Paizo Top Nav Branding
  • Hello, Guest! |
  • Sign In |
  • My Account |
  • Shopping Cart |
  • Help/FAQ
About Paizo Messageboards News Paizo Blog Help/FAQ
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game
Pathfinder Society

Pathfinder Beginner Box

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game

Pathfinder Comics

Pathfinder Legends

A thought on the Advanced Race Guide


Pathfinder Society® General Discussion

201 to 250 of 253 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | next > last >>
Paizo Employee ***** Global Organized Play Coordinator

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Comparing races and classes are apples to oranges. The reason I think races would explode on the scene where gunslingers, oracles and magi did not, is this.

Gunslingers, oracles and magi are very specific. If you don't like the concept of those classes, there isn't much you can do to change that. Guns are core to the gunslinger. If you don't like guns, you simply aren't going to play a gunslinger. In contrast, a person can take a new race and apply it to any class. There is much more flexibility when creating a new character with a new race as opposed to a new class. Just about any player who has been playing for more than a year has at least one character concept using a race outside of the core.

What is it that makes you think a plethora of new races would not explode on the scene if the book was opened wide and made legal?

As for Beginner Box Bash, I believe some people had the wrong perception of what it was supposed to be. It was never meant to be something run at a person's house, apartment, etc.... We (Paizo) wanted the BBB run in a manner that would draw in new players, that would let customers walking by to see that something was going on, come over and look, and hopefully pique the interest to buy a Beginner Box. It was meant to be for a larger, public play experience, not a private play setting. Look at it as similar to a Magic pre-release in terms of what it was. It is meant to be a public event, not a private one. You don't get to host your own private pre-release tournament. You didnt get to host your own private BBB event. I do appreciate the fact you ran it for your niece and nephew. I did as well at Thanksgiving when I went there for holiday. A day later, we turned around and took my niece and wife to Enchanted Grounds in Denver to play Among the Living. They certainly could have used the BBB boon, especially as it was my 10 year old niece's first PFS experience. She didn't miss getting a boon on a sheet of paper. She did gain a new found love for role playing games, and Pathfinder specifically, and didn't need the BBB boon to enjoy herself and take the first step in a life-long hobby (and hopefully passion).

I'm sorry you feel this decision is a mistake. I feel the opposite. I feel it would be a big mistake to open the race book wide open. It would make more players cringe than it would give them the coolness factor. I have to decide what is best for the long term health of the campaign and turning it into a zoo of characters is not healthy. I do appreciate feedback but this is something I have mentioned on several occassions over the past few months so no one would be surprised by it, buy the book, and then be disappointed.

Qadira ***** RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I'll note that several Iowa City people went to Gen Con this year and won race boons. The next month, at the local game day, I brought my Dhampyr cleric into a party with a Tiefling magus,a Tengu monk, and a half-orc ninja. When the half-orc is considered to be the normal -looking guy in the party, something's off-kilter. It was "monster squad against the Kingdom of the Impossible."

So, yeah, if race boons became easily obtained, they'd be prevalent.

Having said that, it might be fun to have some scenarios specifically designed for the Pathfinder Society's "monster squads". Not a lot of negotiating among Cheliax's upper nobility. More along the line of The Expendables.

Qadira **** Venture-Captain, Ireland—Belfast aka heretic

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Mike

Looking forward to meeting you at Paizocon UK this summer so I can put a voice to the words I am reading! let's hope the Curse of Birmingham doesn't strike again.

For all the reasons stated I am 100% behind the idea of making exotic races the exception rather than the rule in PFS play. The question surely is what is the most equitable way to do this as the one size fits all approach does not seem appropriate here. Equality of opportunity seems to be at the heart of the matter.

I do not like the idea that it is something purely linked to being able to attend the right events/conventions often enough to get the required boons. This is just because availabilty to these events and conventions is so unequal.

To steal from Anatole France: "The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich and the poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread."

Something that allows those of us in an environment that is "poor" in terms of opportunity to get to "sanctioned" events an affordable and realistic way to earn access to races surely is better than telling players that only those able to get to a few big events get to play with the good toys?

For example once you reach a certain number of GM stars you get access. If you g0 to the sanctioned events and get lucky you get access, if you formally retire a character at 12th you get access. Complete a sequence of scenarios to get access. Any number of ways that each PFS player regardless of location can get access to one exotic race at a time.

W

*** RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Mike,

Michael Brock wrote:
What is it that makes you think a plethora of new races would not explode on the scene if the book was opened wide and made legal?

Precident. The game didn't explode with Oracles, Alchemists and Cavaliers once the APG came out, nor has there been an explosion of Ninja with UC. Race fits concept for a character too. I prefer Half-elves over humans because I like the 'outside the norm' If I play a half-orc wizard, it's because the race matches the concept, not for an add on. (aside, I've always loved half-elves since 1e AD&D, Pathfinder made them a viable choice). Like I pointed out with Rey, if I didn't have the Sage bloodline I'd have made him a wizard (or a sorcerer with the arcane bloodline, but I like skilled characters). With Rey's background concept (adopted foundling) a changeling race could have meshed better, but it wasn't essential. If I wanted to play an aasimar rogue, trying to run from his celestial heritage, it's kind of essential to be an aasimar.*

