Paizo Top Nav Branding
  • Hello, Guest! |
  • Sign In |
  • My Account |
  • Shopping Cart |
  • Help/FAQ
About Paizo Messageboards News Paizo Blog Help/FAQ
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game

Starfinder


Pathfinder Society


Pathfinder Adventure Card Game


Pathfinder Adventure Card Game

The Complete Sorcerer Guide.


Advice

1 to 50 of 136 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>

7 people marked this as a favorite.

I've seen a lot of threads asking for help with Sorcerers builds lately. There are very good Wizard guides in the forum, but the few Sorcerers' guides aren't complete (and they don't seem to be completed any time soon)

So I just made one.

Here you go:

Inner Power. A guide to Sorcerers


I really like sorcerers so I'll definitely be checking this out.


No mention of intensify spell, if your building a blaster it should be sky blue and the first metamagic feat you pick up, probably at level 5 if you've built your caster level correctly.

Agree on crossblooded, its a dip archtype not a full progression one. I didn't read all of your bloodline analysis but there are quite obviously good or bad options depending on what you want your sorcerer to do, its more of a fluff choice unless your heavily optimising. If in doubt arcane is best and you have that rated blue so good stuff.

I'm not sure on the spirit of the rules when using a lesser quicken rod on a empowered maximised fireball cast from an 8th level slot, if thats how you play fair enough but that wouldn't fly with my group. One thing to mention is that other than quicken all rods increase casting time to a full round action for sorcerers.

Also surprised you mentioned spell perfection and not spontaneous metafocus, if your using one spell a lot using its standard casting time is worth a feat.

Your spell section is strong, theres a lot to be said for the shadow spells if you can use feats from inner sea magic, even if you cannot use that book persistant shadow conjuration/evocation with illusion focus and greater can make excellent multi purpose spells. Obviously any spell that covers many bases is ideal for a sorcerer and you get that across well.

Your item selection is great, nice idea with the duelling weapon.


Just skimmed it, but I like it a lot so far. A must-read for newer players.


Very nice!


Added your guide to the Guide to the Guides


I'd say add Intensify Spell to it.

Otherwise? Awesome as all hell. :D


No mention of eldritch heritage?

None at all?

Does having two sets of bloodline powers not interest at all?


I like the lengthy discussion of options and tactics and style. Too many guides are just color-coded lists of feats.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

I think it's worth noting in the Races section that the Sage bloodline makes Elf sorcerers totally viable; same goes for the Empyreal bloodline for dwarves.

Edit: PS mad props for writing a guide—it looks like a whole lot of work. I know I have benefitted a lot from all the guides on these boards.


tonyz wrote:
I like the lengthy discussion of options and tactics and style. Too many guides are just color-coded lists of feats.

I would have preffered more dissertation on individual options like.

Claws: This sucks badly. Yes, even if you are a gish.

Why?

Lots of the guide is like this. One doesn't have to repeat themselves as simple reference to a previous entry will do but I think some explanation might go a long way.

Liberty's Edge

I think you're underrating AC in general, and the Dodge Feat specifically. It's not precisely great, but it's not actively awful either, I'd rate it a solid Orange.

I also think you should probably make the note that Elemental Bloodline (and the Elemental Body spells, specifically) are pretty good if your GM does let you cast in Elemental form. I mean, it's not like that's actually contradicting the rules, just interpreting them one of two possible ways...meaning that the guide shouldn't assume one way or the other.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'm going to deconstruct your section on races.

1. Dwarves. Yes they get a charisma penalty. There are a fair number of sorcerer builds that don't rely on saving throw DC's as the all or nothing of success. Dwarves have several things going for them if you're looking to build a sorcerer around melee, especially Dragon Disciple type builds.

2. Elves. Spell Penetration is not something to be dismissed lightly, as those spell resistant folks are out there. In addition to the perception and low light vision abilities, elves have one thing going for them that can aid immensely in survival chance of lower level sorcerers.

-Built in bow proficiency. Even for a sorcerer, 20 arrows are more available than 20 spells. If you make an Elven sorcerer, budget for a bow, nothing fancy, a short bow will give you more combat options at least for the first few levels. Having that Dex bonus not only makes this more useful, but it also means going that much sooner in the initative count.


TarkXT wrote:
tonyz wrote:
I like the lengthy discussion of options and tactics and style. Too many guides are just color-coded lists of feats.

I would have preffered more dissertation on individual options like.

Claws: This sucks badly. Yes, even if you are a gish.

Why?

Lots of the guide is like this. One doesn't have to repeat themselves as simple reference to a previous entry will do but I think some explanation might go a long way.

fair criticism. I'll try to explain it a bit more. Claws suck because they are limited to a few uses per day. Even if you plan to build a gish, you want to be able to fight as long as you need. Take a sword, or spiked gauntlets.


