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7 cha = stoic?


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion

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Hey guys,

Im about to start gming a jade regent game and im running into a problem with a player.

He is planning to play a human wizard and wants me to ok dropping his cha score down 7.

If this was a splat game sure what ever but there is actual role playing and having the charisma of a badger just doesnt seem like a good idea.

I told him no and he wants to be pissy about it

so I asked him how he was planning to rp having the cha of a troll.

His response was that his character is very stoic.

I guess when I think of stoic it actually screams dang that guy have cha oozing out of him. The typical guy in the war movies that doesnt say anything and is a total bamf.

am I being a jerk for saying no when a big part of the jade regent is having a character that's somewhat likeable so the NPCs dont kick them out of the caravan?

Andoran

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

...stoic does not immediately equal charismatic. Nor does a 7 Cha mean people shun/hate you. The NPCs are more likely to forget he's in the caravan than kick him out.

Shadow Lodge

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Stoic is one way of doing a 7 CHA, but not the only way.


I don't think stoicism implies either a high or low charisma necessarily.
I think he needs to be "stoic AND interpersonally challenged to an extreme degree " if that's the route he's taking.
He's very stoic,......also he mumbles weird s*+* to himself all the time, and giggles, and has ripe cheesy gunk in his armpit hair, which he crosses his arms to twist absentmindedly.

And he's a very close talker. Who forgets to cover his mouth when he sneezes. And shouts really loud in your face when he does sneeze.
Without covering his mouth.

That's a 7 cha in a nutshell.

But he suffers well, because,.....all this will only make him stronger.


Or,....whatever he uses the points for.....


Hom many point build are you allowing? If it's 15, then Ok, grudingly. If it's 20, then tell him, he can have any stats he likes, but he gets only 15 pts.

There's no reason for a 7 in a 20+ pt build game. Well, sure if you put a 9 there and it's a race with a -2 I guess. But he's playing a human, so no go.

Andoran

He needs to not only be stoic, but either awkward or otherwise less than charming when he does speak.

Hollywood-style nerdiness is one posibility, crippling shyness another, or an irritating degree of arrogance. Those are my immediate thoughts for a Cha 7 Wizard, anyway.

Personally, in 20 point-buy, I'd just advise him to take the 7 in Strength instead, leaving him with a somewhat better Charisma. If he's got 7s in Strength AND Charisma already, he might be min-maxing a little much...


I am very new to pathfinder (in my first campaign still), but I do have experience roleplaying a stoic yet still uncharismatic character on a MU* to give my thoughts on the subject.

He was the kind that is brooding, self-centric, and often avoids other people and would very much represent a below average charisma score. You would think that this kind of person would get all of the chicks, but in reality it only makes people not want to roleplay with you because often social encounters are reduced down to saying nothing, or rejecting people to continue being by oneself. I eventually had to open up my character more. The kind of character that rejects the world around him to live in his own thoughts can very much represent a low charisma.

Basically he was more of an Edward Cullen than the kind of strong, silent type that speaks with action and integrity and has a powerful presence to him.

Since from what I understand, participation is a valued thing in Pathfinder, I wouldn't recommend allowing such a character because it would only leave the person idling most of the time until it is time to roll the dice.


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I imagine a CHA of 7-9 being a lot like Stannis Baratheon. Nobody likes him because he's very emotionless and doesn't seem to care about people so much as the ideals society is built around like honor and justice.


I allowed 25 pb and the reason I did was to discourage min maxing since you could balance the characters more.

He wants his wizard to have these stats

8/14/16/20/9/7

Shadow Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Sometimes people just want to play characters that aren't great at something. He wants a 7, not a 3. As long as he's not doing all the talking for the party, who cares? Heroes don't have to be good at everything. And they certainly don't need to be charismatic, especially if they're working with people who are.

Andoran

StealthElite wrote:

I allowed 25 pb and the reason I did was to discourage min maxing since you could balance the characters more.

He wants his wizard to have these stats

8/14/16/20/9/7

This is what limits on dump stats are for. If this degre of min-maxing annoys you, put some in place. Make sure you enforce them fairly, though.

