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Does Rogue talent Major magic allow you to qualify for Dragon disciple?


Rules Questions

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Title says it all if I have the Rogue Talent Major magic I can cast 1st levels spells with out preparing, sooo that technically meets the Requirements for Dragon Disciple? yes or no?


From the PRD: "Major Magic (Sp): A rogue with this talent gains the ability to cast a 1st-level spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list two times a day as a spell-like ability."

It doesn't say that you can cast spells sponanteously. You gain a Spell-like Ability.


Weren Wu Jen wrote:

From the PRD: "Major Magic (Sp): A rogue with this talent gains the ability to cast a 1st-level spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list two times a day as a spell-like ability."

It doesn't say that you can cast spells sponanteously. You gain a Spell-like Ability.

the DD page says this: "Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells without preparation. If the character has sorcerer levels, he must have the draconic bloodline. If the character gains levels of sorcerer after taking this class, he must take the draconic bloodline."

with out preparation means no spell book....in my mind. "has s spell like ability" is with out preparation


No. The intent is for 1st level spells from actual class levels, and the rogue major talent gives SLA's which are not spells anyway, and do not count as prerequisites for cases when spells are needed.

Andoran

Concerro is right, spell like abilities are not spells.


Casting an SLA is not casting a spell. It is casting an SLA which is spell-like by name and definition.

As another example a wizard with an arcane bond can cast first spells without preparation, since they can choose any spell in their spell, even if it is not prepared. They however, just like the someone with SLA's does not qualify for the class.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
concerro wrote:
No. The intent is for 1st level spells from actual class levels, and the rogue major talent gives SLA's which are not spells anyway, and do not count as prerequisites for cases when spells are needed.

PRD:Major Magic (Sp): A rogue with this talent gains the ability to cast a 1st-level spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list two times a day as a spell-like ability."

says I can cast spells( don't know how to bold)

the DD: "Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells without preparation"

even if it is a SLA I still CAST a spell and do so with out Preparation it never says it must be Spontaneous just with out Preparation


"Spell-Like Abilities (Sp): Spell-like abilities, as the name implies, are magical abilities that are very much like spells. Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). Spell-like abilities can be dispelled but they cannot be counterspelled or used to counterspell."
"Use Special Ability

Using a special ability is usually a standard action, but whether it is a standard action, a full-round action, or not an action at all is defined by the ability.

Spell-Like Abilities (Sp): Using a spell-like ability works like casting a spell in that it requires concentration and provokes attacks of opportunity. Spell-like abilities can be disrupted. If your concentration is broken, the attempt to use the ability fails, but the attempt counts as if you had used the ability. The casting time of a spell-like ability is 1 standard action, unless the ability description notes otherwise.

Using a Spell-Like Ability on the Defensive: You may attempt to use a spell-like ability on the defensive, just as with casting a spell. If the concentration check (DC 15 + double the spell's level) fails, you can't use the ability, but the attempt counts as if you had used the ability."

Spell like abilities are not spells. You are not "casting a spell" when you use major magic. You are using your Spell Like Ability.


Worth a try.. thought I had a loophole there. 2 levels of rogue is better than one of bard or Sorc skill point wise.


Lobolusk wrote:

Worth a try.. thought I had a loophole there. 2 levels of rogue is better than one of bard or Sorc skill point wise.

You need more than 2 levels in rogue to get Major magic. You need 2 rogue tricks at min -1 being minor magic -2 Major Magic.

Also doesn't Bard have the same skill point progression as a rogue? They are the skillmonkey after all.


you need a feat and a rogue talent you can take "extra talent" and get 2 in a level.

the rogue has 8+ the bard has 6+

Cheliax

Even if you could qualify for it, the dragon disciple spell progression would be nothing. You wouldn't get anything out of the class, so why do it?


It's poor wording, but a SLA is not a "spell" It's a "like ability." So it doesn't qualify in any way as the spellcasting features of any class.

