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Why do monks need to be as good at fighting as other melee classes?


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion

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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
ciretose wrote:
When you say something as ridiculous as "The monk is the 6th best defensive class" I am going to assume you either are trolling or haven't invested much time in the question.

Now I admit, if I had said that I would have deserved it!

What I wrote was:

"If you rank the combat classes (including the rogue), monks come about 6th out of those in the CRB."

I never said, or intended to mean, defensive class - the monk is great defensively, though their hit points are a let down and a serious weakness. I meant that if you take them overall in the four measures - attack, damage, AC and hit points - they come out overall at or close to the bottom.

However the previous paragraph did reference defences, so I can understand why you might have thought it's what I meant, although I assure you it wasn't. But then, if you had expanded with just a sentence I would have realised half a page back that I hadn't made clear what I meant to you.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Ashiel wrote:


Quote:
It may not be that they've "lost their minds" - they may be trying to design a game different from the one you think they should design. I think it's important to recognize ones assumptions. It can easy to forget that they're not generally as obvious as we like to think.
Nah, lost their minds was pretty accurate. They recently stated that the Zen Archer simply doesn't work due to a really stupid clarification on Flurry of Blows, which also prevents Monks from using Flurry of Blows while unarmed. Yep, yep, crazy. Lost their minds. I stand by that statement. If their design is breaking rules that work to intentionally make them not work, well then I will have lost what faith I had left.

Err. That was my point. They haven't lost their minds if they don't share your assumptions about what's reasonable or desirable, nor if they disagree about what "works".

I don't want to preempt their ultimate decision (another reason you should refrain from labeling them crazy - they might be about to agree with you) but they're thinking about it and, one can bet, reading all these arguments from a far greater level of understanding than the vast majority of people making the arguments.


As a reasonable contribution. I can't really see monks as a terribly viable tanking class. True great saves and a good ac. The only major problem being is that in order to get that good ac you've got to spend alarming amounts of cash or massively lower your damage output. When your damage output is low the enemies don't tend to go after you. Granted with your improved speed you can stay in the way.

So far the best thing I've seen with the monk is the fact that many of the archetypes stack which get rid of the shoddy or highly situational abilities of the base class.

Sad part is that I love the monk. The monk is a great idea. The mechanics just need work.

Andoran

shallowsoul wrote:


So you hate the Gunslinger because you are forced to follow the rules?

I hate the gunslinger for failing to be a gunslinger worth playing, and therefore precluding a good gunslinger that is worth playing from being created

One of the many reasons I feel it fails to be a gunslinger worth playing is that rather than using clean design balance principals, they made ammo expensive so we have even more table accounting going on to keep a class balanced.

They made the limiting factor for guns being overpowered the cost of ammunition. Which is bad design. The whole class is amazingly sloppy and poorly designed in my personal opinion. And this is particularly annoying since conceptually it is such a simple and straightforward class.

The whole integration of firearms was incredibly poorly executed, IMHO.

YMMV.

Andoran

Dabbler wrote:
ciretose wrote:
When you say something as ridiculous as "The monk is the 6th best defensive class" I am going to assume you either are trolling or haven't invested much time in the question.

Now I admit, if I had said that I would have deserved it!

What I wrote was:

"If you rank the combat classes (including the rogue), monks come about 6th out of those in the CRB."

I never said, or intended to mean, defensive class - the monk is great defensively, though their hit points are a let down and a serious weakness. I meant that if you take them overall in the four measures - attack, damage, AC and hit points - they come out overall at or close to the bottom.

However the previous paragraph did reference defences, so I can understand why you might have thought it's what I meant, although I assure you it wasn't. But then, if you had expanded with just a sentence I would have realised half a page back that I hadn't made clear what I meant to you.

I apologize for the misunderstanding, and am glad I misunderstood your position, which would have been ridiculous if my interpretation of what you said was correct.

As to what you actually said, I agree with the nerfing of brass knuckles and the recent FOB ruling (which I have no issue with actually, if they allow unarmed attacks to be enhanced) the monk lags behind offensively, and you are correct with regards to hit points.

But they are near the top of the other two categories.


ciretose wrote:
shallowsoul wrote:


So you hate the Gunslinger because you are forced to follow the rules?

I hate the gunslinger for failing to be a gunslinger worth playing, and therefore precluding a good gunslinger that is worth playing from being created

One of the many reasons I feel it fails to be a gunslinger worth playing is that rather than using clean design balance principals, they made ammo expensive so we have even more table accounting going on to keep a class balanced.

They made the limiting factor for guns being overpowered the cost of ammunition. Which is bad design. The whole class is amazingly sloppy and poorly designed in my personal opinion. And this is particularly annoying since conceptually it is such a simple and straightforward class.

The whole integration of firearms was incredibly poorly executed, IMHO.

YMMV.

Agreed 100%.

Silver Crusade

ciretose wrote:
shallowsoul wrote:


So you hate the Gunslinger because you are forced to follow the rules?

I hate the gunslinger for failing to be a gunslinger worth playing, and therefore precluding a good gunslinger that is worth playing from being created

One of the many reasons I feel it fails to be a gunslinger worth playing is that rather than using clean design balance principals, they made ammo expensive so we have even more table accounting going on to keep a class balanced.

They made the limiting factor for guns being overpowered the cost of ammunition. Which is bad design. The whole class is amazingly sloppy and poorly designed in my personal opinion. And this is particularly annoying since conceptually it is such a simple and straightforward class.

The whole integration of firearms was incredibly poorly executed, IMHO.

YMMV.

It's no different with enforcing the actual rules on a Wizard. Wizards have to spend lots of money and you aren't guaranteed to find the spell or spells you want.

The Gunslinger is actually one of the most balanced classes out there.

Wish spells can get very expensive every time you cast one. 10,000gp per casting is no joke.

People also have the false assumption that in order for the Gunslinger to be a good class they have to be able to auto reload as a free action every round. Now if you want to do this you have to spend the feats and spend the gold. Now if you want to lessen this then you have the option of maybe reloading as a move action instead and only have to spend a little gold per shot. You can make your own bullets you know.

Having badass abilities can get very expensive.


LOL really your comparing wish to needing 11g per round at 1st level. They had to make a feat and give it to the gunsliger just to make it viable. Then throw on top that I'm still spending 20x what an archer is per shot and yeah it gets a bit silly.

Silver Crusade

Talonhawke wrote:
LOL really your comparing wish to needing 11g per round at 1st level. They had to make a feat and give it to the gunsliger just to make it viable. Then throw on top that I'm still spending 20x what an archer is per shot and yeah it gets a bit silly.

Yes I am and it's not as funny as you think. It's not just Wish, Wish is one of many spells that require money. Playing a Wizard "correctly" can be expensive just like playing a Gunslinger "correctly" can expensive as well.

