Paizo Top Nav Branding
  • Hello, Guest! |
  • Sign In |
  • My Account |
  • Shopping Cart |
  • Help/FAQ
About Paizo Messageboards News Paizo Blog Help/FAQ
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game
Pathfinder Society

Pathfinder Beginner Box

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game

Pathfinder Comics

Pathfinder Legends

PaizoCon 2014!

A Favor Asked of Monk Fans - For Science!


Suggestions/House Rules/Homebrew

51 to 100 of 161 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | next > last >>

Kirth Gersen wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
That's why I kept monks at 3/4 BAB and slapped psionics on them. I actually believe slapping the psionics on them but giving them a perfect BAB/HD would be too much. I believe this is the Goldilocks point ("Just right").

I'd kind of like to see ALL classes get one of the following, no exceptions:

(1) 1/2 BAB and full (9-level) casting; or
(2) 3/4 BAB and 3/4 (bard) casting; or
(3) 1/1 BAB and 1/2 (ranger/paladin) casting.

And everyone would receive class features as well, of course.
In case (3), the barbarian's rage powers and the monk's ki powers would be their 1/2 casting.

To be really ambitious, we could assign 4 spell types: arcane, divine, druidic, psionic/ki, and assign each of the above combos to them:

  • Arcane: Wizard (full casting); magus (3/4 casting); TBA (1/2 casting).
  • Divine: Cleric (full); inquisitor (3/4 casting); paladin (1/2 casting).
  • Druidic: Caster druid (full); shifter druid (3/4); ranger, barbarian (1/2).
  • Psionic: Psion (full); monk (3/4, per Ashiel's); fighter (1/2).
  • In agreement here. I see no innate balance problems from that. Some would probably complain about classes like Barbarian have magic post 4th level, but it would be pretty balanced, and by that time you're getting out of the realm of human mundanes (though you might also mean special abilities roughly equivalent in versatility and power as having 1/2 spellcasting, similar to ToB).

    I've always been impressed with your mechanics, Kirth. :)

    EDIT: Also Dabbler. Dabbler never ceases to impress me either. Do you know that Dabbler? You are awesome too. ^-^


    Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

    Thank you! I'm more of a minimalist in my approach to fixing the monk - the less changed, the better in my view. However some things have to change to bring the monk up to the Pathfinder standard.


    Dabbler wrote:

    Thank you! I'm more of a minimalist in my approach to fixing the monk - the less changed, the better in my view. However some things have to change to bring the monk up to the Pathfinder standard.

    I can agree with that, actually. That's actually one of the largest reasons I proposed this potential "fix" and why I want people to try it out and give feedback. The entire fix can be basically summed up as:

    Take this class. Slap the spells on it from that class. ???. Profit.

    In essence, it changes diddly about the class, but brings it up to a Pathfinder standard. At least, it has in my experiences. The point of this thread, of course, was not to argue a million pages more about why the monk sucks, but to get people to try this and see what they think. Post some builds. See what sort of monk archtypes they can come up with. That sort of thing. Brambleman has been kind enough to post a mobile wrestling monk specializing in leap-grappling.

    I'd really love more people to hop on this bandwagon and try it for themselves, and see what they can do with it. Heck, I'd love to see people try to break it mechanically; because stress-testing is good.


    Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

    I'll come up with some based on my monk re-build.

    Osirion

    9quote=Ashiel]
    Monk Powers Known (ML 5th)
    2nd (3PP) - Hustle, Painful Strike
    1st (1PP) - Inertial Armor, Catfall, Metaphysical Weapon
    PP: 18 (8 remaining)

    I am new to Psionics Unleashed; I do not understand the "8 remaining" PP. I cannot see how Koji spent 10 points.

    If I read your original poat correctly, you keep all the powers allotted to the monk in D&D 3.5 and add the new powers from psionic ability. Is that correct? How would you feel about using the Pathfinder monk, but replacing all ki powers (extra attack, AC bonus, speed boost, high jump, wholeness of body, abundant step, empty body) with his new psionic ability?

    Our group has a Rise of the Runelords campaign going. I will ask permission to try your new shiny monk there, when I am able to play again.

    The idea was brilliant. I hope Paizo uses something like this in a future CRB.


    Brother Sapo wrote:
    Ashiel wrote:


    Monk Powers Known (ML 5th)
    2nd (3PP) - Hustle, Painful Strike
    1st (1PP) - Inertial Armor, Catfall, Metaphysical Weapon
    PP: 18 (8 remaining)
    I am new to Psionics Unleashed; I do not understand the "8 remaining" PP. I cannot see how Koji spent 10 points.

    Psionics has a very intuitive and fluid system for keeping certain powers relevant. They have features called "augments", which make powers stronger by spending more points. The powers in question are Metaphysical Weapon and Interial Armor.

    He is 5th level, so the most PP he can spend is 5 points (you can only spend as many PP as you have manifester levels). At 5 points, Metaphysical Weapon lasts 5 hours and gives a +2 enhancement. At 5 points, Inertial Armor gives +6 armor for 5 hours. That's where his 10/18 PP went.

    Quote:
    If I read your original poat correctly, you keep all the powers allotted to the monk in D&D 3.5 and add the new powers from psionic ability. Is that correct? How would you feel about using the Pathfinder monk, but replacing all ki powers (extra attack, AC bonus, speed boost, high jump, wholeness of body, abundant step, empty body) with his new psionic ability?

    That would also be fine. If you strip all the ki power and replace the PF flurry of blows (which is a mess) with the 3.5 flurry, all that's really left is more options for bonus feats; which seems entirely fine to me.

    Quote:

    Our group has a Rise of the Runelords campaign going. I will ask permission to try your new shiny monk there, when I am able to play again.

    The idea was brilliant. I hope Paizo uses something like this in a future CRB.

    I hope it goes well for you, and I look forward to hearing your feedback. :)


    I was going to try two other builds, one about disarming and then throwing the enemies weapon, and one about grappling and throwing the enemy.

    Then I realized Jotun could already do that.
    I'll try a new build if inspiration strikes.


    Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
    Brother Sapo wrote:
    Our group has a Rise of the Runelords campaign going. I will ask permission to try your new shiny monk there, when I am able to play again.

    I am running a psionic RotR game on these boards. The psionic classes are well balanced to the game so far.

    Brother Sapo wrote:
    The idea was brilliant. I hope Paizo uses something like this in a future CRB.

    They won't - psionics is done as a 3rd party product, and Paizo have made clear that the psionics system as was does not suit their needs and plans. Simply put, they want every adventure path to be able to run with just the CRB in hand, and psionics is too complex a system to add on. You can add a witch easily, as they use standard casting mechanics, but a psion? You'd have to explain not just the class but the whole system.


    Two things:

    I like the psionic monk concept (flavor as needed). I'm now considering if-or-how it would be possible to work archetypes in, since many archetypes trade off the various ki abilities to get powers. I like archetypes too much to want to give them up.

    I wish monks got the combat expertise feat for free as part of the whole 'rar, I'm supposed to be good at combat maneuvers' schtick. Or at least were counted as having the feat for prerequisite purposes.

    Taldor

    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Tales Subscriber

    Ashiel, have you considered modifying the power list? My Light, Prevenom, COncealing Amorpha, Dissolving Touch etc. don't feel very 'monk', whether mystic old dude or not.


    I think the idea is that this system would at least allow the player the ability what fits with his vision of 'monk'. At least the idea is that we're testing that theory.


    GeraintElberion wrote:
    Ashiel, have you considered modifying the power list? My Light, Prevenom, COncealing Amorpha, Dissolving Touch etc. don't feel very 'monk', whether mystic old dude or not.

