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I'm interested in making a sorcerer with the marid bloodline, using the Rime Spell metamagic feat that I only just discovered because of your guide. She would also be focusing on fireball, but with the option to make it a cold fireball when needed (and once she picks up Rime Spell it will be the norm). Because I believe all spellcasters are better with a familiar, I'm going with the Tattooed archetype.
I should mention that this would be for PFS if it were made.
** spoiler omitted **
Any thoughts?
I was looking at something similar recently, and you might want to consider the Elemental Bloodline (water) instead of Marid for this type of build. The bloodline arcana and powers are nearly identical, but the Elemental Bloodline gets blasting bonus spells early, which may be better with the Rime Spell theme you're going for.
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I'm interested in making a sorcerer with the marid bloodline, using the Rime Spell metamagic feat that I only just discovered because of your guide. She would also be focusing on fireball, but with the option to make it a cold fireball when needed (and once she picks up Rime Spell it will be the norm). Because I believe all spellcasters are better with a familiar, I'm going with the Tattooed archetype.
I should mention that this would be for PFS if it were made.
** spoiler omitted **
Any thoughts?
I was looking at something similar recently, and you might want to consider the Elemental Bloodline (water) instead of Marid for this type of build. The bloodline arcana and powers are nearly identical, but the Elemental Bloodline gets blasting bonus spells early, which may be better with the Rime Spell theme you're going for.
I was actually considering those bonus spells a downside. If I go with marid and take them as normal spells known, they're in their normal element and I can switch them to cold with my bloodline arcana, so it's like I know two different spells. If I go with the elemental bloodline I only learn a cold version of those spells, which means I'm scuppered against cold immune foes.
I agree with mergy, Marid gives slightly better flexibility.
A few things going on:
I think dweomer retaliation effect is too low for a 4th level spell, even as a inmediate action. It's quite nicely suit for a counterspell themed character, though. I think Wizard Abjurers are better counterspellers, however.
A ray specialist is not only a blaster. There are several interesting debuffing rays: Ray of Exhaustion, Ray of Enfeeblement, Enervation...
For damage, Scorching ray cover most of your needs.
You can cast Scorching ray as a 2nd level spell
You can cast empowered Scorching ray with magical lineage as 3rd level spell.
Magical lineage maximized scorching ray is a 4th level spell
Magical lineage maximized intensified spell is 5th level spell.
At 6th , you can get Contagious flame, or maximized-empowered scorching ray.
So you can get scorching ray, take metamagic, and free your other spell slots for something different, while keeping your damage up to line.
Piercing spell is better for sorcerers, imho, but it's not a clear victory. Spell penetration has its adventages too. For example, you are able to cast your highest level spells, which is not something to laugh at.
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But if you went Elemental instead of Marid, would the spells you take as known be the same ones you get as bonus spells from Marid? If you go Marid, you have to take Scorching Ray and Burning Hands as spells known if you want them, because you don't get them as bonus spells.
I guess I can see both ways. I think if I ever do this sorcerer character, I'd need to plan out my spells in advance to decide which I'd prefer.
It is now here.
Dude, you are awesome. Most DM's will only allow stuff they don't own if it's on PFSRD.
Thanks.
It's nice but i think that Scorching Ray is better, this give a reflex save and the damage output is significant only for the first target.
Yeah great spell but the really good damage only effects a single target. Intensify would let you effect 4 targets.
The guide is pretty sweet. But the rest of the bloodlines need to be added.
For my save or Daze build I'm strongly considering swapping the Arcane bloodline for the Shaitan bloodline which (along with Marid and a few others) is not reviewed.
Points for
1. Being able to switch your energy spells, in my case Burning Arc, Fireball, Dragon's Breath and Chain lighting to acid when you want is powerful. Acid is the least commonly resisted element.
2. The bullrush power on single target damage spells is nice and works well with Burning Arc (when you choose to have it effect 1 target)
3. The bonus feats are nice. Particularly Empower Spell, Improved Initiative. Knowledge (Planes) can set you up for Eldritch Heritage (arcane bloodline) if you want it.
Now the acid ray sucks but I' d just take the Tattooed Sorcerer Archtype to get a familiar Instead.
