A Favor Asked of Monk Fans - For Science!


Homebrew and House Rules

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Okay, in the middle of looking at one build, inspiration hit in another direction. :)

Dogs don't have names. They don't need them. Just as they don't need higher education, social training, or any of the other luxuries that citizens receive. Because they're not citizens. They're not even people. Dogs are the trained eyes at your back in the dark. They are the sharp claws at your enemies' throats. They are the thick hides hired to stand between you and any threats of any enemies you may have. They are loyal. They are vigilant. They are persistent. And they are dangerous.

They are the best bodyguards gold can buy. And while they cost a lot of gold, they are worth every single ounce spent. You buy one of these bad boys, you will never regret it, and you'll never be safer.

Dog:

Nameless Dog, born and bred ultimate protector of the elite
Orc Mad Science Monk 7
N Medium humanoid (Orc)
Initiative +2; Senses: Darkvision 60, Scent
DEFENSE===========
AC 22, Touch 16, flat-footed 22 (10 + 2 dex + 3 wis + 1 monk + 6 armor)
HP 59
Fort +7 Ref +7 Wis +8
Defensive Abilities: Evasion
OFFENSE===========
Speed 50
BAB +5
Melee +9 (flurry +8/+8)
Manifested Claws (2d6 + 4; x2)
---> while Expanded (3d6 + 5)
STATISTICS===========
str 18 dex 14 con 14 int 8 wis 16 cha 7
feats: Keen Scent (1), Improved Grapple (mnk1), Combat Reflexes (mnk2), Weapon Focus: Claw (3), Feral Combat Training (5), Improved Trip (mnk6), Bodyguard (7)
Psi Powers (23 pp/day) - Claws of the Beast, Expansion, Metaphysical Claw, Strength of My Enemy, Body Adjustment, Empathic Transfer, Inertial Armor

Daily use (cast when anticipating danger in next 7 hours) - Claws: 2d6 (7pp); Inertial Armor +6 (5pp)

The build is pretty straight-forward, though the concept is fun. These orcs are bred and trained to be little more than animals. Their "monastery" is a terrifyingly rigorous training grounds where they learn to eat and breathe violence. All of their senses are sharpened to border on the supernatural, and the bones in their fingers are arcanically grafted to mimic claws which can -- with training -- become sharper and deadlier. They are strong, fast, tough, ruthless, merciless, and relentless… basically, a potential enemy's worst nightmare.

Respectable AC and claws for 7 hours a day at the cost of about half of his PP pool. Can self-heal, take on the injuries of their ward/master, double their size, reactively boost their ward/master's AC in combat, empower their claws, and -- if they choose - can sap their opponents strength through their claws, growing stronger with each successful strike.

The idea for one would be that he was bought, failed, and is now loose in the world trying to figure out what his purpose is beyond his failure as a "Dog".


Jackie Chan is actually more a fighter or rogue than a monk. As has been pointed out, he doesn't actually have any monk things except weapon proficiencies. You'd could replace his fighter proficiencies with Catch Off-Guard and monk proficiencies, and you'd be able to quite easily create Jackie Chan. :)
I've never liked psionics--they just always seemed a bit too Sci-Fi--but I really like this idea. I'm not exactly sure how one balances it, though--while the current PF monk is an eccentric class, it's more or less balanced. Giving it psionics will inevitably tip that balance.


Eben TheQuiet wrote:
{stuff}

The Cheyenne had dog soldiers who would always be the last to leave the field of battle, and always placed themselves between the vulnerable and the threat. Maybe this would suit a barbarian archetype better than a monk one?


Barbarians are chaotic, so they're less likely to follow the whole 'blind obedience' shtick.


Who said it was blind obedience? besides I was referring to the concept, not the specific build.


Eben TheQuiet wrote:

Okay, in the middle of looking at one build, inspiration hit in another direction. :)

Dogs don't have names. They don't need them. Just as they don't need higher education, social training, or any of the other luxuries that citizens receive. Because they're not citizens. They're not even people. Dogs are the trained eyes at your back in the dark. They are the sharp claws at your enemies' throats. They are the thick hides hired to stand between you and any threats of any enemies you may have. They are loyal. They are vigilant. They are persistent. And they are dangerous.

They are the best bodyguards gold can buy. And while they cost a lot of gold, they are worth every single ounce spent. You buy one of these bad boys, you will never regret it, and you'll never be safer.

** spoiler omitted **

The build is pretty straight-forward, though the concept is fun. These orcs are bred and trained to be little more than animals. Their "monastery" is a terrifyingly rigorous training grounds where they learn to eat and breathe violence. All of their senses are sharpened to...

Looks really good Eben. In fact, that is actually what I imagine when I think of a order of brutish orc or ogre "monks". I dig it. :)


Thanks, Ashiel. We're shooting for a variety of types, right?

And Dabbler, KC has the right of it (though as I look back over my post, I really didn't touch on it specifically -- the danger of hasty posts, I guess)... these guys would be all about ridiculous levels of mental programming and rigid discipline. The kind of guard-dog where you'd give him a command to "Watch that door", and he'd stand there for the next three days -- not even breaking for sleep, food, or water-- until the master came. Sck to give him a new command.

If I actually wanted to play him, I'd come up with a few command words that he'd basically struggle to overcome.


Eben TheQuiet wrote:
Thanks, Ashiel. We're shooting for a variety of types, right?

That is correct.

Quote:

And Dabbler, KC has the right of it (though as I look back over my post, I really didn't touch on it specifically -- the danger of hasty posts, I guess)... these guys would be all about ridiculous levels of mental programming and rigid discipline. The kind of guard-dog where you'd give him a command to "Watch that door", and he'd stand there for the next three days -- not even breaking for sleep, food, or water-- until the master came. Sck to give him a new command.

If I actually wanted to play him, I'd come up with a few command words that he'd basically struggle to overcome.

Congratulation for being the first person in 12 years to spin the monk's lawful restriction in a way that actually seems sensible and cool. Have a cookie!


Eben TheQuiet wrote:
And Dabbler, KC has the right of it (though as I look back over my post, I really didn't touch on it specifically -- the danger of hasty posts, I guess)... these guys would be all about ridiculous levels of mental programming and rigid discipline. The kind of guard-dog where you'd give him a command to "Watch that door", and he'd stand there for the next three days -- not even breaking for sleep, food, or water-- until the master came.

It's a nice concept, but I can't see many players wanting another character to have that much control over them - but I agree, that interpretation of the dog soldier is definitely lawful!

Now onto other ideas, the 'psionic monk' gave me an idea (given my penchant to tinker with what is rather than rebuild anew):

Ki Mysticism
You are able to use your ki to achieve effects that others can normally only achieve through magic.
Pre-requisite: Ki Pool class feature.
Benefit: Choose one 0-level and one 1st-level spell from any spell list. You may now manifest the effects of these spells by expending ki. You must expend one point of ki for the 1st level spell effect, and you may manifest the 0-level spell effect as many times as desired as long as you have ki in your ki-pool. The time taken to do so is the same as the casting time of the spell, and requires only a somatic component and any material components costing more than 1gp. If the time taken is one standard action or less it does not provoke an attack of opportunity. The casting level of the spell is always equal to your monk level -3. This feat also adds a point to your ki-pool.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times. The second time you take it, you may select one 0-level and one first level spell, or one second level spell activated with two points of ki. Selecting this feat a second time adds two points to your ki. The third time you may select a third level spell, manifested with three points of ki, and adding three points to your ki pool, and so on up to fourth level spells. You may not at any time have access to manifest more of a higher level spell than you have of the level below it.
This feat may be selected as a monk bonus feat available at sixth level and onwards.


