I've never looked very much at the Bard class, and most people I know and play with seem to look down upon it. Give me reasons to roll a bard. GO!
Bards are awesome. They are really good with skills. They make the party better with buffs, and they are decent in a fight. Certain archetypes can also replace the rogue.
What is it that people don't like about them? I am thinking some of it might be misinformation.
Check this out.
Bards can also lay down damage comparable to a fighter if they use a bow. I have never made bard using a two-handed weapon, but I am sure they won't do to badly.
I only recall the Bard builds I saw Treantmonk make ages ago.
Anyone have any ideas on how to optimize a Bard (or as the haters call it, cheesing) and what kind of roles could it fill in a party? And no, I do not want to hear it from people who have never optimized a Bard. I've heard the "traditional" builds a million times, and buffs can be done by a Cleric too.
Have any of you actually played bard or is this theoretical?
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Have any of you actually played bard or is this theoretical?
All in theory for me as I am the GM 90% of the time.
Here is a level 1 Gnome Sandman I built that I would love to try out.
Male Gnome Bard (Sandman) 1
CN Small Humanoid (Gnome)
Hero Points 1
Init +4; Senses Low-Light Vision; Perception +6
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DEFENSE
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AC 13, touch 13, flat-footed 11. . (+2 Dex, +1 size)
hp 10 (1d8+1)
Fort +1, Ref +4, Will +2
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OFFENSE
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Spd 20 ft.
Special Attacks Bardic Performance (standard action) (7 rounds/day, Bardic Performance: Countersong, Bardic Performance: Distraction, Bardic Performance: Fascinate (DC 13)
Spell-Like Abilities Dancing Lights (1/day), Ghost Sound (1/day), Prestidigitation (1/day), Speak with Animals (1/day)
Bard (Sandman) Spells Known (CL 1, +0 melee touch, +3 ranged touch):
1 (2/day) Silent Image (DC 15), Disguise Self (DC 15)
0 (at will) Haunted Fey Aspect (DC 14), Lullaby (DC 13), Ghost Sound (DC 14), Dancing Lights
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STATISTICS
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Str 8, Dex 15, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 16
Base Atk +0; CMB -2; CMD 10
Feats Bard Weapon Proficiencies, Effortless Trickery
Traits Reactionary, Trickster
Skills Acrobatics +6, Bluff +8, Fly +4, Knowledge (Arcana) +7, Perception +6, Sleight of Hand +7, Spellcraft +5, Stealth +11
Languages Common, Draconic, Gnome, Sylvan
SQ Bardic Performance: Stealspell (DC 13) (Su), Eternal Hope (1/day), Gnome Magic, Hero Points (1), Illusion Resistance, Master of Deception +1 (Ex)
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Bardic Performance (standard action) (7 rounds/day) Your performances can create magical effects.
Bardic Performance: Countersong (Su) Counter magical effects that depend on sound.
Bardic Performance: Distraction (Su) Counter magical effects that depend on sight.
Bardic Performance: Fascinate (DC 13) (Su) One or more creatures becomes fascinated with you.
Bardic Performance: Stealspell (DC 13) (Su) Touch attack while performing can steal the ability to cast chosen or random spells.
Dancing Lights (1/day) (Sp) With Charisma 11+, cast Dancing Lights once per day.
Effortless Trickery Maintain concentration on 1 illusion spell per rd as a swift action.
Eternal Hope (1/day) +2 save vs. fear and despair. 1/day, reroll a 1 rolled on 1d20.
Ghost Sound (1/day) (Sp) With Charisma 11+, cast Ghost Sound once per day.
Gnome Magic +1 to the save DC of all illusions spells you cast.
Hero Points (1) Hero Points can be spent at any time to grant a variety of bonuses.
Illusion Resistance +2 racial bonus to saves against illusions.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Master of Deception +1 (Ex) You add half your bard level to Bluff, Sleight of Hand, and Stealth checks.
Prestidigitation (1/day) (Sp) With Charisma 11+, cast Prestidigitation once per day.
Speak with Animals (1/day) (Sp) Speak with Animals 1/day.
