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Why do monks need to be as good at fighting as other melee classes?


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion

201 to 250 of 293 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | next > last >>

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
master arminas wrote:
ReconstructorFleet wrote:
And Master Arminas: Toss that brand-spanking-new Monk Homebrew onto the appropriate thread! I want to save that lovely looking class for later. :D
Done. A Monk That Doesn't Suck Wind

Actually I think he meant the thread I started for Suggested Monk Redesigns, but no matter! More monk redesign threads are good!

Andoran

Jak the Looney Alchemist wrote:

I concur. She is talking about the efficiency and ac of the base monk class. Ciretose is talking about how you can stack mods and use archetypes on the monk to give it a good ac.

I'm not doing an either/or, I'm doing both.

I can beat the 20 AC standard that she set before I stack anything on with a generic 12 dex 16 wisdom monk build. No cheese optimized for AC build, a generic base build.

The fact that I can also add things to 20 that other classes can't, and the fact that it is mostly touch AC, and the fact that they have all good saves, and are immune to disease, and don't have armor check penalties, and have effectively double the movement of the person wearing medium armor.

I am say I can match or surpass the ranger before the buffs are added they aren't eligible for, and in all other defensive categories (except hit points) the monk is far superior (Saves, disease Immunity, Touch AC, mobility, etc...)


Can't burn ki points to cast barkskin and still be an unaltered monk. You are now a Qinggong monk. Which has already been stated as an exemption to the monks that suck and lack direction movement.

Andoran

Jak the Looney Alchemist wrote:
Can't burn ki points to cast barkskin and still be an unaltered monk. You are now a Qinggong monk. Which has already been stated as an exemption to the monks that suck and lack direction movement.

Goalposts move where?

And again, I beat the number without the barkskin.


Haven't moved the goal posts. This was mentioned pages ago. I don't really care if you can beat the number or not. I was expressing that you guys were arguing different things.

Edit: Doing the "I can kick my numbers up higher than yours" game is silly. Anyone can play it and no one wins.

Andoran

So to make sure I have this, because now I am confused. The ranger and the monk are hasted. Why? Who knows, it isn't my scenario.

The ranger has a 16 dex and an 18 strength with a +2 weapon. So BaB 8, +4 strength, +2 weapon, +1 haste is +15. Minus 3 for power attack is +12, but doing 1d8+17 damage (6 from strength, 9 from power attack, 2 from weapon)

He has three attacks, two at +12, one at +7.

The monk had 5 attacks (no ki, because that would be cheesier than everyone having haste)

Flurry BaB at 8th is +6, +4 strength (both are 18) + 2 mighty fists (she gave it to me so I'll take it), +1 haste for a +13 to hit for the first three attacks, +8 for the last two.

So Five attacks, three at +13, 2 at +8 damage is 1d10+6 (4 strength, 2 might fists)


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Yes, I see you point Jak. It's the same question: which is better, amulet of natural armour or potion of barkskin?

Fact is that anyone can spam potions, and certainly the monk can make better use of potions of mage armour than other classes for whom it is a buff to touch AC only. On the flip side, these are all one dispel away from being gone, don't last long and require you to use them before hand. They also presume a source of replenishment, which is not always available in many campaigns.

On the whole, when working with AC comparisons, I prefer to work with permanent items only, and with any feats and abilities two classes share ignored. Only feats that one can take and the other cannot are factored in.

So for me, at 6th level you have 16K WBL, a ranger could have an amulet of natural armour +1, ring of protection +1, mithral breastplate +1 for 9K on protection - AC19+Dex. A belt of +2 for a stat and two +1 weapons complete the set. Now the ranger could well have taken decent dex to help qualify for other feats, so with boosters an 18 dex is not out of the question, for 23 total.

A monk could have a ring of protection +1, bracers of Armour +1, for 3K on defence. An amulet of mighty fists +1 does for offence, two +2 stat boosters (headband & belt) takes us to 16K. You could drop the stat boosters and improve the bracers to +3, but it makes no difference and the stats at least boost other things if you take dex and wis. Add one from monk level and you have AC13+Dex+Wis. Now with one of my monks, they will have around an 18 dex and 16 wis, so with boosters AC22 is easily within your grasp.

Not much in it, really.

Andoran

Dabbler wrote:

Yes, I see you point Jak. It's the same question: which is better, amulet of natural armour or potion of barkskin?