Edit: Just as "cheese food product" isnt Cheese. It is "food product."

Qadira

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Rojosama wrote:
Lobolusk wrote:

Worth a try.. thought I had a loophole there. 2 levels of rogue is better than one of bard or Sorc skill point wise.

You need more than 2 levels in rogue to get Major magic. You need 2 rogue tricks at min -1 being minor magic -2 Major Magic.

Also doesn't Bard have the same skill point progression as a rogue? They are the skillmonkey after all.

Nope bard has 2 less than rogue per level.

Taldor

2 levels of rogue would get you one rogue talent, and Major Magic requires Minor Magic. Unless there's an Extra Rogue Talent feat?


Mergy wrote:
Even if you could qualify for it, the dragon disciple spell progression would be nothing. You wouldn't get anything out of the class, so why do it?

I guess he wanted to get the STR/CON/INT boosts out of it, possibly the blood of dragon abilities as well.

I would not recommend it, pure monk seems much better to me :-/


Mergy wrote:
Even if you could qualify for it, the dragon disciple spell progression would be nothing. You wouldn't get anything out of the class, so why do it?

I would get str boost, con boost and natural armor boost, bonus feats, and fire mouth, and bites I wouldn't get spells which is okay with me, to much math . I am already a lizard man Unarmed fighter...


Vendle wrote:

2 levels of rogue would get you one rogue talent, and Major Magic requires Minor Magic. Unless there's an Extra Rogue Talent feat?

yep there is. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/extra-rogue-talent


Lobolusk wrote:

Worth a try.. thought I had a loophole there. 2 levels of rogue is better than one of bard or Sorc skill point wise.

What is it you are looking for? If you wanted skills and are ok with multiclassing out of monk, why did you go with monk in the first place?

Maybe we can find another way to achieve what you are aiming for?


Lobolusk wrote:
Mergy wrote:
Even if you could qualify for it, the dragon disciple spell progression would be nothing. You wouldn't get anything out of the class, so why do it?

I would get str boost, con boost and natural armor boost, bonus feats, and fire mouth, and bites I wouldn't get spells which is okay with me, to much math . I am already a lizard man Unarmed fighter...

You could get a lot of that with the eldritch heritage: draconic line of feats. It's a relatively small investment compared to multiclassing.

Also, if your lizardman already had a natural armor bonus, it would not stack with DD. Not sure if it matters in your case, though :-)


Sangalor wrote:
Lobolusk wrote:

Worth a try.. thought I had a loophole there. 2 levels of rogue is better than one of bard or Sorc skill point wise.

What is it you are looking for? If you wanted skills and are ok with multiclassing out of monk, why did you go with monk in the first place?

Maybe we can find another way to achieve what you are aiming for?

For the record I frikin love monks! but I am a troglodyte unarmed fighter and i have never done a dragon Disciple so I though it would be cool and fit with my Lizard nature.

HAs a fighter I am a skill baby ie no skills really, and in Serpents skull we keep running into writing, and skill checks, so we have missed out on half the back story. I like Archaeologist but also love punching things in the face. We have one rule about combat "if it has a face punch it if it doesn't have a face don't punch it" so I figured I would pick up a few skill points and dragon breath. I honestly am not going for a caster at all.
so If you know another class that boosts natural armor and str and con and INT I am all ears,


What everyone who else said, but as a DM I would be up for considering it as an alternative prereq. My concerns would be that you are going to be underpowered because you will effectively not gain any of the spell casting benefits as rogue's are not a spell casting class.

Cheliax

A level of sorcerer is better than two levels of rogue, by the by.


Sangalor wrote:
Lobolusk wrote:
Mergy wrote:
Even if you could qualify for it, the dragon disciple spell progression would be nothing. You wouldn't get anything out of the class, so why do it?

I would get str boost, con boost and natural armor boost, bonus feats, and fire mouth, and bites I wouldn't get spells which is okay with me, to much math . I am already a lizard man Unarmed fighter...