Trickster +1 trait bon to CL for duration, range, and area of illusion spells.
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That actually sounds alright. I played an illusionist in OSRIC(AD&D) and he could do some fun stuff. Ok second round of questions. What is the best archetype/build for a Bard?
Depends on what you want from the character. You can do just about anything except primary damage dealer (or focused healer) with a Bard, and a controller/spellcaster Magician Bard is goona look a lot different from an in-your-face melee Bard, which will lok a lot differentr from an archer Bard, which will look a lot different from a Rogue-replacement Archaeologist/Sandman Bard.
Bards, as a Class, are really just awesome in almost every way. They're pretty good combatants, pretty good conroller-spellcasters (though it behooves you to focus on one of those two things), the best party buffing characters in the game even sans spells (and vastly better at that with spells), and the single best class with regards to skills, especially Knowledge skills. By 14th level it's entirely possible for an Int 10 Bard to have 9 skills effectively maxed. If he's Int 12 aqnd human, make that 11.
And any of those that are Knowledge skills will have an extra +7 on top of all other bonuses, and he'll be able to take 10 on them all day, and get a free 20 on them several times a day.
The downside? There's really not one, beyond not being the biggest damage dealer ever, needing to stick to light armor, and having the limited spell-list all spontaneous casters deal with. That's really it in terms of down sides. Being a Bard is cool.
Conceptually, Bards (even the kinds who need Performance, which not all of the Archetypes do) do not need to be anything remotely silly. They can be everything from an aristocratic duelist with Perorm (Oratory) to a dervish dancing holy madman with Perform (Dance), to a nordic Skald singing war chants as he slaughters men with an axe and Perform (Sing), to a witty swashbuckler who insults his opponents with Perform (Comedy), to a hard bitten mercenary with a drill sergeant's attitude and a million war-stories with Perform (Oratory). Do any of those necessarily sound silly or less-than-cool? Maybe. Do all of them sound that way? I doubt it.
Bards are pretty awesome. They are wonderfully flexible and can always fill in when the party is in a tight spot. You can also go and specialize, becoming almost as dangerous in dealing damage as a martial class for example.
They have full caster level, so arcane blast, crafting etc. all works 100% as good as for wizards or others.
Bards have some archetypes with unique abilities, such as the magician (use your own caster level for wands! set the DCs on them with YOUR DC!), geisha (long lasting prebuff), sandman (steal/deny stuff), archaeologist (luck bonuses, quick trapfinding) etc.
They also offer a great basic frame to enter prestige classes like the dragon disciple or arcane archer without sacrificing a lot of BAB.
They cast in light armor, arcane duelist even in heavy armor, without ASF.
Their abilities make others better or opponents worse. Their spell-list allows you to be a good counterspeller (dispel magic), ...
Bards are really cool. I have played one in a campaign for 1.5 years, and all of the players repeatedly felt that
a) I could do everyting
b) I was the most powerful character
That party included a well-played paladin, wizard and battle sorcerer.
So this is from real experience :-)
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Have any of you actually played bard or is this theoretical?
I played a vanilla Bard from 4th to 15th level in an Evil campaign (a LE Drow nobleman* with ambitions beyond his expected gender role, who eventually won himself a kingdom. Of Drow). Lots of fun mechanically and thematically. Buffing the Antipaladin resulted in so much ridiculous damage, as did the strategic use of Glitterdust at early levels. Ah, good times. Not an optimized character by any means (used Weapon Finesse with a Rapier before the agile weapon property existed), but both fun and effective nevertheless.
I've also played another Bard or two, though not for any real length of time. I have also seen Bards played a fair amount. Indeed, there's an Archaeologist Bard in the Pathfinder game I'm currently running.
*We weren't using the Drow Noble race, he was just a Drow from a rich aristocratic family.
All in theory for me as I am the GM 90% of the time.
Here is a level 1 Gnome Sandman I built that I would love to try out.
** spoiler omitted **...
If you wouldnt mind dropping the CN for something a little less, uh, distracting I have a campaign on the recruitment board.
Re: Deadman and Sanga(btw I wanna make a Cool Runnings joke there.)