Fact is that anyone can spam potions, and certainly the monk can make better use of potions of mage armour than other classes for whom it is a buff to touch AC only. On the flip side, these are all one dispel away from being gone, don't last long and require you to use them before hand. They also presume a source of replenishment, which is not always available in many campaigns.

On the whole, when working with AC comparisons, I prefer to work with permanent items only, and with any feats and abilities two classes share ignored. Only feats that one can take and the other cannot are factored in.

So for me, at 6th level you have 16K WBL, a ranger could have an amulet of natural armour +1, ring of protection +1, mithral breastplate +1 for 9K on protection - AC19+Dex. A belt of +2 for a stat and two +1 weapons complete the set. Now the ranger could well have taken decent dex to help qualify for other feats, so with boosters an 18 dex is not out of the question, for 23 total.

A monk could have a ring of protection +1, bracers of Armour +1, for 3K on defence. An amulet of mighty fists +1 does for offence, two +2 stat boosters (headband & belt) takes us to 16K. You could drop the stat boosters and improve the bracers to +3, but it makes no difference and the stats at least boost other things if you take dex and wis. Add one from monk level and you have AC13+Dex+Wis. Now with one of my monks, they will have around an 18 dex and 16 wis, so with boosters AC22 is easily within your grasp.

Not much in it, really.

+2 stat boosters are only 2k each, or 5k for one that does two things.

So for the 9k the ranger spent on protection the monk can get the ring of protection(1k) bracers of armor +1 (1k) Headband of wisdom (2k) and a belt of dexterity and strength (5k) for a +4 to AC from the various sources.

Assuming starting a 12 dex and 16 wisdom before enhancement, that would be +2 natural, +4 wisdom, +2 dex, +1 ring, +1 bracers for a total of 20.

Add in dodge for 21. Switch the strength boost if you like for an amulet of natural armor, but with Quingong (it exists...) you don't need to.

The ranger with an 18 dex is just as MaD as the monk I created is accused of being if you are doing a Melee build.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
ciretose wrote:
+2 stat boosters are only 2k each, or 5k for one that does two things.

Huh? Unless you have a friendly crafter in the party, forget it.

Belts and headbands are 4Kgp for a +2 boost to an ability score.

As I said, I do not count feats that both classes can take, so Dodge is off the table as both classes could use it. Two Weapon Defence isn't, but the ranger has limited feats anyway so I ignored it.


Dabbler wrote:


On the whole, when working with AC comparisons, I prefer to work with permanent items only, and with any feats and abilities two classes share ignored. Only feats that one can take and the other cannot are factored in.

This sounds much more reasonable. Although I would also factor in long term buffs that can be reasonably applied over an extended period if the class has reasonable consistent access to it in a vacuum. I'd also consider factoring in feats that a given build may be inclined to take that another could in regards to long term planning.

I.E. A monk might reasonably be inclined to take dodge and mobility, so as to boost its ac when using the panther style feats. A ranger could take both feats, but would most likely find that it wasn't cost effective even for a tank build.

The argument is silly until you establish some concrete ground rules and concrete builds before doing dps comparisons imo. I mean no offense to either of you with that statement.


ciretose wrote:
As you can see, you gave the ranger the benefits of haste for some reason I can't figure out, but did not give the benefit to the monk because somehow you are arguing an unarmed strike isn't a natural weapon.

It's not. It is an unarmed attack. This has been clarified multiple times. You cannot take Improved Natural Attack for an unarmed strike. It is not listed as a natural weapon in the Bestiary. It is specifically called out as being different from both Natural and Manufactured weapons in the Core Rulebook. It has its own rules regarding proficiency, provoking attacks, and so forth. The monk treats their unarmed strikes as natural and manufactured weapons only for the purposes of spells that directly enhance them (such as greater magic weapon, which I gave to the monk). Prove otherwise if you have a problem with it. Haste does not directly enhance weapons of the monk, and grants monks no additional unarmed strikes because they are neither Natural nor Manufactured weapons.

Quote:
And you didn't add the power attack penalty.

Oh yes I did. BAB = +8, Str = +4, GMW = +2, Haste = +1. Total is +15. Power Attack at 8 is -3 to hit, +6 (in this case) to damage. Final result is a +12. Here is the calculation once again.

Ashiel wrote:
+12(55%)/+12(55%)/+7(30%)
Quote:
And none of this had anything to do with AC, which was the topic at hand.

Except the part that did, where I noted that your AC lags behind the Ranger when you're not spending Ki, and to catch up with the Ranger, the Ranger is scarier in melee in a traditional party.