Honestly, if I were to rewrite the monk from the ground up, I think I'd use one of the most maligned classes to date in PF. The Summoner.

Now, don't go all up in arms, hear me out.

The basic premise of the summoner is very sound. A few basic design flaws at the base result in a lot of issues. These would not be issues for the redesigned monk. No worry about number of attacks (those would be fixed by level). No worry about two creatures (only one).

The monk would be a 3/4 BAB, d8 class with a pool of 'ki' points, but not the same kind as before. Like an eidelon, the redesigned monk would spend his 'ki points' on special monk abilities, growing his style into a custom style all his own. Things like IUS would cost a point, certain feats another point or two, style feats 2 to 4 each, but the real power would come from being able to focus on your type of Monk, and avoid the MAD. Want to be an armored monk sohei? No problem, just buy the powers from the monk power list as you level that boost your natural AC (iron skin), or buy the abilities that let you use other abilities in armor. Want to have super speed and be able to jump from bamboo shoot to bamboo shoot? No problem, buy the powers that let you boost your speed and movement and jumping. Want to be the guy from a fighting game who can make his fists burn and fire his chi at opponents? No problem, buy those abilities.

Silver Crusade

Thinking over the psionic monk and warming up to it more and more. I'm not going to get a chance to playtest anything, but I'm eager to see what others get out of it. :)

Eben TheQuiet wrote:

Okay, in the middle of looking at one build, inspiration hit in another direction. :)

Dogs don't have names. They don't need them. Just as they don't need higher education, social training, or any of the other luxuries that citizens receive. Because they're not citizens. They're not even people. Dogs are the trained eyes at your back in the dark. They are the sharp claws at your enemies' throats. They are the thick hides hired to stand between you and any threats of any enemies you may have. They are loyal. They are vigilant. They are persistent. And they are dangerous.

This reminds me of Unleashed/Danny the Dog and another poster's homebrew concept in the best possible way. :D

Also, Bob Hoskins could actually make for a damn effective adventure villain...

mdt wrote:


The monk would be a 3/4 BAB, d8 class with a pool of 'ki' points, but not the same kind as before. Like an eidelon, the redesigned monk would spend his 'ki points' on special monk abilities, growing his style into a custom style all his own. Things like IUS would cost a point, certain feats another point or two, style feats 2 to 4 each, but the real power would come from being able to focus on your type of Monk, and avoid the MAD. Want to be an armored monk sohei? No problem, just buy the powers from the monk power list as you level that boost your natural AC (iron skin), or buy the abilities that let you use other abilities in armor. Want to have super speed and be able to jump from bamboo shoot to bamboo shoot? No problem, buy the powers that let you boost your speed and movement and jumping. Want to be the guy from a fighting game who can make his fists burn and fire his chi at opponents? No problem, buy those abilities.

Like.

I was going in this direction with my homebrew Vow of Poverty fix. The big difference(besides being something to overlay onto the current vanilla monk) was that the options were laid out a bit like a skill tree you might see in some CRPGs. Maybe just having all of the options in a pool is a better way to go after all.

I have to admit, the ability to tweak the monk to actually fit the many themes people may want out of it has some real pull for me. :) Heck, look at the traction Qinggong got with folks. I'd love to see a take on that concept given a fair shot.


Test Monks
The following are built using my Pathfinder Society monk as a basis (20 point buy), and my own monk rebuild. Essentially this is the same as a standard monk, save as follows:

”Dabbler’s Monk”:
Monk Weapon Training: At 1st level, monks have training to maximize their effectiveness with monk weapons. The monk can be treated as having the Weapon Finesse feat when wielding any monk weapon to which the feat is applied, including the monk’s unarmed strike.

Unarmed Strike: At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may make unarmed strikes with his hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply his full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes.
Usually a monk’s unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but he can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on his attack roll. He has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling.
A monk’s unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
A monk also deals more damage with his unarmed strikes than a normal person would, a medium-sized monk will deal 1d6 base damage for their unarmed strike. A small-sized monk will deal 1d4 damage, and a large sized monk will deal 1d8 damage.

Monk Precision: At 2nd level, the monk gains a +1 competence bonus to damage when using their unarmed strike or a monk weapon. Every four levels this bonus increases by another +1, to +5 at 18th level.

Maneuver Training (Ex): At 3rd level, a monk uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus when calculating his Combat Maneuver Bonus. Base attack bonuses granted from other classes are unaffected and are added normally. In addition, the monk may make maneuvers as if possessing the Agile Maneuvers feat if they do so unarmed, or with a monk weapon, if they wish.

ki Pool (Su): At 4th level, a monk gains a pool of ki points, supernatural energy he can use to accomplish amazing feats. The number of points in a monk’s ki pool is equal to 1/2 his monk level + his Wisdom modifier. As long as he has at least 1 point in his ki pool, he can make a ki strike with his unarmed attack or a ki focus weapon. At 4th level, ki strike gains a +1 enhancement bonus to hit and damage, treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. ki strike improves with the character’s monk level; ever four additional levels the ki strike increases by +1, to a maximum of +5 at 20th level. This enhancement bonus overcomes damage resistance as if it were a magic weapon, but will not stack with a magic weapon’s own enhancement bonus if a ki focus weapon is used – only the higher of the two enhancements will be used, although special properties of the weapon will still apply, as will properties granted by an Amulet of Mighty Fists. At 8th level it also bypasses five points of hardness when damaging objects, and this increases by five points every four levels to 20 points of hardness at 20th level.
By spending 1 point from his ki pool, a monk can make one additional attack at his highest attack bonus when making a flurry of blows attack. In addition, he can spend 1 point to increase his speed by 20 feet for 1 round. At 8th level, the monk may expend a point from his ki pool to make a short flurry of blows as a standard action; the monk may make two attacks, as if the first and third attacks of their flurry of blows. At 15th level, this increases to three attacks, as if the first, third and fifth attacks from their flurry of blows. Finally, a monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool to give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round. Each of these powers is activated as a swift action. A monk gains additional powers that consume points from his ki pool as he gains levels.
The ki pool is replenished each morning after 8 hours of rest or meditation; these hours do not need to be consecutive.