Maybe suggest that he take only Con 14 and have Wis and Chr at 10. That doesn't exactly cripple his concept, after all.


I personally do not see a problem with 1 stat being a 7...but 3 sub 10 stats? that is a bit much imo. One concept for such a character though is a bookworm that never works out much (low strength), isnt very perceptive because his nose is in the book all the time (wisdom), and would rather deal with books than people (charisma). Sheesh, this is sounding rather familiar. Describes some people I know. The problem in my mind is the con. By toning the con down slightly he could bring his stats more into human norm and a wizard doesnt usually need such a high con. - Gauss

Shadow Lodge

Also, in addition to charm, isn't charisma force of personality? That's how I read it since it's the prime stat for sorcerers, anyway. Maybe he's got a weak chin, a nasal voice, and a tendency to whine. People might want to give him wedgies, but he won't be shunned walking down the street.


I don’t see a problem with a 7 charisma on a wizard. What do you expect out of a wizard socially? You’re talking about someone who’s done nothing but learn the secrets of magic the entirety of his sad little life. Wizards don’t party, wizards don’t get chicks, wizards are never the cool kids, at most they’re valuable side-kicks, wizards just aren’t that sexy… you’re talking about the quintessential WoW player of the fantasy world who never leaves his mom’s basement because if he just perfects his in-game macro’s his dps will be high enough to get that new staff that will make all the other anti-social-nerd-casters crap their pants when they see it. Poor little dude.

I mean seriously if you take a 7 charisma as per the rules of the game you have negative modifiers effecting dice roles that have to do with skills and situations pertinent to the stat. His charisma’s low, he’s going to do poorly at things that require charisma, why punish him more? How many ability points did he net doing this? 1? 2? It’s not going to break your game, and its obviously ruining his good time. I’m not trying to be snarky at all, its just your problem should be with the rules not the player for using the rules to his advantage. If you don’t like the way the point system works then don’t use it. Get your players to roll their stats, it’s more fun that way anyways.


Tell him tough noogies and to drop his Int down all the way to 18(boohoo) and to deal.

Or the alternative option he has is that he can keep the 7 Cha but everyone(the npcs) will think he's being a douche even if he isn't trying. Everything he says comes off condescending, he has a permanent sneer like he thinks he's better than you, and the people he interacts with are all going to treat him as though that's what he's doing even if he tries to be charming.

His party of course is free to tolerate him or look under the surface and find he's actually quite nice he just comes off as a dick unintentionally but he'd better not hope to talk his way out of a problem with some random folks.


25 point buy?!?!? Anything less than 8 is cheese.


Blakksheep wrote:

I don’t see a problem with a 7 charisma on a wizard. What do you expect out of a wizard socially? You’re talking about someone who’s done nothing but learn the secrets of magic the entirety of his sad little life. Wizards don’t party, wizards don’t get chicks, wizards are never the cool kids, at most they’re valuable side-kicks, wizards just aren’t that sexy… you’re talking about the quintessential WoW player of the fantasy world who never leaves his mom’s basement because if he just perfects his in-game macro’s his dps will be high enough to get that new staff that will make all the other anti-social-nerd-casters crap their pants when they see it. Poor little dude.

...

Wizards do party, they just didn't invite you ans they are rather elitist. And of course they have chicks, but they usually use planar escort services for the very same reason - they are elitist and want only the best ;)

Osirion

Let him do what he wants with his stats and make it clear that you will be enforcing how npcs react to the party members - this means that the person actually talking will be the character making the diplomacy, bluff,intimidates, etc. Then have the npcs react to him accordingly. He made his bed, so he should lie in it - as long as he knows you're not going to make it for him every morning.


Zmar wrote:


Wizards do party, they just didn't invite you ans they are rather elitist. And of course they have chicks, but they usually use planar escort services for the very same reason - they are elitist and want only the best ;)

I’m sure they call them “parties”, but I imagine something more like a science-faire in a dark damp tower cellar with the borg-queen from Star-Trek First Contact serving drinks.


Blakksheep wrote:

I don’t see a problem with a 7 charisma on a wizard.

