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Backup for Karzoug


Rise of the Runelords


I know there's been a million of these threads already, but what kind of creatures do you think would be a good addition to the Karzoug fight? I'm just a bit worried because he is a single creature, level 20 wizard or not.

I think a good addition would be an Animate Horde from book 6 of Council of Thieves. Increase their CR by making them huge and elite and I think they'd do great.

Other ideas? Or is the Runelord of Greed a big enough challenge as is?


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OmegaZ wrote:

I know there's been a million of these threads already, but what kind of creatures do you think would be a good addition to the Karzoug fight? I'm just a bit worried because he is a single creature, level 20 wizard or not.

I think a good addition would be an Animate Horde from book 6 of Council of Thieves. Increase their CR by making them huge and elite and I think they'd do great.

Other ideas? Or is the Runelord of Greed a big enough challenge as is?

Our DM had Ceoptra and his apprentice retreat to the well to reinforce him before we got there.


@Caius: That's not a bad idea, I like having shapeshifters there so any Tyrannical weapons from the Runewell can be put to good use. Having those two heavy hitters in there might make it too hard a fight though. On the other hand, that's kind of the the point for the lost boss fight. How'd you guys do against Karzoug and his minions?


OmegaZ wrote:
@Caius: That's not a bad idea, I like having shapeshifters there so any Tyrannical weapons from the Runewell can be put to good use. Having those two heavy hitters in there might make it too hard a fight though. On the other hand, that's kind of the the point for the lost boss fight. How'd you guys do against Karzoug and his minions?

not sure how he adjusted, we tend to play with 7 pcs + companions/cohorts at fairly high stats so he doesn't have any issue throwing stuff like this at us so it may not be fully applicable. We fought a lot more mooks than I imagine is normal so we were also fairly low on spells for our dedicated casters.

Their main ability was to draw attacks away from karzoug and give him time for major spells & buffs. He also used wish several times to true res them which while not strictly RAW (cast time should have made it impossible) did keep them as an active threat even when going all out. The big issue is prismatic sphere because we were only able to get that out of the way due to stars aligning in regards to spells left and SLAs for some pcs. Depending on size that will also give him a lot of breathing room. Also should note we had an odd little helper in the form of a bound shadow that caused them to roll twice take lowest on everything. Could have altered it greatly but our DM rolls openly and routinely goes above 15 so it buffered some but not too heavily. In the end we came out on top (and still need to relocate that gaudy throne)

If you think it may be overwhelming, I'd say one or the other (whichever you think has more synergy). Too many enemies I think would feel overwhelming while you don't want to make action economy and initiative winning the end all be all of the fight. If you think two will be too few maybe a couple giants but I think he and his lieutenants should manage fine.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Rumor has it that the hardcover edition is going to have a blue dragon assisting him.


Our five PCs were 14th level when we confronted Karzoug near the beginning of the module. We'd used magic to circumvent the Pinnacle's defenders and buffed ourselves to the nines before breaching the Eye of Avarice to catch the Runelord by surprise. I don't know what parts of the encounter, if any, our GM changed, but we found Karzoug floating above the runewell with a huge blue dragon and his apprentice nearby. We swiftly downed Special-K during the surprise round; his defences having been stripped away with an antimagic field spell cast by my mystic theurge and then subjected to a ranged sneak attack by our rogue, another arrow from our ranger and a finishing vital strike by our monk. The apprentice was slain during the first full round of combat with the same antimagic field tactic while the dragon managed to survive long enough to try breathing on three party members (with no effect) before being slain in turn.

Make of that what you will. I'm not certain what backup might help any high-level wizard if he's surprised or looses initiative.

Sovereign Court

Spoiler:
Isn't he depicted with a BLUE DRAGON coiled around him ?


Ambrus wrote:

Our five PCs were 14th level when we confronted Karzoug near the beginning of the module. We'd used magic to circumvent the Pinnacle's defenders and buffed ourselves to the nines before breaching the Eye of Avarice to catch the Runelord by surprise. I don't know what parts of the encounter, if any, our GM changed, but we found Karzoug floating above the runewell with a huge blue dragon and his apprentice nearby. We swiftly downed Special-K during the surprise round; his defences having been stripped away with an antimagic field spell cast by my mystic theurge and then subjected to a ranged sneak attack by our rogue, another arrow from our ranger and a finishing vital strike by our monk. The apprentice was slain during the first full round of combat with the same antimagic field tactic while the dragon managed to survive long enough to try breathing on three party members (with no effect) before being slain in turn.