OK, on to my monk builds. I did these at 1st, 8th and 15th level:

”ELITOS CR 1/2”:

Female Human (Taldan) Monk 1
LG Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +7; Senses Perception +7
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 17, touch 16, flat-footed 14 (+3 Dex, +3 Wis)
hp 9 (1d8+1)
Fort +3, Ref +5, Will +5
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 30 ft.
Melee Sai +3 or +2/+2(1d4/20/x2) and
Kama +3 or +2/+2 (1d6/20/x2) and
Unarmed Strike +3 or +2/+2 (1d6/20/x2)
Ranged Sling +3 (1d4/20/x2)
Shuriken +3 or +2/+2 (1d2/10/x2)
Special Attacks Flurry of Blows -1/-1
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 10, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 8
Base Atk +0; CMB +3 (+5 Grappling); CMD 16 (18 vs. Grapple)
Feats: Combat Expertise (human feat), Improved Grapple (monk bonus feat), Improved Initiative (1st level feat), Improved Unarmed Strike, Monk Weapon Proficiencies, Stunning Fist (1/day) (DC 13), Weapon Finesse (Monk Weapons & unarmed strike only)
Traits Indomitable, Vagabond Child (urban): Disable Device
Skills Acrobatics +7, Climb +4, Disable Device +7, Escape Artist +7, Knowledge (History) +6, Knowledge (Religion) +6, Perception +7, Ride +3, Sense Motive +7, Stealth +8, Swim +2
Languages Common, Draconic, Osiriani
SQ AC Bonus +3, Stunning Fist (Stun) (Ex), Unarmed Strike (1d6)
Combat Gear: Sai, Sling, Kama, Backpack, Bedroll, Candle (4), Chalk, 1 piece, Earplugs, Torch, 3, Flask, Flint and steel, Grappling hook, Hammer, Rations, trail (per day) (2), Rope, hemp (50 ft.), Sewing needle, Soap (per lb), String (50'), Waterskin, Whetstone
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
AC Bonus +3 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.

Combat Expertise (take -1 to hit to gain +1 to AC)
Flurry of Blows -1/-1 (Ex) Make Flurry of Blows attack as a full action.
Improved Grapple You grapple at +2, with no attacks of opportunity allowed.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Indomitable +1 to saves vs. enchantment spells and effects.
Monk Weapon Training unarmed strike and monk weapons treated as if the monk has Weapon Finesse.
Stunning Fist (1/day) (DC 14) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist.
Unarmed Strike (1d6) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.

At first level Elitos has an extra feat on the core monk, as she no longer has to take Weapon Finesse in order to hit the broad side of a barn with her low strength. She’s configured to fill in as a scout as well as an effective fighter, should the need arise.

”ELITOS CR 7”:

Female Human (Taldan) Monk 8
LG Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +7; Senses Perception +16
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 28, touch 22, flat-footed 18 (+3 armor, +1 natural armor, +1 deflection, +5 Dex, +6 monk)
hp 51 (8d8+6)
Fort +6, Ref +9, Will +9
Defensive Abilities Evasion
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 60 ft.
Melee Admantine Sai +12 (1d4+2/20/x2) and
Cold Iron Kama +12 (1d6+2/20/x2) and
Mithral Kama +12 (1d6+2/20/x2) and
Unarmed Strike +13 (1d6+9/20/x2)
Ranged Crossbow, Light +11 (1d8/19-20/x2)
Shuriken +11 or +11/+11/+6/+6 (1d2+2/20/x2)
Special Attacks Flurry of Blows +6/+6/+1/+1 (unarmed +13/+13/+8/+8)
Short Flurry (standard action, 1 ki point) +6/+1 (unarmed +13/+8)
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 10, Dex 18(20), Con 12, Int 14, Wis 16(18), Cha 8
Base Atk +6; CMB +15 (+17 Disarming, Grappling, Tripping); CMD 26 (28 vs. Disarm, Grapple, Trip)
Feats Agile Maneuvers (3rd level, Maneuver training), Combat Expertise (human feat), Combat Reflexes (6 AoO/round) (2nd level bonus feat), Dodge (5th level feat), Improved Disarm (3rd level feat), Improved Grapple (1st level bonus feat), Improved Initiative (1st level feat), Improved Trip (6th level feat), Improved Unarmed Strike, Mobility (7th level feat), Monk Weapon Proficiencies, Stunning Fist (8/day) (DC 17), Weapon Finesse (monk weapons & unarmed strike only)
Traits Indomitable, Vagabond Child (urban): Disable Device
Skills Acrobatics +16, Climb +8, Disable Device +16, Escape Artist +16, Knowledge (History) +7, Knowledge (Religion) +8, Perception +15, Ride +8, Sense Motive +15, Stealth +16, Swim +8
Languages Common, Draconic, Osiriani
SQ AC Bonus +6, Stunning Fist (Stun) (Ex), Unarmed Strike (1d6)

Gear (WBL=33,000)
Belt of Dexterity +2 (4,000gp)
Headband of Wisdom +2 (4,000gp)
Amulet of Mighty Fists (agile) & Natural Armor +1 (8,000gp)
Ring of Protection +1 (2,000gp)
Bracers of Armor +3 (9,000gp)
Weapons (see above) (4,000gp)
Consumables & mundane gear (2,000gp)
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
AC Bonus +6 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, +2.
Agile Maneuvers Use DEX instead of STR for CMB
Combat Expertise you may take a -2 penalty to hit for a +2 bonus to AC.
Combat Reflexes (6 AoO/round) You may make up to 4 attacks of opportunity per round, and may make them while flat-footed.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Movement +30feet
Flurry of Blows +6/+6/+1/+1 (Ex) Make Flurry of Blows attack as a full action.
Short Flurry +6/+1 (Su) Make a short flurry as a standard action for 1 ki-point.
High Jump spend 1 ki for +20 to jump
Improved Disarm You grapple at +2, with no attacks of opportunity allowed.
Improved Grapple You grapple at +2, with no attacks of opportunity allowed.
Improved Trip You trip at +2, with no attacks of opportunity allowed.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Indomitable +1 to saves vs. enchantment spells and effects.
Ki Pool 8 points
Ki Strike (enhancement) unarmed strikes are made with a +2 magic enhancement bonus
Ki strike (hardness) unarmed strikes ignore the first 5 points of hardness a target object possesses.
Maneuver Training at 3rd level the monk may use their character level rather than their base attack bonus when making CMB checks. They also gain the Agile Maneuver’s feat.
Monk Precision: unarmed attacks and monk weapons gain a +2 competence bonus to damage.
Monk Weapon Training unarmed strike and monk weapons treated as if the monk has Weapon Finesse.
Purity of Body immune to disease
Still Mind +2 vs Enchantment spells & effects
Slow Fall 40ft
Stunning Fist (8/day) (DC 18) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. 8th level, sickened for 1 minute.
Unarmed Strike (1d6) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
Wholeness of Body heal monk level per 2 ki points expended

At eighth level Elitos has two effective extra feats – Agile Maneuvers and Weapon Finesse with monk weapons. Her AC is adequate for her level, her hit points are disappointing. Her unarmed strike, though, is able to hit and hit hard, the difference being not in damage as much as in hitting. Compared to a TWF fighter she is down on AC (her +6 bonus is not as good as full plate), and slightly down on damage (assuming a fighter rearranges for strength and dexterity, he could hit at +16/+16/+11/+11 for 1d6+9 with 19-20 threat with +2 short swords, spending more on weapons but less on defense). Five points of her damage is coming from the agile property from the AoMF, making it well worth the cash.