Burning arc is nice, but cover a different role imho.
Scorching Ray is excellent when you try to avoid creatures with high saving throws. For example, a dragon with high HD have a respectable REF, but his touch attack is autohit.
Burning arc has the adventage of nor requiring you to take precise shot. Both are good spells.
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I can see your point on Burning Arc vs Scorching Ray, but I think it depends on your build. Burning Arc gets a save to reduce the damage, but Scorching Ray can miss altogether if you roll badly on the touch attack. Of course, Scorching Ray can also crit on a 20, which is nice.
When combined with Marid or Water Elemental Bloodline, and Rime Spell, then Burning Arc is clearly superior. Rime Spell entangles everyone who takes damage from the spell, with no save or anything, even if it's just 1 HP of damage. The entangle is what counts - the damage is just gravy. If I were doing this build for Pathfinder Society, I'd probably go Marid bloodline with Magical Lineage (Burning Arc), and Rime Spell at level 3, even though I wouldn't be able to use it until 4.
I'd say this is better for the Magical Lineage than Rime on a frozen Fireball because you can pick and choose targets, rather than entangling your allies. It's also a level 2 spell, so you can cast it earlier and more often. The entangle only lasts 2 rounds instead of 3, the range is shorter, and you won't hit as many enemies, but it's a more precise control than with Fireball.
Of course, this is all assuming it's for Pathfinder Society, which is low level eventually getting to mid-level, so you want to be able to start pulling off the Rime trick at level 4, rather than waiting for level 6. For a campaign that will start and end at higher levels, specializing in frozen Fireball over Burning Arc for your Magical Lineage and Rime Spell might be better, though it's still worth weighing the pros and cons.
Not bad...
I just skimmed it, but.... No specific mention of tactically minded Sorcerers utilizing creative uses of Walls and Pits, among various other 'tactical' spells?
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Am I reading the intensify spell feat wrong?
I am reading it as only affecting spells that have already hit their max damage dice. Do you get +5 levels of dice no matter what?
Basically, I read it as casting a fireball at 10th level would do 10d6 and intensify has no effect, and casting a fireball at 11th level up with intensify would make it do 15d6 points of damage.
d20pfsrd gives us the following description:
Intensified Spell (Metamagic)
Your spells can go beyond several normal limitations.
Benefit: An intensified spell increases the maximum number of damage dice by 5 levels. You must actually have sufficient caster levels to surpass the maximum in order to benefit from this feat. No other variables of the spell are affected, and spells that inflict damage that is not modified by caster level are not affected by this feat.
Level Increase: +1 (an intensified spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell’s actual level.)
The damage cap is increased by 5 levels, but you *must* have sufficient levels for the cap
If your level 11 wizard casts intensified fireball, you'd deal 11d6 damage, increasing by 1d6 until level 15.
An Intensified fireball at level 16 would still hit for 15d6.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Am I reading the intensify spell feat wrong?
I am reading it as only affecting spells that have already hit their max damage dice. Do you get +5 levels of dice no matter what?
Basically, I read it as casting a fireball at 10th level would do 10d6 and intensify has no effect, and casting a fireball at 11th level up with intensify would make it do 15d6 points of damage.
You are mostly correct. At 11th level it would do 11d6, 12d6 at 12th, etc., up to 15d6 at 15th and up.
Intensify only affects spells that have already hit their damage cap, by extending that damage cap by five dice. It does not affect spells that inflict fixed amounts of damage, nor level-based variables of damage that are not dice (e.g., wall of fire that deals a fixed number of dice, plus a bonus based on level), nor spells that do not inflict damage, nor spells that give you extra iterations of damage based on level when each iteration of damage is fixed, such the fixed-damage missiles you get with magic missile and scorching ray.
TL;DR - The *ONLY* level-dependent variable affected by Intensified Spell is level-based damage dice, and it is only affected by increasing the maximum dice by 5.
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Here is a simple question. I am putting together a dragon blooded sorcerer for an AP. I will max out some where between 13-15th level. Is dragon disciple a better choice because of the limited levels over straight dragon blooded. Will Red scale of seas be king of the pirates. Or will crossblooded dragon/elemental/ dragon disciple better?
Am I reading the intensify spell feat wrong?