    (stealing from manga here)

    How about the monk who has internalized all many forms of poison and can use those poisons as weapons? I can think of a couple of manga examples (Coco the Gentleman from Toriko, and Yanagi Ryuukou and Ri Kaioh from Baki the Grappler)

    So you could have (ML5)

    2nd: Dissolving Weapon
    1st: Call Weaponry, Inertial Armor, Prevenom, Distract

    (Assuming you can take a 1st level power instead of a 2nd)

    Coco fights by excreting poisons from his body in various ways. His Inertial Armor is a hardened mixture of poison and sweat that toughens his skin for hours if needed. He can form a (temple?) sword by mixing poison and blood together, and can even poison his strikes with a deadly Con poison for added effect (Call Weapon reflavored and Prevenom and Dissolving Weapon). Coco is adept at hiding his presence, so I gave him Distract (there's nothing like the Vanish spell so far as I see, so this is close enough).


    Excuse me.

    At this time of the post, I think that my idea is stupid :_(

    But, why not 6 point of ability and put the monk in the rogue/bard league?


    Has anyone done a build based on the subtle, mind-over-body, hyper-aware warrior?

    Osirion

    Dabbler wrote:
    ... psionics is too complex a system to add on. You can add a witch easily, as they use standard casting mechanics, but a psion? You'd have to explain not just the class but the whole system.

    You make an excellent point (which I inadvertently confirmed in my first post).

    Perhaps the monk could be a sort of "spontaneous caster", with a spell progression similar to that of the bard. The monk's powers would be spell-like abilities.

    Anyway, we have a cool idea to play test.


    1 person marked this as a favorite.
    Brother Sapo wrote:
    Dabbler wrote:
    ... psionics is too complex a system to add on. You can add a witch easily, as they use standard casting mechanics, but a psion? You'd have to explain not just the class but the whole system.

    You make an excellent point (which I inadvertently confirmed in my first post).

    Perhaps the monk could be a sort of "spontaneous caster", with a spell progression similar to that of the bard. The monk's powers would be spell-like abilities.

    Anyway, we have a cool idea to play test.

    Ironically, psionics is less complicated than core casting. If you can track HP, you've got half of psionics down. :P


    I just wanted to throw out a couple comments:

    I'm what some might call a "monk-hater." I regularly ban them as a DM both because I don't like eastern classes mixed in with western medieval fantasy and because I find the monk to ruin my own suspension of disbelief. I study military history, and if an arquebus can't penetrate a renaissance breastplate, there is no way a fist could. About the only way I can conceivably see an unarmed warrior harming a man in plate armor is to break his limbs through grappling.

    I suppose at this point a lot of people reading this want to tar and feather me, for saying Jacki Chan would lose to Sir Lancelot 99% of the time...but bear with me.

    The biggest reason I have a problem with monks is that what they can do mechanically is unrealistic. Now, by unrealistic I mean two things: first and foremost, that it breaks the laws of physics or otherwise violates what would be possible in the real world under similar circumstances. I have a problem with the idea that in a world with undead, dragons, and fireball spells the nature of gravity, the hardness of metal, or other such things would somehow be different. Magic allows such things to be altered and bypassed, such as allowing a huge creature to fly, or a dead thing to walk, but where there is no magic effect, things are going to behave the same. The second thing I am getting at is that many of the monk's abilities are either extraordinary abilities, or else supernatural ones that offer no explanation for how they work. How exactly does a monk's wisdom score provide a bonus to AC for instance? How does a monk's fist do more damage the same monk armed with a weapon? Some things don't make sense and need to be explained.

    Which is the point I've been getting to. I don't really like psionics as they've been done in the past, as a rule. What I'd like to see them is be simplified as simply another subset of magic (Divine, Arcane, Psionic) and have psionics behave more like magic for simplicity and ease of use. Having the monk be a psionic class, probably replacing the psychic warrior and/or the the soul-blade would be rather simple. A monk would be a psionic class comparable to a ranger, bard, magus, or paladin. Before buffs, a monk would be basically an unarmed and armorless fighter with improved unarmed strike. After infusing himself with psionic power, he can punch like a giant, has natural armor like a dragon, run speed like a cheetah and is hasted and blurred. At high levels he can even fly as per the spell (like Neo). There are a number of ways you could mechanically work this, but I'd personally kind of like to see the monk modeled of the Barbarian. Finally, the monk shouldn't be so penalized for using weapons. Perhaps a variant could exchange weapon proficiencies and as a sacred vow in return for increased unarmed damage.

    Shadow Lodge

    ...not sure if trolling....


    Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
    Brother Sapo wrote:
    Dabbler wrote:
    ... psionics is too complex a system to add on. You can add a witch easily, as they use standard casting mechanics, but a psion? You'd have to explain not just the class but the whole system.

    You make an excellent point (which I inadvertently confirmed in my first post).

    Perhaps the monk could be a sort of "spontaneous caster", with a spell progression similar to that of the bard. The monk's powers would be spell-like abilities.

    Anyway, we have a cool idea to play test.

    I'm a a minimalist, I wouldn't even go that far. Whatever changes we advocate we do not want to completely re-write the monk because of all the existing monk builds in various supplements out there. We want as few changes as possible.

    Easiest way to do this is through items and/or feats. I hate that, it's not really a fix at all, just a band-aid, but face it - it's the most likely solution to be accepted and implemented by Paizo. I suggested some here. I think it's a pain because the monk is having to blow feats as it is, but there you are - at least this does not invalidate anything that has gone before. No existing monks in any supplements need changes.

    Second easiest, and less likely to be accepted is a re-write that changes as few class features as possible, but keeps the existing monk. Again, I put some ideas down that kept as much of the existing system in one piece as possible, but improves many of the areas where the monk is thought to be failing. I'll use these to post up some builds when I get a chance. Not a huge amount changes, but the monk does become more offensively effective.

    I like the psionic monk concept, I just don't see it ever being implemented save by Dreamscared as a psychic warrior archetype.


    1 person marked this as a favorite.
    Sir Cirdan wrote:
    The biggest reason I have a problem with monks is that what they can do mechanically is unrealistic. Now, by unrealistic I mean two things: first and foremost, that it breaks the laws of physics or otherwise violates what would be possible in the real world under similar circumstances. I have a problem with the idea that in a world with undead, dragons, and fireball spells the nature of gravity, the hardness of metal, or other such things would somehow be different. Magic allows such things to be altered and bypassed, such as allowing a huge creature to fly, or a dead thing to walk, but where there is no magic effect, things are going to behave the same. The second thing I am getting at is that many of the monk's abilities are either extraordinary abilities, or else supernatural ones that offer no explanation for how they work. How exactly does a monk's wisdom score provide a bonus to AC for instance? How does a monk's fist do more damage the same monk armed with a weapon? Some things don't make sense and need to be explained.

    This makes me want to stab myself in the brain with a pencil. It HURTS!

    If the game world has enough magic in it that undead walk around freely and wizards can stop time, then the setting is totally saturated with magic. Even mundane people eat and breathe magic all day long. If they are somehow immune to this, then make them immune across the board, by giving them golem-like "magic immunity." Otherwise, accept that high-level fighters have soaked up enough magic in their day to do stuff that makes Die Hard seem realistic.

    With regards to your second point, fluff can always be manufactured to support the mechanics, if they're sound. I treat the Wis bonus to Dex as an insight bonus -- you've been in so many fights you're on the lookout for ambushes and blows to various places, and are good at avoiding them. Others might come up with other explanations -- maybe the see a fraction of a second into the future, like in Dune. Whatever.


    Sir Cirdan wrote:
    Magic allows such things to be altered and bypassed, such as allowing a huge creature to fly, or a dead thing to walk, but where there is no magic effect, things are going to behave the same.

    AM VIOLATING SQUARE-CUBE LAW NO-MAGIKALLY ALL THE TIME!


    TOZ wrote:
    ...not sure if trolling....

    When in doubt, do not feed.


    Eben TheQuiet wrote:
    Has anyone done a build based on the subtle, mind-over-body, hyper-aware warrior?