That sounds epic. I think I'd like more of a controller/spellcaster. Although I've never played rogue so Archaeologist would be interesting. Any other advice?
I'm playing a base bard that is a bit more on the melee side. His Perform (Comedy) ends up being insult humor against the enemies. He's not silly but instead is this scathing warrior that plays the guitar to charm the ladies, but stabs things when he needs to. I took a lot of cues from Once Upon a Time in Mexico. I took Dodge and Arcane Strike as my feats and am using a shield and longsword (switching to buckler to cast more). It helps me stay alive and Arcane Strike + Bardic Performance helps you do comparable damage.
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Re: Deadman and Sanga(btw I wanna make a Cool Runnings joke there.)
That sounds epic. I think I'd like more of a controller/spellcaster. Although I've never played rogue so Archaeologist would be interesting. Any other advice?
Beyond the obvious (ie: have a high casting stat, get good armor, etc)?
1. Have something to do when you aren't casting spells. Your spells can, if you focus on them, be close to as effective as a Wizard or Sorcerer's, but they aren't as numerous per day, nor do you have some neat Level 1 power to throw at people when you don't want to use one. So you need an actual weapon to use when it's not worth it to burn a spell slot. Exactly what it is is up to you, but have one and put at least a bit of effort (a stat belt, magic weapon, and a few Feats) into being decent with it.
2. Look at the various Archetpes. Many are good in different ways for the role or roles you're looking for. Examine carefully what you're giving up for the cool stuff in them. Inspire Courage and Versatile Performance are both really good, and both often removed. As is Bardic Knowledge if you wish to actually be a master of knowledge skills.
3. Check with your GM if he'll let you reasign skill points when you get a new Versatile Performance (something I'd highly reccomend, as does James Jacobs). If they won't (as in PFS), plan your skills very carefully, so as not to haveliterally wasted skill ranks. All assuming you have it, of course.
4. If you want to optimize, read Treantmonk's guide. It's corebook only, but the basic advice is still good. Indeed, I stole point #1 from him, more-or-less entirely.
Thanks alot, this is gonna be fun.
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My first PFSP character is a bard. I played a bard in my home game council of thieves game.
Bards can fill allot of roles if made well. Or none if you don't put some though in how to make one.
You do not need to do range to put out good damage. You do not even need a two handed weapon. Inspire courage will add more damage to the party then any other single ability or spell. Both of my bard where set up Dex base two weapon fighting. The reason to make a bard Dex base is not for your damage. It is to bump up your initiative mod. So you can put your self at the front of the initiative. And start your inspire courage, (and haste after level 7) before the other characters go.
Both bards I made to cover many positions in the party. Not as good as having some one of that class. They could fill the role when needed.
Divine Caster : Invest in some wands and your UMD.
Arcane Caster : You will not have the spell DC. For offensive spells but you have a tone of buffing, and utility spells.
Melee : You are not going to be a heavy hitter with two weapon fighting. With your inspire courage it's damage is added to both weapons. Two Handed weapons are good as well just not something I have done.
Range : With one feet you can make your self a switch hitter. Quick Draw will let you change weapons with out braking stride. A good composite short bow with a Star mod on it. And you will do fine.
Party Face : With the use of vestal performance at levels 2, and 6. Oratory (Diplomacy/Sense Motive), and Act (Bluff/Disguise). What more do you really need? Other then some patents in pouting points in to your preform skills to make them pay off later.
Rogue : Vagabond Child trait. Sorry rogue I now have disable device as a class skill.
Examine carefully what you're giving up for the cool stuff in them. Inspire Courage and Versatile Performance are both really good, and both often removed. As is Bardic Knowledge if you wish to actually be a master of knowledge skills.
+1 ^^
@Deadmanwalking: I am loving all your points, you have some awesome insight on Bards! :)
Overall, I started playing a Bard as a plot device, and have ended up loving it! I have been absolutely essential to our party in non-combat situations. Performing for free lodging, having random knowledge skills, cadging informations from NPC's, raising the party's overall reputation... all things a Bard excells at!
