens up twelve more doors of GMing potential. :P
Have another cookie
Love that spell....
Yay! *noms both cookies*
Armies of high-level simulacrums are devastatingly effective in Kingmaker. Just sayin' :)
Armies of high-level simulacrums are devastatingly effective in Kingmaker. Just sayin' :)
I've heard a basic planar T-Rex via Summon Monster VII is pretty awesome in it too. :P
Armies of high-level simulacrums are devastatingly effective in Kingmaker. Just sayin' :)I've heard a basic planar T-Rex via Summon Monster VII is pretty awesome in it too. :P
Why, so it is! :D (Although tyrannosaurs make crummy armies...)
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Why, so it is! :D (Although tyrannosaurs make crummy armies...)Armies of high-level simulacrums are devastatingly effective in Kingmaker. Just sayin' :)I've heard a basic planar T-Rex via Summon Monster VII is pretty awesome in it too. :P
The tiny arms have a hard time weilding greatswords and they're ability to wear armor is S+#!e.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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The tiny arms have a hard time weilding greatswords and they're ability to wear armor is S!~%e.
Bowler Hat Guy: What's going on? Why aren't you seizing the boy?
Dinosaur: (in dinosaur language) I have a big head, and little arms. I'm just not sure how well this plan was thought through.
Had an idea a while back while considering how to increase the number of HD of undead I could animate, creating simulacrae who then animate could build you a vast undead army!
Simulacra is one of the best things.
Some of my spellcasters use this spell to create troll fighter bodyguards.
Troll sims have regeneration and thus don't need costly repairs. :D
Some of my spellcasters use this spell to create troll fighter bodyguards.
Troll sims have regeneration and thus don't need costly repairs. :D
That's a great idea, thanks!
Fortunately simulacrum return to their constituent components and then melt upon hitting 0 or less HP. Otherwise, Tarrasque simulacrums would be be a huge pain in the butt to kill, since there's little way to make them stay dead beyond turning them into zombies.
Tarrasque, king of the monsters vs a horde of scientifically constructed false-Tarrasque that we call Bio-Tarraski. The only place cool enough to deal with such a threat would be Space-Tokyo or Sigil. :P
Of course, it needs the proper Mood Music. Now all we need is to make a league of wizards who battle their simulacrums in a grand tournament, two travel across the planes to do battle with the arcane masters of different elemental planes, only to later fight the pantheon itself for right to be the supreme Simulacrum master! Of course, just as you defeat the final deity, you discover that their is an overlord deity who is greater than all the other deities, and then you battle him to go down in history. I have a theme for that epic as well. EDIT: Scratch it, this one would be better. :P
I have an alchemist who uses Greater Alchemical Simulacrum (which is 5 times cheaper than the actual spell) to make copies of himself. With Craft Wondrous Item and Craft Arms and Armor and Cooperative Crafting, and Infusions, I have lots of fun.
For instance, I have just 4 copies of myself which use cooperative crafting to make 10,000 gp market price per day when I'm in a hurry. Each one crafts me 6 level 1 extracts, 4 level two and 3 level 3 that I can just take with me every day (but don't have to). Who doesn't want that extra healing, Alchemical Allocations and Fly or Heroism for the whole party? Do I want a couple different mutagens? No problem. With that many Alchemists, Poison isn't as bad to manufacture either, and they can have you swimming in alchemical items as back ups for if you run out of bombs. Did I mention that they all have bombs too? And since they run things off of touch attacks, they still hit a lot of High level creatures.
A 14th level alchemist with some simulacrums (I would say about 15-20) can take out the Terrasque with Frost bombs rather easily, and leave some Simulacrum to constantly Coup de Gras the Terrasque while he is down. Since they are constructs, they don't need to sleep, and can do it indefinitely.
Oh and Spontaneous Healing is nice to keep them fresh as well. I dare say an Alchemist is better at Simulacrum than a Wizard is.
Oterisk, unless you have Master Craftsman, I don't think you can do that with an alchemist since they aren't spellcasters.
First of all, my character does have it.
Second of all, click here. My GM tends to agree with James Jacobs, so it isn't really a problem for me.
Since they are constructs, they don't need to sleep, and can do it indefinitely.
Is there some sort of difference between regular simulacrums and the alchemist version (I haven't actually seen the alchemist version)? Because normal simulacrums aren't constructs. They're the same creature type as the creature you copy, and there's nothing to suggest that they don't have the normal traits (including eating, breathing, sleeping, etc) that their real versions have.