    Not yet. Feel free to amaze us! :D

    Sir Ellrohir the Shining Lancer wrote:

    I just wanted to throw out a couple comments:

    I'm what some might call a "monk-hater." I regularly ban them as a DM both because I don't like eastern classes mixed in with western medieval fantasy and because I find the monk to ruin my own suspension of disbelief. I study military history, and if an arquebus can't penetrate a renaissance breastplate, there is no way a fist could. About the only way I can conceivably see an unarmed warrior harming a man in plate armor is to break his limbs through grappling.

    No, fists can't penetrate a breastplate. The shock might be upsetting, but more than likely you wouldn't have much luck penetrating even being a hardcore martial artist. Of course, that's why Jiu Jitsu and latter Judo has few to no strikes, and focuses on grabs and throws. Samurai wore thick armor that made unarmed strikes more or less useless, but the extra armor made them very vulnerable to getting tossed. Styles like Akeido would also be pretty effective against people in plate mail, as it would use the extra weight to hurt them.

    Just tossing that out there as a fellow lover of military history.

    Quote:
    I suppose at this point a lot of people reading this want to tar and feather me, for saying Jacki Chan would lose to Sir Lancelot 99% of the time...but bear with me.

    I think Jackie Chan is a great actor and he's obviously very athletic and nimble. Given a weapon, he might be able to kill Lancelot; as I honestly have no idea how good a warrior Lancelot was, barring second hand accounts handed down; whereas I can see how strong and physically powerful certain modern individuals are. I don't think there's any reason for me to assume any martial artist of any discipline (be it chinese Kung Fu, Akeido, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, the Israeli Krav Maga, or the ancient German Flos Duellatorum) could certainly overcome Lancelot, or be overcome by Lancelot, depending on just how martially skilled Lancelot was.

    Quote:
    The biggest reason I have a problem with monks is that what they can do mechanically is unrealistic. Now, by unrealistic I mean two things: first and foremost, that it breaks the laws of physics or otherwise violates what would be possible in the real world under similar circumstances. I have a problem with the idea that in a world with undead, dragons, and fireball spells the nature of gravity, the hardness of metal, or other such things would somehow be different.

    It's not really about the hardness of metal. If it was merely the hardness of metal, then virtually no weapons would find their mark. A longsword is going to do diddly against a direct hit to plate mail, and is only going to smart a bit against chain mail which completely stops its cutting power. In essence, it is not the attacks that are stopped by the armor that deal damage. It's the ones that get through. The guy who catches the sword-arm of a knight and strikes him beneath the arm, or manages to land a shot to the throat, or repeatedly strike an area to deal successive concussive damage that causes tissue to bruise.

    This is demonstrated by unarmed strikes dealing 1d3 damage, and typically deal nonlethal damage. Hand a commoner a sword and some armor, and another commoner some armor and his hands, and see who wins. More than likely the guy with the sword, because when one of his attacks catches a vulnerable place he is going to deal some real damage. The other guy won't. So he has to take a feat or a class to represent rigorous training to become more lethal.

    So what occurs? Well the unarmed fighter is going to learn to avoid the weapon more effectively (no longer provoking attacks) and learns to make lethal strikes against his opponent. He might smash a knee, or kick the other guy with perfectly directed force to knock the wind out of him or disrupt his heart rhythm, potentially killing or leaving him stunned for a moment. Jiu Jitsu followed this principle. Once the heavily armored foe has been thrown or dazed, you kill them with a blow to the throat or a stabbing weapon (in the case of Samurai who began the fighting style).

    Quote:
    Magic allows such things to be altered and bypassed, such as allowing a huge creature to fly

    Most large creatures in D&D do not fly because of magic. Rocs, dragons, and other examples of giant creatures do not fly due to supernatural effects at all; and can continue flying even in an antimagic field or similar. Balors and Pit Fiends are as large a grizzly bears and are flying winged humanoid shaped monsters. Just wanted to point this out for consistency.

    Quote:
    or a dead thing to walk, but where there is no magic effect, things are going to behave the same. The second thing I am getting at is that many of the monk's abilities are either extraordinary abilities, or else supernatural ones that offer no explanation for how they work. How exactly does a monk's wisdom score provide a bonus to AC for instance? How does a monk's fist do more damage the same monk armed with a weapon? Some things don't make sense and need to be explained.

    Stuff like this leads me to believe D&D is not for you. I don't that offensively. Just that humans in D&D can happily make world record jumps while in 20-40 lbs. of armor all day, every day, with no problems. This is not magic. This is purely due to extraordinary skill. For 5 ranks, +3 class skill, +3 skill focus, +3 Dexterity, -3 armor check penalty, means a Rogue1/Fighter4 can jump 21 feet with a 20 ft. head start. No magic involved. At all.

    How do you deal with stuff like that? How do you handle the fact Barbarians can stand and let a normal person stab them with a dagger repeatedly and not even break their skin? (DR 4/- makes them immune to anything except a critical hit)

    Why does your head not explode when a fighter with an 18 Strength, Power Attack, and a decent BAB can tear through a 5 ft. stone wall in under a minute with a stick he picks up off the ground? Or pummel through it with his gauntlets or even his own unarmed strikes?

    Quote:
    Which is the point I've been getting to. I don't really like psionics as they've been done in the past, as a rule. What I'd like to see them is be simplified as simply another subset of magic (Divine, Arcane, Psionic) and have psionics behave more like magic for simplicity and ease of use. Having the monk be a psionic class, probably replacing the psychic warrior and/or the the soul-blade would be rather simple. A monk would be a psionic class comparable to a ranger, bard, magus, or paladin. Before buffs, a monk would be basically an unarmed and armorless fighter with improved unarmed strike. After infusing himself with psionic power, he can punch like a giant, has natural armor like a dragon, run speed like a cheetah and is hasted and blurred. At high levels he can even fly as per the spell (like Neo). There are a number of ways you could mechanically work this, but I'd personally kind of like to see the monk modeled of the Barbarian. Finally, the monk shouldn't be so penalized for using weapons. Perhaps a variant could exchange weapon proficiencies and as a sacred vow in return for increased unarmed damage.

    Well, I personally think we have an over abundance of vancian casting as it is, and thus far what you describe is more or less what I've found this marriage of 3.5/DSP psionics and the 3.5 monk provides. I'm not sure if you noticed, but the second monk that was posted actually fights with weapons primarily (broadswords, actually). It's also easier to fit into different campaign settings, in my humble opinion, because there is more customization to their abilities.

    As for monks getting wisdom to AC, can't say, except it's apparently just another form of being physically more resilient from a heightened mental awareness we cannot easily explain. Similar to how shaolin monks can balance on the tips of spears with their sternum, or even snap spears in half by pressing against them with their bodies outstretched. It's not something normal, but neither is a barbarian flossing with barbed wire. :P


    I wish you good luck and the idea for what you have is neat, but I would rather see the Ki system fleshed out better ala the ninja. The assertion someone made earlier of half/faux caster doing their role much better is right on the money. Anecdotal evidence for me was playing my inquisitor vs a friend playing monk in our group in a low magic campaign, it was painful to watch.


    Kirth Gersen wrote:
    Sir Cirdan wrote:
    The biggest reason I have a problem with monks is that what they can do mechanically is unrealistic. Now, by unrealistic I mean two things: first and foremost, that it breaks the laws of physics or otherwise violates what would be possible in the real world under similar circumstances. I have a problem with the idea that in a world with undead, dragons, and fireball spells the nature of gravity, the hardness of metal, or other such things would somehow be different. Magic allows such things to be altered and bypassed, such as allowing a huge creature to fly, or a dead thing to walk, but where there is no magic effect, things are going to behave the same.

    This makes me want to stab myself in the brain with a pencil. It HURTS!

