Me and my group recently started playing Pathfinder, as we got somewhat bored with D&D 3.5. It wasn't bad, but yet, we were searching for something new and that's one the reasons I'm writing this.
In general, I'm very pleased with Pathfinder and how it handles certain aspects of the game. The fusion of ceratin skills is reasonable, the core classes are interesseting but yet, there's still one think that already freaked me out when playing D&D and it slowly starts freaking me out while playing Pathfinder as well, and that is: the lack of "magic".
http://bxblackrazor.blogspot.de/2012/01/nothing-magical-in-d.html
I havn't written this "rant" but I wholeheartedly agree. While there are numerous pages about spells, magic items, spellcasters and whatsoever, all of this doesn't really help by creating a certain feeling of aw, curiosity or mystery. Maybe that's just me, but when I think about magic, I think it should be, well, "magical", mystical. So far, Pathfinder handles Magic in an identical way as D&D does - it trivialises magic and depreciates it to some sort of technology. So whys that?
One of the biggest issues I think, is, that the use of magic is predictable. That's especially "Fluff-breaking" when you consider, what "arcane" magic actually means. "Arcane" derives from the latin word "arcanum", meaning secret. But arcane magic isn't secret at all in Pathfinder, it's basically spalltered all over the world, all-day-buisness. There is no reason not to accomplish the even easiest, mundane task by means of magic.
I'm too bored to lighten a torch? Just cast Dancing Lights!
I'm too bored to look for a bridge in order to cross the gorge? Just cast fly!
I'm too lazy to roll on Survival in order to find some wood? That's what Create Food/Water is made for.
I know, that Pathfinder plays in a Highfantasy setting. Still, I find this all-day-use of magic deprives the game from even the slightest gimples of a sense of mystery. In books you can read about wizards that meddled with magic too much, turned mad, magicians who feel dragged towards magic by their will to gain even greater power and failed. But all of that, is simply fluff.
There is mechinical-wise not a single rule which creates some sort of mystery, danger or unpredictability. A spell will usually go off, without any hinderance - it is predictable. Using magic on a daily basis won't never do any harm, using magic out of mere laziness and wish for comfort bears no risk, whatsoever. That's not magic, that's just some sort of technology, to me.
This post isn't meant to be any sort of rant, so here's a constructive question:
Do you know of any good, 3th published or even house-made, alternate magic system which fulfills these criteria?
1) Casting a spell can FAIL. Maybe you have to make a roll of some sort to cast a spell.
2) Failing in casting a spell can harm you or create some unpredictable, random effects.
3) This system should encourage the players not to abuse magic for the mere sake of comfort. Instead of casting Create Food/Water each and everyday, it should encourage the players to accomplish these mundane tasks with skill checks or simply some non-magical means. Instead of "walking over the water", they should think twice before casting "Water Walk" instead of searching for some other sort of transportion. Maybe that casting a spell can fatigue the caster, or whatsoever.
4) It should treat arcane and divine caster in a similiar fashion, in order not to "nerf" any of these casters more than the other. Thou, I could imagine that a deity, to which a divine casters prays in order to get his spells, might sooner or later say "Nay" when a cleric of his begs for Create Food/Water each and every day because he's too lazy to get himself any food in "non-magical fashion".
So, long story short: an alternate magic system which makes magic more dangerous in use and more unpredictable. It should by no means reduce useful of magic or nerfed it, but simply encouraging the players not to solve each and every issues with magic, as magic - from my understanding - should be "arcane" (means: mystical) and dangerous. Means, it can fail. And when it does, no one can know what'll happen next.
Currently, I'm a bit in a fix. I'd really like to get back of magic and mystery in my campaign (which PF likes D&D imo lacks) and therefore, I'd be glad for any piece of information, advice how to do that!
:)
You can actually miscast with a scroll if you don't beat the CL check if I recall correctly.
I'm actually pretty new to Pathfinder myself so I can't really answer your question but if you are willing to go outside the D20 system Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 2nd Edition has a magic system you might like. Magic is unlimited and fairly powerful but if you mess up your spellcasting all sorts of horrendous stuff can happen, from a demonic contract being burnt into your skin to getting sucked into the realm of magic and violently torn apart!
Ars Magica.
Awesome system
Setting is extremely medieval and non mages definitely not the focus.