It would make sense for a Gunslinger to be given a feat that allows him to make his own bullets.

Arrows and bullets are like night and day I'm afraid. A lot more goes into a bullet than an arrow and besides, nobody is forcing you to play a Gunslinger. You know how expensive they are and what it requires so if you don't like it the way it is then you don't play one.

To walk around dual double barreled pistols that you want to be able to reload as a free action every round is going to cost you.


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Actually in my home games we use Guns everywhere so this issue has no bearing on my home setting.

And wizards don't have a cost for most spells every shot from a gun requires that cost.

And the condesending tone regarding those of us who wanted a class balanced with abilities not cost is not needed.

And black powder muzzle loading bullets are actually much easier than arrows to make.

Throw in the fact that we get saddled with the only weapon capable of criticaly failing, a large number of abilities that require us to spend a highly limited rescource, and weapons that are more costly than magical masterwork full-plate and yeah we get a bit ticked.

Though please show me how a wizard is really that expensive.


Talonhawke wrote:

Actually in my home games we use Guns everywhere so this issue has no bearing on my home setting.

And wizards don't have a cost for most spells every shot from a gun requires that cost.

And the condesending tone regarding those of us who wanted a class balanced with abilities not cost is not needed.

And black powder muzzle loading bullets are actually much easier than arrows to make.

Throw in the fact that we get saddled with the only weapon capable of criticaly failing, a large number of abilities that require us to spend a highly limited rescource, and weapons that are more costly than magical masterwork full-plate and yeah we get a bit ticked.

Though please show me how a wizard is really that expensive.

They're not really that expensive. They get 2 spells per level for free which don't cost anything (not even scribing costs). You are allowed to purchase spells directly from other wizards, for 1/2 the cost of scribing the spell (see arcane magical writings, Magic Chapter), which means 15 gp for a 1st level spell, 60 gp for a 2nd level spell, 137 gp for a 3rd level spell, and so forth. Not nearly as expensive as actually purchasing a magical scroll.

The closest thing to arcane casters being expensive is certain spells with expensive components, but those spells tend to be decisive or almost gamebreaking (wish not withstanding, since it's far from OP these days). For example, for 1500 gp you can drop a -7 saving throw penalty on somebody. That's kind of like buying someone's death. :P

To be fair though, at 10+ gp per shot, that's excessively expensive for a standard attack. At 1st level, the highest starting wealth is 175 gp average (for warrior types). You literally poop away about 1/20th of your wealth every shot. Not cool. Fire 17 times and you've exhausted your wealth. That's relatively worse than a 20th level wizard spamming the expensive limited wish every round for 586.6 rounds.


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D'arandriel wrote:
Steve Geddes wrote:

Just to be clear. I'm not really challenging the view that monks are weak choices for a melee combatant (nor accepting it).

I was curious as to why people think that matters. Why should all melee classes be equally effective in melee (albeit via differing methods of excelling)? This seems frequently assumed, but I haven't seen many arguments for it.

The reason I think it matters is that, if the PF philosophy is not, in fact, based on such equivalency then pointing out a discrepancy in power level doesn't seem like it will be very fruitful. (I'm reminded of the discussion regarding the separatist cleric, for example).

I think it matters because there's lots of people who would really like to play a martial artist (I'm not talking about the monk archetype), which has always been represented by the monk class. Unfortunately, every iteration of D&D that has included the monk has been completely underwhelming. In an effort to maintain balance between the classes, the monk has always been reduced to a secondary or support fighter. I've always felt that the classes are inherently unbalanced as it is, and there will never be a perfect balance between the classes. I doubt it would tip the scales significantly and make the monks unbalancing if the monks had d10 HPs, full BAB and proficiency (and yes, the ability to flurry) with martial weapons for starters. At the end of the day, it matters because the monk can be a great class to play (and by great I don't mean overpowered, I just mean plain old fun), but as it is now, playing a monk strictly by the rules causes far too much angst for far too many people...

A player once wanted a tougher monk, so we took away the base speed boost and a few other things, increased the rate of damage ascension and dodge bonus. It went on to be quite the tank.

Silver Crusade

Ashiel wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:

Actually in my home games we use Guns everywhere so this issue has no bearing on my home setting.

And wizards don't have a cost for most spells every shot from a gun requires that cost.

And the condesending tone regarding those of us who wanted a class balanced with abilities not cost is not needed.

And black powder muzzle loading bullets are actually much easier than arrows to make.

Throw in the fact that we get saddled with the only weapon capable of criticaly failing, a large number of abilities that require us to spend a highly limited rescource, and weapons that are more costly than magical masterwork full-plate and yeah we get a bit ticked.

Though please show me how a wizard is really that expensive.

They're not really that expensive. They get 2 spells per level for free which don't cost anything (not even scribing costs). You are allowed to purchase spells directly from other wizards, for 1/2 the cost of scribing the spell (see arcane magical writings, Magic Chapter), which means 15 gp for a 1st level spell, 60 gp for a 2nd level spell, 137 gp for a 3rd level spell, and so forth. Not nearly as expensive as actually purchasing a magical scroll.

The closest thing to arcane casters being expensive is certain spells with expensive components, but those spells tend to be decisive or almost gamebreaking (wish not withstanding, since it's far from OP these days). For example, for 1500 gp you can drop a -7 saving throw penalty on somebody. That's kind of like buying someone's death. :P

To be fair though, at 10+ gp per shot, that's excessively expensive for a standard attack. At 1st level, the highest starting wealth is 175 gp average (for warrior types). You literally poop away about 1/20th of your wealth every shot. Not cool. Fire 17 times and you've exhausted your wealth. That's relatively worse than a 20th level wizard spamming the expensive limited wish every round for 586.6 rounds.

The two problems that always seem to be conveniently left out. Other magic users do not have to sell you any of their spells and places that will actually have scrolls for sale. The Gunslinger can actually make his own bullets at half the cost. Any DM that is going to allow firearms will have to allow the production of bullets seeing as the Gunslinger doesn't get free bullets every two levels.

Now a Gunslinger can make 30 bullets and it will only cost him 15 gold.

Advanced Firearms are going to be a bit more costly. Now once metal cartridges are made they can be used over and over again. You can create metal cartridges for 7gp each or you can create the alchemical cartridges for about 6gp each. Now what the alchemical cartridges do is they lower the loading time by one action but that is a perfect tradeoff, if you want to load faster then you have to pay the price.

Firearms are very expensive and the books make that known.

Shadow Lodge

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shallowsoul wrote:

The Gunslinger can actually make his own bullets at half the cost. Any DM that is going to allow firearms will have to allow the production of bullets seeing as the Gunslinger doesn't get free bullets every two levels.