    If the game world has enough magic in it that undead walk around freely and wizards can stop time, then the setting is totally saturated with magic. Even mundane people eat and breathe magic all day long. If they are somehow immune to this, then make them immune across the board, by giving them golem-like "magic immunity." Otherwise, accept that high-level fighters have soaked up enough magic in their day to do stuff that makes Die Hard seem realistic.

    This simply does not follow. You argument goes something like this.

    A wizard can use magic to create zombies
    A wizard can use magic to stop time
    Therefore, a fighter can jump across the grand canyon.

    Magic comes from somewhere. Whether drawn from nature or words of power or the blessings of a deity, magic isn't just "there." Spell-casters are special classes that have learned to channel power from various sources. What you're talking about is a sort of campaign setting where the normal folks have levels in sorcerer instead of commoner. If you give the fighter an expeditious retreat and a jump spell, I'm sure he can leap superhuman distances, but that is magic at work. I fail to see any logical reason that a wizard lobbing fireballs would do anything different to a fighter than being near a grass fire.

    BTW, if I was trolling, I wouldn't be trying to make a point, I'd simply be making fun of monks, which is pretty easy to do. As is, I'm just trying to point out that psionics seems one of the better ways that one could explain a monk's superhuman abilities, as natural explanations don't work as well (for a host of reasons I'd rather not argue). There are a lot of people who love monks, and there are also a lot of people who hate monks, for various reasons. Making monks a bit less cheesy and a bit more useful could reconcile most of these people.

    Andoran

    Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
    Doomed Hero wrote:
    TOZ wrote:
    ...not sure if trolling....
    When in doubt, do not feed.

    No worries, Ashiel has it well in hand.


    TriOmegaZero wrote:
    Doomed Hero wrote:
    TOZ wrote:
    ...not sure if trolling....
    When in doubt, do not feed.
    No worries, Ashiel has it well in hand.

    Uh, thanks, I think. ^-^"

    I figure everyone is worth the benefit of the doubt, right? ^-^


    Matthias wrote:
    I wish you good luck and the idea for what you have is neat, but I would rather see the Ki system fleshed out better ala the ninja. The assertion someone made earlier of half/faux caster doing their role much better is right on the money. Anecdotal evidence for me was playing my inquisitor vs a friend playing monk in our group in a low magic campaign, it was painful to watch.

    Oh yeah? How did that monk & inquisitor thing go? O.o


    1 person marked this as a favorite.
    Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
    Sir Cirdan wrote:

    Therefore, a fighter can jump across the grand canyon.

    He can certainly survive a fall to the bottom.

    You forget also that the monk is meant to be a mystic warrior. So a real-life martial artist cannot punch through a breastplate? A mystic focusses his ki energy and delivers the strike so the the shock-waves flow through it and pulverise the body beneath.

    The monk is not based on REAL martial arts any more than the fighter's toughness is based on what real people can withstand, it's based on legends, pop culture and fantasy tropes.

    IRL could an unarmed martial-artist defeat an armoured knight? Not in a slugging match, no. He could get the knight to chase him around until said knight keeled over from heat exhaustion, or use terrain to come up behind him and drop him on his face (visors had little visibility), but these are not represented well in the D&D mechanics. The blow-by-blow fight is much more fun, so the game gives it to us.


    While the monk is different from the classic medieval mythology many of us envision, I think there is still room for the monk.

    Firstly, if you don't want monks, that is fine. Lets just get that out there. Play the game you find fun.

    But, the classic medieval mythology is already a mash u to begin with. The stories of knights in shining armor mix renaissance technology and social mores into older, iron age and classical stories to give us our current versions. We stack modern ethical sensibilities on top of that. Yet we still have fun.

    Secondly, the monk need not keep the Eastern Kung-Fu fluff. Though the core monk is very steeped in it, i do recognize.

    Third, sometimes it is fun to play a stranger in a strange land.


    Ashiel wrote:
    Matthias wrote:
    I wish you good luck and the idea for what you have is neat, but I would rather see the Ki system fleshed out better ala the ninja. The assertion someone made earlier of half/faux caster doing their role much better is right on the money. Anecdotal evidence for me was playing my inquisitor vs a friend playing monk in our group in a low magic campaign, it was painful to watch.
    Oh yeah? How did that monk & inquisitor thing go? O.o

    we were both level 11 and im not sure whether he was unoptimized or not but my average damage was 46 per swing with 3 swings(good/adamantine vs DR OR +4 to hit) vs his average being something around 14 per swing with 5 attacks. comes out to 138 damage versus 70 per round. Our equipment was relatively the same (no magic armor, i had a +1 falchion vs his +2 AoMF). I felt bad about it cause my damage was higher AND i had the ability to heal, buff, or run utility with spells and the ridiculous amount of skillpoints i got.


    I can relate to Sir Cirdan's point to some extent, but I made a sort of internally consistent peace with it long ago. To me the affront was HP damage and what the heck it was supposed to represent. A giant smashes you with a huge club and you take 56 damage which is ....the amount of effort it took to actually avoid it because the only hit that counts is the last one? I never liked that explanation, but then you are left with normal folk filling in as dragon chewing gum from time to time and you have a whole other suspension of disbelief problem. I settled on it this way: Everybody's magic.

    Sure, the magic users like wizard and cleric are the most obvious examples, they take whatever ambient energy source is powering them and convert it into specific effects called spells, it's flashy and everyone knows something magic has just happened. For the melee guys I just figure that their conscious mind sucks at the whole magic thing, they are too grounded, they can't reach out and grasp it like the masters. Their unconscious primal mind is a different story however. Whenever they are reaching their physical limits of durability, strength, skill, etc. their body taps into some ambient energy to get a little more oomph out of it. The process is gradual and only begins to breach physical limitations in the mid to upper levels.

    After laying it out that way monks didn't bother me one bit. We're dealing with superhumanoids. And compared to commoners or NPC classes, they most certainly are.


    Ashiel wrote:
    TriOmegaZero wrote:
    Doomed Hero wrote:
    TOZ wrote:
    ...not sure if trolling....
    When in doubt, do not feed.
    No worries, Ashiel has it well in hand.

    Uh, thanks, I think. ^-^"

    I figure everyone is worth the benefit of the doubt, right? ^-^

    Sigh. Fine. I'm a sucker for emoticons.

    Sir Cirdan wrote:


    A wizard can use magic to create zombies
    A wizard can use magic to stop time
    Therefore, a fighter can jump across the grand canyon.

    You're sooo close to the actual argument here.

    If a wizard can use magic to create zombies
    If wizard can use magic to stop time
    Then it should not be a surprise when a monk jumps across the grand canyon.
    Or a fighter survives a fall to the bottom.

    This is not a game based in any way on reality. To argue that it is, or should be, is to admit that you don't understand the nature of the game. It's fine to argue that certain things that don't work mechanically would be better if they behaved in a way that reflects how they might work in real life as long as that doesn't negate their playability.

    We don't want a realistic monk. We want a mechanically viable, interesting and fun monk. It is not productive to argue that because no previous incarnations have worked that we'd be better of scrapping the whole idea. In colloquial terms that's called "throwing the baby out with the bathwater". It's bad and we don't want to do it.

    Once we have a monk that works you are free to use it or not use it as it suits your game.

    Silver Crusade

    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
    Sir Cirdan wrote:
    The biggest reason I have a problem with monks is that what they can do mechanically is unrealistic.

    Two days ago my level 5 barbarian survived a 50 foot drop on his face after grazing the cliffside on the way down while paralyzed and not raging and holding a starknife that wound up buried in his side. For a grand total of 20 or so points of damage.

    Realism and physics step aside for non-casting classes already. Let the monk, a mystical martial artist already steeped in the supernatural, enjoy the Rule of Cool in a mechanically viable manner too.