Additionally, the monk was also benefiting from Haste. Check the attack modifiers. It includes the +1 from Haste. I used Haste damage because it is an excessively common buff, especially at 8th level. As is GMW, since it lasts all day at this level. You have oft-cited spells which your cannot access by your class alone (Mage Armor being a big one), so I assumed the party had a Wizard.

But just for fun; here's the Ranger and Monk without haste.
================================
Ranger vs CR 8 (21 AC)
+11(50%)/+6(25%)
At 16 damage per hit or DPR = 12

Monk vs CR 8 (21 AC)
+8(35%)/+8(35%)/+3(10%)/+3(10%)
At 9.5 damage per hit or DPR = 8.55

EDIT: Let's buff the monk some more. We'll give him a 16 Str, giving him 16 Str, 16 Dex, 18 Wisdom (not legal without tanking Con). That increases his damage per hit to 10.5 damage per hit. Resulting in...

Monk vs CR 8 (21 AC)
+9(40%)/+9(40%)/+4(15%)/+4(15%)
At 10.5 damage per hit or DPR = 11.55

Nice. He kind of catches up with the Ranger in this case, while also being almost as good in AC against the Ranger while not chugging Ki points like an addict.

Andoran

Lets assume 15 point buy with a +2 class somewhere and try to get the parties playing on the same field and not have the schrodinger emerge.

For simplicity lets look at a 12 dex (2) and 13 con (2) a 14 (5) wisdom boosted to 16 with the ability a 14 (5) strength boosted at 4th and 8th to take him to 16 before boosts.

So I have a 16 str, 16 wis, 12 dex, 12 con, 10 charisma, 10 int. I could dump and go higher, but again, not going for optimization here. If I were building I would probably dump charisma or intelligence for more strength, but I don't want to have anyone say "you dumped x"

I can do everything I said I could with the above stats. I got items to boost str, dex, and wisdom by 2 each at a cost of 7k, and have so far bought two AC boosting items at 1k each for a total expenditure of 9k.

What is the buy of the hypothetical ranger?

Andoran

Dabbler wrote:
ciretose wrote:
+2 stat boosters are only 2k each, or 5k for one that does two things.

Huh? Unless you have a friendly crafter in the party, forget it.

Belts and headbands are 4Kgp for a +2 boost to an ability score.

As I said, I do not count feats that both classes can take, so Dodge is off the table as both classes could use it. Two Weapon Defence isn't, but the ranger has limited feats anyway so I ignored it.

You are correct, I am multi-tasking and failed :)


ciretose wrote:

Lets assume 15 point buy with a +2 class somewhere and try to get the parties playing on the same field and not have the schrodinger emerge.

For simplicity lets look at a 12 dex (2) and 13 con (2) a 14 (5) wisdom boosted to 16 with the ability a 14 (5) strength boosted at 4th and 8th to take him to 16 before boosts.

So I have a 16 str, 16 wis, 12 dex, 12 con, 10 charisma, 10 int. I could dump and go higher, but again, not going for optimization here. If I were building I would probably dump charisma or intelligence for more strength, but I don't want to have anyone say "you dumped x"

I can do everything I said I could with the above stats. I got items to boost str, dex, and wisdom by 2 each at a cost of 7k, and have so far bought two AC boosting items at 1k each for a total expenditure of 9k.

What is the buy of the hypothetical ranger?

Same as Monk, actually. See, the first demonstration showed you were lagging behind the Ranger's non-shield AC by quite a bit with a 12 base Dex. Raising the Dex to 16 helped catch up a bit, but if we did that, then you'd have less juice for Strength, since your Wisdom was already a prime stat (16). I just swapped the stats around for the Ranger. The monk in the example was Str 14, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 7, Wis 18, Cha 7. The Ranger was Str 18 (swapped Wisdom), Dex 16, Wis 14. Same stats.

Andoran

Ashiel wrote:
ciretose wrote:

Lets assume 15 point buy with a +2 class somewhere and try to get the parties playing on the same field and not have the schrodinger emerge.

For simplicity lets look at a 12 dex (2) and 13 con (2) a 14 (5) wisdom boosted to 16 with the ability a 14 (5) strength boosted at 4th and 8th to take him to 16 before boosts.

So I have a 16 str, 16 wis, 12 dex, 12 con, 10 charisma, 10 int. I could dump and go higher, but again, not going for optimization here. If I were building I would probably dump charisma or intelligence for more strength, but I don't want to have anyone say "you dumped x"

I can do everything I said I could with the above stats. I got items to boost str, dex, and wisdom by 2 each at a cost of 7k, and have so far bought two AC boosting items at 1k each for a total expenditure of 9k.