LazarX wrote:

I'm going to deconstruct your section on races.

1. Dwarves. Yes they get a charisma penalty. There are a fair number of sorcerer builds that don't rely on saving throw DC's as the all or nothing of success. Dwarves have several things going for them if you're looking to build a sorcerer around melee, especially Dragon Disciple type builds.

2. Elves. Spell Penetration is not something to be dismissed lightly, as those spell resistant folks are out there. In addition to the perception and low light vision abilities, elves have one thing going for them that can aid immensely in survival chance of lower level sorcerers.

-Built in bow proficiency. Even for a sorcerer, 20 arrows are more available than 20 spells. If you make an Elven sorcerer, budget for a bow, nothing fancy, a short bow will give you more combat options at least for the first few levels. Having that Dex bonus not only makes this more useful, but it also means going that much sooner in the initative count.

I still don't see dwarves working, even as gishes. 20' movement and -2 cha for a +2 con. I'd rather build a human and put the +2 to Con, use the extra feat for EWP and get a free extra spell per level.

Elves Spell Penetration is nice, but humans get it at first level too. If they choose not to, it is because they have something better to spend their feat on.
A bow doesnt give you anything better than a crossbow imho. Not until you get 2 attacks. By then, you shouldnt be attacking imo.

Can you build dwarven and elven sorcerers? Yes, but they'll be worse than hunans halfelves and halforcs.


Egoish wrote:

No mention of intensify spell, if your building a blaster it should be sky blue and the first metamagic feat you pick up, probably at level 5 if you've built your caster level correctly.

Agree on crossblooded, its a dip archtype not a full progression one. I didn't read all of your bloodline analysis but there are quite obviously good or bad options depending on what you want your sorcerer to do, its more of a fluff choice unless your heavily optimising. If in doubt arcane is best and you have that rated blue so good stuff.

I'm not sure on the spirit of the rules when using a lesser quicken rod on a empowered maximised fireball cast from an 8th level slot, if thats how you play fair enough but that wouldn't fly with my group. One thing to mention is that other than quicken all rods increase casting time to a full round action for sorcerers.

Also surprised you mentioned spell perfection and not spontaneous metafocus, if your using one spell a lot using its standard casting time is worth a feat.

Your spell section is strong, theres a lot to be said for the shadow spells if you can use feats from inner sea magic, even if you cannot use that book persistant shadow conjuration/evocation with illusion focus and greater can make excellent multi purpose spells. Obviously any spell that covers many bases is ideal for a sorcerer and you get that across well.

Your item selection is great, nice idea with the duelling weapon.

I oversighted intensify, will add it later. However, I wouldt color it sky blue. At 6th level, you can cast fireballs instead of burning hands. Intensified burning hands means you are bound to 5' steps. At low levels being so close to the danger make me nervous. But It's a feat you want to take eventually. LvL 13, or before that if you are taking extra caster levels in evocation/fire.

Metamagic rods work like that, it is on the FAQ. Ill search a link later(martphones suck for linking). Rods are the way to go. At level 8 it is easy to have an empowered rod and the maximize feat on your magic lineage fireball. That means 4d6+58 in 20'. Against CR8 mobs of creatures, that is serious hurt.

Spontaneous metafocus is another oversight. Will add later, and rate it blue.

I don't own inner sea magic, will check later with a friend, I'm sure there are a lot of goodies there :). Shadow evocation is an awesome spell, will have to add simething about it too. Limited Wish will need an entry too.


TarkXT wrote:

No mention of eldritch heritage?

None at all?

Does having two sets of bloodline powers not interest at all?

first level powers are quite underwhelming in general, and it is quite feat intensive otherwise. However, taking a familiar is good enough, so the feat is worth the cost just for that option.


gustavo iglesias wrote:
LazarX wrote:

I'm going to deconstruct your section on races.

1. Dwarves. Yes they get a charisma penalty. There are a fair number of sorcerer builds that don't rely on saving throw DC's as the all or nothing of success. Dwarves have several things going for them if you're looking to build a sorcerer around melee, especially Dragon Disciple type builds.

2. Elves. Spell Penetration is not something to be dismissed lightly, as those spell resistant folks are out there. In addition to the perception and low light vision abilities, elves have one thing going for them that can aid immensely in survival chance of lower level sorcerers.

-Built in bow proficiency. Even for a sorcerer, 20 arrows are more available than 20 spells. If you make an Elven sorcerer, budget for a bow, nothing fancy, a short bow will give you more combat options at least for the first few levels. Having that Dex bonus not only makes this more useful, but it also means going that much sooner in the initative count.