    Kirth Gersen wrote:
    Sir Cirdan wrote:
    The biggest reason I have a problem with monks is that what they can do mechanically is unrealistic. Now, by unrealistic I mean two things: first and foremost, that it breaks the laws of physics or otherwise violates what would be possible in the real world under similar circumstances. I have a problem with the idea that in a world with undead, dragons, and fireball spells the nature of gravity, the hardness of metal, or other such things would somehow be different. Magic allows such things to be altered and bypassed, such as allowing a huge creature to fly, or a dead thing to walk, but where there is no magic effect, things are going to behave the same. The second thing I am getting at is that many of the monk's abilities are either extraordinary abilities, or else supernatural ones that offer no explanation for how they work. How exactly does a monk's wisdom score provide a bonus to AC for instance? How does a monk's fist do more damage the same monk armed with a weapon? Some things don't make sense and need to be explained.

    This makes me want to stab myself in the brain with a pencil. It HURTS!

    If the game world has enough magic in it that undead walk around freely and wizards can stop time, then the setting is totally saturated with magic. Even mundane people eat and breathe magic all day long. If they are somehow immune to this, then make them immune across the board, by giving them golem-like "magic immunity." Otherwise, accept that high-level fighters have soaked up enough magic in their day to do stuff that makes Die Hard seem realistic.

    With respect, Kirth, as a response to Sir Cirdan's points, this is just silly.

    You're talking about magic as if it is some sort of substance that floats around in your world, like nitrogen in the air, and physically seeps into things and people, and becomes part of them, and gives them powers; and that "unrealistic" things like undead and wizards are powered by this ambient "magic-stuff" which "saturates" the atmosphere.

    Well, that sounds like an interesting concept, and one which might be developed into a fascinating campaign setting...

    ... but there's absolutely no indication anywhere in the rules that this is how magic is assumed to work in Pathfinder. Furthermore, I am not aware of any well-known fictional fantasy setting that works like this, especially among those from which D&D draws its tropes. (I am open to being corrected on this one, though. I've read a good bit of fantasy fiction, but by no means most or all of it.)

    In fact, most fantasy settings that I've encountered take as the base assumption that the world is basically like our world; same physical laws, humans have the same default capabilities. Magic is something extraneous, something "unnatural" (though not necessarily in a bad way), that allows one to transcend physical laws. And most fantasy settings include the "non-magical but nonetheless badass" character archetype. D&D has historically been exactly like this. All D&D fighters that I've seen depicted in any sort of flavor text or D&D fiction are people with no magic powers. Are they very, very tough and skilled in combat? Absolutely. Superhumanly so, sometimes. But magic? I don't know of any D&D source that depicts fighters as possessing any sort of actual magic — where "magic" is defined as "whatever sort of power it is, that wizards and clerics and other spellcasters draw on, that allows them to transcend physical laws, which otherwise, by default, are just the same as they are in the real world."

    That having been said — let me just say that I think Ashiel's idea is fantastic; with your permission, Ashiel, I will totally be stealing it for the campaign setting that I'm working on.


    Ashiel wrote:
    Psionics. A power gained through inner focus. The perfect creature to splice with the monk to create a better life form.

    Love it. I always liked psionics very much (Dark Sun...) and the new rules look quite nice.

    One question, though:

    Ashiel wrote:

    Koji the Ki Warrior CR 5

    N Humanoid (human, psionic) Monk 5
    ...snip...
    PP: 18 (8 remaining)

    Where do the 18 PP come from? The Psychic Warrior has 8 PP at 5th level and Koji has Wis 18, giving another +4. Where do the remaining 6 PP come from?


    Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
    Mikaze wrote:
    Sir Cirdan wrote:
    The biggest reason I have a problem with monks is that what they can do mechanically is unrealistic.

    Two days ago my level 5 barbarian survived a 50 foot drop on his face after grazing the cliffside on the way down while paralyzed and not raging and holding a starknife that wound up buried in his side. For a grand total of 20 or so points of damage.

    Realism and physics step aside for non-casting classes already. Let the monk, a mystical martial artist already steeped in the supernatural, enjoy the Rule of Cool in a mechanically viable manner too.

    Realism and physics step aside after the first few levels, period, and for casters it makes allowances at level 1.


    Liam ap Thalwig wrote:
    Ashiel wrote:
    Psionics. A power gained through inner focus. The perfect creature to splice with the monk to create a better life form.

    Love it. I always liked psionics very much (Dark Sun...) and the new rules look quite nice.

    One question, though:

    Ashiel wrote:

    Koji the Ki Warrior CR 5

    N Humanoid (human, psionic) Monk 5
    ...snip...
    PP: 18 (8 remaining)

    Where do the 18 PP come from? The Psychic Warrior has 8 PP at 5th level and Koji has Wis 18, giving another +4. Where do the remaining 6 PP come from?

    Psionic characters have PP equal to Base PP + (KeyMod/2). So a +4 Wisdom gives +2 PP / manifester level. In fact, there is no need to keep referencing a chart to check your PPs (like with bonus spells) because it's always just key modifier/2 * caster level.

    If you do want a chart, the chart is on this page, scroll down for bonus power points by ability score.

    EDIT: This is also extremely important to the "Master Roshi" build I provided before, loosely based off Dragon Ball's master roshi (Dragon Ball being far more mundane than Dragon Ball Z), as his entire concept is based around using quite a lot of power; thus his excessive emphasis on Wisdom (Wisdom 22, which would have only been 18 if not for his age and +2 wisdom item). That gives him +3 PP per level, or +24 PP.


    When combining the monk with the psychic powers of the psychic warrior, some monk powers are quite redundant with available powers:

    Still mind - Still mind
    Slow fall - Catfall
    Wholeness of body - Body adjustment
    Abundant step - Dimension slide

    I'd prefer not to have an overlap between inherent monk powers and selectable psi powers.
    What do you think about replacing these with psionic bonus feats?


    Ashiel wrote:
    Psionic characters have PP equal to Base PP + (KeyMod/2). So a +4 Wisdom gives +2 PP / manifester level.

    Ah, that was the missing piece of information. Thanks!


    Eben TheQuiet wrote:
    Has anyone done a build based on the subtle, mind-over-body, hyper-aware warrior?

    I've been trying to think about this one. Do you have a literary, comic, or movie character in mind when you ask the question?


    Well I wanted to let everyone know that I've been experimenting with this as well. Can't ask others to help if I'm not willing, right? My younger brother recently rolled one of these monks as described in the original post, and built it around being an assassin. He's got a couple of monk weapons from the d20pfsrd.com (his main ones are the broadsword and kusari gama in case he needs reach). Last night, I ran the module Flight of the Red Raven for him and a friend of his. Both were 5th level, but it's a 4th level 3.5 game, so I figured it would roughly even out (and it did).

    My younger brother is ecstatic about the changes. He traditionally has not cared for monks, but now he says he may never play anything else again. He said it was a perfect balance of different things, and he felt like a "total BAMF" throughout the game, even when he was really sweating it. His friend who was spending the night had me help her roll a psychic warrior, because she wanted a "casting knight", and ended up being a warrior who popped the psionic equivalent of grease, debuffed, or use swarm of crystals to do short-ranged (but effective) blasting.

    They worked together exceptionally well. What follows is a summary of the 12 hour gaming marathon we have recently went through. I will write it in segments, in spoilers, as it contains some information about the encounters and bits of plot. My brother played Agustus, and his friend played Yudi.

    Azurestone:
    The adventure began in the town of Azurestone during a festival. The pair of them wandered about for a while taking in the sights. Having a bit of starting wealth for being 5th level left over, my brother purchased a few healing potions. His friend found out about the marksman competition, so she wanted to join, so both of them did. My brother, playing the psionic monk, attempted to cheat at the archery tournament by making his crossbow a +2 weapon during the competition; but only pulled 4th place anyway (his friend won first by a streak of fine luck).