I don't want to claim that players 'need' a boon. Heck, the reason I take my niece and nephew to the Guardtower is because I want them to socialize with new people. both their ages and older. I also know that they'll make mistakes, and a 'do over' would be nice. Assuming they survive pt 3 in a week, they'll get the love of second level. I'll be honest, I underestimated their enthusiasm (or I'm just that good of a storyteller). The BB Boon I had seen as being a good lure into playing PFS. ("See, you've got this sheet for one free death. So why don't you come with me to this event...") That I didn't need it doesn't change the intent I had. (Then again, when the BB Bash was going on I don't think I could have handled a public event). *shrug* Wouldn't be the first time that Paizo's goals were different than mine. :-)

For me, characters are like Dorritos. Kill all you like, I'll make more. For my niece, Amnesia** is always going to be her first. 30 years later I still remember my first character, Richard Ironwood, fondly. (And he was killed in Ghost Tower of Inverness, FYI) Logistically I'd love to get my godkids (at least the two oldest, if not my namesake) up to San Margerita to play, logistically I can't do it. I can't stick 5 (or 6) kids in Orishi, and that would tack another 50+ miles on my trip regardless.***

*

Spoiler:
It would be an interesting exercise to make a 'celestial touched' character w/o the aasimar template (like how Rey has the Feytouched Healing feat to represent his 'farie godmother') The Birthmark trait would be a start...

**

Spoiler:
She named her rogue, not me. Continues tradition though. My sister, her aunt, named her characters after alcohol when she was a kid. Zinfaedel, Bacardi...

***

Spoiler:
Of course when I bought Orishi, I was expecting my life to be me and a chihuahua.


Whatever is done with the new races, all I can say is that if there are a lot of cool new Race Traits in the book, then the popularity of the Adopted Trait is going to explode. You may not have a table full of Tengu, but you may have a table full of humans and elves who were raised by Tengu, and that almost seems weirder to me than a table full of non-core races. The Additional Traits Feat may also see an explosion of use in conjunction with Adopted, as that can be added to a character at later levels for an extra two Traits: Bob the now-7th level Fighter takes both and suddenly remembers that he was raised by a Tiefling as he shows off his cool new Tiefling Race Trait.

Andoran **

Michael Brock wrote:
I feel the opposite. I feel it would be a big mistake to open the race book wide open. It would make more players cringe than it would give them the coolness factor.

How would it make players cringe? Because of seeing too many aasimar paladins or tiefling rogues? How is that not the case now? I feel like you're under-estimating the player base. Yes, some concepts will get a little overused but that's gonna happen. I think that more races will open the doors to new character concepts and builds and will bring a further breadth and depth to the game, than we've seen before. Plus, many people have multiple characters. It'll take some time before we see this proposed 'flood' of non-core races. And after the 'oooo, shiny' factor wears off we'll see a return to the norm of the core races still being dominant.

The limiting of an exotic race to one or two per player will certainly help.

Grand Lodge *****

Matthew Morris wrote:
It would be an interesting exercise to make a 'celestial touched' character w/o the aasimar template (like how Rey has the Feytouched Healing feat to represent his 'farie godmother') The Birthmark trait would be a start...

Children of the Fey are fun to play, indeed ;)

***** Venture-Captain, New Jersey aka Shivok

Madclaw wrote:
The limiting of an exotic race to one or two per player will certainly help.

+1 to this.

I've been harping on this for a while now. In fact this seems to be the middle ground of both sides of the argument. Limiting players to one exotic race is the way to go (exclusive of any convention boons).

There is a control mechanism in place that would both limit the number of exotic races and open the ARG book the way the fanbase is asking for.

Chronicle #04-RB Race Boon

Quote:

Exotic Ancestry: You may choose to play one of the approved exotic races. This race must be legal for play (see the Additional Resources list), beginning at level 1 as normal. Other than access to this additional race, all character creation rules are the same as those outlined in the Guide to Pathfinder Organized Play 4.2. This Chronicle must be the first Chronicle for the given character, and you must bring a copy of the books where the race is detailed in (see the Additional Resources List) to all sessions in which this character appears.

Write the selected race on the line below. Include this Chronicle sheet along with your records for the character.

You are allowed only one exotic race character at any one time (exclusive of convention boons).

Something similiar to what I wrote above would do the trick.

Taldor **

Shivok wrote:
Madclaw wrote:
The limiting of an exotic race to one or two per player will certainly help.

+1 to this.

I've been harping on this for a while now. In fact this seems to be the middle ground of both sides of the argument. Limiting players to one exotic race is the way to go (exclusive of any convention boons).

There is a control mechanism in place that would both limit the number of exotic races and open the ARG book the way the fanbase is asking for.

Chronicle #04-RB Race Boon

Quote:

Exotic Ancestry: You may choose to play one of the approved exotic races. This race must be legal for play (see the Additional Resources list), beginning at level 1 as normal. Other than access to this additional race, all character creation rules are the same as those outlined in the Guide to Pathfinder Organized Play 4.2. This Chronicle must be the first Chronicle for the given character, and you must bring a copy of the books where the race is detailed in (see the Additional Resources List) to all sessions in which this character appears.

Write the selected race on the line below. Include this Chronicle sheet along with your records for the character.

You are allowed only one exotic race character at any one time (exclusive of convention boons).

Something similiar to what I wrote above would do the trick.