Now a Gunslinger can make 30 bullets and it will only cost him 15 gold.

Actually, it's considerably cheaper than that. Cartridges and firearms can be crafted at half price, but bullets and black powder can be crafted at only 10% of the listed price. This means that a charge of black powder costs 1GP, and a single bullet is only 1SP.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jak the Looney Alchemist wrote:
As a reasonable contribution. I can't really see monks as a terribly viable tanking class. True great saves and a good ac. The only major problem being is that in order to get that good ac you've got to spend alarming amounts of cash or massively lower your damage output. When your damage output is low the enemies don't tend to go after you. Granted with your improved speed you can stay in the way.

I don't think anyone wanted to get the monk to tank, merely to be bale to do something reliably.

ciretose wrote:
I apologize for the misunderstanding, and am glad I misunderstood your position, which would have been ridiculous if my interpretation of what you said was correct.

My apologies also! Glad we got that cleared up.

ciretose wrote:
As to what you actually said, I agree with the nerfing of brass knuckles and the recent FOB ruling (which I have no issue with actually, if they allow unarmed attacks to be enhanced) the monk lags behind offensively, and you are correct with regards to hit points.

I can live with the FOB ruling if they make it TWF in fact and not just like TWF. Otherwise I just cannot see the point.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Late to this party but my 2 cents (and I know I'm repeating stuff other people said):

A monk should NOT be equally good at combat as a martial class.

But a monk SHOULD be good at what the class description says it is:

PRD wrote:
These warrior-artists search out methods of battle beyond swords and shields, finding weapons within themselves just as capable of crippling or killing as any blade.

The monks' "weapons within themselves" -- their unarmed strikes -- are NOT "just as capable of crippling or killing as any blade." Monks hit less often and do less damage, and at higher levels when other classes easily get bonuses they need from gear they can easily afford, the monk struggles.

If their unarmed strikes are "just as" capable, then the class should show this. It does not. They are not "just as capable."

They shouldn't be as good as fighting as martial classes, but they should excel in their one, very specific combat area of expertise, and they do not.

The fact of the matter is, a barbarian with the drunken pugilist archetype or any fighter with the Close or Monk weapon specialization and a few weapon focus and specialization feats for Unarmed Strike, will in fact be vastly superior to monks at unarmed fighting---what they lack in damage dice they will more than make up in bonuses and an ability to build Strength over all other stats, neither things the monk has any access to whatsoever. And I am not sure that should be the case. Even if the Barbarian or Fighter should be GOOD at unarmed fighting (and they should be), a monk should have their own unique tricks that make them at least be somewhat competitive--IN THIS VERY SPECIFIC AREA. They do not -- the ability to bypass DR/magic, lawful, and if you play high level games past when most APs end, adamantine, is all they've got. Flurry is nothing compared to an unarmed specialized fighter with TWF. The only useful, unique thing related to unarmed attacks they get is Stunning Fist at 1st level with its extra abilities, and that's it.

I also find it interesting that the monk's "role" description describes a number of things the monk is actually incapable of:

PRD wrote:
Role: Monks excel at overcoming even the most daunting perils, striking where it's least expected, and taking advantage of enemy vulnerabilities. Fleet of foot and skilled in combat, monks can navigate any battlefield with ease, aiding allies wherever they are needed most.

They don't "strike where it's least expected" -- they have no surprise abilities, and their abundant step ability explicitly prevents them from attacking right after they use it. They have no abilities that are specifically geared toward "taking advantage of enemy vulnerabilities". Maybe if the enemy has a low CMD to grapple. But in fact the first sentence actually sounds more like the rogue.

The monk IS fleet of foot, that's true, but can't use his mobility and also focus on using one of his key class features, flurry of blows.

Skilled in combat? No. They're not bad at some combat maneuvers, that's it.

"Aiding allies wherever they are needed most" -- they have 0 party support abilities.

And people wonder why I think the monk role is muddy...


Dabbler wrote:


I don't think anyone wanted to get the monk to tank, merely to be bale to do something reliably.

So people want him to be sturdy? Sturdy is nice, it helps, but the question is what is it helping. He's not tanking. He's not a heavy damage dealer. Without archetypes he has very little crowd control.

I think this is my problem with the monk powers as written. They lack a focused direction other than sturdy.

Edit: I posted before I read your post. DeathQuaker I agree with your statement about his role being muddy. What is a monk supposed to be focused on from the eyes of the devs?


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Jak the Looney Alchemist wrote:
Edit: I posted before I read your post. DeathQuaker I agree with your statement about his role being muddy. What is a monk supposed to be focused on from the eyes of the devs?

Just this. At the stated role, the monk does not deliver - indeed cannot deliver. That's why it keeps coming back to attack bonus and unarmed damage and bypassing DR. The monk cannot strike enemies where they are most vulnerable when they have problems striking enemies at all.


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Back to the original question: Why do Monks need to be as good at fighting as other melee classes?

The most obvious answer, is because Monk is supposed to be a Melee class. Nothing is quite as bad as not being capable in your assigned role.

Lets talk in a more general manner though. Classes are not balanced against each other, they are balanced against their role. All of the normal Martial Classes have a role specifically tailored to deal with two of three things: being able to take hits in melee, skill-based scenarios, and doing massive damage. Some classes Gish a little, doing a little bit of two of those three (but only a little), while taking a third. They are rare though.

Fighter: Taking Hits and Doing Massive Damage

Barbarian: Taking Hits and Doing Massive Damage

Rogue: Skill Based Scenarios, and (when conditions are right) doing massive damage. I consider the Doing Massive Damage role fulfilled, just because when the conditions ARE fulfilled, it IS particularly massive damage.

Cavalier: Gish. Taking Hits, Skill-based Scenarios if they're social in nature, Massive Damage when they've got a challenge target.

Gunslinger: WEIRD GISH! SOME skill based scenarios dependent on their weird yet thematically appropriate skill list, d10 Hit Dice means they can do SOME Taking hits, Doing Massive Damage is easy despite tricky logistics.

Monk: Cannot Take Hits, SOME Skill Based Scenarios are possible if it's within a VERY narrow scope, Massive Damage is entirely situational, and more often a punchline instead of a possibility. (See also Flurry of Misses) zero of three items filled.

Monk has no role as a Martial Class, and as expected, is not balanced to perform any one duty. Gunslinger is the only other martial class with a similarly Gished nature, the difference being it's MASSIVE accuracy and damage potential, as well as the fact that it mostly fights at a short distance away from the actual fight. That, and it's Grit mechanic works VERY well.