You may not be comfortable with the rest of the rules system, but the magic is just what you're looking for. It can be used as a high fantasy system in a D&D fashion, but you will need to work at it.
Fantasy Hero might work for you as well.
It's based on the champions/Hero system with magic being built from scratch so you could put in all the risk you want.
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
It's the inherent nature of D20 or any system that gets as rules heavy as D20/Pathfinder does. It becomes a method that others see as mainly constructing the right bonus for the right occasion.
In order for magic to have the feel you want it to have, it literally has to be less predictable with the results more open to GM interpretation than most D20 players, especially the newer generation, are conditioned to allow.
With D20/Pathfinder, I see the same problem with skills that you see with magic. A player can nuke charisma down to the nub to min-max another attribute, yet pretty much make up for that lack by the brute force method of pumping enough skill points and trait bonuses into it.
Dogbladewarrior wrote: You can actually miscast with a scroll if you don't beat the CL check if I recall correctly. Yes, and I think it adds something to the game. Nevertheless, nothing bad or unpredicted will ever happen, even if you completly blow the spell. I think, that's odd. If a mage tries to use a scroll and completly fails the spell (maybe rolling a 1) I imagine that his guys maybe stutters in-game, talks some nonsense or even casts a completly different spell of some sort. According to PF though, failing the use of a scroll - therefore misreading it - won't cause any trouble.
The way Warhammer handles it is similiar to that, what I'd like to have in my PF campaign. Magic should be as useful and powerful as it is, but a bit dangerous and unpredicatable.
Cornielius wrote: Fantasy Hero might work for you as well.
It's based on the champions/Hero system with magic being built from scratch so you could put in all the risk you want.
I've looked up Fantasy Hero and Ars Magica. Ars Magica sounds very neat and online available. Still, I think it would be very tough to convert these rules to the d20-system. I very like the system and that spells can "botch" but I would have to do most of the work still, converting these rules to the d20-system.
Therefore, I'd be glad if someone knows of any d20-systems, mechanics or rules which could be used or easily adopted to alter the offical magic-system of PF. The only stuff I've found so far was Thieve's World, but that really didn't please me. So, d20-stuff would be really appreciated, whether offical stuff or some well-done houserules.
:)
LazarX wrote: In order for magic to have the feel you want it to have, it literally has to be less predictable with the results more open to GM interpretation than most D20 players, especially the newer generation, are conditioned to allow. I don't want to solve this "issue" by letting the GM doing whatever he sees fit. It would be very abritary when the GM had to decide whether a spell functions or not. At least I wouldn't like it.
I know of several non-d20-systems which handle magic a bit different. "Das Schwarze Auge" or "Realms of Cthulhu for example". There, you can fail a spell, and in RoC, it can have some very nasty results. Basically, you make a skill-check on a spell and if you critically fail, you roll on a table to determine what nasty effect occurs. I think it's possible to include something like that to a d20-system.
The only reason I'm currently not trying to do it myself is that it can will be very difficult to balance it, i.e. making higher-level spells more likely to fail than lower-level spells, etc.. Therefore I'd like to use an alternate magic-systems which is already playtested instead of creating one from scratch.
Actually making a skill-based magic system based on Ars Magica for d20 could be potentially done (and skill-based magic systems for d20 appeared before). It would require hard work to avoid making it unplayable or too powerful, especially scaling cast DC's.
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Here's something that might work.
The RPGA D20 setting Living Gothic Earth (Masque of the Red Death) used the following rules for magic. I may not be remembering them exactly.
All spells take one full round to cast. Spells that normally take that amount take two full rounds to cast.
Gothic Earth used a variant of the Spellcraft skill. You needed to make a spellcraft roll of 15 + I think double the spell level in order to successfully cast a spell. A failure loses the spell. a really bad failure infects the caster with Taint. Spellcraft rolls were also required to add arcane spells to a spellbook.
After any spell is cast a check for Taint is also made. The probability of a Taint check increases with every magic item the character has on them.
I wrote up a GURPS-like Wizard for 3.5, though never tried it for real. It allows for spell failure and fumbles. It might be horribly broken, or not.
The problem stems from perspective. To us, in a magicless world, it isn't just magic, it's Magic. Something we don't understand/can't comprehend that does amazing things nobody on the planet could do.