+1,000,000 *makes Dr. Evil pose by pointing pinkie finger at corner of mouth*

Paizo Employee ***** Global Organized Play Coordinator

Shivok wrote:


There is a control mechanism in place that would both limit the number of exotic races and open the ARG book the way the fanbase is asking for.

What is this control mechanism you are speaking of? What stops someone from creating 8 different characters with 8 different boons?

*** RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Michael Brock wrote:
Shivok wrote:


There is a control mechanism in place that would both limit the number of exotic races and open the ARG book the way the fanbase is asking for.

What is this control mechanism you are speaking of? What stops someone from creating 8 different characters with 8 different boons?

I beleive he's talking about *this* line

"You are allowed only one exotic race character at any one time (exclusive of convention boons)."

It relies on an honour system, but most things in PFS do anyway.

***** Venture-Captain, New Jersey aka Shivok

Michael Brock wrote:
Shivok wrote:


There is a control mechanism in place that would both limit the number of exotic races and open the ARG book the way the fanbase is asking for.

What is this control mechanism you are speaking of? What stops someone from creating 8 different characters with 8 different boons?

Mike,

The control mechanism would be to ADD the Chronicle as you normally add new Scenarios on the reporting database.

The VAST majority of PFS players are honest enough to accept that as a fair bargain.

YOU WILL get a small percentage that don't lke their race choice and may kamikazi their character on the next opportunity to make another character.

YOU WILL get a small percentage that will create characters and insert the race boon when applicable just to cheat.

YOU WILL NEVER stop a determined cheater. You've been an LEO before, so you know the deal. Can't make saints of everybody. Gamers will game the system no matter what.

So the question is: are YOU willing to except the small percentage of players who will game the system (they already exist), and allow them to ruin the fun that the majority of players are clamoring for?

Paizo Employee ***** Global Organized Play Coordinator

As I said in a reply a few days ago, the IT team simply doesn't have time to add extra projects on top of what is already there, and realistically wouldn't get to something like this for at least six months. Do you have any other solutions?

I know we are not going to stop determined cheaters. That isn't a realistic goal. My question is how do we track it?

Also, a determined cheater can only do so much with what he as to work with. Right now, I know no one can play a Drow or the like period. What you guys are asking for is completely opening the book up for use and I'm not adding 20 new races to PFS.

One final point. The majority of players are not clamoring for additional races to be open. A vocal minority of 15-20 are. I talk to gamers everywhere I go, and get feedback from VCs and VLs and the majority of players, from the feedback I have received don't want this.

***** Venture-Captain, New Jersey aka Shivok

Michael Brock wrote:
As I said in a reply a few days ago, the IT team simply doesn't have time to add extra projects on top of what is already there, and realistically wouldn't get to something like this for at least six months. Do you have any other solutions?

Since Season four is 4 months away that may still be a viable option or it can be implemented in season 5.

Other than that I guess I have no other solutions.

Paizo Employee ***** Global Organized Play Coordinator

Shivok wrote:
Michael Brock wrote:
As I said in a reply a few days ago, the IT team simply doesn't have time to add extra projects on top of what is already there, and realistically wouldn't get to something like this for at least six months. Do you have any other solutions?

Since Season four is 4 months away that may still be a viable option or it can be implemented in season 5.

Other than that I guess I have no other solutions.

The book comes out in two months, not four. If the book was delayed by becoming PFS legal for to full months, there would be some very unhappy customers.

And when I say they don't have time and it would take six months, that isn't an exaggeration. We are working on a totl overhaul of the PFS landing page, as well as at least two projects that are bigger than that and require building everything from scratch.

Taldor **

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Michael Brock wrote:


Also, a determined cheater can only do so much with what he as to work with. Right now, I know no one can play a Drow or the like period. What you guys are asking for is completely opening the book up for use and I'm not adding 20 new races to PFS.

One final point. The majority of players are not clamoring for additional races to be open. A vocal minority of 15-20 are. I talk to gamers everywhere I go, and get feedback from VCs and VLs and the majority of players, from the feedback I have received don't want this.

I want to clarify my particular stance on this subject as I've posted in here a couple of times and the above statement by Mike does not represent my stance, even though I believe I am in that referred to vocal minority.

I do not want, nor think it is appropriate, to unleash every race published in the ARG to be legal in PFS. I just think that a handful of the non-core races would make perfectly acceptable pathfinders. Based on the race boons, someone in the higher ups thought that they did as well, regardless of the rarity, they thought it was appropriate to allow them to be part of their organized campaign. I am in no way advocating that 15-20 more races be adding to the list of race choices, that is simply absurd. To go from 6 available races to 26 overnight is in no way what I have been attempting to advocate.

What I am advocating is that the campaign organizers take a look at the races being published in the ARG. Select a handful of new non-core races that best fit the setting and make them legal for play. This would probably need to include (and possibly only include) all of the ones currently available as boons. Not every race fits the setting and I understand that, but a precedent has already been set by these racial boons and I think that shouldn't be ignored.

For example, I had no real issue with the limitation of not allowing any of the gun-wielding archetypes for classes other than the Gunslinger class. It was clear that the campaign staff wanted to minimize gun use by making players invest a level in Gunslinger for the benefit of that ability. However, had there been boons available that allowed a fellow player to wield a gun with his Paladin prior to the publication of the UC (persumably with playtest rules for guns), but upon release of that book, I find out I can't utilize the Holy Gun archetype. I would have been frustrated to say the least.