What is the buy of the hypothetical ranger?

Same as Monk, actually. See, the first demonstration showed you were lagging behind the Ranger's non-shield AC by quite a bit with a 12 base Dex. Raising the Dex to 16 helped catch up a bit, but if we did that, then you'd have less juice for Strength, since your Wisdom was already a prime stat (16). I just swapped the stats around for the Ranger. The monk in the example was Str 14, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 7, Wis 18, Cha 7. The Ranger was Str 18 (swapped Wisdom), Dex 16, Wis 14. Same stats.

So if I use your ranger build, I start with an 18 wisdom and a 16 dex thanks to dump stats and have a 17 AC without dodge and a 18 with it.

Andoran

Ok, so at this point, my proposed "No dump" build is a 15 at 1st, I believe the ranger would be around the same with chainmail, maybe one better as they aren't going higher than 14 with dex if they are melee focuses.

With two dump the ranger is maxing at 18, since at most they can scale mail.

Level 2 the ranger can afford a breastplate taking them to 19, where the cap out before enhancements.

Is anything I am saying incorrect.

Andoran

I don't see why haste wouldn't apply when magic weapon applies. But we can FAQ it.

"Magic weapon gives a weapon a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls. An enhancement bonus does not stack with a masterwork weapon's +1 bonus on attack rolls.

You can't cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as an unarmed strike (instead, see magic fang). A monk's unarmed strike is considered a weapon, and thus it can be enhanced by this spell."

Andoran

One quick note about dodge. A monk with a 12 dex can take it, another class with a 12 dex can not.

Also, having 3 bonus feats by 6th level and getting the twf feat for free means taking dodge is much easier for a monk than a ranger.

When you look at the monk options at level 1, it isn't an unlikely selection. Although deflect arrows can be even more useful.


ciretose wrote:

Ok, so at this point, my proposed "No dump" build is a 15 at 1st, I believe the ranger would be around the same with chainmail, maybe one better as they aren't going higher than 14 with dex if they are melee focuses.

With two dump the ranger is maxing at 18, since at most they can scale mail.

Level 2 the ranger can afford a breastplate taking them to 19, where the cap out before enhancements.

Is anything I am saying incorrect.

At 1st level the Ranger can begin with 16 Str, 14 Dex, 13 Con, 7 Int, 14 Wis, 7 Cha. Or you could drop Wis to 10 and raise Int to 10 if you wanted (I depending on how much you value skills). +2 racial can go into Str or Dex (I'm not sure if there's a race in core that gives +2 Wis, except perhaps Aasimar). At 1st level, you're golden.

At 8th level, with no stat buffing items (since you were talking about the same, we can have a 16 Dex, which is plenty (+2 Dex). No loss, we're still good and can comfortably support a 19 AC without magic armor. Haven't actually capped out yet, because, like I noted before, we still have the option to use a cheap shield to add another +2 without magic items, bringing us to 21 before enhancements, while DPR for the monk is less than our DPR with a 1 hander. So 19 pre-magic/buffs while in DPR mode, and 21 pre-magic/buffs in AC mode.

Now if we want to talk equipment, +1 to the armor and +1 to the shield will cost 1,000 gp each, or 2,000 gp for a +2 AC, bringing us to 23. Amulet and Ring brings us to 6,000 gp spent for another +2, bringing us to AC 25 (23 in DPR mode). No money spent on stat buffs.

Monk grabs ring and amulet for 4,000 gp, bracer for 1,000 gp. To raise it higher, you need 4,000 gp for a +2 Dex or Wis (preferably Wis since it applies to your Flat-Footed so better investment, plus Stunning Fist if you have it). That would be 9,000 gp. Both might invest in a +2 Strength item, though I think the Ranger might instead grab a +2 Dex item and spring for a mithral breastplate, which gives him a slightly better AC, 18 Dex, less check penalties, no movement penalty, etc. Extra cash between the two would be distributed based on what they want the most (for the Ranger, I'd probably go with a couple of pearls of power I, maybe some boots of speed, cloak of resistance, and maybe some wands for the party's benefit; or maybe an extra masterwork weapon or two; maybe a +4 Str composite bow?).