    Both found that pretty fun, and then just wandered the town for a while. As part of the adventure, a few ne'er do wells came up and tried to distract them. A pair of ladies who wanted the two to come to a party with the at the tavern, who were out and about to organize a bit of a street brawl as a distraction for something else behind the scenes. The ladies slight of handed a wallet into Yudi's pocket, just in time for their associates to accuse them of theft and start a fight. Augustus and Yudi tried to make peace with them, but they had none of it.

    When they threatened his friend, Agustus used metaphysical weapon on his unarmed strikes and warned them to back off. When they started a brawl, Agustus won initiative and opened up with a flurry of blows at 1d8+5 damage and struck with both attacks, dealing 12/12 damage. "I'd like some pound cake!!"

    The second brawler threw a few quick boxing punches but was intimidated as his punches registered as love taps against Agustus' very respectable AC. Because she thought it was funny, his friend manifested inflict pain on the thug and gave him a -4 to hit and skills for a few rounds. Agustus flurried again and knocked the guy unconscious.

    The local authorities showed up, and Agustus (using his trait that gives him diplomacy as a class skill) explains to the officers the situation, and explained that the thugs seemed intent on fighting, but they would be alright because he wasn't trying to kill them. In fact, neither Agustus nor Yudi had drawn their weapons. The officers thanked them for their restraint against the (apparently) drunk fellows; and asked them to head to the inn.

    Later they discovered something important was stolen from the town and offered their services out of both a sense of nobility and for about 300 gp. Sweet deal, they figured. So they were off to their adventure. They purchased a pair of mwk tools (survival kits) to use during their journey, and didn't bother to get a guide (since Yudi had a +5 Wisdom and he a +3 Wisdom, plus the survival kits). Their journey was afoot.


    =================================================================
    Chasing the Thief:
    They got some horses and a few provisions and set out into the wilderness, following the trails and tracks as they went. Fortunately for them, the tracks were easy enough to find taking 10, and on horseback they made good time. During their travel, they encountered several random encounters; including 4 bears and 14 wolves (rolled 6+1 wolves both times, and 2 bears each time).

    The encounters were actually won pretty much by Yudi. In each case, she beat their initiatives and readied swarm of crystals, and hit the bears and wolves for 5d4 damage in a 15 ft. cone. Since this averaged to about 12-13 damage, it generally set the wolves and bears (who had between 13-19 hp) to fleeing. After exhausting her power more or less completely after a few random encounters, they made camp and rested at the end of the first, and then second, days.

    Eventually they came to a quarry where some gnomish folks started an avalanche trap of rock and snow to try and delay them and/or bury them. Agustus evaded the trap and burial with a good Reflex save and Evasion, while Yudi fled the path of the avalanche on a horse. Having avoided the hazard, Agustus ran down the gnomes and caught them, and tied them up, and brought them along for questioning.

    Later, they discovered the trail split, and they went to a fake camp, but had the gnomes responsible for the traps to guide them. They encountered a huge monstrous spider, but managed to put it down with Agustus avoidance-tanking it and a few rounds using his broadsword flurry, and Yudi using her 5d4 crystal swarm. He rolled a critical against the spider with his x3 broadsword and the end was nigh. They collected up a wand of dancing lights and then went back for the other trail.

    They crossed a river, and while doing so were shot at by some bugbears, and harassed by giant shark-like fish. Yudi had to scare the shark-fish away with her crystal swarm (reducing their hp enough to make them flee) while Agustus made his way to the other side, using his deflect arrows and high AC to close on the bugbears and defeat them. After killing the bugbears, he discovered from the gnomes why the thief stole the mcguffin, and then felt remorse for killing them; as he felt they didn't deserve it. He vowed to avoid any more of the outlaw band if he could help it.

    The party made their way to the outlaw camp, and parlayed with the outlaws. Explaining that the gnomes had told them why the mcguffin was stolen, they convinced the outlaws to let them pass in search for the thief, who they were now interested in helping. They were given a necklace to identify themselves as friends, and headed into the snowy mountains.


    =================================================================
    Outside the Prison:
    After resting up in the camp with the outlaws, the two set out for the thief. They were ambushed by 4 nasty wolf-like creatures with hooves who moved about on the snow. Outnumbered, they suffered heavy damage and fatigue against the breath weapons, which brought both nearly to death (bringing the monk to 10 hp and the warrior to around 30 hp), but Yudi used her crystal swarm several times to drive off three of the four, and left alone, the last one fled as well.

    Drinking the healing potions purchased before they left, they figured that they should press on. Unfortunately, they were caught by surprise by a medium sized white dragon while out in the snow. The dragon used flyby attack and breathed on them, which Agustus avoided via evasion, but Yudi was hurt badly. Realizing that the dragon would soon swoop back around, Yudi dropped to the ground to play dead, while Agustus used chameleon to raise his Stealth before hiding in the mist and snow. The white dragon didn't realize the ruse and landed, only to get a face full of crystal swarm, and the hidden Agustus jumping the dragon with his Broadsword.

    Agustus positioned himself between the dragon and Yudi, so that she could escape him without provoking attacks (providing her cover prevented the AoOs). She moved away and greased beneath the dragon, which caused him to fall prone. Agustus pounded on the dragon with his broadsword flurry every chance he got, while the -4 to hit for being prone made it difficult to impossible to strike Agustus while on the ground.

    Yudi then manifested crystal shard at full power, and pulled a critical on her ranged touch attack against the dragon, roll a 20, followed by another 20. The critical hit made her 5d6 crystal deal 10d6 damage instead, which hit the dragon for a whopping 30 damage (5 points below average damage actually, for a 10d6 crit). After another beating with the broadsword, the dragon ate the AoO and stood up, took the hit, and then flew away. The pair had won, barely, by tricking the dragon to land to eat the presumed dead Yudi. Had he remained in the air, they had little hope of overcoming him, as neither were exceptionally good with ranged weaponry.

    Both camped out again, enjoying the benefit of their cold weather outfits and winter blankets. They had made it far up into the mountains in only a few days, and had quite a bit of bear and wolf meat on hand, so they wanted to be prepared before heading into the unknown. After resting and recovering some of their hit points (Yudi's psicrystal aided their health recovery with Heal skill checks), they finally felt like they were well enough to try to push forward once again. This time, into the Jarl's Prison.


    =================================================================
    Inside the Prison + Why Do Psicrystals Lose?:
    Inside the prison, the pair wandered through the mists. Yudi played rock paper scissors with her psicrystal when Agustus was trying to find the way around. Yudi made a funny comment about why she always beats her psicrystal, worthy enough of being mentioned here.

    Yudi - "Do you know why a psion always beats her crystal at this game?"
    Agustus - "No, why? Empathy? Precognition?"
    Yudi - "They always choose rock."
    Agustus + GM - "...Hahahahahaha!"

    They explored a bit more, and caught sight of an apparition that might be the thief. Finding another rogue's dead body, they looted any useful stuff from him, and continued into the apparition's trap. The apparition cornered them, and turned out to be a sort of snow beast. The snow beast made for a bit of a rough spot, because his AC was pretty good, and Yudi was uncertain about using her powers on it. Agustus mostly fought it off, using his +2 broadsword flurry (via his metaphysical weapon power). Successfully tanking the creature, and the DR 10/magic bypassed, he managed to take down the snowbeast and be rewarded with a masterwork kukri the creature took off the dead rogue.

    In the dungeon, they encountered some mephits, whose 13 Hp was quickly dissolved by Yudi's 12.5 average crystal swarm damage, followed by a quick broadsword flurry.

    Later, they came across a small camp inside the prison with 4 people around. Agustus was diplomatic, and offered the hungry people a large quantity of their bear and wolf meats, which greatly improved relations. The people not only let them by without harm, but also showed them to the Jarl's lair, where his treasure was held.