I still don't see dwarves working, even as gishes. 20' movement and -2 cha for a +2 con. I'd rather build a human and put the +2 to Con, use the extra feat for EWP and get a free extra spell per level.

Elves Spell Penetration is nice, but humans get it at first level too. If they choose not to, it is because they have something better to spend their feat on.
A bow doesnt give you anything better than a crossbow imho. Not until you get 2 attacks. By then, you shouldnt be attacking imo.

Can you build dwarven and elven sorcerers? Yes, but they'll be worse than hunans halfelves and halforcs.

The major differances between the short bow and the light crossbow are in damage, range, relaod rate and crits. Start with range the crossbow has a 20' greater range incrament. The damage is 1d8 for the crossbow and 1d6 for the short bow. The crossbow is 5 gp more expensive then the short bow. The light crossbow takes a move action to reload, and the short bow does not. The short bow is a *3 crit and the light crossbow is a*2 crit with a threat range of 19-20.

This makes it a toss up in my mind in reguards to shotbow vs crossbow in use for a Soccerer.


Deadmanwalking wrote:

I think you're underrating AC in general, and the Dodge Feat specifically. It's not precisely great, but it's not actively awful either, I'd rate it a solid Orange.

I also think you should probably make the note that Elemental Bloodline (and the Elemental Body spells, specifically) are pretty good if your GM does let you cast in Elemental form. I mean, it's not like that's actually contradicting the rules, just interpreting them one of two possible ways...meaning that the guide shouldn't assume one way or the other.

i think AC is all or nothing. You go all in, or you skip it. Being hit with a 5 instead a 4 isn't worth a feat. Being hit with a 19 instead a 18, it is. So it is blue if you go AC, or not worth it otherwise. However, i agree with you: it is closer to Lightning Reflexes than to Power Attack. Orange might be ok.

In my group you cant cast in elemental form, but yes, it is a DM call. If your grouo allow it, it is much better. However, having the four of them in the list still hurts the bloodline. They are too similar.


gustavo iglesias wrote:
I still don't see dwarves working, even as gishes. 20' movement and -2 cha for a +2 con. I'd rather build a human and put the +2 to Con, use the extra feat for EWP and get a free extra spell per level.

As a basic sorcerer, I agree. However, as Beebs pointed, an Empyreal sorcerer uses Wisdom for her casting stat- now you're looking at a sorcerer with a boost to her casting stat, HP stat, and a penalty to her only dump stat. They've also got a series of defensive bonuses to help shore up the particularly squishy aspects of the sorcerer. Regardless of your thoughts on the celestial bloodline, Dwarf is a blue choice for Empyreal sorcerers.

gustavo iglesias wrote:
Elves Spell Penetration is nice, but humans get it at first level too. If they choose not to, it is because they have something better to spend their feat on. A bow doesnt give you anything better than a crossbow imho. Not until you get 2 attacks. By then, you shouldnt be attacking imo.

That's a little misguided. Elves should (almost) always pursue the Sage bloodline, which is great because the arcane bloodline is fantastic. Just a quick look at the two races shows us that they've got identical stats (+2 casting stat, and the +2/-2 dex/con evens out in point buy).

Humans get: Bonus feat, +1 skill point per level, and a very good option for favored class bonuses. Humans can trade away the skill point for some great bonuses vs. bleeding out/dying.

Elves get: Spell Penetration (Bonus feat), Low-Light vision, +2 vs. enchantments, +2 perception, and a few bonus weapon proficiencies (lame, I agree). They're a shoe-in for Arcane Archer, which is worth considering. Their favored class bonus is really good for certain bloodlines if you'd really like to capitalize on the 1st level ability. Claws come to mind, as does the Verdant trip.

I agree about longbows vs. crossbows, though. The differences are negligible for a class that should be focused on casting. Unless, of course, they plan to pursue Arcane Archer.

gustavo iglesias wrote:
Can you build dwarven and elven sorcerers? Yes, but they'll be worse than hunans halfelves and halforcs.

Not if you build to their strengths. That's the point of an optimization guide, isn't it?

gustavo iglesias wrote:
In my group you cant cast in elemental form, but yes, it is a DM call. If your grouo allow it, it is much better. However, having the four of them in the list still hurts the bloodline. They are too similar.

Keep in mind that even if your DM rules that you can't cast in elemental forms, all you need is Still Spell to succeed. You've already got Eschew Materials, and elementals are capable of speech.


Didn't realized empyreal or sage builds. Where are they from? Sure, if they go without Cha penalty, they are top choices. Will try to read about it and add them to the guide.


Very nice !

Perhaps worth adding that a dip into wizard would give you admixture, which is pure gold for a higher-level blaster.