In combat, the buffs, while not unique to Bards, amp up the party and free up other spell casters for their more specialized roles. I've found that I can fill the role of darting around a combat, organizing tactics, throwing buffs or the odd healing spell, and then interpose myself between a baddie and our Wizard when necessary. It's a great situation to be able to size up how a combat is going, and then shore up whichever role needs support at that particular moment!
In terms of performances, I started with Oratory and an Instrument skill (for the +2 masterwork instrument bonus), but the advantage to Dance (or another physical-based skill) is that it allows Bardic Performance when silenced. Overall, the only reason to have a Bard who is a capering fool is if you want to play him/her that way!
Arcane strike affects all your weapons, so a bard can use thrown weapons better than most, due to full caster level and 3/4 BAB. Add buffs and quickdraw and you become a very flexible cleanup fighter, able to finish off wounded and hard to reach foes before they can flee, or intercept mobile monsters or hammer on weaknesses. A good spell selection will work wonders, and Ultimate Magic helps there.
Bards get some spells early, mostly charms and enchantments.
Silence + combat ability + skill points = mage killing assassin
Bards are fun. They're not great if you want to contribute personally to a fight but they can certainly support the rest of the party. If your campaign is very combat intensive I think I'd discourage it, I played one in Rise of the Runelords and half way through the third module I changed to a fighter because (as it was being run) there was just no opportunity to use all my social skills. If your GM is talking/skill oriented then a bard is likely to be able to be a key player. The biggest problem with them is that they haven't got enough skill points. They have considerably more class skills than most other classes (including all the knowledges which even with Bardic knowledge you need to put points into, plus at least two perform skills) and have substantial stat-commitment so Int is likely to be moderate at best. I think I'd discourage taking Cure Light Wounds even though at first sight it looks snacky. If you take it, you'll be expected to use it and you don't get many spells as it is. Prestidigitation is a must as it ensures you look great all the time and can take advantage of your excellent charisma.
The last bard who was in my party just stood around, flanked things, and used inspire courage. kinda helpful, but he never dealt any notable amount of damage.
Kind of have to build for damage. If you get Arcane Strike and Power Attack, you can lay down the smack with a longsword two handedly. Add in Inspire Courage as well, which you can do without an instrument (ie Oratory, Dancing, etc), and you help not only yourself but your allies too. Just be careful since you would be a skirmisher, not a frontline brick.
My bard at level one has a 16 strength and Arcane Strike. With Inspire Courage on, that gets be about +8 damage to your attacks (+4 from two handing Longsword, 1 from Arcane Strike, Power attack, and Inspire Courage).
People who look down on it haven't seen the PF bard.
The PF bard is the best skill user in the game. Far better than the rogue if they even try a little bit.
They make everyone more awesome, increasing the powerlevel of the party as a whole.
They have a great spell list that can be "clutch", as the kids say these days. Really need that demon to die right now, but the paladin's smite evil attack missed? Gallant Inspiration. Now that you have +8 to hit, does the attack connect?
You can still deal some very nice damage. Just be high strength, and two-hand a weapon. Longswords work. No one said you had to be Froofy McDanceAroundAndBeUseless. That's the rogue's job.
Go high strength, 14 Cha. If you're supporting and buffing, you don't need those other things.
They sing and dance and a generally gay.
I'm sold.
Bards are awesome and are a great dip class for anyone who needs skills but has a 2+INT class. Two levels of Bard gives you a ridiculous amount of effective skill points if you choose performance wisely, a handful of useful spells if your CHA is 11 or higher, a buff you can use that will stack with many other buffs, and only loses you one point of BAB if that. There are archetypes that work with almost any theme. If you're a spellcaster, taking the magical knack trait will keep you from losing caster level.
Re: Deadman and Sanga(btw I wanna make a Cool Runnings joke there.)
That sounds epic. I think I'd like more of a controller/spellcaster. Although I've never played rogue so Archaeologist would be interesting. Any other advice?
What kind of cool runnings joke? I have only been subject to a je about a supposed linkage to a certain similar named Indian town...;-P
About the idea of a controller/spellcaster and advice: What kind of controller do you want to be? Do you want to be
A) the type that controls the actions of other, or
B) the type that interfers with the plans of others, spoils their plan for the group?