I do, since the DM allowed a very generous 25 pt buy just to discourage min/maxing.

No problem then, say OK, you can have any build you want but with a 20 pt buy, I was giving you guys 25 pt buy to discourage ant really low stats".

This sort of thing is ridiculous. I'd even think about whether or not I want to keep him in the game.

Heck, just tell the players "no stat below 10, except with racial modifiers".


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Deyvantius wrote:
25 point buy?!?!? Anything less than 8 is cheese.

I'd even say anything less than a 10, racial modifers excluded, of course.

25 is very generous.


Deidre Tiriel wrote:
Let him do what he wants with his stats and make it clear that you will be enforcing how npcs react to the party members - this means that the person actually talking will be the character making the diplomacy, bluff,intimidates, etc. Then have the npcs react to him accordingly. He made his bed, so he should lie in it - as long as he knows you're not going to make it for him every morning.

The Charisma stat already hurts roleplaying badly enough, and you want to make it so characters can't even talk to NPCs without making cha skill checks?

Absolutely terrible idea.


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My elf magus has a 7 charisma, but a very high int. I play him as aloof and tactless. I'm casually and brutally honest, completely oblivious to peoples feelings. So is my character *boo-doom-chhh*

Taldor

Blakksheep wrote:
Zmar wrote:


Wizards do party, they just didn't invite you ans they are rather elitist. And of course they have chicks, but they usually use planar escort services for the very same reason - they are elitist and want only the best ;)
I’m sure they call them “parties”, but I imagine something more like a science-faire in a dark damp tower cellar with the borg-queen from Star-Trek First Contact serving drinks.

Well, they probably don't have "parties" per se, but I bet they meet with other wizards and play fun roleplaying ga- wait...

Let's look at the skills charisma affects.
Bluff
Diplomacy
Disguise
Handle Animal
Intimidate
Use Magical Device
Perform

So someone with low charisma is going to be defined primarily by difficulty getting others to do what they want. They'll be bad at talking people into things and talking their own way out of things; they can't lie convincingly, and don't make others friendly particularly friendly towards them.

IMO, as long as you stay within those boundaries, you're fine. Nothing specific is required.


If the point buy is 25 or higher, I see nothing wrong with setting some sort of rule like "Only one stat can be lower than a 10, and no stat lower than an 8".

I also don't understand why people think Cha 7 means you're a social leper. You have -2 to cha skills over the average man. Assuming the DC is still within reach, you merely have 10% worse odds of making it happen. And as a Wizard, you could drop some knowledge ranks to easily overcome that penalty on social skills anyway.


let him do it, will be a pleasant day when he realizes how hard he has to work to get a reasonable UMD with a 7 Cha, or fails a perception check because of his9 wis.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

7 is no big deal. -2 on charisma based rolls in a d20 game equals 10% less chance to be successfull than the average joe. This means 10% less chance of picking up the girl in the bar, or getting a raise, compared to the average person.

Don't drama it, 7 is fine.


Tandriniel wrote:

7 is no big deal. -2 on charisma based rolls in a d20 game equals 10% less chance to be successfull than the average joe. This means 10% less chance of picking up the girl in the bar, or getting a raise, compared to the average person.

Don't drama it, 7 is fine.

Ah but it's also 30% down the bar between average looks and too ugly to live innit?


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StealthElite wrote:
am I being a jerk for saying no when a big part of the jade regent is having a character that's somewhat likeable so the NPCs dont kick them out of the caravan?

Yes.

---

Cha 7 + 2 rank diplomacy = Cha 14 0 rank diplomacy

Yes the Cha 7 will not bluff, or intimidate but why should say an honest Good character do that kind of thing?

Lets fast forward to level 10

Cha 7 10 rank diplomacy >>>> Cha 14 0 rank diplomacy

So the Cha 14 guy will not get 'thrown out of the caravan' but the Diplomacy modifier +8 guy will?

---

People keep nasty people around if they are useful. "Yeah he's a great fighter and saved us from the Minotaur's but he's a bit of a boring guy so lets get rid of him."

Doesn't make much sense to me.

---

As for 'dump stats are cheese': why? Characters with clearly defined flaws and strengths offer much richer roleplaying opportunities.