You could get a lot of that with the eldritch heritage: draconic line of feats. It's a relatively small investment compared to multiclassing.

Also, if your lizardman already had a natural armor bonus, it would not stack with DD. Not sure if it matters in your case, though :-)

why would it not stack? my base Natural armor raises my skin gets tougher it is not like I ma wearing 2 chain mails my chain mail inert armor bonus is increasing.


Lobolusk wrote:
Sangalor wrote:
Lobolusk wrote:

Worth a try.. thought I had a loophole there. 2 levels of rogue is better than one of bard or Sorc skill point wise.

What is it you are looking for? If you wanted skills and are ok with multiclassing out of monk, why did you go with monk in the first place?

Maybe we can find another way to achieve what you are aiming for?

For the record I frikin love monks! but I am a troglodyte unarmed fighter and i have never done a dragon Disciple so I though it would be cool and fit with my Lizard nature.

HAs a fighter I am a skill baby ie no skills really, and in Serpents skull we keep running into writing, and skill checks, so we have missed out on half the back story. I like Archaeologist but also love punching things in the face. We have one rule about combat "if it has a face punch it if it doesn't have a face don't punch it" so I figured I would pick up a few skill points and dragon breath. I honestly am not going for a caster at all.
so If you know another class that boosts natural armor and str and con and INT I am all ears,

The easiest thing would really be to take one level of sorcerer. It would fit well IMO and you lose much less and have less rule-bending/houseruling involved compared to trying rogue or such.

You could sort of achieve your aims with eldritch heritage, though you won't get all of it.


Mergy wrote:
A level of sorcerer is better than two levels of rogue, by the by.

why because I can cast magic missile? in my armor for a spell failure check? and I get 2 skill points? oh don't forget eschew materials

with a rogue I get sneak attack and 16+int skill points, trap finding and evasion. and a mad reflex save

that is the way I look at it at least


Lobolusk wrote:
Sangalor wrote:
Lobolusk wrote:
Mergy wrote:
Even if you could qualify for it, the dragon disciple spell progression would be nothing. You wouldn't get anything out of the class, so why do it?

I would get str boost, con boost and natural armor boost, bonus feats, and fire mouth, and bites I wouldn't get spells which is okay with me, to much math . I am already a lizard man Unarmed fighter...

You could get a lot of that with the eldritch heritage: draconic line of feats. It's a relatively small investment compared to multiclassing.

Also, if your lizardman already had a natural armor bonus, it would not stack with DD. Not sure if it matters in your case, though :-)

why would it not stack? my base Natural armor raises my skin gets tougher it is not like I ma wearing 2 chain mails my chain mail inert armor bonus is increasing.

Actually it kind of is according to the rules:

Natural Armor Bonus wrote:


A natural armor bonus improves Armor Class resulting from a creature's naturally tough hide. Natural armor bonuses stack with all other bonuses to Armor Class (even with armor bonuses) except other natural armor bonuses. Some magical effects (such as the barkskin spell) grant an enhancement bonus to the creature's existing natural armor bonus, which has the effect of increasing the natural armor's overall bonus to Armor Class. A natural armor bonus doesn't apply against touch attacks.

If the draconic line's bonus was an enhancement bonus to natural armor, it would work. So you can a) take an amulet of natural armor or b) take the improved natural armor feat.

Cheliax

Lobolusk wrote:
Mergy wrote:
A level of sorcerer is better than two levels of rogue, by the by.

why because I can cast magic missile? in my armor for a spell failure check? and I get 2 skill points? oh don't forget eschew materials

with a rogue I get sneak attack and 16+int skill points, trap finding and evasion. and a mad reflex save

that is the way I look at it at least

Stop being hostile about it. If you don't want advice, then don't ask for it.


Sangalor wrote:
Lobolusk wrote:
Sangalor wrote:
Lobolusk wrote:
Mergy wrote:
Even if you could qualify for it, the dragon disciple spell progression would be nothing. You wouldn't get anything out of the class, so why do it?