”ELITOS CR 14”:

Female Human (Taldan) Monk 15
LG Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +7; Senses Perception +23
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 38, touch 29, flat-footed 18 (+6 armor, +3 natural armor, +3 deflection, +7 Dex, +8 monk, +1 insight)
hp 93 (15d8+15)
Fort +11, Ref +17, Will +15
Defensive Abilities Improved Evasion
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 80 ft.
Melee +1 ki-focus sundering admantine Sai +22 or +24/+24/+19/+19/+14/+14 (1d4+7/20/x2) and
+1 Cold Iron Kama +19 or +21/+21/+16/+16/+11/+11 (1d6+5/20/x2) and
+1 Mithral Kama +19 or +21/+21/+16/+16/+11/+11 (1d6+5/20/x2) and
Unarmed Strike +22 or +24/+24/+19/+19/+14/+14 (1d6+14/19-20/x2)(+2d6 vs evil targets)
Ranged Crossbow, Light +18 (1d8/19-20/x2)
Shuriken +18 or +20/+20/+15/+15/+10/+10 (1d2+4/20/x2)
Special Attacks Flurry of Blows +13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3
Short Flurry (standard action, 1 ki point) +13/+8/+3 (unarmed +24/+19/+14)
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 10, Dex 19(25), Con 12, Int 14, Wis 16(20), Cha 8
Base Atk +11; CMB +18 (+20 Disarming, Grappling, Tripping); CMD 39 (41 vs. Disarm, Grapple, Trip)
Feats Agile Maneuvers (3rd level, Maneuver training), Combat Expertise (human feat), Combat Patrol (9th level feat), Combat Reflexes (6 AoO/round) (2nd level bonus feat), Deflect Arrows (14th level bonus feat), Disarming Strike (13th level feat), Dodge (5th level feat), Greater Trip (11th level feat), Improved Critical (unarmed strike) (10th level bonus feat), Improved Disarm (3rd level feat), Improved Grapple (1st level bonus feat), Improved Initiative (1st level feat), Improved Trip (6th level feat), Improved Unarmed Strike, Mobility (7th level feat), Monk Weapon Proficiencies, Stunning Fist (15/day) (DC 22), Weapon Finesse (monk weapons & unarmed strike only), Weapon Focused (unarmed strike) (15th level feat).
Traits Indomitable, Vagabond Child (urban): Disable Device
Skills Acrobatics +23, Climb +10, Disable Device +23, Escape Artist +23, Knowledge (History) +10, Knowledge (Religion) +10, Perception +22, Ride +8, Sense Motive +22, Stealth +23, Swim +10, 5 ranks other skills.
Languages Common, Draconic, Osiriani
SQ AC Bonus +8, Stunning Fist (Stun) (Ex), Unarmed Strike (1d6)

Gear (WBL=240,000)
Belt of Dexterity +6 (36,000gp)
Headband of Wisdom +4 (16,000gp)
Amulet of Mighty Fists (agile, holy) & Natural Armor +3 (72,000gp)
Ring of Protection +3 (18,000gp)
Bracers of Armor +6 (36,000gp)
Handy Haversack (2,000gp)
Dusky Rose Ioun Stone (5,000gp)
Winged Boots (16,000gp)
Gauntlet of Rust (11,500gp)
Cloak of Resistance +1 (1,000gp)
Weapons (see above) (23,000gp)
Consumables & mundane gear (3,500gp)
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Abundant Step dimension door 2 ki points
AC Bonus +8 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, +3.
Agile Maneuvers Use DEX instead of STR for CMB
Combat Expertise you may take a -2 penalty to hit for a +2 bonus to AC.
Combat Reflexes (6 AoO/round) You may make up to 4 attacks of opportunity per round, and may make them while flat-footed.
Diamond Body immune to poisons
Diamond Soul spell resistance 25
Fast Movement +30feet
Flurry of Blows +13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3 (Ex) Make Flurry of Blows attack as a full action.
Short Flurry +13/+8/+3 (Su) Make a short flurry as a standard action for 1 ki-point.
Greater Trip as Improved trip but the tripped also provoke attacks of opportunity.
High Jump spend 1 ki for +20 to jump
Improved Disarm You grapple at +2, with no attacks of opportunity allowed.
Improved Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead. If you fail you take half damage.
Improved Grapple You grapple at +2, with no attacks of opportunity allowed.
Improved Trip You trip at +2, with no attacks of opportunity allowed.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Indomitable +1 to saves vs. enchantment spells and effects.
Ki Pool 12 points
Ki Strike (enhancement) unarmed strikes are made with a +3 magic enhancement bonus
Ki strike (hardness) unarmed strikes ignore the first 10 points of hardness a target object possesses.
Maneuver Training at 3rd level the monk may use their character level rather than their base attack bonus when making CMB checks. They also gain the Agile Maneuver’s feat.
Monk Precision: unarmed attacks and monk weapons gain a +4 competence bonus to damage.
Monk Weapon Training unarmed strike and monk weapons treated as if the monk has Weapon Finesse.
Purity of Body immune to disease
Quivering Palm DC22 or die within 15 days of being struck
Still Mind +2 vs Enchantment spells & effects
Slow Fall 70ft
Stunning Fist (15/day) (DC 22) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. 8th level, sickened for 1 minute; 12th level, staggered for 1d6+1 rounds.
Unarmed Strike (1d6) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
Wholeness of Body heal monk level per 2 ki points expended

At 15th level, Elitos is decidedly deadly with a variety of weapons at her disposal that can inflict serious damage. Her unarmed strike is still behind what a fighter could inflict with two weapon fighting, and she does not have power attack to increase damage. (For comparison, the TWF fighter with two shortswords would be hitting at +28 for 1d6+17 minimum, with a 17-20 threat, while a ranger or paladin would match her while having the greater threat range and their favoured enemy/smite evil on top). Her AC is still adequate, and hit points still lag behind. She is a glass cannon, but a very fast one who can choose where to fight, when and how. Her best abilities are in maneuvers – with combat patrol she can tie down an area and any foes passing through it. When this doesn’t work, she has her unarmed strike.


I'll try to work up a proposal for a Summoner designed Monk. It might take me a bit.


Now, for a wisdom focused build.
20 point buy, no skills allocated, but partial gear included.
Pathfinder's Monk Bonus Feat progression was used.

Tong Long the Tranquil:
LG Human Monk 11 (old)
Init +2 Senses Perception +7 (no skill points)
========================================================================
AC 23 touch 23 flat-footed 14 (+3 monk, +7 wis, +2 dex, +1 dodge)
Hp 59 (11d8+11)
Fort +8 Ref +9 Will +14 +2 vs enchantment
Immune: disease
Defensive Abilities: evasion, still mind, purity of body, improved evasion
========================================================================
Speed 60ft.
Melee Unarmed Strike +16 (2d8+8)
Flurry +16/+16/+16/+11 (2d8+8)
Special: Stunning fist 13/day DC: 22 (24 with Mantis, and +2 atk)
Monk Powers Known (ML 11th)
4th (7PP) – Immovability, Slip the Bonds
3rd (5PP) – Empathic Feedback, Dimension Slide, Vampiric Blade
2nd (3PP) – Hustle, Animal Aspect, Psionic Lion's Charge,
1st (1PP) – Mind Thrust, Inertial armor, Skate, Catfall
PP: 69
========================================================================
Str 14 Dex 14 Con 12 Int 8 Wis 25 (21) Cha 10
Base Atk +8; CMB +10,CMD 22 (24 vs disarm)
Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike (m), Stunning Fist (m), Psionic Fist (H), Dodge (m1), Throw Anything (m2), Up the Walls (1), Expanded Knowledge (3), Psionic Meditation (5), Improved Disarm (m6), Unavoidable Strike (7), Mantis Style(9), Medusa's Wrath(m), Mantis Wisdom(11)
Skills: 33 points, at least 6 in heal
Equipment (82,000) Wis headband +4, Monk's Robe, +1 Guided AOMF, and 13,000 worth of other stuff
SQ: Ki Strike (Law, Magic), Slow Fall 50 ft., wholeness of body, diamond body

Tong Long is built around wisdom, using lots of psionic feats. The main strategies are:
using stunning fist with jacked up DC, then following with Medusa's Wrath
Abusing the Psionics to gain high power flurry while moving
Use Mind Thrust, snagged with Expanded Knowledge, to do up to 11d10 damage, mentally, (1pp per dice)
Use Unavoidable strike to resolve a strike as a touch attack, often in conjunction with stunning fist
Use Psionics to otherwise buff to the ears.
Disarm opponents and throw their weapons at other enemies.