Basically, if you try to pump damage to keep up or exceed the Ranger's 1-handed damage, then you are going to lose in AC noticeably. I notice you prefer Str monks (as do I) so optimizing for AC, particularly at these levels, isn't really very effective IMHO. If you go for melee hit and damage, you suffer in AC. Go for AC, you suffer in damage.

The part that actually hurts my feelings a bit ('cause I like the idea of monks) is the fact this is a Ranger. Rangers aren't generally heralded as especially awesome in terms of one-handed damage and AC (more or less just average for a warrior class, which is why Rangers get other useful features). It's not the same as trying to match a Fighter or Paladin in damage or survivability. Just the Ranger, who is kind of the "lots of different stuff warrior", which kind of makes him closest to the monk in terms of defined roles (not much of a defined role, exactly).

Quote:

I don't see why haste wouldn't apply when magic weapon applies. But we can FAQ it.

"Magic weapon gives a weapon a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls. An enhancement bonus does not stack with a masterwork weapon's +1 bonus on attack rolls.

You can't cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as an unarmed strike (instead, see magic fang). A monk's unarmed strike is considered a weapon, and thus it can be enhanced by this spell."

PRD-Monk, Unarmed Strike wrote:
A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
PRD-Haste wrote:

Targets one creature/level, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart

The transmuted creatures move and act more quickly than normal. This extra speed has several effects.

When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with one natural or manufactured weapon.

Haste does not enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons. It specifically targets creatures and gives those creatures a new effect. Since the monk's unarmed strikes are neither natural nor manufactured, the monk cannot use an unarmed strike for the attack given by haste.

PRD-Magic Weapon wrote:

Target weapon touched

Magic weapon gives a weapon a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls. An enhancement bonus does not stack with a masterwork weapon's +1 bonus on attack rolls.

You can't cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as an unarmed strike (instead, see magic fang). A monk's unarmed strike is considered a weapon, and thus it can be enhanced by this spell.

Magic weapon targets a weapon, and enhances the weapon's abilities. Due to the monk's special rules, the monk's unarmed strikes benefit.

Spells such as keen edge, bless weapon, holy sword (in the case of Paladin/Monks), disrupting weapon and similar spells also can be used on a monk's unarmed strikes.

Hopefully that covers it for right now.

EDIT:

Ciretose wrote:

One quick note about dodge. A monk with a 12 dex can take it, another class with a 12 dex can not.

Also, having 3 bonus feats by 6th level and getting the twf feat for free means taking dodge is much easier for a monk than a ranger.

When you look at the monk options at level 1, it isn't an unlikely selection. Although deflect arrows can be even more useful.

For the record, I've never assumed the Ranger had Dodge, actually. I don't really see why he'd take it either (despite qualifying for it at 1st level due to 14 Dex) unless he was going for something else that required it.

Though I have to admit, dipping 1-2 levels of monk as a Ranger is kind of appealing (monk is a great dip for lots of classes) since the +3 bump to all saves, several bonus feats, and so forth is pretty darn sexy.

Andoran

I don't agree with your haste interpretation at all, I ran a search and didn't see a ruling, so feel free to FAQ it. It makes no sense to me why they would exclude it, particularly with the new ruling on flurry that it is intended to function like TWF and TWF would allow haste.

If you give me the rangers stats, dumped as you did, I'm going to have a 20 AC at 18th without any enhancements or equipment. (+4 wis, +3 dex, +2 natural, +1 dodge) and I can get equipment to boost armor bonus cheaper than you can get an amulet of natural armor.

If you are using shields, you aren't two handing. If you aren't you are TWF with a shield, which requires additional feats, or you are ranged and not using a shield.

My position on Monk AC being fine stands. He is better than everyone but the Paladin and the fighter, and his added immunities, saves, and touch AC easily make up for the gap behind the fighters AC.

If the monk can increase his to hit, I think he is very much competitive with the ranger offensively, which is about where he should be given his other features and abilities.


ciretose wrote:
I don't agree with your haste interpretation at all, I ran a search and didn't see a ruling, so feel free to FAQ it. It makes no sense to me why they would exclude it, particularly with the new ruling on flurry that it is intended to function like TWF and TWF would allow haste.

Absolutely. Two weapon fighting does allow haste. It just can't be made with an unarmed strike because an unarmed strike is neither a natural weapon nor a manufactured weapon, and the haste spell does not target or enhance the monk's unarmed strike. You could make the attack with a monk weapon, though.