    The pair went into the Jarl's lair, which was somewhat cut off by scalding hot springs around the size of a giant swimming pool. The ceiling of the giant room was about 50 ft. off the floor level. While Agustus could take 10 and scoot across the narrow rims around the pool of scalding water, Yudi was not so certain in her breastplate w/kilt armor. Coming up with a different plan, Agustus used his mystical wall-walk technique, and walked up the walls to the ceiling, holding her by her appendages, and slowly began walking across the ceiling towards the pillars in the center of the room, while Yudi dangled over the hot water below.

    While they were traveling 50 ft. above the near-boiling water, they were attacked by a water and steam mephit. Obviously fighting in this situation was a bit bad, and bot got scalded by the steam mephit's spell-like abilities, while the water mephit used its breath weapon. Crystal swarm saved the day here again, along with some carefully placed shurikens. They made their way to a nearby pillar and went down to the floor level, only to be attacked by an advanced dire weasel. A critical hit during a broadsword flurry threw the critter down unexpectedly fast (3d8+15 does that pretty well).


    =================================================================
    Of course it's safe to rest in the boss's treasure room!:
    Upon finding the room now clear of enemies, and many treasures abounding, they got the bright idea to rest in this room, since the scalding water might make it less likely for wandering monsters to show up. As it turned out, 2 hours into their rest, the Jarl shows up and a dialog ensues. Using an illusion, the Jarl places himself in a fine place for an ambush while invisible, while two steam mephits seem to patrol with his illusion. He speaks to the party through the illusion, and tries to trick them into helping him find the mcguffin, while planning to betray them later. Agustus has a high Sense Motive and detects the Jarl is full of it, and refuses to aid him; but doesn't back down against the intimidating power of his illusion (who appears to have lightning arcing off of his body like a SSJ3 or something).

    Yudi opens up with a crystal swarm, rolling a massive 18 damage, and takes out both mephits immediately; but the Jarl seems completely unharmed by the AoE, which actually does intimidate them a bit (as neither realized it was an illusion). Now the players were afraid they had basically picked a very bad fight, and were about to die. In fact, Agustus' player was suggesting that Yudi grab him and access his powers and manifest his Stealth-enhancing power herself, and try to flee while he held off the Jarl so she could escape; believing that at least she could find the mcguffin and get out alive.

    However, both ended up fighting the Jarl, who appeared and began fighting them with his massive warhammer. Thinking quickly, Yudi used inflict pain to give him a -4 to hit for 5 rounds, which basically eliminated his ability to reliably hit Agustus and made it hard to hit her as well. Meanwhile, Agustus kept pouring on the broadswords, while she used Swarm of Crystals for her last time (she no longer had enough PP to use it, having used it 3 times now, and burning 3 points on her pain power). While he and Agustus battled, she grabbed one of the masterwork swords in his treasure horde and joined the fray, trying to flank the Djinn and she got some good hits in as well.

    When he was critically injured, he took a 5 ft. step back and turned invisible. My brother wasn't sure if he had vanished or was a puppet of the true Djinn (the illusion, but he didn't know that) who appeared to be watching the battle carefully (but was just not being manipulated so it was cycling over the last beard-stroking animation repeatedly :P), but decided to try one of my own old tricks, and pulled a bag of crushed chalk and scattered it grenade-like weapon style; revealing the invisible djinn who was now covered in chalk. Curses, foiled by 1 gp!

    The djinn popped a cure serious wounds potion and got ready for round 2, with about half his life restored. Instead of retreat, both Agustus and Yudi decided to press the attack even more ferociously than they had before. More or less ignoring their own safety at this point, they gave the Jarl no real room to breath. Yudi tossed the last of her power into a 2d6 crystal but missed, only for the Jarl to attempt invisibility one more time; figuring "What are the chances he would have another bag of chalk?"

    The answer is "Pretty good, actually" and he got re-chalked and then Yudi charged through his AoO, and cut him down with the mwk longsword found in his treasure horde. Quite exhausted in HP and PP, they celebrated their victory and Agustus sliced off the head of the Jarl, to be a trophy and sign of their dominance over the lord of this prison, in case his minions want to get uppity. They rested once more in the treasure room, now safe from the Jarl's return. This was a 15 minute work day well earned (though technically not a true 15-day since they were technically interrupted from their previous attempts at rest after some other battles).

    After recovering about 10 HP from resting + heal checks, and recovering the PP again (their most valuable resource in terms of keeping their options going), the two set out again to find the thief and the mcguffin.


    =================================================================
    Ok, so maybe it wasn't, but we won, right?:
    Having defeated the Jarl, rested for real this time, and headed back into the maze of tunnels, they encountered the thief's love, and rescued her from a Yeti. Interestingly, Agustus didn't want to hurt the Yeti if he could help it and tried speaking to it. Turns out Yeti are smart (9 Int even) and speak common! So the yeti tells him how hungry he is, and Agustus gives the Yeti their food supplies and tells the Yeti they are going to find a way out; and convinces the Neutral-aligned Yeti to come with them, in search of freedom from the planar prison.

    Further along still, the party recruits the thief's girlfriend and a wounded fighter, and then returns to the makeshift village and shows the prisoners that the Jarl has been slain by their hands, and collects all the villagers up to follow them to a potential exit. If they can find the mcguffin, they should be able to escape. So they travel on with the sorcerer girlfriend, a wounded fighter, 15 less starving warriors, a Yeti, and a partridge in a pear tree.

    Finally, they find the Red Raven in a bit of a spot, as he has been captured by an ogre and the mcguffin has been taken. However, the remaining minions of the Jarl are controlling undead who are trying to overrun the ogre and his human slaves. The party assaults the line of zombies, and breaks through after a few rounds. Then they run over the ogre in their path, and then through the other side of zombies, in a big tactical maneuver that looked like someone stomping face in Starcraft. They displayed the Jarl's head and got the ogre's slaves to join them; collected the Mcguffin; freed the Red Raven; and then spent about half an hour taking 20 on a Spellcraft to get the exit to open with the mcguffin. Finally, free, the planar portal collapsed behind them and they were heroes for rescuing everyone (after they had everyone help carry all the loot out of course!).

    Thanked by the Red Raven, they decided not to turn him in, because he wasn't trying to steal for profit but to save his friends. They went back to town, and Agustus drank an Elixer of Diplomacy and tried to soften the situation to the townsfolk, and only made things better for the Red Raven in the process. They received a letter, and a box, thanking them for giving the couple a new lease on life, and the torn and tattered cape of the Red Raven as a special thank you gift; since he decided to retire - at least for a while.


    The two earned enough XP/treasure to boost them up to around 8th level. The next adventure they're going on will be in the desert instead, with Pheroahs and Pyramids. Can our intrepid monk and psychic warrior keep this up? Nearly getting killed once or twice was enough, but can they brave the dangers that a 6th or even 8th level adventure may bring!?

    Find out next time on Psionic Monks Z. :P


    Liam ap Thalwig wrote:

    When combining the monk with the psychic powers of the psychic warrior, some monk powers are quite redundant with available powers:

    Still mind - Still mind
    Slow fall - Catfall
    Wholeness of body - Body adjustment
    Abundant step - Dimension slide

    I'd prefer not to have an overlap between inherent monk powers and selectable psi powers.
    What do you think about replacing these with psionic bonus feats?

    Agreed, actually. I plan to tweak it a bit once everyone gets the basics tried. Replacing them with psionic bonus feats would probably be a good fix; or giving them the choice of certain thematic powers to add to their list. Feel free to try either.


    Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

    Doooooooot.


    Makhno wrote:
    Furthermore, I am not aware of any well-known fictional fantasy setting that works like this, especially among those from which D&D draws its tropes. (I am open to being corrected on this one, though. I've read a good bit of fantasy fiction, but by no means most or all of it.)