Good for the wise sage archetype, and while old aged, he still can knock an ogre to the ground with one finger. And that is special.


Brambleman, I really like that build. Looks like everything is working as intended thus far. I like how you use stuff like Stunning Fist in conjunction with the psionic feats, and I see you used Psionic Lion's Charge so you can flurry while on the move. Looks like a good mix of martial and casting. The mind thrust was a nice pickup.

I'll be posting some updates in the near future, so be on the lookout for a remixed pdf on this thread in the near future. :)


To those still paying attention, what do you think of the Dungeonomicon Monk?


o_o;;; Wow. THAT is one sweet monk.


Brambleman wrote:
To those still paying attention, what do you think of the Dungeonomicon Monk?

Very nice concept. Having several fighting styles at your disposal and having to choose one each round giving two (maybe more for Master Fighting Styles) bonuses. I like it.


Dungeonomicon monk is pretty epic. Would need to be reworked a bit for Pathfinder, but a great (though partially overpowered) effort.


LoreKeeper wrote:
Dungeonomicon monk is pretty epic... a great (though partially overpowered) effort.

Only "partly overpowered" if you believe that casters should automatically be better than same-level martial characters. Frank and K were very clear that they didn't believe that, and their (generally excellent) work reflects that.


I am a pre-dominantly monk player; so I have a fair idea of the troubles that monks have to match-up to the big boys. The dungeonomicon monk addresses many troubles that are traditionally part of the monk; but some of the new options available in that write-up are overpowered.


  • While Active, your Fighting Style forces any opponent struck by your slam attack to make a Fortitude Save (DC 10 + ½ your character level + your Wisdom Modifier) or become stunned for one round.
  • While Active, your Fighting Style provides any bonuses it gives to your slam attack to any attack you make with any weapon.
  • While Active, your Fighting Style causes your slam attack to inflict piercing damage and to inflict 2 points of Constitution damage.

Two Weapon Fighting feats will work wonders on this monk variant; particularly from level 9 onwards where it is coupled with the fighting style benefits shown in the list above. That would be a minimum of 5 Stunning Fist attempt equivalents each round (unlimited times a day) as well as 2 Con damage with every hit that connects. The Con damage even makes the stun attempts more likely, its a perfect storm of lethality.

These abilities can be accessed from level 1 onwards, really - meaning 3 stun attempts each round from level 1 onwards. By my book that is overpowered.

I don't really mind the high-level options presented. But there may be some raised eyebrows with respect to at-will gates and 1 mile-radius unbypassable dimensional anchors. I assume though that their other class variants are similarly specced, so that balances out.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Lorekeeper, each style requires a swift action to activate, and lasts only one round. You cannot have all three styles active at the same time without the ability to extend you style duration to 1 round/level. This means you can only do it once per day at 6th and twice at 18th, and it takes two rounds to activate.


Partially overpowered my ass. The Draconomicon Monk is overpowered in EVERY WAY! At 9th level, every time he makes a slam attack, he deals an additional 5d6 sonic damage to everything within 30 ft of him. Give him a potion of sonic resistance and watch as he single-handedly Destroys armies. The 9th level D-Monk will have a BAB of 9/4 and if he TWF, 7/7/4/4. That's the potential for 20d6 sonic damage. At 9th level. Hell, he doesn't even have to hit anyone, he can simply target the ground and inflict the damage. Makes me think of Donkey Kong's Down + B attack in Super Smash Brothers. He could attack the enemy for 7/7 then use the 4/4 to hit the ground and auto-damage them. The ability doesn't even allow a reflex save, so no one can avoid it.

At 6th level, like Lorekeeper mentioned, he can use Walk a Thousand Steps to use the Stunnig Fighting Style for 6 rounds, and for the last 5 of those rounds, he combines that with the 2 point Con Damage fighting Style. This will kill anything with a Con score in just a few rounds considering he's going to have 4/4/-1/-1 with TWF or 6/1 without. That means he's going to have the potential to deal out 40 points of Con damage with TWF or 20 points of Con Damage without it. No save negates either.

Every round, a 9th level D-Monk has the potential to make the target helpless for 1 round. So he runs up, and uses a slam attack to make the enemy helpless. The rogue walks up, and sneak attacks. Then the Monk gets his turn again and forces the enemy helpless, now the rogue coup de graces the enemy. Enemy is dead. Yay for 2 round encounters.

At 9th level, the D-Monk can force every creature within 10 feet to make a will save or be panicked for 1 minute. He can do this every single round.

There are some cool abilities for the the class, but a lot of it is far to powerful to be allowed.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Tels wrote:
The Draconomicon Monk is overpowered in EVERY WAY!

To you. 'Overpowered' is relative to the rest of the options in play.

Silver Crusade

to be honest I've played as, and against, and seen others play, monks.
I've never found a flaw in them for our games. f anything they are slightly irritating to fight because in Pathfinder somehow the ones in our group seem to dodge EVERYTHING.
Monk is not overpowered in our group nor is it underpowered, I've seen my friend Joe play monks that ran circles around monsters and strung togeather insane combos and attacks.
but he's 47 and been playing D&D since 1st edition, before I was born.
Icchi Vulpae himself is a scholary monk. I built off base monk without going crazy like joe did.
there's no satisfaction like punching right through a hellknight's shield and driving a butterfly sword into his gut. though oing monk-rouge and a sneak attack flurry of blows (which stacks) is freaking awesome. too.
either you need flanking, or have to take the full round action to fent, but at higher levels multiple punches at an additional +2d6 each, creates one hell of a flailing firestorm (handwraps of the phenox were used.)


Tels wrote:
Partially overpowered my ass. The Draconomicon Monk is overpowered in EVERY WAY!

If the Dungeonomicon monk is OP, then taking some of that to mix with the Pathfinder monk should be a good basis to bring it up to par with the Ranger. I think that is a good target.

Tels wrote:
At 9th level, every time he makes a slam attack, he deals an additional 5d6 sonic damage to everything within 30 ft of him. Give him a potion of sonic resistance and watch as he single-handedly Destroys armies. The 9th level D-Monk will have a BAB of 9/4 and if he TWF, 7/7/4/4. That's the potential for 20d6 sonic damage. At 9th level.