Quote:
If you give me the rangers stats, dumped as you did, I'm going to have a 20 AC at 18th without any enhancements or equipment. (+4 wis, +3 dex, +2 natural, +1 dodge) and I can get equipment to boost armor bonus cheaper than you can get an amulet of natural armor.

It's the same cost for both of us. Also, how does your attack routine fare, oh melee monster, thee?

Quote:
If you are using shields, you aren't two handing. If you aren't you are TWF with a shield, which requires additional feats, or you are ranged and not using a shield.

WTF do you keep talking about 2 handing?

Andoran

Ashiel wrote:
ciretose wrote:
I don't agree with your haste interpretation at all, I ran a search and didn't see a ruling, so feel free to FAQ it. It makes no sense to me why they would exclude it, particularly with the new ruling on flurry that it is intended to function like TWF and TWF would allow haste.

Absolutely. Two weapon fighting does allow haste. It just can't be made with an unarmed strike because an unarmed strike is neither a natural weapon nor a manufactured weapon, and the haste spell does not target or enhance the monk's unarmed strike. You could make the attack with a monk weapon, though.

Quote:
If you give me the rangers stats, dumped as you did, I'm going to have a 20 AC at 18th without any enhancements or equipment. (+4 wis, +3 dex, +2 natural, +1 dodge) and I can get equipment to boost armor bonus cheaper than you can get an amulet of natural armor.

It's the same cost for both of us. Also, how does your attack routine fare, oh melee monster, thee?

Quote:
If you are using shields, you aren't two handing. If you aren't you are TWF with a shield, which requires additional feats, or you are ranged and not using a shield.
WTF do you keep talking about 2 handing?

You have a shield. It is in one of your hands. So you aren't THF with it unless you drop it. So you can either count the shield and be a guy with a shield and a weapon, or not count it and be a THF

You are capped out at 19 with your armor unless you add enhancements, I am at 20 without any enhancements.

20 is more than 19. And I have two enhancements I can get for 1k, you have one. And again, it's touch/good saves/immunities/etc...

You can keep saying it, but unless you have a citation, I don't agree with your haste interpretation or definition of natural weapon. But that is fairly moot here, since I have no idea why you decided to throw haste into the discussion in the first place.


I don't really wanna be involved in the back-and-fourth, but it's worth noting, for the sake of argument, that Haste does work with a Monk's (and only a Monk's) UAS, because a Monk's UAS is significantly different than anybody else's. It's spelled out in the description as being treated as a natural weapon and a manufactured weapon for spells and effects that affect either.
(Which is why most people can't agree on whether a monk can take the Imp. Natural Weapon feat. The feat itself says no unarmed strikes, but the Monk's unarmed strike is vastly different than a fighter's unarmed strike.)


Neo2151 wrote:

I don't really wanna be involved in the back-and-fourth, but it's worth noting, for the sake of argument, that Haste does work with a Monk's (and only a Monk's) UAS, because a Monk's UAS is significantly different than anybody else's. It's spelled out in the description as being treated as a natural weapon and a manufactured weapon for spells and effects that affect either.

(Which is why most people can't agree on whether a monk can take the Imp. Natural Weapon feat. The feat itself says no unarmed strikes, but the Monk's unarmed strike is vastly different than a fighter's unarmed strike.)

Can you quote the hows and whys of this, Neo2151, because my copy of the online SRD says that it only applies to spells and effects that enhance the weapon. Haste does not enhance a weapon, it targets a creature. A hasted creature may make an additional attack with a natural or manufactured weapon. A monk's unarmed strike is neither.

However, Amulet of Mighty Fists (Speed) works fine for adding extra the extra attack; but that's just another example as to why monks get crapped on. Ciretose is right about monks needing decent weapons. :\

EDIT: I personally have always liked the idea of hand and footwraps myself. Kind of like the kind you see characters like Sagat from Street Fighter (or any other Mui Tai fighter) wear. Have 'em function just like unarmed strikes. You wear these suckers and your body becomes awesome. :P


It's just one of the (many, Many, MANY MANY MANY) instances of Pathfinder where you have to read between the lines.
So many rules aren't spelled out perfectly, and this is one of them. By a very literal interpretation of the RAW, you could honestly go either way. (A casualty of the fact that Pathfinder is ~not~ James Bulmahn's game; It's his updated version of someone else's game.)


Blessing of Fervor also randomly works on it.

Realistically, I think that haste on a monk is an area where pretty much any DM is either going to not notice it or let it work anyway, but we can't really start dipping into houserules when it comes to talking about class balance.

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