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Superstition question (my Search-fu sucks)


Rules Questions


Superstition RAW:

The barbarian gains a +2 morale bonus on saving throws made to resist spells, supernatural abilities, and spell-like abilities. This bonus increases by +1 for every 4 levels the barbarian has attained. While raging, the barbarian cannot be a willing target of any spell and must make saving throws to resist all spells, even those cast by allies.

Am I to read this as the benefit is always applicable while the penalty is applicable only when raging?

I'm working on a Dragon Disciple - it will either be a Human Paladin 2/Sorcerer 10/Dragon Disciple 8 or a Half-Orc Barbarian 2/Sorcerer 10/Dragon Disciple 8. The first two levels will be the melee levels and I'm basically weighing their various strengths, so the effectiveness of that one Rage Power will be huge.


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Rage Powers (Ex)

As a barbarian gains levels, she learns to use her rage in new ways. Starting at 2nd level, a barbarian gains a rage power. She gains another rage power for every two levels of barbarian attained after 2nd level. A barbarian gains the benefits of rage powers only while raging, and some of these powers require the barbarian to take an action first. Unless otherwise noted, a barbarian cannot select an individual power more than once.

So you have to be raging to gain the benefits of superstition.


Mercurial wrote:

Superstition RAW:

The barbarian gains a +2 morale bonus on saving throws made to resist spells, supernatural abilities, and spell-like abilities. This bonus increases by +1 for every 4 levels the barbarian has attained. While raging, the barbarian cannot be a willing target of any spell and must make saving throws to resist all spells, even those cast by allies.

Am I to read this as the benefit is always applicable while the penalty is applicable only when raging?

I'm working on a Dragon Disciple - it will either be a Human Paladin 2/Sorcerer 10/Dragon Disciple 8 or a Half-Orc Barbarian/Sorcerer 10/Dragon Disciple 8. The first two levels will be the melee levels and I'm basically weighing their various strengths, so the effectiveness of that one Rage Power will be huge.

That's the way we played it. No rage, no bonus. Playing as a straight human barbarian that bonus can get huge. The barbarian would be unstoppable if it worked all of the time.


Thanks for the clarification - I admit I'm not too familiar with Barbarians and splashing one is something new for me.


With that cleared up, I feel the need to state that every DM should houserule either Superstition or Rage itself to not be morale bonuses. Otherwise superstition's will save bonus will overlap and not stack with the bonus from raging, which is stupid.


Superstition applies to all spells, the rage save applys only to will saves.

Andoran

StreamOfTheSky wrote:
With that cleared up, I feel the need to state that every DM should houserule either Superstition or Rage itself to not be morale bonuses. Otherwise superstition's will save bonus will overlap and not stack with the bonus from raging, which is stupid.

It's already a great power why make it any better?

Indomitable will it untyped to that stacks and the bonus to CON from raging boosts the fort save (Morale bonus to CON is not a Moral bonus to Fort they stack). Take the human favored class option and you can have +11 to all saves at 16th level.

With base saves of 10/5/5 and a cloak +5 thats:
Fort: +26
Ref: +17(22 v. Trap)
Will: +17(21 v. ench.)

This does not include ability mods, luck, competence, circumstance, feats, traits, ect.

Needing to keep track of a different bonus just for will save would be a pain.


Flashohol wrote:
It's already a great power why make it any better?

It's only a great power with heavy investment (human favored class), otherwise the penalty of saving against helpful spells is at least as bad as the bonus is good, arguably worse.

Flashohol wrote:
Indomitable will it untyped to that stacks and the bonus to CON from raging boosts the fort save (Morale bonus to CON is not a Moral bonus to Fort they stack).

What is Indomitable?

Flashohol wrote:
Needing to keep track of a different bonus just for will save would be a pain.

Any raging barbarian has to do this -- the "different bonus" is the will save bonus you get from raging...

Andoran

StreamOfTheSky wrote:
It's only a great power with heavy investment (human favored class), otherwise the penalty of saving against helpful spells is at least as bad as the bonus is good, arguably worse.

Huh? +7 bonus on most saves by 20th is eminently worth it all on its own. And it's front-loaded, too (it's +4 by only 8th level). And the downside really isn't that bad. It doesn't apply to Channel Energy, a Paladin's Lay on Hands, (debatably) an Alchemist's Extracts, or a lot of other things.


Deadmanwalking wrote:


Huh? +7 bonus on most saves by 20th is eminently worth it all on its own. And it's front-loaded, too (it's +4 by only 8th level). And the downside really isn't that bad. It doesn't apply to Channel Energy, a Paladin's Lay on Hands, (debatably) an Alchemist's Extracts, or a lot of other things.

Cleric Domain power's/aura's like touch of Good.

If you really need a spell then buff before hand, delay or stop raging. Heart of the fields, Tireless Rage, Lesser Resto, all remove/ignore fatigue so you can rage again after the spell.

Indomitable Will:
PRD Barbarion wrote:

Indomitable Will (Ex): While in rage, a barbarian of 14th level or higher gains a +4 bonus on Will saves to resist enchantment spells. This bonus stacks with all other modifiers, including the morale bonus on Will saves she also receives during her rage.

edit: had to fix the quote

Grand Lodge

Kind of opening and old post here but I have a question. Captain Moonscar ,you stated that Touch of Good is not subject Superstition, can you support that with specific links in RAW? I ask because it came up in my game. I would also like to know why Lay on Hands is debatable, Superstition only specifies spells cast by allies.
Thanks all.


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While Barbarians gain the superstition bonus vs spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities when using superstition they are only forced to make saves against allies spells.

"Benefit: The barbarian gains a +2 morale bonus on saving throws made to resist spells, supernatural abilities, and spell-like abilities. This bonus increases by +1 for every 4 levels the barbarian has attained. While raging, the barbarian cannot be a willing target of any spell and must make saving throws to resist all spells, even those cast by allies."

So if an ally uses a supernatural ability your not forced to save against it. This is why channeling positive energy doesn't require a save.

Grand Lodge

That is exactly my interpretation of RAW as well. That was a fast response Lab... thank you.
Makes me even more curious about Touch of Good now. heh


Touch of good is a spell-like ability. This is an iffy place for superstition. By RAW = No save required. Some GMs will however rule that spell-like abilities should be treated as a spell.

However, Superstition only forces a save if the ability allows / requires one. Touch of Good does not have a save so, no matter what the GM may feel on the spell-like abilities, no save is required because a saving throw isn't given.

Grand Lodge

Ya, I don't disagree with the logic behind what you are saying. I do rule in my games that Sp should follow all the rules that spells have to follow. I have been searching for definitive RAW wording that says Domain abilities that do not have save specified = Save {none}. I am a little unconformable with assuming not specified means not possible. As you stated that seems iffy to me and would like specific RAW wording to go off of other than implied reference. This conversation is really helping me in my research I appreciate your response.

Grand Lodge

If I wanted to compare Touch of Good to a spell that had similar abilities for purposes of rule comparison, are bless and prayer good examples in your opinion?

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