It's both better and worse then you make it out to be. Getting One slam Attack, even with iteratives allowed, is only one weapon. TWF will require another weapon that is not a slam. Strange isn't it?

On the other hand, the Sonic Style makes the Monk immune to Sonic when the style is in use.

Tels wrote:
he can use Walk a Thousand Steps to use the Stunnig Fighting Style for 6 rounds

The style is extended, but otherwise, that's just stunning fist.

Tels wrote:
The ability doesn't even allow a reflex save, so no one can avoid it.... No save negates either....He can do this every single round.

Aha, here we have found the meat of the problem. Is the problem the concept of the Dungonomicon styles? or is it that some the powers given are not appropriate?

It does seem that several of the individual power options are poorly written, and should probably be revised. But if the styles were edited, the chasis is sound I think.

Hopefully this is some issues addressed, and for the record, as it stands, I would not let the class into my games either. But I am intrigued by its structure as a basis for a Monk rebuild that can address the longstanding complaints that monk fans continue to voice.

More on this Later


Brambleman wrote:
Tels wrote:
Partially overpowered my ass. The Draconomicon Monk is overpowered in EVERY WAY!
If the Dungeonomicon monk is OP, then taking some of that to mix with the Pathfinder monk should be a good basis to bring it up to par with the Ranger. I think that is a good target.

Like I said, some of the abilities are cool, and they are a good idea, but some of them are horrible.

Brambleman wrote:
Tels wrote:
At 9th level, every time he makes a slam attack, he deals an additional 5d6 sonic damage to everything within 30 ft of him. Give him a potion of sonic resistance and watch as he single-handedly Destroys armies. The 9th level D-Monk will have a BAB of 9/4 and if he TWF, 7/7/4/4. That's the potential for 20d6 sonic damage. At 9th level.

It's both better and worse then you make it out to be. Getting One slam Attack, even with iteratives allowed, is only one weapon. TWF will require another weapon that is not a slam. Strange isn't it?

On the other hand, the Sonic Style makes the Monk immune to Sonic when the style is in use.

I believe he can use slam as his other attack in TWF, but I'm not 100% certain on this. Either way, a bonus of 10d6 sonic damage every round, for free, is just crazy. He's going to average, roughly, 30 points of sonic damage every time he makes a full attack. The key is that he never actually has to HIT his enemy, he just has to hit a target. In addition to Donkey Kong, makes me think of several cartoons/anime's like Dragon Ball Z where someone starts punching the other and a crater forms around them.

Brambleman wrote:
Tels wrote:
he can use Walk a Thousand Steps to use the Stunnig Fighting Style for 6 rounds
The style is extended, but otherwise, that's just stunning fist.

No, it's really not. Because every attack he makes that connects, forces a save vs stunning. Stunnig Fist is limited to once per round, this ability, is not. Stunning Fist has limited uses, this ability is unlimited. They aren't the same.

Brambleman wrote:
Tels wrote:
The ability doesn't even allow a reflex save, so no one can avoid it.... No save negates either....He can do this every single round.
Aha, here we have found the meat of the problem. Is the problem the concept of the Dungonomicon styles? or is it that some the powers given are not appropriate?

As far as I am aware, there is no ability, feat, spell, magic property, etc. that allows an attack to deal con damage on every blow in a round, with the possible exception of very small percentage of creatures that have an energy drain or similar, ability.

Player Characters, however, do not have such an ability. There may be a spell that does so, but a spell is a finite resource in a day, and I know that the Rapier of Puncturing can drain Con, but only 3 times per day. This ability can be used an infinite number of times in a day. By damaging 2 points of Con, the enemy is going to be 2 points closer to death, AND he loses a number of hit points equal to his hit die every time those 2 points of Con are lost.

============================

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Tels wrote:
The Draconomicon Monk is overpowered in EVERY WAY!
To you. 'Overpowered' is relative to the rest of the options in play.

I'm glad you don't consider 20d6 points of sonic damage every single round, at 9th level, overpowered. But to me, it is very much so broken.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Lorekeeper, each style requires a swift action to activate, and lasts only one round. You cannot have all three styles active at the same time without the ability to extend you style duration to 1 round/level. This means you can only do it once per day at 6th and twice at 18th, and it takes two rounds to activate.

From level one onward, a fighting style provides any two of the listed benefits. Thus stun and extending it to all attacks is viable from level 1. Even if it costs a swift action every round - it is still viable all day long.

From level 9 onwards one of the advanced fighting options is having more lower level fighting options at once - meaning the three items I pointed out can be used in conjunction.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Not seeing it Lorekeeper. No style allows more than two abilities at a time.

Quote:
I'm glad you don't consider 20d6 points of sonic damage every single round, at 9th level, overpowered. But to me, it is very much so broken.

The monk has to hit all four times to achieve that.


Tels wrote:
Brambleman wrote:
Is the problem the concept of the Dungonomicon styles? or is it that some the powers given are not appropriate?

As far as I am aware, there is no ability, feat, spell, magic property, etc. that allows an attack to deal con damage on every blow in a round, with the possible exception of very small percentage of creatures that have an energy drain or similar, ability.

Player Characters, however, do not have such an ability. There may be a spell that does so, but a spell is a finite resource in a day, and I know that the Rapier of Puncturing can drain Con, but only 3 times per day. This ability can be used an infinite number of times in a day. By damaging 2 points of Con, the enemy is going to be 2 points closer to death, AND he loses a number of hit points equal to his hit die every time those 2 points of Con are lost.

Totally missing the point.

I agree that that is a bad power

The statement is: Is the mechanic of "Fighting Styles" where bonuses are conveyed via an at will activated power a good model or not?

WHAT those bonuses are is not what i was getting at with that statement.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Quote:
I'm glad you don't consider 20d6 points of sonic damage every single round, at 9th level, overpowered. But to me, it is very much so broken.
The monk has to hit all four times to achieve that.

Not really.

Fighting Styles wrote:
While Active, your Master Fighting Style causes 5d6 of Sonic damage to everything within 30 feet of you when you inflict damage with your slam attack against any target. You are immune to Sonic damage while your Master Fighting Style is active.

Any target means any target. You could target the ground, his sword, his shield, the wall behind him. If you strike something, the sonic damage goes off. So you walk up to him, stomp on the ground as your attack. It deals 5d6 points of sonic damage to everything within 30 ft of you. Next round, you use all your attacks to stomp on the ground. Congratulations! You've just dealt 25d6 points of sonic damage, without actually attacking anyone. Hell, one might even say that because I'm attacking the ground, which is an object, it doesn't break my invisibility.

I have mentioned every single time the Monk doesn't actually have to hit anyone. It goes off anytime he targets anything. I don't know why you seem to keep ignoring that aspect of the ability.

Brambleman wrote:
Tels wrote:
Brambleman wrote:
Is the problem the concept of the Dungonomicon styles? or is it that some the powers given are not appropriate?

As far as I am aware, there is no ability, feat, spell, magic property, etc. that allows an attack to deal con damage on every blow in a round, with the possible exception of very small percentage of creatures that have an energy drain or similar, ability.

Player Characters, however, do not have such an ability. There may be a spell that does so, but a spell is a finite resource in a day, and I know that the Rapier of Puncturing can drain Con, but only 3 times per day. This ability can be used an infinite number of times in a day. By damaging 2 points of Con, the enemy is going to be 2 points closer to death, AND he loses a number of hit points equal to his hit die every time those 2 points of Con are lost.