If you really want to 'punish' player just make them do skill checks in skill they don't have. No meta game punishment is needed when the rules of the game will penalise them enough.

Andoran

Lightbulb wrote:


As for 'dump stats are cheese': why? Characters with clearly defined flaws and strengths offer much richer roleplaying opportunities.

Dump stats aren't necessarily cheese. Three dump stats on a 25 point-buy character? On exactly the three abilities he needs least? Two of them solely used to get his Con from 14 to 16? That's pretty much cheese, right there.


Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

First of all the stats aren't super optimized (too much points spent on CON and a penalty to WIS), and the CHA is nearly useless for him.
In addition in a few levels the CHA score won't matter, skill ranks and class skills matter.
If you want to have him constantly making diplomacy/bluff rolls be sure to have every player do so (because otherwise you are just going after the player), if you do then you will notice that nearly everyone's results* will be roughly the same.
Finally i advise to either make a rule of no dump stats (since you don't like them) or give them 15 point buy and let them dump away.

*i am saying nearly everyone's because i don't know what the party composition is.


Maybe I just don't want my characters to be complete stereotypes

The wizard has super high int because he stays in his room all day long reading books on magic, history and math.

And as a result he doesn't work out, has no common sense and has no social skills what so ever.

---------------------------------------------

The party will be

Human paladin(healing focused)

Kitsune(stays in human form except when fighting crime) ninja

nagaji samurai(former slave, that now works for the caravan)

Human wizard(no back story yet)


StealthElite wrote:

Maybe I just don't want my characters to be complete stereotypes

The wizard has super high int because he stays in his room all day long reading books on magic, history and math.

And as a result he doesn't work out, has no common sense and has no social skills what so ever.

With that background, he probably shouldn't have a high Con, either. And a high Dex might not fit, either.

Quote:

The party will be

Human paladin(healing focused)

Kitsune(stays in human form except when fighting crime) ninja

nagaji samurai(former slave, that now works for the caravan)

Human wizard(no back story yet)

I'm probably being too critical here, especially since the way your group plays is really none of my business, but maybe the human wizard could come up with a back story first, and then pick stats to match?

Andoran

StealthElite wrote:

Maybe I just don't want my characters to be complete stereotypes

The wizard has super high int because he stays in his room all day long reading books on magic, history and math.

And as a result he doesn't work out, has no common sense and has no social skills what so ever.

That's not a background favoring high Dex or Con, either. In fact, I'd say it favors Wis over both Dex and Con, speaking logically.


I can see Int 20 chr 7

its when a character is int/wis 20 and then wis/int 7......massive intellect but no idea how to apply it OR full of instinct but never applying it at the right time....really hard to judge


Lightbulb wrote:
StealthElite wrote:
am I being a jerk for saying no when a big part of the jade regent is having a character that's somewhat likeable so the NPCs dont kick them out of the caravan?

Yes.

---

Cha 7 + 2 rank diplomacy = Cha 14 0 rank diplomacy

Yes the Cha 7 will not bluff, or intimidate but why should say an honest Good character do that kind of thing?

Lets fast forward to level 10

Cha 7 10 rank diplomacy >>>> Cha 14 0 rank diplomacy

So the Cha 14 guy will not get 'thrown out of the caravan' but the Diplomacy modifier +8 guy will?

---

People keep nasty people around if they are useful. "Yeah he's a great fighter and saved us from the Minotaur's but he's a bit of a boring guy so lets get rid of him."

Doesn't make much sense to me.

---

As for 'dump stats are cheese': why? Characters with clearly defined flaws and strengths offer much richer roleplaying opportunities.

If you really want to 'punish' player just make them do skill checks in skill they don't have. No meta game punishment is needed when the rules of the game will penalise them enough.

A comment on the skill rank vs. stat issue:

Being liked is not about Diplomacy. Diplomacy +8 is being skilled at negotiating a friendly interaction despite the impact (or lack thereof) your negative charisma has on people. While CHA +2 is just being generally liked to begin with. If I had a CHA of 7 I would probably not want to be in a negotiating mood all the time and thus would slip up.