So in short, I'm not advocating that we blow the doors off the barn holding all the crazy race options in ARG, just that the campaign should utilize the book to carefully expand on the current available race options.

As it appears attempting to force a limit on players is currently unavailable due to technology, just be cautious what is made legal, but for the love of Pete, make some of it legal! (and more than just the racial traits and feats for the core races)

Andoran **

Well, I don't know how hard it is to add a scenario for reporting to the code, but that is one way that it could be done. Track it that way. When the other GM records the boon have then report it like they would any other scenario. The system will then mark if they already have a non-core race character.

And I don't know if anyone has said completely opening up the entire ARG. I for one think that just opening up the 7 current exotic races available by boon would be more than satisfactory to people.

Paizo Employee ***** Global Organized Play Coordinator

Madclaw wrote:

Well, I don't know how hard it is to add a scenario for reporting to the code, but that is one way that it could be done. Track it that way. When the other GM records the boon have then report it like they would any other scenario. The system will then mark if they already have a non-core race character.

And I don't know if anyone has said completely opening up the entire ARG. I for one think that just opening up the 7 current exotic races available by boon would be more than satisfactory to people.

Let me reiterate again:

Michael Brock wrote:
As I said in a reply a few days ago, the IT team simply doesn't have time to add extra projects on top of what is already there, and realistically wouldn't get to something like this for at least six months. Do you have any other solutions?

That means no new coding for the near future. We don't have time. And I'm not sold on elemental races either.

Silver Crusade *

Mike why don't you limt the exotiv races to what is in Golarian cannon that have been presented in currrently published Golarian line.

That would limit new races to Thiefling [Chilixian] Tengu [Tien] Asamir[Tien] Kitsune[Tien] Nagaji[Tien]Wayang Tien Samersen {Tien]

Thats seven races No races from no golarian pazio products then you and Mark can work with the Golarian product line group to limt new races
introduced into Golarin that would let players have a bit of the exotic
by limiting the races and the numer of exotics by limiting to on actice wxotic at a time. That way eveyone cold have FUN and at the same time keep the game huamn centric.

You could also limt the exotics more by penalizing them by giving them negitive social penalties as huamn are known bigots. Over coming this would chalange players that want to paly exotics.

Just some thoughts BTW you and Mark are doing a great Job providing the FS comunity with great feedback.

***** Venture-Captain, New Jersey aka Shivok

How about you guys add a statement ending the discussion and just lock these threads since we're getting nowhere.

Taldor **

Mike, you have been very clear on the fact that new coding to limit the number of non-core races that each player can have is not happening. I'm actually bewildered as to why people continue to suggest it.

I don't understand why this has to be policed so mechanically. Simply make a rule that each player may on have one non-core race in addition to whatever racial boons that they have acquired. This way the boons still have value as they allow you to create characters beyond your 1 non-core race limit. Sure, I suppose that people may lie and attempt to cheat the rule, but that is the nature of having such an extensive gaming community. I honestly believe that the vast majority will respect the rules, just like the majority of them respect all of the other rules found in the society guide.

That is what I'd like to see, give the community some new fun options and also give us some credit that we're not a bunch of cheating scoundrels that will purposely violate a rule the campaign coordinators put in place.

Silver Crusade *

+1 Grumph Bronzebeard

**** Venture-Lieutenant, Louisiana—New Orleans aka waltero

Now that I've read all the posts and given more thought...

Why don't the Powers-that-be just select the races to be allowed for now, don't worry about limiting them or tracking them and let the player base use their judgement? More could be allowed later if indicated.

Don't worry about sitting down at a table of all Tengu or kobolds or whatever. For all your character knows, those in your party are the only ones there are in the Society.

Qadira **** Venture-Captain, Ireland—Belfast aka heretic

Michael Brock wrote:


.....I know we are not going to stop determined cheaters. That isn't a realistic goal. My question is how do we track it?.....

The races are already out there via boons. If eligibilty is earned via the other methods suggested (e.g. GM Stars, certain scenario chains etc. etc.) all of which can be evidenced at the table then the only issue is people trying to cheat with multiple exotic race PCs. Are a large proportion of the people who have earned this right also going to cheat...in numbers large enough to make tracking a prerequisite to widening the availablity of the current exotics?

W

Grand Lodge **** Venture-Captain, West Virginia aka Marack

2 people marked this as a favorite.

I think that some races should be added as general access, but not all of them. I remember a plot point from a recent scenario that monstrous races are illegal in Absalom, so it is not unreasonable to limit it to those that could walk the street without being jailed. In my experience the game will self correct to keep things human centered as long as humans get an extra feat at first level and the others do not. Personally, I love that Golarion is human centered. The different human races and nationalities give a lot of flavor that the other races do not seem to have. That said, the occasional odd race can also add a lot of flavor.

My suggestion is to treat boons for races from the ARG or Dragon Empires like the boons for the novels. You can download and print one, it had to be signed off by a GM who sees that you own the relevant book and you can only use it once. This gives everyone the chance to play something new. We will probably have a brief monster squad period. Those who fall in love with their new characters will play them but I believe most will go back to their existing characters after buying the new book and dabbling a bit.