Make of that what you will. I'm not certain what backup might help any high-level wizard if he's surprised or looses initiative.

Wait, how did you get to Karzoug at the beginning of the module? That should be impossible as its written.


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OmegaZ wrote:
Wait, how did you get to Karzoug at the beginning of the module? That should be impossible as its written.

I can't speak to how the module is written; only how our group approached it.

Spoiler:
In brief, my character set out to reconnoiter Xin-Shalast following the events at Jorgenfist; liberally using speak with dead on Mokmurian and Lucretia's preserved remains to uncover the path into and means to enter the Plateau of Leng. A flyover of the city and up the slopes of Mhar Massif led my character into the occlusion field. A few saving throws and some successful knowledge checks led me to determine that it was a crippling planar effect of Leng. Unable to continue, my character turned back.

Following the events of Runeforge, we had a few scrolls of mass planar adaptation and plane shift commissioned for our party's incursion into Leng. A casting of the latter whisked us into the Plateau of Leng while the former allowed us to safely endure the cold, thin air and mind-bending nature of the plane. So inured, we flew up the slope of the mountain, into the occlusion field and up the Pinnacle of Avarice. My character discretely reconnoitered the Pinnacle's interior by traveling unseen inside the walls via elemental form I (earth) while invisible and using a gem of seeing and carrying the rest of the party inside the group's portable hole. A full survey of the tower's only habitable floor revealed its denizens and the Runelord's seeming absence. A little study and a few successful Knowledge checks hinted that the crystal lens being held by a statue of Karzoug was some sort of portal to an extradimensional space which could likely be breached by the Runeforged weapons we carried.

So our party took refuge in an unoccupied room, talked it over and opted to try triggering the portal; figuring that Karzoug might be somewhere on the other side. So we buffed ourselves, made our way back to the statue by the above means, triggered the crystal lens, tumbled into the Eye of Avarice and confronted Karzoug. We gained surprised on him and then won initiative. His death was the first of the module.

Throughout RotRL, our group has endeavored to seek out and attack the BBEGs first (as much as possible) and then work our way down the ranks in reverse order. It's proven a damnably effective tactic. You can check out our game log if you'd care to read all the details.


Ambrus wrote:
OmegaZ wrote:
Wait, how did you get to Karzoug at the beginning of the module? That should be impossible as its written.

I can't speak to how the module is written; only how our group approached it.

** spoiler omitted **...

That... is absolutely fantastic. I'm glad you guys enjoyed it, sounds like very well-made plan. Personally I like the idea of going the long route (if nothing else, I'd rather be the right level when fighting the Claimer), but this is a good plan.


OmegaZ wrote:
That... is absolutely fantastic. I'm glad you guys enjoyed it, sounds like very well-made plan. Personally I like the idea of going the long route

I'm not really sure what the long route is honestly. This was the approach that seemed to make the most sense to me from a tactical standpoint. Slogging through countless battles in the Xin-Shalast and up the slopes of Mhar Massif to then grind away through all of the Pinnacle's many defenders while simultaneously broadcasting our party's approach to Karzoug and using up all our resources only to confront him when we're at less than our best while he's buffed up and waiting for us seemed sort of... unwise.

OmegaZ wrote:
if nothing else, I'd rather be the right level when fighting the Claimer

Again, I'm not certain what level is "right" to confront Karzoug. 14th level provided us with all we needed to eliminate him with no trouble.

OmegaZ wrote:
but this is a good plan.

I'm of two minds about it. Although I greatly enjoyed the opportunity to try this tactic successfully throughout the AP, it does seem to run contrary to the intentions of the modules' designers; sometimes with odd results. It also tends to eliminate much of the challenge involved, with victory being largely certain in every situation. I don't believe I'd attempt to repeat it in future APs; opting instead for a more traditionally linear approach to game play even if it is less clever. Still, I'm grateful that I got to play with a group and a GM willing to go along with this somewhat unorthodox approach to adventuring at least once in my gaming career if only for the experience. It was enlightening.


Ambrus wrote:

Our five PCs were 14th level when we confronted Karzoug near the beginning of the module. We'd used magic to circumvent the Pinnacle's defenders and buffed ourselves to the nines before breaching the Eye of Avarice to catch the Runelord by surprise. I don't know what parts of the encounter, if any, our GM changed, but we found Karzoug floating above the runewell with a huge blue dragon and his apprentice nearby. We swiftly downed Special-K during the surprise round; his defences having been stripped away with an antimagic field spell cast by my mystic theurge and then subjected to a ranged sneak attack by our rogue, another arrow from our ranger and a finishing vital strike by our monk. The apprentice was slain during the first full round of combat with the same antimagic field tactic while the dragon managed to survive long enough to try breathing on three party members (with no effect) before being slain in turn.