I would get str boost, con boost and natural armor boost, bonus feats, and fire mouth, and bites I wouldn't get spells which is okay with me, to much math . I am already a lizard man Unarmed fighter...

You could get a lot of that with the eldritch heritage: draconic line of feats. It's a relatively small investment compared to multiclassing.

Also, if your lizardman already had a natural armor bonus, it would not stack with DD. Not sure if it matters in your case, though :-)

why would it not stack? my base Natural armor raises my skin gets tougher it is not like I ma wearing 2 chain mails my chain mail inert armor bonus is increasing.

Actually it kind of is according to the rules:

Natural Armor Bonus wrote:


A natural armor bonus improves Armor Class resulting from a creature's naturally tough hide. Natural armor bonuses stack with all other bonuses to Armor Class (even with armor bonuses) except other natural armor bonuses. Some magical effects (such as the barkskin spell) grant an enhancement bonus to the creature's existing natural armor bonus, which has the effect of increasing the natural armor's overall bonus to Armor Class. A natural armor bonus doesn't apply against touch attacks.
If the draconic line's bonus was an enhancement bonus to natural armor, it would work. So you can a) take an amulet of natural armor or b) take the improved natural armor feat.

well you just torpedoed my battle ship.... what is the difference between the feat Improved Natural armor and the natural armor increase with DD? the feat seems to be the same thing.


Lobolusk wrote:
Mergy wrote:
A level of sorcerer is better than two levels of rogue, by the by.

why because I can cast magic missile? in my armor for a spell failure check? and I get 2 skill points? oh don't forget eschew materials

with a rogue I get sneak attack and 16+int skill points, trap finding and evasion. and a mad reflex save

that is the way I look at it at least

Well, I look at it this way:

- It works according to the rules. Rogue does not.
- If you do not want to cast, you still can simply ignore your spells and *not cast*
- Compared to monk you only lose two skill points
- Sneak attack is easily negated and not really powerful

But maybe it is really better for you to go for 1 level of bard:
- It works according to the rules.
- You get 6 skill points
- If you do not want to cast, you still can simply ignore your spells and *not cast*
- You can choose an archetype that trades some higher level options for better lower level ones.

With casters you could also pick up the magical knack trait to get a +2 to caster level. Now I understand you do not want to cast, but you can do the following stuff next:
- Progress full DD
- Your CL will now be 10
- You pick up arcane blast and can now use all those spells you never used to fire untyped energy rays

And you still have spells available, pick up crafting feats and the like if you suddenly decide you want to after all :-)

Just an idea :-)


Lobolusk wrote:
Sangalor wrote:
Lobolusk wrote:
Sangalor wrote:
Lobolusk wrote:
Mergy wrote:
Even if you could qualify for it, the dragon disciple spell progression would be nothing. You wouldn't get anything out of the class, so why do it?

I would get str boost, con boost and natural armor boost, bonus feats, and fire mouth, and bites I wouldn't get spells which is okay with me, to much math . I am already a lizard man Unarmed fighter...

You could get a lot of that with the eldritch heritage: draconic line of feats. It's a relatively small investment compared to multiclassing.

Also, if your lizardman already had a natural armor bonus, it would not stack with DD. Not sure if it matters in your case, though :-)

why would it not stack? my base Natural armor raises my skin gets tougher it is not like I ma wearing 2 chain mails my chain mail inert armor bonus is increasing.

Actually it kind of is according to the rules:

Natural Armor Bonus wrote:


A natural armor bonus improves Armor Class resulting from a creature's naturally tough hide. Natural armor bonuses stack with all other bonuses to Armor Class (even with armor bonuses) except other natural armor bonuses. Some magical effects (such as the barkskin spell) grant an enhancement bonus to the creature's existing natural armor bonus, which has the effect of increasing the natural armor's overall bonus to Armor Class. A natural armor bonus doesn't apply against touch attacks.
If the draconic line's bonus was an enhancement bonus to natural armor, it would work. So you can a) take an amulet of natural armor or b) take the improved natural armor feat.
well you just torpedoed my battle ship.... what is the difference between the feat Improved Natural armor and the natural armor increase with DD? the feat seems to be the same thing.