We ran the BBB for the local game store and there were three race boons given out. One has never been used. One made a character and never played it. The third played his character twice and went back to his elf.

Lantern Lodge ***

+1 Marack. Good stuff.

Marack wrote:
My suggestion is to treat boons for races from the ARG or Dragon Empires like the boons for the novels. You can download and print one, it had to be signed off by a GM who sees that you own the relevant book and you can only use it once. This gives everyone the chance to play something new. We will probably have a brief monster squad period. Those who fall in love with their new characters will play them but I believe most will go back to their existing characters after buying the new book and dabbling a bit.

And to add an extra layer of security for these kind of things, have it to where the player using the boon needs a Venture Officer signing off on it, if one is available in their region. When and if they bring it to a convention, a VO would probably be available to sign off on it there. Otherwise, if they're not bringing to such an event, a local GM can sign off on it until a VO becomes available.

Lantern Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Australia—Melbourne aka DarkWhite

Mike Brock wrote:
The majority of players are not clamoring for additional races to be open. A vocal minority of 15-20 are. I talk to gamers everywhere I go, and get feedback from VCs and VLs and the majority of players, from the feedback I have received don't want this.

Disclaimer: I'm one of the vocal minority of 15-20, and also provide feedback as a VC ;-)

I hear both sides of the argument - local players begging for access to their favourite non-core race, and others expressing caution - but I note that no-one has turned down a racial boon I've handed out yet, even those expressing caution.

Some races are more campaign appropriate than others. Maybe open access to one race at a time, and monitor to see how things go. You could even introduce access to each race with a PFS blog article. Some races will never become open (eg Drow).

Venture-Captains assign PFS agents to mission teams. If they think an agent is inapproptiate for a mission, they won't assign them. If they think an agent has special qualities suited to a mission, they may call them in.

Maybe have Tien character races only assigned to Tien-specific missions - either those set in TianXia, or missions handed out by Amara Li. Makes sense to use local field agents when available, instead of shipping agents between Absalom and Goka for each mission. While Absalom can learn much from foreign missions, local agents have a better handle on local language, customs etc.

This approach also applies to other non-core races. Standard races can still join these missions, but they may be adventuring alongside a Dhampyr if sent into Geb, for example.

If a non-core race is allowed to join a specific mission, then these should be listed on the scenario's product page, including past scenarios, and new scenarios should list these prominently on the inside front cover, sidebar or GM intro.

This will allow players to enjoy their non-core races from the ARG occasionally, without swamping every scenario with races from distant lands or otherwise not really suited to the mission.

Race boons awarded at conventions mark a character as a trusted PFS agent, perhaps one with connections, or an ambassador among their people, and would permit that character to be played in any scenario, as they are currently.

Grand Lodge **** Venture-Captain, West Virginia aka Marack

Josh Spies wrote:

+1 Marack. Good stuff.

And to add an extra layer of security for these kind of things, have it to where the player using the boon needs a Venture Officer signing off on it, if one is available in their region. When and if they bring it to a convention, a VO would probably be available to sign off on it there. Otherwise, if they're not bringing to such an event, a local GM can sign off on it until a VO becomes available.

I don't think that extra layer of security is necessary. I'm usually the local GM and I have organized play at a small con. Local GM's know their own players and they will know if someone has cheated the process. That is all that's needed. Putting that responsibility on a VC seems like a good idea, but it is only as secure as the memory of the VC in question. How are they supposed to remember that they are signing off on a chronicle sheet for someone they spent 5 minutes with that had the exact same chronicle signed by them a year before. You are adding additional complexity for little benefit.

My area does not have a VC and likely never will because of population density. The reason I'm in PFS right now is because of a good experience at last year's Origins where the VC's and 5 star GM's were taking the tables of newbies themselves once everyone else was seated. Their time is better spent helping run the events rather than signing off on chronicle sheets.

The whole point of my suggestion was to provide more equal opportunity while using existing resources. I think that is the real issue here. People want the opportunity, even if they will rarely use it. We can have the more common exotic races available to everyone through the downloadable chronicle sheet. This leaves the more exotic ones to be handled through convention boons.

If this still leaves a gap in cool boons to give out, you can also mix in boons that are either background or cosmetic oriented. As an example would be a boon that lets you play as one of the red humans from Akiton or one of the Lashunta from Castrovel. These are normal humans and elves, only with cosmetic and cultural differences. Unusual mounts, animal companions or pets could be added the same way if there still needs to be convention boons that motivate people. I personally know people who would trade a stack of race boons for one that would let them take Besmara for their deity.

Andoran **

Marack wrote:
My suggestion is to treat boons for races from the ARG or Dragon Empires like the boons for the novels. You can download and print one, it had to be signed off by a GM who sees that you own the relevant book and you can only use it once. This gives everyone the chance to play something new. We will probably have a brief monster squad period. Those who fall in love with their new characters will play them but I believe most will go back to their existing characters after buying the new book and dabbling a bit.

I fully agree with this idea in that I brought it up myself before. But Michael mentioned that the IT team is currently really busy with redesigning the PFS page and from the sound of it from the ground up. So although I love the idea, it's currently not an option.

Grand Lodge **** Venture-Captain, West Virginia aka Marack

Madclaw wrote:


I fully agree with this idea in that I brought it up myself before. But Michael mentioned that the IT team is currently really busy with redesigning the PFS page and from the sound of it from the ground up. So although I love the idea, it's currently not an option.