What to do about it? I'm in the "Monk should have Full BAB" camp. No more ridiculously ineffective Medium-BAB-With-no-Bonuses skirmishing! Just give them Full BAB with everything instead of just Maneuvers and Flurrying.

Monk damage is something of a bad joke if the Monk is not using Unarmed Strike. If they are using unarmed strike, it is reasonable. The problem of course, is that this reasonable damage won't go through because it will not hit.

Monk should be considered a "light weapon fighter", with some neat special abilities for attack and defense. Lower the Unarmed Strike damage dice to something more reasonable like 1d6 or 1d8 while giving it unique attributes to keep it interesting, give Monk a rising bonus to attack and damage Ala Weapon training up to about +5, make it so they can flurry with other weapons they're proficient with, and then the class will come into its own. Their feat selection will finally be matched with the other Melee Classes, as will their accuracy, fixing the MAJORITY of their problems when attacking.

After that, you either increase their skill points a little, or give them special abilities that give them more options.

And for everyone's sakes, find a way to reduce their MAD!

Gah, I'm sick to death of "fixes" that increase damage while ignoring Monk Accuracy.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If you increase accuracy you increase damage - +1 to hit is worth +2 to damage.


Fine, then everybody who does Monk homebrew rebuilds should stop adding extraneous damage bonuses, and give attack bonuses beyond weapon enhancement bonuses built into the class. Someday, Monk Magic Items will be fixed, and Monks STILL won't be able to hit all that well. Mostly because nobody ever gives them a proper bonus to accuracy. While bonus damage is nice, it's Accuracy that is and always has been the biggest issue.

And people need to figure out that the whole steadily increasing unarmed damage dice thing doesn't work. It's a mathematical failure that enhances one specific kind of damage with one specific weapon in a weak way. Tell someone playing a Fighter that their short sword can only increase in damage by increasing the dice size, period, and very quickly that person will find that they prefer the current Weapon Focus/Specialization tree. I find it particularly annoying due to the number of weapons developed by Shaolin Monks, and other similar orders throughout history, all of whom made skillful use of a variety of things that WEREN'T fighting unarmed. Fighting unarmed should be a BIG option while playing a monk, but not the only possible option for a monk that is effective.

Whew! I feel much better getting all of that off my chest.

Andoran

ReconstructorFleet wrote:

Fine, then everybody who does Monk homebrew rebuilds should stop adding extraneous damage bonuses, and give attack bonuses beyond weapon enhancement bonuses built into the class. Someday, Monk Magic Items will be fixed, and Monks STILL won't be able to hit all that well. Mostly because nobody ever gives them a proper bonus to accuracy. While bonus damage is nice, it's Accuracy that is and always has been the biggest issue.

And people need to figure out that the whole steadily increasing unarmed damage dice thing doesn't work. It's a mathematical failure that enhances one specific kind of damage with one specific weapon in a weak way. Tell someone playing a Fighter that their short sword can only increase in damage by increasing the dice size, period, and very quickly that person will find that they prefer the current Weapon Focus/Specialization tree. I find it particularly annoying due to the number of weapons developed by Shaolin Monks, and other similar orders throughout history, all of whom made skillful use of a variety of things that WEREN'T fighting unarmed. Fighting unarmed should be a BIG option while playing a monk, but not the only possible option for a monk that is effective.

Whew! I feel much better getting all of that off my chest.

If monks were able to enhance unarmed attacks, even if just for accuracy, they would be equal to TWF for accuracy.

This would personally, be enough for me. They had it with brass knuckles, then took it away. I agree with reasons they did so, thematically, but not replacing it was a problem.


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ciretose wrote:

If monks were able to enhance unarmed attacks, even if just for accuracy, they would be equal to TWF for accuracy.

This would personally, be enough for me. They had it with brass knuckles, then took it away. I agree with reasons they did so, thematically, but not replacing it was a problem.

I agree, it's accuracy that it needs and enhancement it needs. The main reason the monk struggles is because the main damaging feature is their unarmed strike, and the unarmed strike is tough to enhance.

That's why an enhancement to hit would help so much: you can then use the AoMF for the properties with your higher damage, and actually connect and have a chance of getting through DR.


Okay, Reconstructor Fleet. How about this then? I think it addresses most of the issues brought up here.

A Monk that Doesn't Suck Wind

Spoiler:

Alignment: Any lawful.

Hit Die: d8.

BAB: Full

Good Saves: Fort; Reflex; and Will

Class Skills: Acrobatics (Dex); Climb (Str); Craft (Int); Escape Artist (Dex); Perception (Wis); Perform (Cha); Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex); Sense Motive (Wis); Stealth (Dex); and Swim (Str). See monastic skill training (below) for additional class skills.

Skill Ranks per Level: 4 + Int modifier.

Weapons and Armor Proficiency: Monks are proficient with the club, crossbow (light or heavy), dagger, handaxe, javelin, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shortspear, short sword, shuriken, siangham, sling, and spear. Monks are not proficient with any armor or shields. When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses his AC bonus from intuitive defense, as well as his agility training, fast movement, and flurry of blows abilities (see below).

Intuitive Defense (Ex): When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds his Wisdom bonus (if any) to his AC and his CMD. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC and CMD at 4th level. This additional bonus increases by 1 for every four monk levels thereafter.
These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed. He loses these bonuses when he is immobilized or helpless, when he wears any armor, when he uses a shield, or when he carries a medium or heavy load.

Bonus Feat: At 1st level, 2nd level, and every 4 levels gained as a monk thereafter, a monk may select a bonus feat. These feats must be taken from the following list: Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Improved Grapple, Improved Sunder, and Weapon Focus.
At 6th level, the following feats are added to the list: Improved Blind-Fight, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, Ki Throw, and Mobility.
At 10th level, the following feats are added to the list: Combat Expertise, Greater Blind-Fight, Improved Critical, Medusa’s Wrath, Snatch Arrows, and Spring Attack.
At 14th level, the following feats are added to the list: Greater Bull Rush, Greater Disarm, Greater Grapple, Greater Sunder, and Greater Trip.
A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them.

Fast Movement (Ex/Su): A monk’s land speed is faster than the norm for his race by +10 feet. This benefit only applies when he is wearing no armor and is not carrying a medium or heavy load. This ability is extraordinary.
At 4th level, when a monk gains access to his ki pool (see below), the character can achieve literally superhuman bursts of speed for limited periods of time. As a free action, a monk can spend 1 point of ki to increase his speed by +20 feet. This speed increase lasts for 1 round per monk class level. At 8th level, and again every four levels gained thereafter, the monk's speed when using this ability increases by an additional +10 feet, to a maximum increase of +60 feet at 20th level.
The bonus speed granted to a monk through the use of this ability is a supernatural ability.