I'm not very fond about losing CL with a Sorcerers. I already feel they lose one (because they have to wait to even levels to get higher spells), but you are right, the option is there, and might be worth considering. I'll add a section later about different multiclass/dip options, mostly for gishes and Dragon Disciples/arcane tricksters, will add the Wiz 1 (Evoker) option too.

Liberty's Edge

gustavo iglesias wrote:
Didn't realized empyreal or sage builds. Where are they from? Sure, if they go without Cha penalty, they are top choices. Will try to read about it and add them to the guide.

Like many other options they are found in Ultimate Magic under Wildblooded.

Indeed, many of the Bloodlines in UM, Wildblooded or not, seem quite good. The Genie Bloodlines are basically the Elemental Bloodline with better spells (much better in some cases), for example.

And the Sage and Empyreal Bloodlines, while they basically give up having a Bloodline Arcana, do make for good Elven, Dwarven, and, well, any other non-Charisma based Sorcerers you might want.


I've checked the faq's and i cannot find any reference to metamagic rods working that way. If you could provide a link when you get time that would be awesome, smartphones are indeed a pain for finding and linking.

If metamagic rods can indeed be used in such a way then they are a lot better than i thought, however as i mentioned i do not think my group will be happy with the ruling.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
And the Sage and Empyreal Bloodlines, while they basically give up having a Bloodline Arcana, do make for good Elven, Dwarven, and, well, any other non-Charisma based Sorcerers you might want.

It's worth noting that in ranking the value of a stat, Charisma is usually dead last. Charisma governs six skills, and that's it. Intelligence governs fourteen skills (ten of which are knowledges), but also adds to known languages and skill points. Wisdom governs five skills and also adds to your will save.

So it's not really trading your bloodline power for a different stat. It's trading your bloodline power for a significantly stronger will save or skill points to rival a bard.

Liberty's Edge

Sean FitzSimon wrote:

It's worth noting that in ranking the value of a stat, Charisma is usually dead last. Charisma governs six skills, and that's it. Intelligence governs fourteen skills (ten of which are knowledges), but also adds to known languages and skill points. Wisdom governs five skills and also adds to your will save.

So it's not really trading your bloodline power for a different stat. It's trading your bloodline power for a significantly stronger will save or skill points to rival a bard.

I honestly thought that went without saying. :)

It's also why I'd never personally use either of those Bloodlines when playing a Sorcerer (well, maybe if I really wanted to do a Dwarf Sorcerer). I like Charisma far too much to give up an excuse to have it high, despite it's manifold disadvantages.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

gustavo iglesias wrote:

I've seen a lot of threads asking for help with Sorcerers builds lately. There are very good Wizard guides in the forum, but the few Sorcerers' guides aren't complete (and they don't seem to be completed any time soon)

So I just made one.

Here you go:

Inner Power. A guide to Sorcerers

I would suggest you allow someone to edit your guide for grammar, as I've found four grammar mistakes in the first four paragraphs. Other than that, I like it so far.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
gustavo iglesias wrote:
LazarX wrote:

I'm going to deconstruct your section on races.

1. Dwarves. Yes they get a charisma penalty. There are a fair number of sorcerer builds that don't rely on saving throw DC's as the all or nothing of success. Dwarves have several things going for them if you're looking to build a sorcerer around melee, especially Dragon Disciple type builds.

2. Elves. Spell Penetration is not something to be dismissed lightly, as those spell resistant folks are out there. In addition to the perception and low light vision abilities, elves have one thing going for them that can aid immensely in survival chance of lower level sorcerers.

-Built in bow proficiency. Even for a sorcerer, 20 arrows are more available than 20 spells. If you make an Elven sorcerer, budget for a bow, nothing fancy, a short bow will give you more combat options at least for the first few levels. Having that Dex bonus not only makes this more useful, but it also means going that much sooner in the initative count.

I still don't see dwarves working, even as gishes. 20' movement and -2 cha for a +2 con. I'd rather build a human and put the +2 to Con, use the extra feat for EWP and get a free extra spell per level.

Elves Spell Penetration is nice, but humans get it at first level too. If they choose not to, it is because they have something better to spend their feat on.
A bow doesnt give you anything better than a crossbow imho. Not until you get 2 attacks. By then, you shouldnt be attacking imo.

Can you build dwarven and elven sorcerers? Yes, but they'll be worse than hunans halfelves and halforcs.

I don't think they're worse if they're built right as an organic package. One has to take a look at the total picture. For a woodland's based group the Elven sorcerer with his low-light vision, access to the Sylvan language, and the fey or sylvan bloodlines is a formidable combination. Much of these advantages will be campaign dependent, but that can be said about most builds of anything.