I gathered that, which is why I suggested it. Take a look at this:

http://paizo.com/products/btpy8g3n?Pathfinder-Tales-Prince-of-Wolves

The chronicle sheet is a download link in the description of the product. There is a similar link on the additional resources page. There are links to errata on other product pages and the downloads page. If they can link to .pdfs on these pages, there should not be any reason that the same could not be arranged for the ARG catalog page. All I am assuming is the ability to add links to pages that already have to be updated as new product comes out.

This requires no resources that do not already exist. The system does not have to track anything and the existing rule that says that players can only use a boon once prevents abuse. As far as I can tell this is the only solution that allows restricted access to new races without opening the floodgates and also having little development time other than creating the chronicle sheet and quality control.

I admit that there may be technical and bureaucratic issues behind the scenes that keep something that simple from being done in a reasonable time. My day dob is in corporate land and sometimes getting even little things from IT requires multiple requests and months of "hurry up and wait." If this is the case, then I can understand his frustration as well as his inability to talk to us about it other than say "It's not an option."


A few thoughts:

-Having it so I can only play a race if I go to a convention is highly discriminating to me. I have autism and PTSD which makes it hard to go to any large group event.

-In my option let PFS be flooded with exotic races, at least there should be a good spread and there are always NPCs to make it seem even. Most of the core races have traits and feats just for them, while the exotic races don't; so I view this as a nerf to exotic raves already. The only major problem I see is 20 million NG drow ranger running around.

-Also under the logic that exotic races get a nerfed 15 point build if everyone plays one, why don't I get a 25 point build for playing a dwarf? Since they are rarely played in my experience, though I've only been to about 10 dnd/pf games before, but everyone else was human or elf.

Andoran **** Venture-Captain, Missouri—Cape Girardeau aka Arnim Thayer

First off, *Holy Wall of Text!* Sorry for the long post!

I want to weigh in also as a VL and a player.

I can see where players would be frustrated with not being able to play certain races from the ARG after buying the book. While we have yet to see the full content of the book, I firmly expect that the book will still have enough goodies for the races that are allowed to make it a good purchase.

On the other hand, there are certain races I can see being opened up from the book without the need for a Race Boon Chronicle. The adventures and scenarios so far have featured both Tieflings and Aasimars; the next two Pathfinder Companion books will allow for even more options for those two races. I think both of these would make for good inclusion into regular PFS play with the caveat of ownership of the book... much like the new Base Classes required ownership of the APG, UM, or UC.

I still think it is possible to add other races (such as the Tia-themed ones from Dragon Empire Primer!) by adding them in as a boon on scenario Chronicles that deal with those races. I gave the example of Red Harvest earlier in this thread. This STILL allows Mike to exercise control over which races get released into play and require (again) ownership of the source book for that race. If Mike doesn't like feel of the elemental races, then he never has to allow development of that particular boon on a Chronicle for a scenario, even if they are featured in a scenario.

Does this create some scenarios that might be "must play?" Yes. If there are requirements to earn the "unlock" of that race (i.e. avoid combat by using Diplomacy successfully in two of the four encounters), then access is still limited. There will be parties that fail because they have no Diplomacy or are combat designed builds. Even after a successful "unlock", they still would have to own the source book... a further requirement. Add to that that (1) GMs are supposed to never receive boons on a Chronicle, and (2) Players can only ever have one Chronicle from play, and the system itself takes care of most of the policing this would need. We rely heavily on trust of our players AND GMs... this would be no different.

So, let's use the example above.
A player shows up with a nagai character for PFS play. I ask to see his Boon Chronicle allowing him to use it. He says "I don't have one. I earned this from playing Red Harvest." I ask to see his Red Harvest Chronicle (which is attached to a different character). If he has it, next step is to ask for his proof of ownership of a source (i.e. Dragon Empires Primer, book or pdf with watermark). He produces THAT. Only then is he allowed to play that character. If he fails at any of these steps (lack of Race Chronicle, unable to show proof of "unlock" Chronicle - such as "left that character at home, proof of source ownership), the player cannot play that character at that table... hope he brought another one.

I think this would be a reasonable way to allow content, have control over what content gets released, and circumvent some of the ill feelings about Race Boons seeming to be a convention only resource. Also, it allows Paizo to retire certain Race Boon Chronicles in order to develop others.

I understand Mike's major stance... that Golorian is human-centric and PFS needs to not be a menagerie of strange creatures. I also have to say that I have five players in my area that earned Race Boons, either through convention play or GMing the Beginner's Box Bash at our local game day. Only one had an active character they play using their Race Boon; the rest of us continue to use our usual characters, wanting to see them through to retirement. I think this is less of an issue then it would seem. Is it a {b]possible[/b] issue? Yes. But let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater... test it in a limited form (such as an "unlock" Chronicle, with a Race that seems "palatable" for PFS play), and see if it makes a flood. It never has to be used again if it seems to be being abused.

Shadow Lodge *** Venture-Lieutenant, California—Silicon Valley aka JohnF

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Michael VonHasseln wrote:
I understand Mike's major stance... that Golorian is human-centric and PFS needs to not be a menagerie of strange creatures.

Humans? What are they?