DD does not improve your natural armor, it gives you natural armor through the blood of dragons ability. It's like you already have a chainmail (your example) and are given another one. You *can* wear both of them, but they do not stack with respect to natural armor bonus.

Improved natural armor feat, on the other hand, actually increases your natural armor bonus.

That is the difference :-)


graywulfe wrote:
Rojosama wrote:
Lobolusk wrote:

Worth a try.. thought I had a loophole there. 2 levels of rogue is better than one of bard or Sorc skill point wise.

You need more than 2 levels in rogue to get Major magic. You need 2 rogue tricks at min -1 being minor magic -2 Major Magic.

Also doesn't Bard have the same skill point progression as a rogue? They are the skillmonkey after all.

Nope bard has 2 less than rogue per level.

Only until versatile performance. Then the bard pulls ahead and - effectively - gets the most skills of any class in the game :-)


Mergy wrote:
Lobolusk wrote:
Mergy wrote:
A level of sorcerer is better than two levels of rogue, by the by.

why because I can cast magic missile? in my armor for a spell failure check? and I get 2 skill points? oh don't forget eschew materials

with a rogue I get sneak attack and 16+int skill points, trap finding and evasion. and a mad reflex save

that is the way I look at it at least

Stop being hostile about it. If you don't want advice, then don't ask for it.

I think you are reading to much into my cold dead words I am trying to go out of my way on the Internet to not be hostile, by ending the sentence by saying "that is the way I look at it at least" there fore validating you opinion and merely giving mine at the same time. I apologize I am not trying to be Hostile. I go out of my way not to let the internet make me an asshat.


Lobolusk wrote:
concerro wrote:
No. The intent is for 1st level spells from actual class levels, and the rogue major talent gives SLA's which are not spells anyway, and do not count as prerequisites for cases when spells are needed.

PRD:Major Magic (Sp): A rogue with this talent gains the ability to cast a 1st-level spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list two times a day as a spell-like ability."

says I can cast spells( don't know how to bold)

the DD: "Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells without preparation"

even if it is a SLA I still CAST a spell and do so with out Preparation it never says it must be Spontaneous just with out Preparation

Either you are casting a spell or you are casting an SLA. What that phrase means is that the SLA is duplicating a spell.

You can not cast using both SLA and spell mechanics because they are two different things. Since they say it is an SLA that means it is not a spell.


I think the archaeologist bard is a good in combat for a 3/4 BAB character. You can just use the things that replace the party buffers to make yourself do just as much damage as any rogue.

You also get Clever Explorer which makes you better at perception in general than the rogue.


concerro wrote:
Lobolusk wrote:
concerro wrote:
No. The intent is for 1st level spells from actual class levels, and the rogue major talent gives SLA's which are not spells anyway, and do not count as prerequisites for cases when spells are needed.

PRD:Major Magic (Sp): A rogue with this talent gains the ability to cast a 1st-level spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list two times a day as a spell-like ability."

says I can cast spells( don't know how to bold)

the DD: "Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells without preparation"

even if it is a SLA I still CAST a spell and do so with out Preparation it never says it must be Spontaneous just with out Preparation

Either you are casting a spell or you are casting an SLA. What that phrase means is that the SLA is duplicating a spell.

You can not cast using both SLA and spell mechanics because they are two different things. Since they say it is an SLA that means it is not a spell.

yep I conceded that after looking at the SLA's under the rules though the wording is Vague

Cheliax

Lobolusk wrote:
Mergy wrote:

Not a big deal; I snapped as well.

If you're coming from a fighter with this, the spells you can take advantage of include true strike, shield, feather fall, jump, expeditious retreat, etc.