The biggest failure with guides in general is that people come looking them for pre-packaged cookie-cutter answers. They wind up leaving those guides without the motivation for asking meaningful, expansive questions.

The bow has one big advantage over the crossbow, especially for an elf whose using woodlands for cover. He doesn't have to sacrifice his movement to reload.


3 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
Egoish wrote:

I've checked the faq's and i cannot find any reference to metamagic rods working that way. If you could provide a link when you get time that would be awesome, smartphones are indeed a pain for finding and linking.

If metamagic rods can indeed be used in such a way then they are a lot better than i thought, however as i mentioned i do not think my group will be happy with the ruling.

I've re-checked, and I can't find a FAQ about it.

I find several Rules-questions that are related in this thread:

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/rules/metamagicRodsAndMetaedSpells

In the SRD, in feat section:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats

"Effects of Metamagic Feats on a Spell: In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast using a higher-level spell slot. Saving throw modifications are not changed unless stated otherwise in the feat description."
A Quickened magic missle cant pierce a Globe of invulnerability, for example.

In the SRD, in the Rod section:
"Lesser and Greater Metamagic Rods: Normal metamagic rods can be used with spells of 6th level or lower. Lesser rods can be used with spells of 3rd level or lower, while greater rods can be used with spells of 9th level or lower."
In all ways, a metamagic fireball is a 3rd level spell. A maximized Fireball can't pierce a Globe of Invulnerability, but it can be affected with any effect that affect a 3rd level spell. That means you can use a pearl of Power of 3rd level to recover a fireball (Although you won't get a maximized one) and you can use a lesser metamagic rod on it.

There are two different things: actual spell level, and effective spell level, which relates to the spell slot. Metamagic feats increase the effective spell level, which alters the slot you need to memorize/cast it. But the actual spell level does not change. You can't circunvent Globe of invulnerability with a maximized fireball. The metamagic rod, lesser, can be used on any spell that is actual level 3 or less.

However, I think we need a FAQ about it, to make it official and clear, I guess.


LazarX wrote:
gustavo iglesias wrote:
LazarX wrote:

I'm going to deconstruct your section on races.

1. Dwarves. Yes they get a charisma penalty. There are a fair number of sorcerer builds that don't rely on saving throw DC's as the all or nothing of success. Dwarves have several things going for them if you're looking to build a sorcerer around melee, especially Dragon Disciple type builds.

2. Elves. Spell Penetration is not something to be dismissed lightly, as those spell resistant folks are out there. In addition to the perception and low light vision abilities, elves have one thing going for them that can aid immensely in survival chance of lower level sorcerers.

-Built in bow proficiency. Even for a sorcerer, 20 arrows are more available than 20 spells. If you make an Elven sorcerer, budget for a bow, nothing fancy, a short bow will give you more combat options at least for the first few levels. Having that Dex bonus not only makes this more useful, but it also means going that much sooner in the initative count.

I still don't see dwarves working, even as gishes. 20' movement and -2 cha for a +2 con. I'd rather build a human and put the +2 to Con, use the extra feat for EWP and get a free extra spell per level.

Elves Spell Penetration is nice, but humans get it at first level too. If they choose not to, it is because they have something better to spend their feat on.
A bow doesnt give you anything better than a crossbow imho. Not until you get 2 attacks. By then, you shouldnt be attacking imo.

Can you build dwarven and elven sorcerers? Yes, but they'll be worse than hunans halfelves and halforcs.

I don't think they're worse if they're built right as an organic package. One has to take a look at the total picture. For a woodland's based group the Elven sorcerer with his low-light vision, access to the Sylvan language, and the fey or sylvan bloodlines is a formidable combination. Much of these advantages will be campaign dependent, but that can be said about most...

Being thematic is one thing, being worse is another. That woodland based group elven sorcerer will be thematic, but will be mathematically worse than, say, a gnome Fey Sorcerer or a Half-Elf fey sorcerer, which are thematic, and have +2 to Cha. Anyone can build a character that is thematically cool, that does not mean however that it is a good in-game choice. A dwarven sorcerer of Earth will be thematically cool, but will suck hardly. People who read guides, do so to learn optimal choices.

The longbow vs crossbow "adventage" comes into effect while:
a) you can't cast spells
b) you need to move and shoot in that turn and the next one (otherwise, you can shoot and move, next turn move-reload and shoot)

That's far too situational to be something that can offset the Human +2 to Cha and extra spell per level. Can you build an Elven sorcerer? Yes, but it will be worse than a Human Sorcerer. That's the entire point of coloring the guide, to know which options are better than others. Power Attack might be thematic and colorful in a Orc Bloodline, but it is worse than Toughness or Quickened Spell in 99% of characters. Hence Power attack is red, and Toughness is blue.


cartmanbeck wrote:
gustavo iglesias wrote:

I've seen a lot of threads asking for help with Sorcerers builds lately. There are very good Wizard guides in the forum, but the few Sorcerers' guides aren't complete (and they don't seem to be completed any time soon)

So I just made one.