I am reading it as only affecting spells that have already hit their max damage dice. Do you get +5 levels of dice no matter what?
Basically, I read it as casting a fireball at 10th level would do 10d6 and intensify has no effect, and casting a fireball at 11th level up with intensify would make it do 15d6 points of damage.
You are mostly correct. At 11th level it would do 11d6, 12d6 at 12th, etc., up to 15d6 at 15th and up.
Intensify only affects spells that have already hit their damage cap, by extending that damage cap by five dice. It does not affect spells that inflict fixed amounts of damage, nor level-based variables of damage that are not dice (e.g., wall of fire that deals a fixed number of dice, plus a bonus based on level), nor spells that do not inflict damage, nor spells that give you extra iterations of damage based on level when each iteration of damage is fixed, such the fixed-damage missiles you get with magic missile and scorching ray.
TL;DR - The *ONLY* level-dependent variable affected by Intensified Spell is level-based damage dice, and it is only affected by increasing the maximum dice by 5.
Pardon my asking this silly question, but you can cast an Empowered Intensified Fireball (or any other damage-dealing spell), right?
And if you did so as a 15th-level sorceror, you'd roll 22d6 damage? As in, base normal max of 10d6 plus 5d6 from Intensify for 15d6, plus another 7d6 from Empower?
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I agree with mergy, Marid gives slightly better flexibility.
A few things going on:
I think dweomer retaliation effect is too low for a 4th level spell, even as a inmediate action. It's quite nicely suit for a counterspell themed character, though. I think Wizard Abjurers are better counterspellers, however.
A ray specialist is not only a blaster. There are several interesting debuffing rays: Ray of Exhaustion, Ray of Enfeeblement, Enervation...
For damage, Scorching ray cover most of your needs.
You can cast Scorching ray as a 2nd level spell
You can cast empowered Scorching ray with magical lineage as 3rd level spell.
Magical lineage maximized scorching ray is a 4th level spell
Magical lineage maximized intensified spell is 5th level spell.
At 6th , you can get Contagious flame, or maximized-empowered scorching ray.
So you can get scorching ray, take metamagic, and free your other spell slots for something different, while keeping your damage up to line.
Piercing spell is better for sorcerers, imho, but it's not a clear victory. Spell penetration has its adventages too. For example, you are able to cast your highest level spells, which is not something to laugh at.
Intensified doesn't do anything for a scorching ray.
Edit: Ninja'd.
I'm making my first pathfinder character and your guide was a big help. Thank you. I did want to mention, and I know you can't cater your guide to every vision problem that exists in the world, but a lot of people have issues with color and it is absolutely impossible for me to discern between blue and sky blue.
Anyway, thanks for helping me make my first PC!
Am I reading the intensify spell feat wrong?
I am reading it as only affecting spells that have already hit their max damage dice. Do you get +5 levels of dice no matter what?
Basically, I read it as casting a fireball at 10th level would do 10d6 and intensify has no effect, and casting a fireball at 11th level up with intensify would make it do 15d6 points of damage.
You are mostly correct. At 11th level it would do 11d6, 12d6 at 12th, etc., up to 15d6 at 15th and up.
Intensify only affects spells that have already hit their damage cap, by extending that damage cap by five dice. It does not affect spells that inflict fixed amounts of damage, nor level-based variables of damage that are not dice (e.g., wall of fire that deals a fixed number of dice, plus a bonus based on level), nor spells that do not inflict damage, nor spells that give you extra iterations of damage based on level when each iteration of damage is fixed, such the fixed-damage missiles you get with magic missile and scorching ray.
TL;DR - The *ONLY* level-dependent variable affected by Intensified Spell is level-based damage dice, and it is only affected by increasing the maximum dice by 5.
Pardon my asking this silly question, but you can cast an Empowered Intensified Fireball (or any other damage-dealing spell), right?
And if you did so as a 15th-level sorceror, you'd roll 22d6 damage? As in, base normal max of 10d6 plus 5d6 from Intensify for 15d6, plus another 7d6 from Empower?
You can.