Keep in mind also that you only need one level of it, and that a mithral chain shirt has only a 5% chance of arcane spell failure. Or you can drop the armour altogether and use mage armour, saving you some cash and letting you cast your few spells without worry.

EDIT: Also, true strike and feather fall can be cast without somatic components, meaning you can true strike in full plate if you like.


Sorry, for some reason I got monk in my head. Probably because of your iconic - scrap my notes about the monk and its comparisons :-)


Lobo look at this -->Archaeologist


wraithstrike wrote:

Lobo look at this -->Archaeologist

Wraith old buddy that is exactly what I was thinking! this may turn out okay after all.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Nope, still can't use SLAs to qualify for these things. They are not spells.


@cheapy

yep I have Officially changed my mind to agree on the internet this must be some sort of record.


@Sangalor

this is the wording of the natural armor ability for the dragon disciple it seems by the wording that it is not counted as a separate bonus but Increases the existing natural armor.

As his skin thickens, a dragon disciple takes on more and more of his progenitor's physical aspect. At 1st, 4th, and 7th level, a dragon disciple gains an increase to the character's existing natural armor (if any), as indicated on Table: Dragon Disciple. These armor bonuses stack.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Just a ntoe while at second level you qualify for the "extra rogue talent" feat to get the second talent. You do not get a feat at second level, so the earliest you can get a second talent is third level.

You can not use your first level feat to get "extra rogue talent" because it requires that you already have a talent. Also you can not save a feat to use later (though I wish you could).


Ughbash wrote:

Just a ntoe while at second level you qualify for the "extra rogue talent" feat to get the second talent. You do not get a feat at second level, so the earliest you can get a second talent is third level.

You can not use your first level feat to get "extra rogue talent" because it requires that you already have a talent. Also you can not save a feat to use later (though I wish you could).

yeah I am aware I am multi classed so it would time a feat to line up with a 2nd level of rogue But I get what you saying I feel what you are throwing down!


Lobolusk wrote:

@Sangalor

this is the wording of the natural armor ability for the dragon disciple it seems by the wording that it is not counted as a separate bonus but Increases the existing natural armor.

As his skin thickens, a dragon disciple takes on more and more of his progenitor's physical aspect. At 1st, 4th, and 7th level, a dragon disciple gains an increase to the character's existing natural armor (if any), as indicated on Table: Dragon Disciple. These armor bonuses stack.

That is correct, this bonus you get. I was probably unclear, but I meant that the natural armor bonus you gain from the draconic bloodline would not stack with your other natural armor bonus.

You just check which is / becomes higher, then add the DD increase to it :-)


Please see this post I think you may be mistaken
http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz5ivl?Dragon-Disciple-and-existing-natural-armor #3

I have a amulet of NAT armor+1, and a Improved Natural feat+1 for a total of +8 so if if take DD it bumps up.


Lobolusk wrote:

Please see this post I think you may be mistaken

http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz5ivl?Dragon-Disciple-and-existing-natural-armor #3

I have a amulet of NAT armor+1, and a Improved Natural feat+1 for a total of +8 so if if take DD it bumps up.

Again, I already agreed on this specific increase. Apparently you have not understood what I was saying, so here I make it clearer:

A) In the other thread you mention that you have a base natureal armor bonus of +7 at the moment.
B) Blood of Dragons give you the draconic bloodline powers. This includes a natural armor bonus.
C) Dragon Disciple grants a natural armor bonus *increase*.

What I said was that A and B do not stack. They overlap, and since your natural armor bonus from your race is higher, that one is set -> natural armor bonus of +7.
C grants you increases to your natural armor, so at DD 1 that is an increase of +1, putting your natural armor bonus to +8.

In addition you can take the improved natural armor feat repeatedly to increase that.

Is it clearer now? :-)


YEp,
I was disregarding the Bloodline power I M good.


Lobolusk wrote:

YEp,

I was disregarding the Bloodline power I M good.

OK, just be sure not to disregard the others. Dragon breath and resistances are quite nice ;-)

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