Make of that what you will. I'm not certain what backup might help any high-level wizard if he's surprised or looses initiative.

How did you fly up within 10' of Karzoug with an Antimagic Field on ?


Erich Stahler wrote:
How did you fly up within 10' of Karzoug with an Antimagic Field on ?

My character's air elemental familiar was carrying him at the time. I cast the spell on my action and she moved on hers. We were limited to single actions due to it being a surprise round.


Ambrus wrote:
Erich Stahler wrote:
How did you fly up within 10' of Karzoug with an Antimagic Field on ?
My character's air elemental familiar was carrying him at the time. I cast the spell on my action and she moved on hers. We were limited to single actions due to it being a surprise round.

Sorry to be this insisting (got the Big K as a DM shortly ahead of me), so this isn't meant as nitpicking or criticism:

1. How did you convey that to the familar as both actions available aren't free actions (empathic link is Su for the familar, speak with master is Ex) ?

2. Isn't picking up a player and carrying him (heavy load/ assuming 70' then) 80' to the center and 45' up (~90ft. in total) a little too much for a standard action ?

3. Even if you make it to K he would immediatly fall (the exception of Fly and Antimagic field), did your GM account for that ?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Erich Stahler wrote:

Sorry to be this insisting (got the Big K as a DM shortly ahead of me), so this isn't meant as nitpicking or criticism:

1. How did you convey that to the familar as both actions available aren't free actions (empathic link is Su for the familar, speak with master is Ex) ?

2. Isn't picking up a player and carrying him (heavy load/ assuming 70' then) 80' to the center and 45' up (~90ft. in total) a little too much for a standard action ?

3. Even if you make it to K he would immediatly fall (the exception of Fly and Antimagic field), did your GM account for that ?

Who cares if they played it perfectly correct? They had fun, and that's all that matters.


Erich Stahler wrote:
Sorry to be this insisting

No problem.

Erich Stahler wrote:
1. How did you convey that to the familar as both actions available aren't free actions (empathic link is Su for the familar, speak with master is Ex) ?

Special means of communication weren't necessary seeing as how the familiar is quite intelligent and shares several languages with my character. Besides, she knew the plan and could easily recognized Special-K on sight and so knew to quickly move towards him once my spell was up and running.

Erich Stahler wrote:
2. Isn't picking up a player

No need to pick up my character; the familiar was already carrying him when the group triggered the portal to enter the Eye of Avarice. Not knowing if/where Karzoug might be on the other side of the portal, it was my plan to ensure that I could benefit from my familiar's superior flight speed should he be otherwise out of reach.

Erich Stahler wrote:
and carrying him (heavy load/ assuming 70' then) 80' to the center and 45' up (~90ft. in total) a little too much for a standard action ?

The distance (both horizontal and vertical) between us and Karzoug was well within the distance my familiar could cover in a move action. Trust me, I counted squares before declaring my action. ;)

Erich Stahler wrote:
3. Even if you make it to K he would immediatly fall (the exception of Fly and Antimagic field), did your GM account for that ?

The GM described the Runelord as floating only a few feet above the Runewell next to a big crystal thing when we first approached him. Although I expected/hoped he'd splash down violently, for some reason the GM said that he merely alighted harmlessly atop the Runewell's lip. Just as well really; our group's archers would have suffered a to hit penalty if he'd fallen prone. God forbid the rogue had missed him with her sneak attack.

My plan, had Special-K survived the surprise round, was to have my familiar ready an action to follow him should he attempt to flee (to keep him within the antimagic field) while my character would lob tanglefoot bags against the Runelord. I would have laughed uproariously if Karzoug had been caught by a lowly tanglefoot bag. =D


A few things I'd like to point out

Karzoug Would not fall because of Anti-magic field, as his fly ability is not a spell but an ability granted by his runewell amulet, which as an artifact, is immune to Anti-magic field.

The Karzoug they fought was obviously toned down if they killed him in two shots, a single sneak attack arrow and a regular arrow from a ranger.
I can't picture that coming up to nearly enough to kill him as he is written. Barring some crazy homebrew vorpal arrow of doom.