On the flip side, you have the universes we're emulating, where only 5/20-ish way's of getting along in the world never learn to cast spells (and monks are debatable in that regard). I bet if the fantasy-verse had a DnD equivalent, it'd be a super high tech based reality. Possibly similar to ours.
If the rules of the game provide for the mystery, then the mystery will only be there the first time: maybe not even that if the players read the book.
The gm and the players can build in a lot more. In my current game, the party found a spell book that when read, reveals the will of the gods. They gave it to their arch fiend hoping it would bring him to their side. In another recent game, the party was in steam punk london trying to find a way to their home universe, because the creature that could plane shift them all back was going to destroy the city doing it.
I awarded the Tiger Style feat to the monk in our current game, stating he developed it after he was taken out in a fight with a dire tiger. He is currently trying to learn the "wave motion fist" from the party Transmuter, which is also outside the rules.
Point being, I make the game fun for me by coming up with my own material. All PF does is give me a good stat generating convention. That's it. Thankfully.
I can't imagine how bored Id be telling players to roll insanity checks every time they got a new spell level or saw an aberration 4 cr > apl.
Darigaaz the Igniter wrote: On the flip side, you have the universes we're emulating, where only 5/20-ish way's of getting along in the world never learn to cast spells (and monks are debatable in that regard). I bet if the fantasy-verse had a DnD equivalent, it'd be a super high tech based reality. Possibly similar to ours. Yeah, true point's that.
Currently, me and my group are playing in a self-written world. Therefore we play according to the PF-rules but write the world we're playing in, while playing it. It would be pretty tought - not to say, unrealistic - to town down the magic in the official D&D or PF-campaign world. Magic is all-day-buisness there without any drawback, which is why I actually don't feel to comfortablein these settings. I prefer Magic instead of magic. Still, I think even in such a magical world, magic should have some kind of drawback. The analogy to techology seems fair, though, even technology has its drawbacks.
Depending on the scenario you play, technology often causes some kind of drawback. The more "technologicalized" your character becomes, the less human-like he is - for example Shadowrun. Otherwise, technology can malfunction. Technology is good AND bad, im some way or the other. In PF, just like in D&D, it's all good. The worst that can happen is, that a spell simply doesn't work - not a huge drawback.
Anyway! As I said, me and my group want to start playing in a self-made world and therefore I, when it's up to me start GMing a few session, could easily invent some new mechanics. For example I could introduce an environmental change/hazard which causes all the magic to work less reliable. For this, I'd need this new easy-to-implement set of rules. :)
Some of the stuff that had been posted seem good so far, though, it all looks rather difficult to implement. I don't want to change the basics of the magic-system, just add something on top of that. "Masque of the Red Death" look quite promising so far, though.
cranewings wrote: I can't imagine how bored Id be telling players to roll insanity checks every time they got a new spell level or saw an aberration 4 cr > apl. True. Still, I'd like to have both. One way to create mystery is due to an intriguing story-telling and self-made monsters, items, events, etc. that no one can be prepared for. Nevertheless, personally I feel that the use of magic on a daily basis trivialises it. I don't want to introduce mystery by the mere use of new rules, but I want to give rules that indicate, that magic can be dangerous.
According to the rules, even poison is more dangerous than magic. If you try to poison a weapon, there's a slight chance that you posion yourself. Still, you can meddle with magic like a braindead maniac and NOTHING bad can happen because of that. For me, that kills a lot of atmosphere. I dislike the idea that magic is just all-good, no flaws, no drawbacks, - heck, it's even more reliable than some piece of technology, as technology can malfunction, magic cannot. My personal computer at home is more mysterious and dangerous to me than magic in PF!
Highfantasy or not, I'd like to try something different and see how it works. That's why I ask!
:)
Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
If you want, you can always use Words of Power (from Ultimate Magic) with vitalizing spell points. This
1) mixes up standard spellcasting, which can give players a sense of discovery
2) limits some of the crazy things that standard spells can do at low level (i.e., no more true strike unless granted as a bonus spell by arcane school/bloodline/domain/mystery/patron), which can reduce the mechanistic feel of "spells as technology"
3) gives casters more flexibility in targeting and combining effects, which reduces the frequency of characters using "standard spell lists"
4) gives some real drawbacks for "going nova" and casting most (or all) of your spells in a single fight (fatigue and exhaustion are not trivial conditions)
Even something as simple as removing Casting Defensively (no way to avoid AoOs for casting; you may want to consider changing the Combat Casting feat to allow Casting Defensively in this case... at no bonus) can change the feel of magic significantly. For "magical backlash" from failure to cast a spell properly, you can always use the rod of wonder random magic effect table as a starting point (perhaps using a custom table where you roll d20 + spell level to determine the effect).