Monastic Skill Training: Different monasteries emphasize different skill sets for the monks that they train. At first level, a monk may choose any three of the following skills: Diplomacy (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (Any) (Int), or Linguistics (Int). These skills become class skills for the monk. Once chosen, these selections are forever after fixed, even if the monk places no skill ranks in the specific skills selected.

Unarmed Strike (Ex): A monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s unarmed attack may be made with his fists, elbows, knees, feet, or even his head. This means that a monk may make unarmed strikes with his hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply his full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes.
Usually a monk’s unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but he can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on his attack roll. He has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling.
A monk deals more damage with his unarmed strikes than normal; from 1st-5th level the damage is 1d6. This increases to 1d8 at 7th level and to 2d6 at 14th level.
The unarmed damage is for all monks, regardless of size. The techniques a monk learns do not alter the base damage of the class due to being either smaller or larger, although both Strength bonuses and penalties apply as normal.

Stunning Fist (Ex): The monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels gained as a monk thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This condition replaces stunning the target for 1 round, and a successful saving throw still negates the effect.
At 4th level, he can choose to make the target fatigued. At 8th level, he can make the target sickened for 1 minute. At 12th level, he can make the target staggered for 1d6+1 rounds. At 16th level, he can permanently blind or deafen the target. At 20th level, he can paralyze the target for 1d6+1 rounds. The monk must choose which condition will apply before the attack roll is made. These effects do not stack with themselves (a creature sickened by Stunning Fist cannot become nauseated if hit by Stunning Fist again), but additional hits do increase the duration.
A monk can select which condition to apply each time he makes a stunning fist attack, limited only by his monk level.
A monk gains one use of this feat for every monk level he possesses, as described in the Stunning Fist feat.

Evasion (Ex): At 2nd level or higher, a monk can avoid damage from many area-effect attacks. If a monk makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, he instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if a monk is wearing no armor and is not carrying a medium or heavy load. A helpless monk does not gain the benefit of evasion.

Flurry of Blows (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so he may make one additional attack at his highest attack bonus using any combination of the following weapons: club, dagger, handaxe, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shortspear, short sword, shuriken, siangham, spear, or unarmed strike. New weapons designated with the monk special property may be added to this list at a later date. All of the attacks made by a monk when using flurry of blows receive a -2 penalty to hit.
At 8th level, a monk gains a second bonus attack at his highest attack bonus when he uses flurry of blows, at an additional penalty of -5.
At 15th level, a monk gains a third bonus attack at his highest attack bonus when he uses flurry of blows, at an additional penalty of -10.
A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with a flurry of blows, whether the monk is fighting with two weapons, a weapon and an unarmed strike, a double weapon, a thrown weapon, or a two-handed weapon.
A monk may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of a flurry of blows. If the monk substitutes one of his highest attack bonus attacks for these maneuvers, then they are made at the monk’s normal CMB. If the monk uses a secondary or tertiary iterative attack, the monk applies either a -5 (for the second attack) or -10 (for the third attack) to his CMB for this attempt at a maneuver. A monk may can make multiple combat maneuvers in a single round, up to a limit of the maximum number of attacks that he may make in a flurry of blows.
A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows.
A monk cannot use two-weapon fighting (see combat) to gain additional attacks when using flurry of blows.
A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks (unless he has taken the Feral Combat Training feat).
A monk does not suffer any penalties when using flurry of blows (such as those normally associated with two-weapon fighting), regardless of whether he wields a light weapon, a one-hand weapon, a double-weapon, or a two-hand weapon.
A monk may wield two-weapons, a double-weapon, or a two-handed weapon when using flurry of blows (provided that the weapon is a special monk weapon) and may use unarmed strikes and weapons wielded in any combination during his flurry of blows attacks.

Maneuver Training (Ex): At 3rd level, a monk uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus when calculating his Combat Maneuver Bonus and his Combat Maneuver Defense. Base attack bonuses granted from other classes are unaffected and are added normally.

Still Mind (Ex): A monk of 3rd level or higher gains a +2 bonus on saving throws against enchantment spells and effects. This bonus increases in value to +4 at 10th level and to +6 at 17th level.

Fighter Training (Ex): A monk of 4th level or higher may select any feat that requires actual levels in the fighter class as a prerequisite. For the purpose of those feats, a monk’s effective fighter level is his monk class level -3. This stacks with actual fighter levels (if any) possessed by the character.

Ki Pool (Su): At 4th level, a monk begins to slowly access his internal ki, a supernatural energy that he can use to accomplish amazing feats. The monk gains a pool of ki points, equal to his monk level + his Wisdom modifier. By spending 1 point from his ki pool as a swift action, a monk can invoke any one of the following options: he can gain a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round; he can gain a +4 insight bonus to his attacks for 1 round; he can gain a +4 insight bonus to his damage for 1 round; or he can gain one additional attack at his highest attack bonus when he uses his flurry of blows ability (see above).
A monk who moves or charges (including the use of the feat Spring Attack) and then makes a single attack with his unarmed strikes or a special monk weapon can spend 1 point from his ki pool as a swift action to gain one additional attack at his highest attack bonus.
A monk gains additional powers that consume points from his ki pool as he gains levels. The ki pool is replenished each morning after 8 hours of rest or meditation; these hours do not need to be consecutive.

Ki Strike (Su): As long as a monk of 4th level or higher has at least 1 point in his ki pool, he can make a ki strike. When using ki strike, a monk’s unarmed strikes are considered magic weapons for the purposes of affecting incorporeal creatures and overcoming damage reduction.
At 7t level, a monk using ki strike overcomes damage reduction as if using a lawful weapon.
At 10th level, a monk using ki strike overcomes damage reduction as if using a cold iron or silver weapon.
At 13th level, a monk using ki strike overcomes damage reduction as if using an adamantine weapon and ignores hardness of less than 20 when striking an object with ki strike.
At 16th level, a monk using ki strike overcomes damage reduction based on alignment.

Catfall (Su): At 4th level or higher, a monk can fall incredible distances without suffering damage. When falling, a monk always lands on his feet. In addition, he reduces the damage inflicted from a fall by 1d6 per monk level he possesses, to a maximum reduction of 20d6 at 20th level. Unlike magical spells (such as feather fall) with similar effects, a monk is not slowed during his descent, making this ability a favored method for higher level monks to rapidly descend great distances quickly. A monk gains the benefits of this ability so long as he has at least one point of ki remaining in his ki pool.

Agility Training (Ex): At 5th level, a monk adds one-half his level (round down) to all Acrobatics skill checks and to the monk’s choice of either Climb or Swim skill checks. In addition, he always counts as having a running start when making jump checks using Acrobatics. By spending 1 point from his ki pool as a swift action, a monk can gain an additional +20 bonus on Acrobatics checks made to jump for 1 round.