Though to each GM their own, I personally would feel that I just cheated the ending away from my group in what was otherwise a great campaign if I ended the game by nerfing it that badly into the ground, Heck I might as well have just had Big Bob the Dues Ex Machina walk in and kill Karzoug for them.

A side note, I'm going by the pathfinder versions of the spells as I don't have my dnd books on me at the moment.

EDIT: Wow didn't realize that the thread was almost a month old, found it looking for things to watch out for when I run it in a few weeks. I'll watch the dates from now on ^_^


I think the difficulty here is that how much of a threat karzoug is will vary alot from group to group. 8in our case at l v l 15 he utterly destroyed us. It shoukd be near impossible to catch something with a 36 intelligence by surprise. If your bypassng whole sections of he moduals then honestly i think theres something wrrong.

When things were over for us the dm informed us he had been observing eveything we did since about lvl 3 when the first sehedron amulet showed up.


Talcrion wrote:
Karzoug Would not fall because of Anti-magic field, as his fly ability is not a spell but an ability granted by his runewell amulet, which as an artifact, is immune to Anti-magic field.

Ah. That'd explain why he didn't fall in our scenario. Interesting.

Talcrion wrote:
The Karzoug they fought was obviously toned down if they killed him in two shots, a single sneak attack arrow and a regular arrow from a ranger. I can't picture that coming up to nearly enough to kill him as he is written.

It was three shots; our rogue's devastating sneak attack, the ranger's arrow and the monk's vital strike charge. Honestly, I was initially surprised that that was sufficient but, as our GM told us afterwards, eliminating his buff spells and items effectively removed half of his hit points and sent his AC into the toilet.

I find it hard to imagine that our GM toned Karzoug down considering that she bolstered him with a second wizard and a blue dragon as backup. If anything, she being familiar with our group's tactics, I would expect the opposite to be true.

Talcrion wrote:
Barring some crazy homebrew vorpal arrow of doom.

Such a crazy homebrewed arrow wouldn't have functioned in an anti-magic field anyway. At the time, several of the players were initially frustrated that they lost some of the benefits of their magic weapons and class abilities when striking Special-K because of my spell. I figured that it was a more than fair tradeoff considering how vulnerable it left him though. Seems I was right.

Mojorat wrote:
It shoukd be near impossible to catch something with a 36 intelligence by surprise.

I suspect his intelligence was somewhat diminished in the anti-magic field. *rimshot* ;)

Seriously though, one can't assume that a super-high stat equates with automatic success. Take my PC for example; I've striven to increase his Charisma at every opportunity throughout the campaign. Consequently, he now has a 34 and a maxed out diplomacy skill as well as some potent enchantment spells. It should be near impossible for anyone to resist being enthralled by him. And yet, he doesn't have an army of fanatical followers at his bidding.

Even super geniuses can miss vital clues, make unfortunate errors of judgement or suffer a stroke of bad luck. Honestly, Karzoug has rarely struck me as being particularly clever in his planning. As the campaign unfolded and the means which he employed to survive Earthfall were slowly revealed, I found myself wondering... Why did he go through all that trouble? What I mean is, the campaign is chock-full of ancient Thasilonians who survived Earthfall by a variety of means; all of which were much simpler and far more effective than Karzoug's convoluted and, ultimately, unsuccessful scheme. I mean, the dude spent 10,000 years impotently trapped until freed by accident. Was that a part of his stellar plan? Shouldn't someone with a 36 Intelligence been able to come up with a better scheme?

Fact is, for the sake of playability, amazing stats have to be balanced with the concerns of the campaign, fairness and the ability of the game-designers, GM and players to embody those stellar abilities. So if it isn't fair for my character to have a fanatic throng of followers at his beck and call by virtue of his sheer awesomeness, it isn't fair for a GM to assume that a super genius NPC can't make mistakes or be caught off guard.

As detailed above, our characters methodically researched the obstacles before us and endeavoured mightily to overcome or circumvent each one in turn before confronting Karzoug. It was anything but easy to pull off. Would it have been fair of our GM to disregard our clever efforts simply because an NPC is too awesome to be undone by them? We beat a very intelligent opponent with our own very intelligent counter-plans. Is fighting through an NPC's throngs of defenders, suffering through his traps and then loosing a few companions to his über spells before barely killing him somehow more clever or laudable?

Mojorat wrote:
If your bypassng whole sections of he moduals then honestly i think theres something wrong.