I had always assumed they are constructs, but I guess it is possible that they aren't.
First of all, my character does have it.
Second of all, click here. My GM tends to agree with James Jacobs, so it isn't really a problem for me.
Alright then.
A Simularcrum with the Craft Wondrous Item feat and enough gold, could craft an item that can make new Simularcra. All that's needed is a 10th level "mould" who had the CWI feat at 5th level, and they could take over the world with identical copies of themselves!I do not allow Simulacra with item creation feats. Being souless constructs, they lack the creative spark neccessary.
And before Ashiel jumps in my face, I won't claim that there's the slightest bit of RAW support for my position, I just find the idea well above my level of munchkin tolerance.
The core rules are well above the tolerance of many people, munchkin or not. You were honest and said you simply wouldn't allow it; but you noted a difference between the rules and your judgment. +Respect to you, sir.
There's core rules... and then there's twisted manipulation of core rules well beyond the RAI.The core rules are well above the tolerance of many people, munchkin or not. You were honest and said you simply wouldn't allow it; but you noted a difference between the rules and your judgment. +Respect to you, sir.A Simularcrum with the Craft Wondrous Item feat and enough gold, could craft an item that can make new Simularcra. All that's needed is a 10th level "mould" who had the CWI feat at 5th level, and they could take over the world with identical copies of themselves!I do not allow Simulacra with item creation feats. Being souless constructs, they lack the creative spark neccessary.
And before Ashiel jumps in my face, I won't claim that there's the slightest bit of RAW support for my position, I just find the idea well above my level of munchkin tolerance.
And I'm sure you're the authority on that, right?
Someone show me where it says a Sim gets to have fears.
If someone even mentions "well it doesn't say they can't" then you will lose all respect and be ignored.
Assuming you mean "feats", not "fears", then it says so right in the spell description: "It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only half of the real creature's levels or HD (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD)." Even if it didn't say that they have feats explicitly (though it does), everything with hit dice has the appropriate number of feats.
Since a Sim is an illusion and only partially real, I would say that the items it would try to create wouldn't be real.
That's a very nice adjucation (and thus perfectly valid), but rules-wise (RAW) it doesn't hold up. Also, it's more tenuous than in 3.X, because now you don't even have to be a caster to make stuff (with master craftsman). Again, though, it's a really nice choice for any GM to make, if they wish to take it that way.
That's a fine houserule, but if you're arguing that it's in any way a reasonable interpretation of the rules, the burden of proof is clearly on you at this point. Item creation feats are feats like any other feats.
I wouldn't think even a little less of anyone who said "For mechanical and/or versimilitude reasons, I don't want simulacra to be making things in campaigns I run. Here's a flavor justification for why they can't." There's nothing in the rules, however, that suggests that it was even the intent that simulcra couldn't have item creation feats. (Or any other random type of feat you'd choose.)
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I consider myself something of an expert where simulacrum is concerned.
To my knowledge, the following is a
- The GM determines what abilities a sim does or does no retain. In general, abilities inappropriate for its reduced level should not be retained (though they are retained by default prior to GM arbitration).
- Sims keep the original's alignment. A paladin sim, for example, would be Lawful Good, and would quickly lose its paladin powers if ordered by its master to violate its code.
- A sim's creature type is the same as the original (they are not constructs).
- You MUST heal a sim's damage by repairing it in a lab with costly components (as per the spell description), they cannot be healed by any other means, not even through fast healing or regeneration possessed by the original (though they keep these abilities, they don't regain hp).
- The GM decides how the level halving process proceeds. A troll (6 HD) fighter 6, for example, could end up with 3 HD and 3 fighter levels, 6 HD and no fighter levels, or something altogether different. The developers recommend splitting it across the board, however, as in the former example. A troll (6 HD) fighter 5/rogue 4/wizard 3/cleric 1 would be a troll (3 HD) fighter 2/rogue 2/wizard 1 as a sim, for example.
- You DO have to subtract 1 ability score point from the sim's stats that it gained every 4 levels, provided it loses enough HD/levels to warrant it.
- The disguise DC for making a sim look like the original when the caster has never seen the original is arbitrated by the GM, though the developers recommend making the DC really high for powerful creatures.
- Unusual monster abilities not directly related by HD/levels (such as many racial EX, SP, and SU abilities) are to be arbitrated by the GM. Developers recommend halving spellcasting abilities. Though, by default, all such abilities ARE retained, it is appropriate for the GM to not give out inappropriate things like genie-sims that grant wishes (which is something that certain developers have stated as not allowing in their own games).