A party can be made up of a dwarf, an elf, a half-orc, somebody who wraps himself up in a translucent body suit so you can't even see what he is, a gnome and a halfling, and that's OK. But anything else would turn it into a menagerie? And we won't even talk about the animal companions, the tattoos, the deformed alchemists, and all the other weirdos.

Andoran **** Venture-Captain, Missouri—Cape Girardeau aka Arnim Thayer

JohnF wrote:
Michael VonHasseln wrote:
I understand Mike's major stance... that Golorian is human-centric and PFS needs to not be a menagerie of strange creatures.

Humans? What are they?

A party can be made up of a dwarf, an elf, a half-orc, somebody who wraps himself up in a translucent body suit so you can't even see what he is, a gnome and a halfling, and that's OK. But anything else would turn it into a menagerie? And we won't even talk about the animal companions, the tattoos, the deformed alchemists, and all the other weirdos.

To clarify...

Humans make up the majority of the population of Golorian... that is undeniable, regardless of the classes. In all the time I have been running PFS, I can easily say that I have seen WAAAYYY more human characters than ANY other race, both as players, and combatants.


i like seeing menageries of strange creatures.

Andoran *****

Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber

As a Counter to those that say that their players who have racial boons don't use them a lot, I see the exact opposite in my area.

My Players have had plenty have chances to get racial boons, and those that have them (around 8 players) have made PCs with them and use those PCs when they can. A few times we have had groups where more then half were non core races.

I personally have made the following or will make, and play them when I can:

Tengu - Gunslinger
Tiefling - Witch
Ifrit - Sorcerer
Aasimar - Paladin

***** Venture-Captain, New Jersey aka Shivok

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Dragnmoon wrote:

My Players have had plenty have chances to get racial boons

I personally have made the following or will make, and play them when I can:

Tengu - Gunslinger
Tiefling - Witch
Ifrit - Sorcerer
Aasimar - Paladin

Thats great for you, but like you said your players have had that opportunity - every player has not. By dint of Major Convention locations some conventions have gotten the race boons, others have not. Many PFS players cant make it to those cons, so are we to exclude them because they cant make it to a con ? They still contribute to Paizo by supporting the company with product purchases?

It's a non-issue if players will use these boons, its that all players have an opportunity to play a race via a boon. If they decide to use it or not is not part of the argument.

Andoran *****

Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber
Shivok wrote:
It's a non-issue if players will use these boons, its that all players have an opportunity to play a race via a boon. If they decide to use it or not is not part of the argument.

People have made it an issue, so I was replying to that issue...

Posters where saying, Hey my players are not using these boons anyway so why don't open them to all? I was countering that with my experience..

**

Three suggestions for limiting the number of advanced races in PFS.

1) Each player has a registered number, and each character is -1, -2, -3. What if an advance race is -A, or -R?* Tada I can only have one advanced race character. A GM reporting the chronicle checks the Tengu rogue at his table against the 0001-R and sees it is registered as an elephant paladin. Oops no go.
*Would adding a letter to a number field require coding? I kennae. If so I guess this will not work, but a suggestion is a suggestion. :)

2) A player has to spend prestige/fame** from current characters to get an advanced race. Tis spent/checked in the same way other prestige/fame is spent/checked and GM issues the appropriate boon/chronicle. It also ensures a number of non-advanced race characters first :)
**I kennae a lot about prestige/fame spending as I dinnae have a character high enough to spend any. This idea may be way off base. If so I apologize, (but again a suggestion is a suggestion :)

Spoiler:
the apology includes my lack of experience. The nearest Con is 2 hours drive and only had one table. Almost all my PFS experience is from Paizocon (a 6 hour drive, but fortunately near family :)This means I participate as a GM & pre-gens). I have played my only PFS character only once :)

3) I forgot what three was as I got so wordy above :)

**

I guess I am one of the vocal minority. One of my regular players is as well (that is 2 out of 6) I dinnae believe folks wanting to play advanced races is TOO small a minority. (Paizo is publishing an entire book which means they consider economically feasible after all :). (Unless the numbers of PFS vs PF in general are smaller than I think :)

I'd also like to add, that boons to con go-ers sounds good too me. I am nae trying to take that away from them. And I understand only some ARG races will be PFS balanced :)

***** Venture-Captain, New Jersey aka Shivok

Dragnmoon wrote:
Shivok wrote:
It's a non-issue if players will use these boons, its that all players have an opportunity to play a race via a boon. If they decide to use it or not is not part of the argument.

People have made it an issue, so I was replying to that issue...

Posters where saying, Hey my players are not using these boons anyway so why don't open them to all? I was countering that with my experience..

D,

Hopefully you didnt take that last statement personal man. It wasnt intended that way.

(Shivok-Representing the vocal minority aka the 1%!

;)

****

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Modules Subscriber

(Sorry this post ended up getting so long)

Michael Brock wrote:
Comparing races and classes are apples to oranges. The reason I think races would explode on the scene where gunslingers, oracles and magi did not,

Again I am still a fairly new player but from what I have seen at PFS tables both Magi & Oracles are far more common then the core rules classes. I have seem more of them then Clerics & Rogues, Wizards & Paladins combined. To the point of Exotic being common another trend I have seen barbarians seem to have invaded & are more numerous then fighters, but maybe that is a discussion for a different topic. Do I think there would be an influx of Alternative races if they were more available? Yes. Would it be any more unusual then some of the groupings we are already seeing? No.