Honestly, I think there's something wrong with the notion that there's only one correct way or order in which to meet the challenges of a module. We tackled the module in the order which made the most sense to us as players. I could just as easily say that the module was erroneously written in the wrong order.

Mojorat wrote:
When things were over for us the dm informed us he had been observing eveything we did since about lvl 3 when the first sehedron amulet showed up.

Our group figured out early on that the Sihedron medallions allowed Karzoug to eavesdrop on their wearers; which is why we didn't routinely wear them and why we avoided donning the Sihedron rings until after Special-K was dead. Doing so was one part of our long term plan to curtail the information our opponent could learn about us.


I have no idea how you would figure that out. And your right there shouldnt be only one rout. We bypassed alot of the city in our game. But theres something wrong when your scouting out the big bad a modual ahead of things finding xin shalast at all was a big part of the adventure.

I will chalk it up to different playing styles as it sounds like your group was alot more optimized than ours.


Certainly no offense meant to your group Ambrus, Like I said to each group their own, it's just looking in on it having a major climatic battle end in the surprise round just seems well anti-climatic lol but if it fit with everything else that was going on and everyone enjoyed it , then that's all that really matters in the end.

I did look into it , he certainly does lose a fair bit of hit points, drops him from 266 and he loses approximately 120 from his magic being disabled. I suppose my issue with this is more of an issue with Anti-magic field being a bit too strong, but that's another topic entirely.

I also didn't know you could do a vital strike on a charge attack, but I'm still getting used to the new pathfinder rules compared to 3.5 so it's always good to learn new things, my groups fighter is going to love that.

My own campaign has a lot of custom content in it as well as I've had them interacting with the Rune lords of Envy and Wrath as well as a heavier influence from the Hell knights going on. I'm looking forward to quite the climatic finish as this is the first AP I've run since switching over to pathfinder.


Mojorat wrote:
I have no idea how you would figure that out.

I assume you're talking about the Sihedron Medallion. It's been almost two years but, IIRC, it came up when we were attempting to identify the various properties of this custom item and the GM concluded her description by cryptically saying that it had some other mysterious quality which we couldn't identify. Although it probably wasn't her intention, that was enough of a red flag for me to warn everyone against using it until we could delve into it deeper. Some further arcane research (and a few good skill checks) revealed it to be crafted in such a way as to serve as the focus for some sort of divination spell. To me that could only mean scrying. A few more investigative spells revealed that it had been crafted by the Runelord of Greed himself some 10 millennia earlier. That was enough for us to avoid ever donning it for more than the few seconds necessary to activate it; and then only with eyes closed and ears covered.

Mojorat wrote:
But theres something wrong when your scouting out the big bad a modual ahead of things finding xin shalast at all was a big part of the adventure.

Honestly, I actually delayed scouting out Xin Shalast for much longer than made sense for my character because of metagame reasoning. I only delayed until we'd accumulated enough levels that going up against an archmage didn't seem ridiculous. Realistically, there's no reason to not head out to investigate Xin-Shalast right after defeating Xananesha in the 2nd module. She's a native of the lost city and it'd be a simple matter to repeatedly use speak with dead to have the deceased lamia matriarch lead an intrepid group back along the route she'd used to reach Magnimar. That'd lead them up into the Kodar mountains, into the Plateau of Leng and right up to Karzhoug's doorstep. Easy peasy.

Talcrion wrote:
Certainly no offense meant to your group Ambrus

None taken.

Talcrion wrote:
it's just looking in on it having a major climatic battle end in the surprise round just seems well anti-climatic

LOL. I can't say I entirely disagree with you. I was so nervous by the prospect of fighting the great Karzoug that I was actually surprised by how quickly he fell. I'd been really hoping to nail him with my tanglefoot bag for the sheer comedic audacity of it. ;)

How it played out has lead me to ponder whether its better to try and play smart or play as intended. But that's another topic entirely.

But, to her credit, our GM doesn't fudge things to benefit the NPCs. So when Special-K ran out of hit points, he fell as he was supposed to. I can respect that. In a sense, it may have been the best possible finale for us; our efforts and preparations bore fruit, we caught our opponent unprepared and each of the party members got to take their best shot at him before he fell... save for our poor paladin who didn't get a chance to act before he went down.

Talcrion wrote:
I suppose my issue with this is more of an issue with Anti-magic field being a bit too strong, but that's another topic entirely.