- Sims cannot be dispelled.
- Sims are not creatures, but are magical effects, specifically shadow-based illusions. Regardless, they ARE treated as creatures for the purposes of the game's mechanics (such as what spells they can and cannot be targeted by).
- A sim, despite being made of ice and snow, is not any more likely to melt during the summer or from a fireball's heat than any other creature of its type.
- Detect magic does not detect sims. They detect as creatures.
- True seeing DOES reveal a sim, showing it to be an animate stature made of ice and snow.
- Sims do not possess any immunities (such as to mind-affecting effects) unless the original creatures shared such an immunity.
- Sims have all the same limitations as the original; for example, a sim must breath, eat, and sleep to survive if the original needs to.
- The only creature a sim cannot mimic is an incorporeal creature (since the sim's body must be made out of material ice and snow). However, some developers do not allow sims of non-living creatures such as constructs and undead in their home games (since they have their own methods of creation).
- Sims get their magical powers from the same source as the original. A sim of a cleric gets it from faithful worship to a deity, a wizard from his sage-mind, a sorcerer from his bloodline, etc.
- Sims have their own personality (typically the same as the original, though this may diverge in time). This does not allow them to disobey their master, however.
- A sim without a master (such as one who died) continues to exist as a free-willed sim.
- The developers manually assign CRs to sims (essentially eye-balling it by comparing it to other creatures). Where appropriate, GMs should too. As a rule of thumb, a sim with class levels should have a CR similar to that of a normal NPC with the same number of class levels (a sim of a 10th-level wizard would have a CR of 4, just like a 5th-level wizard, for example). For creatures with HD, rather than class levels, you should start by comparing it to creatures with the same number of HD as the sim.
- The GM decides what kind of sim a PC can or cannot make. The spell does not give the player carte blanch to shop through the Bestiary. Some developers house rule that you must have a piece of the original creature (something previous versions of the spell required).
- The spell is not going to get a major re-write (such as its own creature template) any time soon.
- It is recommended that sims do not retain any kind of "create spawn" or similar ability, as that would allow them to become more powerful, something the spell specifically prohibits. (It's worth noting that this may also allow the GM to rule against a sim creating other sims, magic items, or anything else of permanency that would increase its strength.)
- A sim of an animal companion, eidolon, familiar, or similar bonded creature has half the abilities of the target creature, just as with any other simulacrum. It doesn't count as a familiar or an animal companion or an eidolon for the purposes of anything else.
- A sim retains the memories/intelligence of the original creature, which makes them great for interrogation. This also makes the spell great for things like asking questions of the long dead (using speak with dead and similar divination magic).
- A GM is expected to keep this spell from being abused, as he would be expected to keep ANY aspect of his game from being abused.
- A sim's age is the same as the age of the source when the sim is created, but it ages at the same rate as if it were alive. Its life expectancy is the same as the creature it duplicates. Simulacrum is NOT a way you can cheat death from old age.
(Half of which I obtained from the developers myself.)
I think they have provided enough clarification on the matter, do you not think so? <--(links to the above clarifications)
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Useful thread.
Rav compilation is handy and Ashiel suggested version of the spell is well thought.
As an houserule I would say that a simulacrum memory is dependant on the knowledge of his creator, not on the knowledge of the original. So if I were to make a simulacrum of Micheal Jackson, he would know about the original what I know, not have the memories of the real person. This will cut down the usefulness of the simulacrum as a interrogation tool.
Adding pieces of the original creature to the simulacrum will give him some of the original memories, up to the time at which the pieces were taken. A 50% of recalling specific details will be reasonable.
If that was put into the rules sorcerers could still make them. They don't need materials.
If that was put into the rules sorcerers could still make them. They don't need materials.
Yeah. Eschew Materials makes it a moot point. :P
Someone show me where it says a Sim gets to have fears.
I know you meant feats, but this made me laugh. Simulacrums have no immunity to fear unless they are simulacrums of creatures with immunity to fear (paladins, constructs, etc). Thus they can be intimidated, paralyzed by a mummy's fear aura, and so forth. A simulacrum could in fact be panicked by fear, drop everything and flee like a fake little girl.
Wizard - "Ah damn it, he got panicked again. Good help is so hard to create these days."
While we're on it, also things like charm, confusion, compulsion, patterns, and so forth affect them as well, unless it's a copy of something that is immune. Since certain effects might even allow you to take control of the simulacrum, you might have your simulacra temporarily stolen from your use if your opponent has particularly potent Charisma for the more forceful application of certain enchantments.