Totally missing the point.

I agree that that is a bad power

The statement is: Is the mechanic of "Fighting Styles" where bonuses are conveyed via an at will activated power a good model or not?

WHAT those bonuses are is not what i was getting at with that statement.

My mistake, the part you quoted was from the Con Damage ability and I thought you were asking if that ability was bad.

I actually really like Fighting Styles, and Pathfinder has already incorporated the idea into the game (See Here) and I wish I could play 7 (exaggeration) different Monks to incorporate some of the styles presented there. Pathfinder also incorporated something similar in all the Rogue Talents and Barbarian Rage Powers. A special Monk Class that custom builds his abilities off a selection of powers is a neat idea, and was partially used in the Qinggong Monk archetype. I'd like to see an alternate play Monk (similar to the Cavalier's Samurai or Rogue's Ninja)that expands on the Qinggong Monk archetype that allows the Monk to really customize his class abilities so people could try and play however they wish. However, I think such an idea is unlikely as they would argue that it invalidates an already established class choice; and we all know how much Paizo hates to invalidate an already existing item. (SKR, I'm looking at you!)

[Edit Part The First!] Here is a video that shows what the Monk with the Sonic Style does. Just watch the beginning at about 00:08.

[Edit Part The Second!]

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Not seeing it Lorekeeper. No style allows more than two abilities at a time.
Lorekeeper is referring to the following passage:
Fighting Styles wrote:
Fighting Style (Su): At levels 1, 3, 5, and 7, the Monk learns a Fighting Style. Each Fighting style requires a Swift Action to activate, lasts one round, and is usable at will. Each Fighting Style must have a name (see Naming Your Fighting Style), and provides two bonuses from the Fighting Style Abilities:

What follows is a list of abilities. Master Fighting Style and Grand Fighting Style have similar passages. When you gain a Fighting Style, you pick 2 abilities and merge them together to create 1 fighting style. When you gain a Master Fighting Style, you pick two abilities and merge them into 1 style. When you gain a Grand Fighting Style, you pick two abilities and merge them together into 1 style. If I've read it correctly, you can activate either a Fighting Style, a Master Style, or a Grand Style each round, but you can't use all three as activation requires a swift action, and the benefits only last until your next turn.

So for my first Fighting Style, I pick two abilities, which will be the Stun and the Con Damage and call it... Naked Hummingbird Fist... Wow really? That's what I rolled? Anyway, so when I use Naked Hummingbird Fist, every time I hit someone, they must make a save vs Stun, and they take 2 points of Con damage. At level 1 mind you.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

At 1st level, it will take you at least four rounds to kill anything with Con damage. You're better off dealing hp damage.

Quote:
I have mentioned every single time the Monk doesn't actually have to hit anyone. It goes off anytime he targets anything. I don't know why you seem to keep ignoring that aspect of the ability

Because I don't care?


Brambleman wrote:
The statement is: Is the mechanic of "Fighting Styles" where bonuses are conveyed via an at will activated power a good model or not?

Great idea - so why not, instead of using the 'broken' styles listed, instead make them free Combat Style feats from Pathfinder? You know, just suggesting the bleeding obvious here...


Tels wrote:
overpowered in EVERY WAY! watch as he single-handedly Destroys armies. At 9th level.

You can already destroy whole armies with a core wizard at 9th level, or with a core cleric at 7th level, without even getting your hands dirty. Use lesser planar binding or lesser planar ally to call up a critter with resonable DR, then watch the hundreds of hapless low-level geeks try to injure the thing while it kills them with impunity -- and meanwhile you're off somewhere else doing other stuff. So if a martial character being able to do the same thing as a caster -- except with a lot more effort on his part -- is "overpowered in EVERY WAY!" to you, then so be it.

A lot of us strongly disagree.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Not seeing it Lorekeeper. No style allows more than two abilities at a time.

This is what it says about fighting styles (emphasis mine):

Quote:
Fighting Style (Su): At levels 1, 3, 5, and 7, the Monk learns a Fighting Style. Each Fighting style requires a Swift Action to activate, lasts one round, and is usable at will. Each Fighting Style must have a name (see Naming Your Fighting Style), and provides two bonuses from the Fighting Style Abilities

Furthermore, one of the master fighting style abilities is:

Quote:
Instead of gaining a Master Fighting Style Ability, you may choose two regular Fighting Style Abilities.

This can be used to create a Master Style that exhibits 4 of the normal Fighting Style abilities.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Mmm, missed that. Interesting.


Kirth Gersen wrote:
Tels wrote:
overpowered in EVERY WAY! watch as he single-handedly Destroys armies. At 9th level.

You can already destroy whole armies with a core wizard at 9th level, or with a core cleric at 7th level, without even getting your hands dirty. Use lesser planar binding or lesser planar ally to call up a critter with resonable DR, then watch the hundreds of hapless low-level geeks try to injure the thing while it kills them with impunity -- and meanwhile you're off somewhere else doing other stuff. So if a martial character being able to do the same thing as a caster -- except with a lot more effort on his part -- is "overpowered in EVERY WAY!" to you, then so be it.

A lot of us strongly disagree.

The difference is the caster is expelling a spell slot. The D-Monk expends no resources performing his deed. In addition, because the Master Fighting Style is created by merging two Master Fighting Style Abilities together, the D-Monk can teleport 60 ft as a free action, then ground pound to deal his sonic damage. So every round he teleports to the location of a group of enemies, ground pounds, and kills everything within 30 ft of him. The Planar Creature may have some SLAs that can effect multiple targets, but they are a limited resource. After that point, it has to engage the entire army, more or less, 1 on 1. The D-Monk could kill the army so much quicker, it's ridiculous.

The D-Monk kills everything in a 60-ft diameter circle. The Planar Creature only kills things within it's very limited reach. The Planar Ally spell requires 500 gp or more of offerings, plus a payment, and a 10 minute casting time, while Planar Binding requires a 10 minute casting time, a prepared trap, opposed charisma checks, and saving throws. Again, no resources are spent by the Monk, everything he has is an at will, infinite number of times per day ability.

D-Monk is still overpowered.


As much as I LOVE the concept, D-Monk has an unfortunate spread of overpowered abilities, and their armor bonus should NOT stack with any kind of other armor. Period. I mean, +14 across twenty levels? if it's supposed to act like a Chain Shirt with no penalties, steadily getting enchanted, it should cap at +9, or if you're feeling REALLY generous, +10. And it stacks with the enhancement bonuses of a worn armor? Madness.

The CONCEPT however, is fantastic. Reduce the power of some of those attachable powers, and give it a spending mechanic to apply really badass powers to it's moves? Then you'd be in business.


Hang on. Is anyone here arguing that 20d6 sonic damage to everything within 30 feet, no save for half, no resist, no nothing, at will, every turn, at 9th level, is balanced in relation to core Pathfinder classes? Or are we arguing whether it is balanced in relation to other material from that source?

I've seen overpowered options that weren't actually overpowered in context, like the old Draconomicon for AD&D 2nd edition. Playing as a dragon was ridiculously overpowered compared to regular PCs....but in the context of a PCs-and-NPCs-as-dragons game, it was fine.