Monastic Weapons Training (Ex): Starting at 5th level, a monk gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when using any of the following weapons: club, dagger, handaxe, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shortspear, short sword, shuriken, siangham, spear, or unarmed strike. New weapons designated with the monk special property may be added to this list at a later date. This bonus increases to +2 at 9th level, and by an additional +1 every four levels gained thereafter as a monk to a maximum bonus of +4 at 17th level.
A monk may add this bonus to any combat maneuver checks made with the listed weapons.
This bonus applies to the monk's Combat Maneuver Defense when defending against disarm and sunder attempts made against the character, if he is wielding one of the listed weapons.
This bonus is not an enhancement bonus and is not magical in nature; it instead reflects the training and honing of a monk's martial abilities.

Purity of Body (Ex): At 5th level, a monk gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases (such as lycanthropy and mummy rot).

Light as a Feather (Su): At 5th level, a monk may spend 1 point of ki to either use levitate or water walk, as per the spells, for a duration of 1 round per class level. When the monk uses light as a feather he may neither run nor may he charge; the monk may only use this ability if he is lightly encumbered.

Servant of Order (Su): At 6th level, a monk gains immunity to fear effects.

Speak with Animals (Ex): At 6th level, a monk can converse with any creature of the animal type, as per the spell speak with animals. Such conversations are limited by the animal’s intelligence (or lack thereof).

Wholeness of Body (Su): At 7th level or higher, a monk can heal his own wounds as a standard action. He can expend 1 point from his ki pool to heal a number of hit points of damage equal to 2d8 + his monk level + his Wisdom bonus (if any). A monk can instead spend 2 points from his ki pool to use this ability as a move action. If the monk spends 3 points from his ki pool, he may use this ability as a swift action.

Spiritual Endurance (Ex): At 8th level, a monk's training and inner reserves of ki allow him to comfortably exist in environments and conditions that would quickly sap the strength from others. He is considered to be under the influence of an endure elements spell at all times, ignoring the extremes of heat and cold. In addition, he may go for a number of days equal to one-half his monk level without eating or drinking before beginning to suffer adverse effects. He requires only four hours of sleep per night, provided that he also meditates for at least four hours as well. While meditating, a monk remains fully aware of his surroundings and may make Perception checks without penalty.

Improved Evasion (Ex): At 9th level, a monk’s evasion ability improves. He still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks, but henceforth he takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless monk does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.

Duty Never Tires (Ex): At 10th level, a monk gains Endurance as a bonus feat. Furthermore, by spending 1 ki point as a swift action, he can ignore the effects of fatigue for 10 minutes per monk level. This ability only suppresses the fatigue; it does not remove it.

Diamond Body (Ex): At 11th level, a monk gains immunity to all poisons, including magical and supernatural poisons.

Abundant Step (Su): At 12th level or higher, a monk can slip magically between spaces, as if using the spell dimension door. Using this ability is a move action that consumes 2 points from his ki pool. His caster level for this effect is equal to his monk level. Unlike the normal use of dimension door, the monk may take any remaining actions in a round after using this ability. He may take willing creatures with him so long as he does not exceed his maximum carrying capacity.

Unfettered Speech (Ex): At 12th level, a monk can converse with any creature of the plant type, as per the spell speak with plants. Such conversations are limited by the plant’s intelligence (or lack thereof). A monk can also converse with any creature of the magical beast type that has an Intelligence score of 1 or 2 (for the purpose of this ability, treat magical beasts as though they are animals and refer to the spell speak with animals).

Diamond Soul (Ex): At 13th level, a monk gains spell resistance equal to his current monk level +11. In order to affect the monk with a spell, a spellcaster must get a result on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) that equals or exceeds the monk’s spell resistance. A monk gains the benefits of this ability so long as he has at least one point of ki remaining in his ki pool.

Cloud Step (Su): At 13th level, a monk may spend 2 points from his ki pool to air walk, as per the spell, for a duration of 1 round per 2 class levels (round down). When the monk uses cloud step he may neither run nor may he charge; the monk may only use this ability if he is lightly encumbered.

Champion of Order (Su): At 14th level, a monk gains immunity to the confusion and insanity spells, as well as spell-like or supernatural effects that create similar effects.

Quivering Palm (Su): Starting at 15th level, a monk can set up vibrations within the body of another creature that can thereafter be fatal if the monk so desires. He can use this quivering palm attack once per day, and he must announce his intent before making his attack roll. Creatures immune to critical hits cannot be affected. Otherwise, if the monk strikes successfully and the target takes damage from the blow, the quivering palm attack succeeds. Thereafter, the monk can try to slay the victim at any later time, as long as the attempt is made within a number of days equal to his monk level. To make such an attempt, the monk merely wills the target to die (a free action), and unless the target makes a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + ½ the monk’s level + the monk’s Wisdom modifier) it dies. If the saving throw is successful, the target instead takes twice the damage of the monk's unarmed strike (as if the monk had threatened and then confirmed a critical hit) and the quivering palm attack ends; the target may still die if he suffers enough damage from this attack to reduce him to negative hit points equal to his Constitution score. A monk can have no more than one quivering palm in effect at one time. If a monk uses quivering palm while another is still in effect, the previous effect is negated. This ability is a death effect.
At 17th level, and again at 19th level, the monk gains one additional daily use of this ability.

Tongues (Ex): At 16th level, a monk can converse with any creature, as per the spell tongues. To communicate, a creature must be within 30 feet of the monk and both the monk and creature must have line-of-sight to each other. Furthermore, the monk is able to commune with stone (as per the druid spell stone tell), however to commune with stone the monk must be touching the stone object.

Timeless Body (Ex): At 17th level, a monk no longer takes penalties to his ability scores to his physical ability scores for aging and cannot be magically aged. Any such penalties that he has already taken, however, remain in place. The initial roll made by the DM for the character’s maximum age (according to race) is discarded, and a new maximum age calculated. The random dice are maximized. For example, a human monk who reaches 17th level will live to a ripe old age of 110 years, while an elf monk could see 750 years. Age bonuses to the monk’s mental ability scores still accrue, and the monk still dies of old age when his time is up. This ability is not the same as immortality, and the monk can always die before his time due to violence.

Stalwart Soul (Ex): At 18th level, a monk no longer suffers any penalties for being fatigued (he still remains fatigued, however, for purposes of exhaustion). If the monk becomes exhausted, he may spend 2 ki points as a swift action to ignore the effects of exhaustion for 1 minute per monk level. This ability only suppresses the exhaustion; it does not remove it. A monk gains the benefits of this ability so long as he has at least one point of ki remaining in his ki pool.