Here you go:

Inner Power. A guide to Sorcerers

I would suggest you allow someone to edit your guide for grammar, as I've found four grammar mistakes in the first four paragraphs. Other than that, I like it so far.

As english is not my first language, I'd say that you will find much more grammar mistakes when you go beyond the fourth paragraph :P.

Once the guide is finished I might do so, however. Are you a volunteer? :)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

A masximised Fireball can't pierce a Globe of Invulnerability. A Fireball heightened to 5th level, will blow through it as if it wasn't there. Empowering and Intensifing it in addition, brings it up to an 8th level spell slot.

It is treated as a fifth level spell in all other ways, the Save DC goes up as well as the damage cap.


Yep, you are right. I should have made that explicit. Metamagic feats *other than heightened spell* do not increase the actual spell level. :)


I disagree slightly on the advice about the Profession skill.

I've always found it nice for a small but steady income and really nice when the GM seems intent on not giving the group any rewards for the challenges they face (I'm on one right now and we've gone maybe 4 sessions without receiving anything even remotely resembling income).


Your quotes are good, i think my original point about the spirit of the rules still stands.

A faq on the sbject would be handy but our group will continue to disallow a lesser rod to be used on an already metamagic'd spell if the metamagic brings the spell level above 3rd. I'd be surprised if many gms allowed it though if i'm honest.

The Exchange

Hey gustavo, mind if I host this on d20pfsrd.com?


I'll be more than happy :)


Egoish wrote:

Your quotes are good, i think my original point about the spirit of the rules still stands.

A faq on the sbject would be handy but our group will continue to disallow a lesser rod to be used on an already metamagic'd spell if the metamagic brings the spell level above 3rd. I'd be surprised if many gms allowed it though if i'm honest.

As far as those same GM allow an empowered Fireball to pierce through Globe of Invulnerability, it might be fair. However, treating it as 3rd level spell to things that hurt players, but 5th level to things that help players isn't fair.

Liberty's Edge

Its a good guide. I like it. Well done.


Where is the verdant bloodline from the advanced players guide?

The Exchange

In the immortal words of Emeril Lagasse, BAM!

Here you go.


doctor_wu wrote:
Where is the verdant bloodline from the advanced players guide?

The guide isn't finished yet. There are some bloodlines not yet covered, and wildblooded bloodlines need some atention too. Prestige classes and multiclass builds will be there as well.


Thanks for the great guide! :)

A question about Craft Wondrous Item,

I'm not an expert of sorcerer but it seem to me that they need every single feat they can get, and considering that:

-not all campaign will let you have that time for crafting items (and the more high lvl you are the more time you need for your items)

-you also "have" to craft rods

-the chance you know a specific spell for a magic item are slim and int is not your major stat so it would be hard for you to craft

Why sky blue?


eleclipse wrote:

Thanks for the great guide! :)

A question about Craft Wondrous Item,

I'm not an expert of sorcerer but it seem to me that they need every single feat they can get, and considering that:

-not all campaign will let you have that time for crafting items (and the more high lvl you are the more time you need for your items)

-you also "have" to craft rods

-the chance you know a specific spell for a magic item are slim and int is not your major stat so it would be hard for you to craft

Why sky blue?

Your concerns, answered one by one.

-Crafting in Pathfinder is quite generous. You can craft even when adventuring (although at a lower pace). Unless your campaign is a race against time, you will be able to craft.

- Crafting rods is less needed, depending on your campaign. If you can buy them in the shop, you might go with only 1 or 2 maximize rods and let it be. However, having the feat allow for cheaper rods and access to Quicknened -which is too expensive otherwise-

- You don't need to know a spell to build a magic item. You can ignore any spell rolling with a +5 to DC. Int is not your higher stat, but it's not a dump stat either. I'd have 12 or 14 in most my sorcerers, which isn't bad. Also, take in account that you CAN take 10 while crafting magic items. Another cool trick is building a custom magic item with +5 to spellcraft (similar to Elven Cloaks, Goggles of minute seeing and the like). The cost to make it is 1250 gold. At level 11, I think I have +20 or so to spellcraft in my current KingMaker Sorcerer. Even without the custom item (That shouldn't be that hard to make unless your DM commpletelly forbids the part of the rules about creating magic items), you can have a decent bonus. Take ten, and you can build almost anything. A Belt of Dexterity and Con, for example, is DC 23 even if you don't have any of the two spells. That's +13 in Spellcraft needed, or 9 ranks with INT 12.