I'll be the first to agree with you about antimagic field. I casually looked it over white selecting my first sixth level spell beforehand and my eyes nearly popped from my head! It cancels out all spells, both arcane and divine, spell-like and supernatural abilities as well as magic items while only excluding the magic of gods and artifacts; all without Spell Resistance or a saving throw? At sixth level?!? Holy moly!!! Sure, it requires that the caster turn himself into a glorified Commoner and to remain in close proximity to his target, but still... it's a silver bullet vs archmages.

Although my GM may have had occasional reservations about allowing 3.X or 3rd party material into the campaign, she needn't have worried about it; the core material is entirely capable of being devastating and broken all on its own. You should see what my PC did with Magic Jar at Jorgenfist.

Talcrion wrote:
My own campaign has a lot of custom content in it as well as I've had them interacting with the Rune lords of Envy and Wrath as well as a heavier influence from the Hell knights going on.

For her part, I believe our GM stuck pretty close to the A.P. as written. It's just us players who turned it upside down or inside out on occasion.

Talcrion wrote:
I'm looking forward to quite the climatic finish as this is the first AP I've run since switching over to pathfinder.

Best of luck. I'm curious to hear how it goes.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Talcrion wrote:

I also didn't know you could do a vital strike on a charge attack, but I'm still getting used to the new pathfinder rules compared to 3.5 so it's always good to learn new things, my groups fighter is going to love that.

Just let your fighter know that by RAW you cannot vital strike on a charge.

Vital Strike
You make a single attack that deals significantly more damage than normal.

Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +6.

Benefit: When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage. Roll the weapon’s damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together before adding bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming), precision-based damage, and other damage bonuses. These extra weapon damage dice are not multiplied on a critical hit, but are added to the total.

The term attack action refers to a standard action which conflicts with the full round action or standard action of charge.

Charge

Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. Charging, however, carries tight restrictions on how you can move.

If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat. You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn.


bigkilla wrote:
Just let your fighter know that by RAW you cannot vital strike on a charge.

If you can execute an attack at the end of a standard action charge, wouldn't that make it an "attack action"?

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Ambrus wrote:
bigkilla wrote:
Just let your fighter know that by RAW you cannot vital strike on a charge.
If you can execute an attack at the end of a standard action charge, wouldn't that make it an "attack action"?

No. Two entirely different actions.

Here is a quote from Jason Bulmahn the lead designer.

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

As of the current rules, you cannot use Vital Strike as part of a charge. Vital Strike is an attack action, which is a type of standard action. Charge is a special full-round action (excluding partial charge). You cannot currently combine the two. The preview was in error. Alas I did not catch it until weeks later, and by then, there was no point in digging up old topics.

Hope that helps...

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing


bigkilla wrote:
No. Two entirely different actions.

Seems you're correct. Thanks for the helpful quote.

I wonder if the lack of vital strike would have allowed Karzoug to have survived just long enough for our paladin to likewise execute a partial charge against him. That would have been nice for her.


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Karzoug is a transmuter, and to me Golems always were the pinnacle of transfiguration.

Karzoug recovered a few years ago, but was intensely frustrated that he was imprisoned and worse, had nothing to keep him occupied other than the rare reports from his minions. So he turned to research and discovered a way to create Mithril and other ingredient required for crafting certain magical items. So he set out and build two Mithral Golem.
Optional: The Mithral Golems have a Cloudkill breath weapon (SU, Fort: DC 22 1d4+1 recharge, duration 12 minutes)
Optional: The Golem's fists are enchanted as magical weapons and it wears a ring of protection
Flavor: Golem is formed in the image of a dragon.

Karzoug himself isn't in the Runewell but in his hidden lab/quarters that can only be reached through a tiny opening in the floor; whenever Karzoug needs to travel between the rooms he uses an advanced version of reduce person (range personal) that reduces him to the size of an ant. A lift allows him to travel from his quarters to the Eye or back within a round. If the lift is up, gaseous form does not allow passage. So spotting Karzoug or hitting him with weapons will be nearly impossible until after he has cast a few spells and the party has countered his advantage.

If you have more than 4 characters in the party, I'd suggest adding one extra golem per character above 4; alternate between Iron Golem archers in Mithral Full Plate and normal Iron Golems in Mithral Full Plate.
Optional: 'Fire chamber' drawing fire from the elemental plane of fire within the Golem causing 5d6 fire damage to the golem each round (effectively fast healing 5).

If you want to really make the players glad they arrived when they did, have a partially assembled Adamantine Golem in the Eye as well.

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