At 15th you have 7 th level spells.Fireball (3rd)
Intensified (+1)
Empowered (+1 w/Magical Lineage)
Only takes a 5th level slot but with a save DC.for a 3rd level spell. (If you went arcane bloodline then school power went on evocation to bump the DC)
At 16th level you could cast a
Empowered, Intensified, Dazing Fireball using an 8th level slot. Doing 22d6(save DC bumped for school power) and if they fail their save they are dazed for 3 rounds.
It is now here.
Dang you!
Now I have to go back and rate that in my expanded Wizard guide right when I thought I was finished!
Should also note that Ball Lightning is a great spell to swap in at 14.
That's the first level you can make it Dazing.
With the arcane blooded build I posted earlier it's A 7th level slot to cast a 4th level spell (with +1 Spl fcs evo and +1 for bloodline metamagic) that does 4d6 per round and dazes for 4 rounds on a failed save AND the balls persist for rounds/level and.can be moved.as.a move.action while you cast other spells. Drop 4 dazing balls where you like within range and you won't hit.your fighters. A great backup spell vs fire immune enemies.
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What do you all think of the Oni bloodline? Note that I asked about the class skill here on the forums and got an official Paizo response that it should be disguise, not intimidate, since all sorcerers get intimidate as a class skill.
The class skill, bloodline arcana, and 3rd level bloodline ability look like they'd be good for an espionage heavy campaign, but probably mediocre for most situations. Actually, the same could be said of the disguise skill in general.
The 1st level power is a touch attack, so worthless for a squishy in combat, though being non-lethal might make it interesting as an aid to intimidation based interrogation. The high level bloodline powers are an improvement over the lower level ones, but still not great. And I'm not overly thrilled with the bonus feats, since most sorcerers aren't going to wait until level 7 to pick up Improved Initiative.
But the bonus spells are among the best of any bloodline. Invisibility, Fly, Charm Monster, Cone of Cold, and Greater Dispel Magic are all spells that would be useful for just about any build.
I already built a pure controller sorcerer for Pathfinder Society (see my thread about my sorcerer who does no damage), but I was thinking of doing a more balanced build, too, just to see how it would look. Something that wasn't purely control or pure blasting (which is a third possible build I might put together at some point). And this Oni bloodline looks like an interesting possibility for a balanced build, though there are other good possibilities, as well.
Is verdant there yet? >.>
Will it ever be finished?
Will it ever be finished?
I've left it in the dust fir a lot of time, but I'll try to finish it when Ican. I've been a bit busy IRL lately :)
I take issue with some of the things you said for races, and stats or simply didn't think through that are applicable for a lot of campaigns, especially since most given campaigns don't go that far beyond level 10 or so.
Dwarves A solid choice for the draconic bloodlines, especially if they are focusing on melee. They'll use a lot of spells which aren't dependent on saving throw DCs so the charisma penalty isn't as automatic fail as one would seem.
Elves. Don't knock the Spell Penetration bonus, especially since it can be enhanced with favored class options. Also it's worth keeping in mind that this is the only race that can use longbows without any feat expenditure, at low to mid levels that is a significant ranged advantage as the longbow will have a greater range than almost any spell you can throw for a fair amount of levels.
Strength. Excessively dumping strength can help ensure that your first encounter with Shadows may be your last encounter period.
Charisma. If you're going for a melee self-buffer, or are not investing heavily in spells with stat dependent save DC's, 16 or even 14 is a perfectly serviceable starting score.
YoU already mrntioned the dwarves and elves issue. I think you are right, partially. Elves are sky blue for Sage bloodline and dwarves are for empyreal. Dwarven penalty to charisma is quite harsh, though. Even if you never go with DC spells, you'll have fewer spell bonuses too. I'm not sure if dwarven bonuses are worth it, dpecially without a str bonus. I plan to upgrade the guide with more melee stuff, I'll think about it.
Dumping str might mean death vs shadows just like dumping wis could be vs wis draing lamias. It's a risk to dump anything, but str is quite safe dump.
About bows, it's a very small benefit for a non specialist compared to a crossbow. You wont shot more than once anyways, the range difference is very circumstantial and in any case, you'll miss a LOT and won't do too much damage. Compared to the favored class bonus from humans, I don't think it's too relevant. Maybe note it in a sidenote, but I don't think it's worth a color change