So you can use the feat really well. For most items, you can craft them as easily as any Wizard. You can craft them even if you are adventuring. And it almost doubles your wealth by level. It's sky blue, becouse I don't have a clearer blue color :P


Quite convincing! :)

I Knew that you dind't need to know the spell but a +5 to a craft (even a +10 in multi-enchant items) seemed quite hight in my mind, i did not tought at the item! Also i din't take in account that you can take 10.


gustavo iglesias wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:

I think you're underrating AC in general, and the Dodge Feat specifically. It's not precisely great, but it's not actively awful either, I'd rate it a solid Orange.

i think AC is all or nothing. You go all in, or you skip it. Being hit with a 5 instead a 4 isn't worth a feat. Being hit with a 19 instead a 18, it is. So it is blue if you go AC, or not worth it otherwise. However, i agree with you: it is closer to Lightning Reflexes than to Power Attack. Orange might be ok.

Mathematically, there is no difference between those two situations (or a very slight one pertaining to critical threats). Either way you're getting hit 5% less. Toughness being sky blue and dodge being red doesn't make any sense to me.

Too many ratings in your guide reflect personal opinion (which is fine) with no explanation (which isn't, for a guide). Tark touched on that earlier. Also some things are inconsistent where you say something is decent and give it a blue rating, etc. Silent spell as a feat has a red rating on one bloodline and an orange on another.

You assume a lot about having a ton of metamagic feats and rods. Also, for instance, in your rating for moment of prescience, you state "you can spam it all day." It's a lot to assume that any character has enough 8th level spell slots to spam something all day, especially when you're metamagicking all your blasts up to higher levels. Your metamagic strategies also don't take in to account save dc's, which might well chop all your damage #'s in half.

As was previously noted, the grammar and spelling issues are distracting. I understand English is not your first language, but perhaps you could run the document through a grammar or spellchecker at the least before making it public?

I don't want to minimize the work you've done here, it's a big undertaking, but the most valuable part of what you've done in my eyes is your section on metamagic strategy for blasting and spontaneous caster strategy vs. prepared caster strategy. Otherwise it needs work.


MyTThor wrote:
gustavo iglesias wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:

I think you're underrating AC in general, and the Dodge Feat specifically. It's not precisely great, but it's not actively awful either, I'd rate it a solid Orange.

i think AC is all or nothing. You go all in, or you skip it. Being hit with a 5 instead a 4 isn't worth a feat. Being hit with a 19 instead a 18, it is. So it is blue if you go AC, or not worth it otherwise. However, i agree with you: it is closer to Lightning Reflexes than to Power Attack. Orange might be ok.

Mathematically, there is no difference between those two situations (or a very slight one pertaining to critical threats). Either way you're getting hit 5% less. Toughness being sky blue and dodge being red doesn't make any sense to me.

You are wrong, and that's a common mistake.

Let's suppose you are facing a foe that does 5 damage per hit. In the course of 20 attacks, if you are hit with 5+, you take 80 damage. With the feat, you take 75 damage. That's 6,25% less damage taken. On the other hand, let's suppose you are hit with 18+. On the course of 20 attacks, you take 15 damage. With the feat, you take 10 damage. That's 33% less damage taken. 33% is much more than 6,25%.

You can see it as survival rating too. Imagine your character has 100 hp. You will survive about 20 attacks of 5 damage each if you are hit with 2+, dying on 21st. If you take dodge, you will die on the 22ns on average. The feat gives you, roughly, a 5% survival rating increase. Now imagine you are hit with 19+, taking 5 damage per attack. With 100 hp, you will die, on average, in the ~200th attack. If you take dodge, you will be hit with 20+. That means you will fall on the ~400th attacks. When you are hit with 2+ dodge gives you around 5% extra effective hit points. If you are hit with 19+, dodge double your effective hit points.

Toughness is sky blue becouse there are a lot of things that do damage and bypass armor. Breath weapons, Spells, attacks that get you flatfooted or touch attacks will, often hit you 2+ with, or without dodge. Hit points are always there. You can always have more, and they always help. There is not a single level 10 character that do not want 10 extra hit points. There are level 10 characters that do not want Maximize Spell. So Toughness is, imho, a higher rated feat.

Quote:
Too many ratings in your guide reflect personal opinion (which is fine) with no explanation (which isn't, for a guide). Tark touched on that earlier. Also some things are inconsistent where you say something is decent and give it a blue rating, etc. Silent spell as a feat has a red rating on one bloodline and an orange on another.