Type A you could play with an archaeologist. He basically only focuses on himself with his performances and is thus one of the most "selfish" bard types. However, his spells for debuffing (calm emotions, dispel magic etc.) and controling others (grease, glitterdust etc.) are fully available. Even better would be court bard whose satire performance provides penalties to enemy attack and damage rolls. Or sandman to prevent others from casting spells.
The difficulty of such a kind of bard is that you have to work on getting the DCs on your spells as high as possible. You will have to specialize, possibly take spell focus and other feats to make sure it's difficult for others.
Type B is much easier to do and does not require high DCs. It basically is stacked with performances and spells that assist others: Remove conditions, has the means to basically immediately remove conditions, possibly on the spot. You would choose performances like inspire courage, spells like saving finale, dispel magic, (reach) invisibility to get others out of a tight spot, dimension door to get yourself and friends away when you have to, feather step to preserve 5ft-step ability in difficult terrain, break enchantment to save your buddy from really nasty effects, greater dispel magic, some cure spells (keep them going)...
Pretty much all archetypes an be used for this - be it vanilla, street performer, arcane duelist, animal speaker...
Generally I would advise to keep some flexibility, do not focus too much on the spellcasting. The physical combat prowess built into the bard gives you options when you cannot use spells effectively or hae run out of them :-)
I removed an offensive post and a bunch of replies to it.
I'm looking to make a new character for a group. I DM this group but want a character I can play some times as well, also plan on letting another player DM sometimes. This character will also be an extra character when we have extra players for the night (we have a few players who could show up).
I don't want to be a damage dealer nor do I want it to be a healer. I want to help the other characters shine and have fun. I esp want to help the barbarian in the group who is playing for the first time and has sucky attack rolls so far. I want to help in combat, but I don't want to be the star (at least not obviously).
Right now we only have access to core and advanced players handbooks. Hopefully I can buy other books soon, but not viable for this character yet.
At this point the whip using tripper/controller has really stood out to me. But, it seems that any class can do the same thing with the whip. Bard class kind of feels added on to this character. What other skills, spells, feats, etc should I be looking at to make this character flow as a bard?
Also I love the spell grease, so that helps.
Level 7 opening round:
Move action: Inspire Courage for +2 to hit, damage and saves vs Fear
Standard action: Good Hope for +2 to hit, damage, saves, ability and skill checks. Or Haste for +1 attack, +1 to hit, AC, Reflex.
Everyone loves the bard for a reason.
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A good many people look down on Bards because they are a support class. They don't look at the fact that you make everyone else better at what they do, those types of people want the bard to be able to do everything is does and do lots of damage but that's not what the Bard was designed for. Your main job is not direct confrontation but to buff and support.
Have any of you actually played bard or is this theoretical?
I have GM'd for 2 bards, and used one. This is experience talking. :)
Have any of you actually played bard or is this theoretical?
I am currently playing one in a Jade Regent game I'm in. I do decent damage and buff my party to do better.
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A good many people look down on Bards because they are a support class. They don't look at the fact that you make everyone else better at what they do, those types of people want the bard to be able to do everything is does and do lots of damage but that's not what the Bard was designed for. Your main job is not direct confrontation but to buff and support.
My bard above DOES a lot of damage.
Every round, he does 4 damage every time someone else hits an enemy. If there's 5 attacks coming from your side every round, you do 20 damage every round, on top of everything else you do. And 5 is a pretty conservative estimate. If there is a ranger with rapid/many shot, a dual-wielder, a shape-shifting druid with a companion, and so on, odds are that there are closer to 10 attacks coming from your side.
Not to mention access to some premium battlefield control spells like Confusion, Slow and Glitterdust, that can win a fight in the first few rounds.
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The last bard who was in my party just stood around, flanked things, and used inspire courage. kinda helpful, but he never dealt any notable amount of damage.
Did you count the extra damage the rest of the party did thanks to inspire courage? That flat bonus to damage came from the bard. Any attacks that would have missed without the to-hit bonus came from the bard.