    Niven, Larry. The Magic Goes Away; "What Good is a Glass Dagger?"; "Not Long Before the End"; et al. Expanded series also involves contributions by Poul Anderson, Fred Saberhagen, Roger Zelazny, et al., and Jerry Pournelle's The Burning City and The Burning Tower.


    Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
    Makhno wrote:
    In fact, most fantasy settings that I've encountered take as the base assumption that the world is basically like our world; same physical laws, humans have the same default capabilities. Magic is something extraneous, something "unnatural" (though not necessarily in a bad way), that allows one to transcend physical laws. And most fantasy settings include the "non-magical but nonetheless badass" character archetype. D&D has historically been exactly like this. All D&D fighters that I've seen depicted in any sort of flavor text or D&D fiction are people with no magic powers. Are they very, very tough and skilled in combat? Absolutely. Superhumanly so, sometimes. But magic? I don't know of any D&D source that depicts fighters as possessing any sort of actual magic — where "magic" is defined as "whatever sort of power it is, that wizards and clerics and other spellcasters draw on, that allows them to transcend physical laws, which otherwise, by default, are just the same as they are in the real world."

    Magic, no, but skill and luck? Those things are magical.

    The fighter falling off the edge of the Grand Canyon skids down the steep slopes, breaks his call on a withered tree and finally lands in a pile of sand at the bottom. Inhumanly lucky, but plausible (hey, people have survived falls from 20,000 feet up). The fighter's magic is he can pull this off regularly.

    That's how I view it, anyway.


    Dabbler wrote:
    Magic, no, but skill and luck? Those things are magical. The fighter falling off the edge of the Grand Canyon skids down the steep slopes, breaks his call on a withered tree and finally lands in a pile of sand at the bottom. Inhumanly lucky, but plausible (hey, people have survived falls from 20,000 feet up). The fighter's magic is he can pull this off regularly. That's how I view it, anyway.

    Look, it doesn't matter if you view it as godlike skill or magic, the point is that holding a 20th level fighter to what a normal Earth-standard human can do is destructive to the game. If that's what you want to play -- a game in which casters are gods compared to equal-level fighters who serve as glorified caddies to them -- something like Jack Vance's Lyonesse trilogy -- then Ars Magica is a good choice.

    But if we cap a 20th level monk's abilities at what Jackie Chan can do in real life? In D&D? That's absurd. Just tell martial characters they can't advance beyond 4th level, if that's what you want to do.


    Kirth Gersen wrote:
    Makhno wrote:
    Furthermore, I am not aware of any well-known fictional fantasy setting that works like this, especially among those from which D&D draws its tropes. (I am open to being corrected on this one, though. I've read a good bit of fantasy fiction, but by no means most or all of it.)
    Niven, Larry. The Magic Goes Away; "What Good is a Glass Dagger?"; "Not Long Before the End"; et al. Expanded series also involves contributions by Poul Anderson, Fred Saberhagen, Roger Zelazny, et al., and Jerry Pournelle's The Burning City and The Burning Tower.

    Thank you, I will definitely check those out. As I said, it is an interesting concept.

    You will agree, though, that this is not the norm in fantasy settings, yes? It isn't something we can take as the default — that was my point.

    Kirth Gersen wrote:

    Look, it doesn't matter if you view it as godlike skill or magic, the point is that holding a 20th level fighter to what a normal Earth-standard human can do is destructive to the game. If that's what you want to play -- a game in which casters are gods compared to equal-level fighters who serve as glorified caddies to them -- something like Jack Vance's Lyonesse trilogy -- then Ars Magica is a good choice.

    But if we cap a 20th level monk's abilities at what Jackie Chan can do in real life? In D&D? That's absurd. Just tell martial characters they can't advance beyond 4th level, if that's what you want to do.

    I agree entirely. Linear Fighters, Quadratic Wizards is a trope which detracts from fun. The "badass normal" fighter does need to actually be badass; if he's a "regular normal" then that's boring and there's no reason to play him.

    There are two* issues, though:

    1. Flavor of superhuman abilities matters; and by "flavor" I don't just mean "fluff", I mean game mechanics that materially affect the feel of the class and the experience of playing him. Examples:

    • If the fighter is so strong that he can punch through a solid stone door, that's one thing.

    • If he can throw fireballs by yelling "Hadoken", that's another thing entirely.

    • If the fighter can run really fast and jump really high, that's one thing.

    • If he can fly by his own power, that's another thing entirely.

    • If the fighter can take an absurd amount of punishment without dying — including a fireball to the face and a fall into the Grand Canyon — that's one thing.

    • If he gets his arm chopped off, holds the arm to the stump and it regenerates on its own, that is another thing entirely.

    In short, if playing the fighter feels like playing a hero from Greek myth, or John McClane, or any character on the Badass Normal trope page that is there due to martial/personal skill rather than technology or cunning, that is one thing.

    If playing the fighter feels like playing a wizard with different fluff, or Cyclops/Green Lantern/other superhero who can fly and shoot laster beams from their eyes, that is another thing entirely.

    The former sort archetype — the guy/gal who really, genuinely does not have any actual magic powers, but nonetheless is badass, even beyond the capabilities of real-world humans — is an actual fantasy trope (see my TV Tropes link for all the examples you could ask for); and it's one which is near and dear to the hearts of many people who play D&D/PF, including myself. It would be a shame if there were no way to represent such a character in the ruleset.

    *The other issue is predictability/relatability, but that's for another post.

    P.S. There of course should be characters who are so badass that they yell "Hadoken" and throw fireballs, or step through gaps in reality, or what have you. As I said, I love Ashiel's idea. I just object to the notion that in this crazy magic-filled world our characters live in, all characters are somehow saturated with actual magic, and therefore we are fully justified in adding overtly magic powers (e.g. spellcasting) to all classes, like someone's "let's give the following casting progressions to all classes in the game" idea earlier in the thread.


    1 person marked this as a favorite.
    Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

    You know how I see fighters? Like Bruce Willis in the Die Hard movies: he gets battered to hell and back, but he keeps coming. How many people in real life can be blown up, shot, cut up and battered like him and survive, let alone keep coming? yet he does. THAT'S my kind of fighter.

    Edit: Back on subject, I see no reason for monks not to have thematic supernatural abilities.


    Dabbler wrote:

    You know how I see fighters? Like Bruce Willis in the Die Hard movies: he gets battered to hell and back, but he keeps coming. How many people in real life can be blown up, shot, cut up and battered like him and survive, let alone keep coming? yet he does. THAT'S my kind of fighter.

    Edit: Back on subject, I see no reason for monks not to have thematic supernatural abilities.

    Agreed x2.

    51 to 100 of 161 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | next > last >>
    Paizo / Messageboards / Paizo Publishing / Pathfinder® / Pathfinder RPG / Suggestions/House Rules/Homebrew / A Favor Asked of Monk Fans - For Science! All Messageboards

    Want to post a reply? Sign in.

    ©2002–2014 Paizo Inc.®. Need help? Email customer.service@paizo.com or call 425-250-0800 during our business hours: Monday–Friday, 10 AM–5 PM Pacific Time. View our privacy policy. Paizo Inc., Paizo, the Paizo golem logo, Pathfinder, the Pathfinder logo, Pathfinder Society, GameMastery, and Planet Stories are registered trademarks of Paizo Inc., and Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Pathfinder Adventure Path, Pathfinder Adventure Card Game, Pathfinder Player Companion, Pathfinder Modules, Pathfinder Tales, Pathfinder Battles, Pathfinder Online, PaizoCon, RPG Superstar, The Golem's Got It, Titanic Games, the Titanic logo, and the Planet Stories planet logo are trademarks of Paizo Inc. Dungeons & Dragons, Dragon, Dungeon, and Polyhedron are registered trademarks of Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc., and have been used by Paizo Inc. under license. Most product names are trademarks owned or used under license by the companies that publish those products; use of such names without mention of trademark status should not be construed as a challenge to such status.