I still agree that this isn't enough to be thrown off the caravan, though. I have friends who I can say might have negative charisma, but they're still my friends.

---

On "dump stat is cheese": It so is if all the player wants out of it is munching his stats to be powerful. If the campaign is about RP and interaction as much as fighting, you'd need a character that isn't going to be useless for that. (Or if your concept is being useless at that you'd need a talented player and some understanding of how to keep the character out of it without ruining the fun for the group.)

The stats asked for were 8/14/16/20/9/7. This sounds like a weak, but overweight and hyper-intelligent guy who has no idea what is going on around him and doesn't care. His WIS 9 and CHA 7 make it sound like he should be diagnosed with some social disorder, and with a whooping 20 INT this sounds like Sheldon Cooper (who is a great TV show character, but I wouldn't imagine him being very playable as an RPG character unless the player was particularly skilled).

If this player wants these stats for RP reasons, then let him explain how this will be RP'd. I'm kinda curious.

Anyway, what does NOT make this GM a jerk, is that he's given a generous point buy to discourage min/maxing, and when someone min/maxes anyway, he wishes to stop that. That is okay, but Mr. GM, you probably should have told your players this in advance. If you tell them now, make sure you set limits that everyone needs to follow and make sure everyone follows them.

By the way, "stoic" in my opinion would require not only a minimum of 8 CHA, but also a better WIS, because I tie calm/stoic to having the willpower not to freak out. If this guy wants these bad stats he should play to them and not make them out to be positive, because they're not.

Cheers.


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the rules really don't offer much to punish those who dump cha (it's the opposite for wisdom). Just accept that this can happen if you use pointbuy, or clearly state "no stat below 10".

I would just tell the player that if his character is/plays vastly more powerful than the rest of the group and thus ruins their fun, he has to be replaced.


Let the player have the 7, but make sure to re-enforce RP consequences to the player and his fellow adventurers. They should also have an opinion since they are traveling with this character.

If played and DM'd correctly, it could be fun if everyone supports the RP aspect. This is our socially inept friend. Also, for social events, possible RP could be more expensive outfits, disguises, etc.

I tend to look at CHA as temperance Brennan of Bones. Oblivious to others feelings.

Hope this helps.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

The only way you come off as being stoic is to have a positive Charisma modifier. Well, sometimes you can't take the min/maxer out of everyone.

The more likely interpretation would be that he tries to impress people with a stoic manner but generally fails at pulling it off.


Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Steve Shippy aka Beerwolf wrote:

Let the player have the 7, but make sure to re-enforce RP consequences to the player and his fellow adventurers. They should also have an opinion since they are traveling with this character.

If he enforces RP consequences then he should also enforce the same consequences for the samurai who will likely have a CHA 10, which means roughly 10% better results and 10% better results in RP consequences isn't much.

The same go for the ninja and paladin but at a lesser degree, since i guess the ninja's CHA will be 12-14 (meaning 15%-20% better than the wizard's) and i guess the paladin's CHA will be 14-16 (meaning 20%-25% better than the wizard's).
So as you can see the rest of the party isn't that much better than the wizard, without even considering that i have not seen a CHA check in a very long time and the whole point of this discussion is moot since it's the skill points that actually matter.

a little rant:

I can't understand why people think that a score of 7 in an ability is SO low and such a burden and make you that much different than the rest of the people but at the same time they don't consider a score of 14 to be SO high and make that much difference.
Also i can't understand why they don't see the math or the fact that CHA is the most useless of the abilities for the majority of classes.

Cheliax

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Tell them it's 25 points, no stat dump; if you were to allow stat dump you'd need to go down for 20 for balance purposes. He can whine all he wants, you're the GM.


Yeah, it looks like min-maxing to me. However, there are a number of consequences. Str poison will knock him on his backside quite quickly. Like others have said, reinforce the ramification of not being likable. Caravan is ambushed? Well, the NPCs will have favourites and defend them first, etc etc.


Spanky the Leprechaun wrote:

I don't think stoicism implies either a high or low charisma necessarily.