Empty Body (Su): At 19th level, a monk gains the ability to assume an ethereal state for 1 minute as though using the spell etherealness. Using this ability is a move action that consumes 3 points from his ki pool. This ability only affects the monk and cannot be used to make other creatures ethereal.

Perfect Self: At 20th level, a monk transcends his mortal limitations. He gains blindsight in a 30-foot radius. He gains immunity versus all hostile mind-affecting spells, spell-like abilities, and other effects (this replaces and does not stack with the still mind ability), as well as being the recipient of constant nondetection and undetectable alignment effects (as per the spells). Furthermore, a monk who has attained this level of experience can go for twenty days without food or drink before suffering from ill effects. This replaces the duration listed under the duty never tires ability (see above). Monks of this level of experience also gain damage reduction 10/Chaotic.
The few monks who reach this level of achievement often retire from adventuring to explore what they are becoming. Only those with the strongest of ties to their companions and their homelands remain, but even these will eventually simply vanish one night, never to return.

Ex-Monks: A monk who becomes nonlawful cannot gain new levels as a monk but retains all monk abilities.

Unarmed damage dice goes down, but the class has TRUE full BAB, and not the virtual kind. He gets Weapon Training (by another name, but the fighter class feature just the same). Flurry is fixed, and the monk can spend a point of ki to get an extra attack on a standard action, or a charge, or when using Spring Attack. He remains fast, he keeps his acrobatic abilities, he can't wear armor, he can talk with animals, and plants, and eventually everything; he can heal himself. Teleport limited distances (and ACT afterwards in the same round), become ethereal, and eventually ignores all types of DR except DR/-. Only thing it doesn't address is MAD, but I've got a feat for that. I'll post a link as soon as I dig it up.

Anyway, I hope you like it, it does most of what you are asking for.

Master Arminas


And here is link to the feat Weapon Intuition. Basically, if you have Wis 13, a BAB of +4, and the Weapon Finesse feat, you add your Wisdom to melee and thrown weapon damage instead of Strength. Doesn't do much for the levels 1-3, but starting at 4th, you can concentrate on Dex and Wis (and a little Con). By not letting you pick up this feat at 1st, Str doesn't become a pure dump stat, which would make for a pretty weird monk: could you imagine Bruce Lee with a Strength score of 7? I mean, come on. This way, you still have an incentive, early on, to have a Strength of 12, 13, or 14. But after 4th, you can concentrate on pumping up Dexterity and Wisdom, reducing your MAD. It's like anger management for monks.

Okay, upgraded version.

Weapon Intuition (Combat)

You rely on your intuition to deliver damage in melee combat, as opposed to brute strength.

Prerequisites: Wis 13, Weapon Finesse, base attack bonus +3.
Benefit: With a light weapon, rapier, whip, spiked chain, or another weapon eligable for use with the feat Weapon Finese of a size appropriate a creature of your size category, you may use your Wisdom modifier instead of your Strength modifier on melee damage rolls and damage rolls with thrown weapons.
Special: Natural weapons are considered light weapons. Monks may use this feat with any weapon designated as a monk weapon, in addition to weapons normally made allowed with the weapon finesse feat.

Master Arminas


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I think that's kind of redundant with the Agile property out on weapons now.


Why do monks need to be as good at fighting as other melee classes?

Because what else do they do? Their skill selection is nothing special. They don't work as a party face. They can't cast spells. They don't buff or heal others.

They excel at chasing down runners and harassing casters. Neither of which is something to base a class on.

I've only seen 3 effective monks in play. A Zen Archer, a Sohei and a vanilla monk with a 30 point buy when the rest of us got 20 (DM felt bad for the rookie player).


Dabbler wrote:
I think that's kind of redundant with the Agile property out on weapons now.

Yep. But you can save a +1 bonus on your amulet of mighty fists for enhancement instead of agile, giving you another +1 to hit and damage, above and beyond your Dex (to hit) and Wis (to damage). And the feat doesn't go away if your weapon or amulet gets sundered, disarmed, dispelled, stolen, or if you walk into an anti-magic field. lol

Master Arminas


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Master Arminas... I think you've done it. I think that literally covers all my complaints. Okay, MAD is still there, but the two feats (Weapon Intuition and Weapon Finesse) could counteract a LOT of that.

That is a fantastic monk. Probably should be put in Advice/Homebrew instead of here. Still! That is by far the best version of monk I've seen to date! NICE! :D

Although I don't think they need "Fighter Training." That might be overdoing it a little. :( Think about it, that DEFINITELY cuts in on a Fighter's turf.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'll add my 2p worth on the AC front: I have found that AC is the one area the monk is generally keeping up with the other combat classes at. That said, this is usually at the price of any real offensive capability. You can manage AC because it gets basic, static bonuses regardless - this is what the monk's attack bonus needs, somehow.

Currently I'm running a 2nd level monk with an AC of 18. The party paladin has an AC of 20, though, and I do not doubt that until we get enough levels to get some magic, I'm going to be lagging far behind. My monk is working great, but we diced for stats and the dice were very kind - 15/17/14/16/14/14 is hard to beat.

Andoran

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Ashiel wrote:
Again. Normal monk + psionics = win. Don't even need the Pathfinder Ki-Points. Just 3.5 Monk + Psionics = playable not sucky monk.

I'm thinking for my 3.Tri version of the rules, I'll make it a class feature to choose between the Psychic Warrior power progression and Healer spell progression, allowing the player to decide if he wants to be a skirmisher or combat medic.

Andoran

Dabbler wrote:

I'll add my 2p worth on the AC front: I have found that AC is the one area the monk is generally keeping up with the other combat classes at. That said, this is usually at the price of any real offensive capability. You can manage AC because it gets basic, static bonuses regardless - this is what the monk's attack bonus needs, somehow.

Currently I'm running a 2nd level monk with an AC of 18. The party paladin has an AC of 20, though, and I do not doubt that until we get enough levels to get some magic, I'm going to be lagging far behind. My monk is working great, but we diced for stats and the dice were very kind - 15/17/14/16/14/14 is hard to beat.

It is also helpful that next level you will have twice his movement.

Grand Lodge

Yes . Crafting cost per cartridge is only 1 gp.

Andoran

Excuse me, I would have 24k left. I only spent 9k (5k for belt of physical might Str + Dex +2, 2k for headband of wisdom, 1k ring of deflection, 1k bracers of armor.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
ciretose wrote:
Dabbler wrote:

I'll add my 2p worth on the AC front: I have found that AC is the one area the monk is generally keeping up with the other combat classes at. That said, this is usually at the price of any real offensive capability. You can manage AC because it gets basic, static bonuses regardless - this is what the monk's attack bonus needs, somehow.