Okay, blahpers, here is the question:

Is the Dungeonmicon monk a good structure for designing a monk rebuild around?


No. A monk rebuild needs to keep as close to the existing monk as possible for backward compatibility. Paizo will never go for anything else.


blahpers wrote:
Hang on. Is anyone here arguing that 20d6 sonic damage to everything within 30 feet, no save for half, no resist, no nothing, at will, every turn, at 9th level, is balanced in relation to core Pathfinder classes?

The Dungeonomicon monk itself isn't arguing that, so no. The damage is 5d6, not 20d6 (swift action activation means 1/round), and is subject to sonic resistance normally.


Kirth Gersen wrote:
blahpers wrote:
Hang on. Is anyone here arguing that 20d6 sonic damage to everything within 30 feet, no save for half, no resist, no nothing, at will, every turn, at 9th level, is balanced in relation to core Pathfinder classes?
The Dungeonomicon monk itself isn't arguing that, so no. The damage is 5d6, not 20d6 (swift action activation means 1/round), and is subject to sonic resistance normally.

Forgive me, but exactly how common is sonic resistance? I think there are maybe one or two specialised monsters, otherwise it is the energy form that bypasses all resistance.


Dabbler wrote:
Forgive me, but exactly how common is sonic resistance? I think there are maybe one or two specialised monsters...

Or anyone with a resist elements or protection from elements spell. Which, if this monk is used, could be just about everyone. Even if not, I'm just not seeing 5d6 damage at 9th level as being game-breaking. At that level we're fighting frost giants with 133 hp, or mutliple hill giants with 102 hp each (the Dungeonomicon monk is for 3.5e). The 18 hp/round isn't really scaring them.


You need to specify in advance what elements/energy you are resisting with those spells - given how common sonic energy is, I don't see many foes being prepared. Stack that damage up with what else could be going on every round and it can rapidly become significant.


Kirth Gersen wrote:
blahpers wrote:
Hang on. Is anyone here arguing that 20d6 sonic damage to everything within 30 feet, no save for half, no resist, no nothing, at will, every turn, at 9th level, is balanced in relation to core Pathfinder classes?
The Dungeonomicon monk itself isn't arguing that, so no. The damage is 5d6, not 20d6 (swift action activation means 1/round), and is subject to sonic resistance normally.

Actually, this is incorrect, try reading the ability again.

D-Monk wrote:
While Active, your Master Fighting Style causes 5d6 of Sonic damage to everything within 30 feet of you when you inflict damage with your slam attack against any target. You are immune to Sonic damage while your Master Fighting Style is active

Anytime you inflict damage with your slam attack against any target (such as the ground, or an enemy), you also inflict 5d6 Sonic damage against everything within 30 ft, both enemies and allies. Remember, every time you pick up a Fighting Style, you gain two Fighting Style Abilities.

This means you could pick up the Teleprt and Sonic abilities and activate the Fighting Style as a swift action, then teleport 60 ft as a free action, and make a full attack and deal 5d6 Sonic damage against every target within 30 ft for every attack he has. The idea is he uses Two-Weapon Fighting and chooses Slam as his other attack, allowing 4 total attacks, totaling 20d6 points of Sonic damage.

Choosing Slam as his second weapon is a little iffy as I'm not sure if it's allowed. Even if it isn't allowed, one still gets 10d6 Sonic damage to everything within 30 ft.


Brambleman wrote:

Okay, blahpers, here is the question:

Is the Dungeonmicon monk a good structure for designing a monk rebuild around?

I'm not sure how to answer that, since you mentioned "structure". One could certainly scale back some (read: a lot) of the abilities while retaining the overall structure and end up with something I'd call "good". (YMMV.) That is, the concept of fighting styles is interesting, and the placement of the tiers doesn't seem to have any problems. It's the magnitude of the tiers themselves that

Since the monk to be rebuilt is a core class, it is expected to be relatively balanced when compared to other core classes. (After all, the perception of the core monk as relatively weak seems to be why people are looking for a rebuild at all.) As written, the tome monk is . . . not in balance with the other core classes. The ability to burst for 10d6 sonic damage to everything within 30 feet at 9th level is pretty good for a martial character, though not as good as a wizard could put out with a little work. The ability to do it consistently forever is where things fall apart. A 9th-level wizard can wipe out a village (as described earlier), but he'd get pretty tired doing it, or he'd have to spend actual resources. A tome monk can do it faster and for free and not even break a sweat--and without giving the affected parties so much as a saving throw. (I mean, who has sonic resistance anyway?)

And if the 20d6 interpretation is correct (I don't think it is; the tome monk appears to only get one slam attack), then that's too much even for a burst. A 9th level wizard or even a twinked-out sorcerer would need some slick moves to match or top that. And the monk could do it again and again and again, while the wizard would have used all his/her upper-level slots in a few rounds.

This doesn't mean that the tome monk is badwrongfun; it works fine if played alongside other classes of similar power, or in a game where everybody is a tome monk, or in a game where the group agrees that monks are supposed to be stronger than other classes. In a standard game, though, the tome monk would have to be scaled back considerably or the rest of the party would likely murder him in his sleep out of envy.


Okay, rereading it, there's only the one slam possible if I read it right. It's a natural weapon attack. Those only get one attack per natural weapon per round regardless of iterative attacks IIRC (for an example, look up the Rune Giant in the bestiary and check out his whopping 2 slams when unarmed). So that'd be 5d6 a round to everything within 30', no save, rarely resist. It's considerably strong in group fights, but not quite as gamebreaking as the earlier interpretations. It's at least in the realm of "let's playtest the thing and see how it goes".

There are some other abilities that could use some tweaking. Getting to employ banishment every round in addition to normal attacks is a bit much; everybody else has to wait until at least level 11-13 to cast it just once a day, and while the tome monk's version requires a melee hit, its DC starts out comparable to the casters' versions and continues to scale with level, while the casters' versions won't scale at all without stat boosts or Heighten Spell. There are other abilities that are a bit much, but no sense in hashing them all out here.


No, the Tome Monk has the Fatal Strike class feature.

Tome Monk wrote:
Fatal Strike (Su): A Monk has a natural weapon Slam in addition to whatever else he is capable of doing. As a natural slam attack, if he uses no other natural or manufactured weapons he adds his Strength and a half to damage and may make iterative attacks if he has sufficient BAB. If the slam is used with other weaponry, it becomes a secondary natural attack, suffers a -5 penalty to-hit, and adds only half his Strength modifier to damage. A monk's slam attack does a base of 1d8 damage for a medium sized monk and does more or less damage as appropriate if the Monk is larger or smaller than medium size.

It's his Class feature that allows him to make additional attacks with his Slam attack, and it's his class feature that gives leeway for Two-Weapon Fighting iterative attacks.

BTW, hopefully to get this thread back on topic since I've done such a delightful job derailing it, what is everyone using to format their posts as a stat block? I'd like to try my own hand at the psychic monk and see what I can come up with, but haven't until now as I've been looking for my 3.5 book, and didn't have a way to reliably format the post (without a lot of effort).


Yeah, I'd drop that iterative attack line like a bad habit.

Re: formatting, I assumed that they were just using bold tags et al.

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