Terranigma wrote:
In general, I'm very pleased with Pathfinder and how it handles certain aspects of the game. The fusion of ceratin skills is reasonable, the core classes are interesseting but yet, there's still one think that already freaked me out when playing D&D and it slowly starts freaking me out while playing Pathfinder as well, and that is: the lack of "magic".
Iron Heroes.
Problem solved. :)
Darigaaz the Igniter wrote: On the flip side, you have the universes we're emulating, where only 5/20-ish way's of getting along in the world never learn to cast spells (and monks are debatable in that regard). That's assuming that absolutely everybody in the campaign world is a PC class. Around 98% of the population should be NPC classes, and about 90% of those should either be commoners or experts.
So it's really more like 1/100 or less can cast spells.
Unless you're playing in the Forgotten Realms, where every drunk lying face-down in the gutter is more likely than not a 30+ level archmage. :P
|
2 people marked this as a favorite.
|
Kthulhu wrote: Unless you're playing in the Forgotten Realms, where every drunk lying face-down in the gutter is more likely than not a 30+ level archmage. :P Not true! There are only three or four level 30+ arcanists on Faerun, one of them is female, second one is undead and thus immune to effects of alcohol and third is mad enough without drinking. When you find a drunk lying face-down on Faerun you can be almost sure that his no higher than 26th level (items that grant bonus to CL not included).
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
See, the thing is, from a mechanical standpoint, having predictable magic allows for greater balance. Please remember that random chance doesn't favor the player as much, because failure doesn't harm random encounters or enemy NPCs, because there are a lot more of them. A failure for a PC can be fatal, and that can go from being "risky and exciting" to "why can't I NOT set myself on fire every session" very quickly.
Here's a solution. Spellcasting is used, like everything else that mankind gets a grasp of, to make life more convenient. The difference is that magic comes from a different source. The mystery is not in how a spell functions, but rather where it comes from. Think about it. Divine magic comes from gods and faith. Okay. But what about arcane? Where does the power source come from? What are the consequences? By whose whim is magic distributed if its arcane? Work off that. The rules are set in place to make the game stable, and they're simply a base structure, nothing more. Everything else is your job as GM to handle. For instance, lets say your PCs become too lazy with their spellcasting and start acting frivolously. As a result, the draw the ire of powerful magical beings or organizations that believe that magic should be respected and honored, not abused, or perhaps they're spells run dry because they overuse them, or perhaps others begin developing stereotypes against them for being lazy good-for-nothing without their wands and books and shiny things. You could make it so that magic is finite, and their abuse of it causes it to bleed out of the universe. You could pretty much come up with anything and it'd be fine. RAW very rarely acts compatibly as is with fluff. You have to make it work for you...
Ars magica, war hammer fantsy RP, Riddle of steel(I think), and Dresden files all work around rolling for your spell and obviously if you fail the roll then something bad can happen.
Generally speaking however I don't care for taking this idea to the far end of the spectrum.By far end of the spectrum I mean failure has a chance to cause insanity or ability damage or whatever.
Mainly because all those systems rely on chance and so there is no way to defend against insanity/damage. For example, lets say the wizard casts water walk so you roll on the "Will something bad happen?" table and roll two 1's. A balor comes out of the sky and eats the wizard.
Having the Balor come out and eat the wizard wasn't exciting, it's annoying. Mainly because it's sort of railroading because the player can't do anything to truly prevent it. He could choose not to cast spells, but then why is he a wizard?
On that note however, I think the system can work AWESOME if players can choose what happens. For example, in Dresden files when a wizard looses control of a spell he can do one of two things, either absorb the excess magical energy and take damage, or have the spell deal fallout where others might get hurt or it blows a hole through the building you're in causing it to begin collapsing.
TL;DR
Don't just roll on a table to see if a wizard goes insane for casting water walk, have the player's partially control the outcome if something goes bad.
Recent threads in General Discussion
|