I'm extending some of the explanations. Will take some time though. Inconsistencies, like Still Spell being rated in different ways is, sometimes, a typo, and in other situations, becouse they have a different value for different Bloodlines. An example of that is Point Blank Shot/precise Shot. The value of this feat is not the same if you get them in a blaster bloodline with access to scorching burst, that if you get them in a bloodline with Bonus to DC in enchantment spells (like Fey). Will polish it later.

Quote:
You assume a lot about having a ton of metamagic feats and rods.

It's said so in the begining of the Guide. The guide has a focus on blasting sorcerers, even if it can be useful for other kinds of Sorcerers. The guide says blasting is completely useless unless you metamagic.

Quote:
Also, for instance, in your rating for moment of prescience, you state "you can spam it all day." It's a lot to assume that any character has enough 8th level spell slots to spam something all day, especially when you're metamagicking all your blasts up to higher levels. Your metamagic strategies also don't take in to account save dc's, which might well chop all your damage #'s in half.

With "spam all day long" I meant "there's not a situation were it is not useful". Of course you have a limited amount of spell slots. That's true with other spells, and you can't use "banishment" all day long, for example. You need something to banish. Moment of prescience is useful in exploration, in combat, roleplaying, against outsiders, dragons or humanoids.

I think the DC being lower is quoted in the guide. Will check it later.

Quote:
As was previously noted, the grammar and spelling issues are distracting. I understand English is not your first language, but perhaps you could run the document through a grammar or spellchecker at the least before making it public?

It went through Word 2010 built-in spellcheck. Grammar checkers aren't that good though.

Quote:
I don't want to minimize the work you've done here, it's a big undertaking, but the most valuable part of what you've done in my eyes is your section on metamagic strategy for blasting and spontaneous caster strategy...

It's the part that I think is more important too. I often see "blaster sucks" discussions in this forums, who are biased because the very good Treantmonk guide, and his personal opinions. Blasting sucks, when done bad. Blasting is a valid strategy, when done properly.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
MyTThor wrote:
gustavo iglesias wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:

I think you're underrating AC in general, and the Dodge Feat specifically. It's not precisely great, but it's not actively awful either, I'd rate it a solid Orange.

i think AC is all or nothing. You go all in, or you skip it. Being hit with a 5 instead a 4 isn't worth a feat. Being hit with a 19 instead a 18, it is. So it is blue if you go AC, or not worth it otherwise. However, i agree with you: it is closer to Lightning Reflexes than to Power Attack. Orange might be ok.

Mathematically, there is no difference between those two situations (or a very slight one pertaining to critical threats). Either way you're getting hit 5% less. Toughness being sky blue and dodge being red doesn't make any sense to me.

There is a 5 percent difference on the chance to be hit, but not all things are equal.

For example changing from being hit 17 times out of 20 to 16 times out of 20 means you will get missed 1/17th of the time you would normally get hit. You in effect save yoruself 1/17th of the damage you would have taken.

Changing getting hit 3 times out of 20 to 2 times out of 20 means you get missed 1/3rd of the times you would have been hit. You in effect save yourself from 1/3rd if the damage you would have taken. More if you figure in crits and confirmation.


d20pfsrd.com wrote:

In the immortal words of Emeril Lagasse, BAM!

Here you go.

Aw man, color me jealous. I've had a guide out for a couple months now and never got an invite to d20pfsrd. :)

1 to 50 of 136 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>
Paizo / Messageboards / Paizo / Pathfinder® / Pathfinder RPG / Advice / The Complete Sorcerer Guide. All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.

©2002-2017 Paizo Inc.® | Privacy Policy | Contact Us
Need help? Email customer.service@paizo.com or call 425-250-0800 during our business hours, Monday through Friday, 10:00 AM to 5:00 PM Pacific time.

Paizo Inc., Paizo, the Paizo golem logo, Pathfinder, the Pathfinder logo, Pathfinder Society, Starfinder, the Starfinder logo, GameMastery, and Planet Stories are registered trademarks of Paizo Inc. The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Pathfinder Adventure Path, Pathfinder Adventure Card Game, Pathfinder Player Companion, Pathfinder Modules, Pathfinder Tales, Pathfinder Battles, Pathfinder Legends, Pathfinder Online, Starfinder Adventure Path, PaizoCon, RPG Superstar, The Golem's Got It, Titanic Games, the Titanic logo, and the Planet Stories planet logo are trademarks of Paizo Inc. Dungeons & Dragons, Dragon, Dungeon, and Polyhedron are registered trademarks of Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc., and have been used by Paizo Inc. under license. Most product names are trademarks owned or used under license by the companies that publish those products; use of such names without mention of trademark status should not be construed as a challenge to such status.