Currently I'm running a 2nd level monk with an AC of 18. The party paladin has an AC of 20, though, and I do not doubt that until we get enough levels to get some magic, I'm going to be lagging far behind. My monk is working great, but we diced for stats and the dice were very kind - 15/17/14/16/14/14 is hard to beat.

It is also helpful that next level you will have twice his movement.

It helps, but the movement is over-rated. Right now we are still at the stage where my Weapon Finesse racks up my attack bonus beyond his (he dumped strength for charisma) at the moment, but he will end up dishing out more damage than me in the long run. Right now, I'm making the most of my shining.

Andoran

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Dabbler wrote:
ciretose wrote:
Dabbler wrote:

I'll add my 2p worth on the AC front: I have found that AC is the one area the monk is generally keeping up with the other combat classes at. That said, this is usually at the price of any real offensive capability. You can manage AC because it gets basic, static bonuses regardless - this is what the monk's attack bonus needs, somehow.

Currently I'm running a 2nd level monk with an AC of 18. The party paladin has an AC of 20, though, and I do not doubt that until we get enough levels to get some magic, I'm going to be lagging far behind. My monk is working great, but we diced for stats and the dice were very kind - 15/17/14/16/14/14 is hard to beat.

It is also helpful that next level you will have twice his movement.
It helps, but the movement is over-rated. Right now we are still at the stage where my Weapon Finesse racks up my attack bonus beyond his (he dumped strength for charisma) at the moment, but he will end up dishing out more damage than me in the long run. Right now, I'm making the most of my shining.

Weapon finesse? IMHO strength should be either primary or secondary ability for monk all the way.

Dex tied for 3rd with con, you can get away with a 12 and buff it later.


ReconstructorFleet wrote:

Master Arminas... I think you've done it. I think that literally covers all my complaints. Okay, MAD is still there, but the two feats (Weapon Intuition and Weapon Finesse) could counteract a LOT of that.

That is a fantastic monk. Probably should be put in Advice/Homebrew instead of here. Still! That is by far the best version of monk I've seen to date! NICE! :D

Although I don't think they need "Fighter Training." That might be overdoing it a little. :( Think about it, that DEFINITELY cuts in on a Fighter's turf.

I completely agree with this, including the 'Fighter Training' part, which coupled with the Monastic Training would give basically the same 'special abilites' of a Fighter - Fighter bonus feats and Weapon Training - to a revamped class with other special abilities (now finally functional, like Catfall and Wholeness of Body).

I should add that giving the Monk Full BaB makes redundant the Maneuver Training ability (since Monk level would really be equal to Base Attack Bonus).

Other than that, THIS is a Monk I would play without any question !!!


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Oh, duh! I didn't even think about how the higher BAB made Maneuver Training no longer needed. Okay, remove Maneuver Training and Fighter Training. Still makes a solid class, eh?

Master Arminas


Ashiel wrote:
ciretose wrote:
shallowsoul wrote:


So you hate the Gunslinger because you are forced to follow the rules?

I hate the gunslinger for failing to be a gunslinger worth playing, and therefore precluding a good gunslinger that is worth playing from being created

One of the many reasons I feel it fails to be a gunslinger worth playing is that rather than using clean design balance principals, they made ammo expensive so we have even more table accounting going on to keep a class balanced.

They made the limiting factor for guns being overpowered the cost of ammunition. Which is bad design. The whole class is amazingly sloppy and poorly designed in my personal opinion. And this is particularly annoying since conceptually it is such a simple and straightforward class.

The whole integration of firearms was incredibly poorly executed, IMHO.

YMMV.

Agreed 100%.

I'm going to third this. The cost of ammo is what totally turned me off to the class. I love grit and the grit powers... It's really a shame that it's so restricted by the economy.

Anyway, I came into this topic to say that I really find Monks boring. They can jump and they have a few skills, but a lot of the time you're stuck being a one-trick pony.

For some reason I don't feel the same way about Fighters - maybe it's the fact that they get so many feats that you aren't pigeon holed into one type of fighting style, I dunno.

Speaking of feats, the Fighting Styles look cool, and some of them are overpowered, but thanks to the number of feats involved with them, having more than one or two styles is severely suboptimal.


Counterpoint: I love Gunslinger. And there are ways to deal with the costs, and this is coming from a guy who talked his DM into letting him build Advanced Firearms, and was willing to pay the cost for that and the pain that is Metal Cartridges. The class starts off fragile, but becomes a high damage, low ammo using dynamo of close to mid range destruction.

And Master Arminas: Toss that brand-spanking-new Monk Homebrew onto the appropriate thread! I want to save that lovely looking class for later. :D


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
ciretose wrote:

Weapon finesse? IMHO strength should be either primary or secondary ability for monk all the way.

Dex tied for 3rd with con, you can get away with a 12 and buff it later.

This, to me, is half the problem with monks. Once again, you are required to choose between offence and defence - for one to be on a par with the other classes, the other has to be awful.

I mean, look at your shoalin monk. Is he a mountain of muscle? Hell no, he's a little guy barely over five feet tall. Monks being strong isn't a problem, monks needing to be strong IS a problem from the thematic concept of the class.

In my own redesign of the monk Weapon Finesse and Agile Maneuvers were integrated into the monk's abilities at 1st and 3rd level respectively to help reduce dependence on strength. It doesn't invalidate strength-built monks, but it does make the typical little guy monk more viable.

The Wraith wrote:
I completely agree with this, including the 'Fighter Training' part, which coupled with the Monastic Training would give basically the same 'special abilites' of a Fighter - Fighter bonus feats and Weapon Training - to a revamped class with other special abilities (now finally functional, like Catfall and Wholeness of Body).

This is why I'd rather the monk get a 'magic' bonus to hit rather than a 'weapon training' ability. The monk's unarmed damage is rising steadily anyway, and they end up treading on the fighter's toes.

KaptainKrunch wrote:
Anyway, I came into this topic to say that I really find Monks boring. They can jump and they have a few skills, but a lot of the time you're stuck being a one-trick pony.

Yes, this is sadly the case because so few monk concepts actually work effectively against a generic foe. This is what we want to change, opening the monk out so that they can work in different situations and be, well, as versatile as the other combat classes.


ReconstructorFleet wrote:

Counterpoint: I love Gunslinger. And there are ways to deal with the costs, and this is coming from a guy who talked his DM into letting him build Advanced Firearms, and was willing to pay the cost for that and the pain that is Metal Cartridges. The class starts off fragile, but becomes a high damage, low ammo using dynamo of close to mid range destruction.

And Master Arminas: Toss that brand-spanking-new Monk Homebrew onto the appropriate thread! I want to save that lovely looking class for later. :D

Done. A Monk That Doesn't Suck Wind

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