I think he needs to be "stoic AND interpersonally challenged to an extreme degree " if that's the route he's taking.
He's very stoic,......also he mumbles weird s@+! to himself all the time, and giggles, and has ripe cheesy gunk in his armpit hair, which he crosses his arms to twist absentmindedly.

And he's a very close talker. Who forgets to cover his mouth when he sneezes. And shouts really loud in your face when he does sneeze.
Without covering his mouth.

That sounds like a great description...of a character with around a 4 Cha.

7 Charisma is only slightly below average, no big deal at all.


Deadmanwalking wrote:


Dump stats aren't necessarily cheese. Three dump stats on a 25 point-buy character? On exactly the three abilities he needs least? Two of them solely used to get his Con from 14 to 16? That's pretty much cheese, right there.

Heck, in this case even one dump stat is cheesy, as the DM gave them 25 points just so they didn;t have to dump.


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Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
DrDeth wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:


Dump stats aren't necessarily cheese. Three dump stats on a 25 point-buy character? On exactly the three abilities he needs least? Two of them solely used to get his Con from 14 to 16? That's pretty much cheese, right there.

Heck, in this case even one dump stat is cheesy, as the DM gave them 25 points just so they didn;t have to dump.

If the DM gave 25 point buy but didn't want them to dump HE SHOULD HAVE SAID SO.

Andoran

A 25 point buy is overly generous to begin with, considering that Pathfinder encounters are usually built utilizing 15 point buys. Now that you've let the players "get over" before the game has even started, this particular player is continuing to push the envelope by seeing how much he can stretch the rules in his favor. And he's not even being sweet or polite about it ( being "pissy" when one can't get what you want is probably a good example of a person with a 7 charisma ). If you let him get what he wants by being "pissy", you are continuing to set yourself and the group up for more difficulty when he can't get his own way. Either firmly stop the nonsense now, or be prepared for the continual escalation of his cheesy adolescent-type behavior.


Cathedralsquares wrote:
I imagine a CHA of 7-9 being a lot like Stannis Baratheon. Nobody likes him because he's very emotionless and doesn't seem to care about people so much as the ideals society is built around like honor and justice.

Stannis is probably in that range...as is Joffrey, who is completely different. Sam Tarley is probably in that range too, and he's totally unlike either of the others.

Andoran

leo1925 wrote:


If the DM gave 25 point buy but didn't want them to dump HE SHOULD HAVE SAID SO.

Indeed. Which is why I (and several others) have suggested making that clear as something the GM should do immediately.

Doesn't make dumping under those circumstances any less cheesy, just means he wasn't warned properly (or, if he was, not exsplicitly enough) the degree to which such cheese wasn't appropriate for the game the GM intended to run.

Chobemaster wrote:
Stannis is probably in that range...as is Joffrey, who is completely different. Sam Tarley is probably in that range too, and he's totally unlike either of the others.

I agree on Stannis and Sam, but I'd actually say Joffrey may have a bit more Charisma than that. Say, 10-12 or so. His shortfalls have more to do with being an evil little s~!* with poor impulse control (Evil alignment and low Wisdom), than they do with any real inability to be charming or compeling when he wishes.


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Orcadorsala wrote:
On "dump stat is cheese": It so is if all the player wants out of it is munching his stats to be powerful. If the campaign is about RP and interaction as much as fighting, you'd need a character that isn't going to be useless for that. (Or if your concept is being useless at that you'd need a talented player and some...

I have two distinct point in reply to this:

1) If you prevent a min/maxer from dumping stats then they do not suddenly become a better roleplayer.

Becoming a better role player requires a lot more than not having dump stats.

----

2) Following the rules (you can reduce stats down to 7, which means down to 5 if you have a negative penalty) is not cheese.

Cheese is bending rules, breaking rules or using strange RAW combinations to get over-powerful effects.

How can doing exactly what is written in the rulebook be cheese?

Building the most powerful character you can is not cheese in my mind. For some people this is the fun part of the game. For some its part of the fun of the game.

If you want better role play encourage it, set a good example. Use some carrots and if needed some stick.

In my opinion don't change the RAW to try and encourage role playing. Especially when it will have almost no effect.

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