Michael Brock wrote:
Just about any player who has been playing for more than a year has at least one character concept using a race outside of the core.

I think this gets to the point that has attracted people to this forum myself included. I can understand that some people don't want the "zoo". I respect that opinion, but with all due respect I do want to play a more exotic race.

I currently have no plan to attend any sort of convention so it could be said that since I am not supporting the community & should not be getting any reward. Again with all due respect I disagree. I started playing PFS in January & have spent a good amount of money on books, miniatures, maps, dice. I have gone out to demo the beginners box at a toy & hobby show to attract new players. I think I have done my due diligence to support the community. So how else could people like myself gain access to Alternative Races? I read Mark's response & I was somewhat discouraged at first. Maybe I was reading between the lines but I would like to hope that people like myself the non-con people should still have some options.

Mark Moreland wrote:
Anyone with an existing race boon, or who gets one in the future (regardless of method of distribution) will have the option to use alternate race traits from the following races

So how else could players get a race boon? A few great ideas have been introduced but have logistical concerns that make them hard to implement. For the record to buy a PDF or have VC's hand out a boon sheet as a GM reward with stars are both ideas I would support.

The only idea I could come up with I came up with that I have not seen people talking about as an idea is to supply special boon sheets to retailers. This could be something that could be controlled by Paizo, you would know how many are sent out & where they go. Not really any different from handing them out at Con's IMO, they go to the people supporting the products. A bit of optional purchase incentives for local small businesses as support from Piazo to the business that sell your products (nudge, nudge). Incentive for players to pre-order products maybe.

Just a thought

Cheliax ***

I just thought I'd pipe up as being someone who does not have any racial boons but is in the camp of not wanting the races from the ARG to be laid open to anyone and everyone.

Like it or not, PFS is played in the world of Golarion, and it is a fact that Golarion is a world where humans outnumber the other races. It's also a fact that the races in the core rules are the most populous races that can be player characters, excluding the possibly more numerous but not really PC material races such as goblins and kobolds.

The 'argh my immersion!' that popped up on the boards was bad enough with the advent of the gunslinger class, let alone the influx of tengu, dhampirs, elemental races and so on that a blanket allowance of the ARG would lead to.

I also agree with Mike's comment that you can't look at how the new classes were received and expect new races to be received the same way. Races are more versatile than classes. There will be a greater uptake of new cool races as opposed to new cool classes for this reason. And some of the races are badass, too. I mean, proficiency with any and every sword? What class isn't going to enjoy that? Go tengu!

Right now there is a system in place to allow access to the new races via boons. The system has flaws, and for some people it doesn't suit. However, I firmly believe that a flawed system is better than just opening up the ARG. Perhaps in time, a better system could be put in place.

I suspect from my personal experiences that there may be a silent majority of PFS players who don't want the races opened up to everyone, as well. I certainly don't, even though I'm very unlikely to ever obtain a race boon. This doesn't bother me. It means I can enjoy the surprise when I come across that rare special race character in my games, and means I don't have to face down a full table of tieflings.

**

Curaigh wrote:

Three suggestions for limiting the number of advanced races in PFS.

3) I forgot what three was as I got so wordy above :)

I remembered what number three was...

Only one (two?) advanced race per table. This switches the concern from WHO plays advanced races to WHEN. If you bring an exotic race to a table you should also bring a backup. If two+ players bring an advanced race the character with the lowest level character(s?) gets in. I think this is similar to how the 'playing down' rule works.*

This may work differently at a con where enough tables exist to accommodate all levels, but then again, there might be enough tables to let every advanced race player in. Just another suggestion based on pre-existing rules. :)

*I dinnae remember how the playing down rule works exactly, again playing 99.5% pregens. I think it is not even called playing down is it?

Spoiler:
Advanced races will advance slower and therefor become rarer at higher levels. There may be glut at low-levels, but in a human-centric society where is a lonely tengu going to turn except to the Society (well maybe dish-washing at a Tengu restaurant, but tis only until I can raise enough gold to buy my own magic beans-I swear!).

*** RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Charging the hill again...

Part of my argument has been* (and remains) trickle down effect. So for example the current 'boon' races (I believe Tiefling, Aasimar, Tengu, elemental kin, did I miss any?) should be available to the masses. I'm not going to repeat the reasons again.

I have thought about the simple answer to the 'boon races as incentives' was 'get new races'. It seems to me that the ARG and now Blood of Fiends offers the solution in making the races that aren't currently boons, and the tiefling varients in Blood of fiends (and Aasimar varients in the next book) as future boons for, say, 2013-2014. At the same time, open the current 'boon' races up for general play.

This would allow players (like me, if I ever need a fourth low level character) the option of making one of the 'new' races, and still allow at least two years of exclusive races to fill the ranks of boons.

***** Venture-Captain, New Jersey aka Shivok

I'm definitely against mandatory slow advancement for any character or limiting what races can play at what tables.

If thats the case then just keep the boons as they are.

@Matt,

I think we fought long and hard and 'hopefully' we made some valid points throughout this discussion so that the PFS big cheeses will make some positive changes in the direction we'd like. If anything many folks brought up some good ideas on the multiple threads with this issue.

Qadira ***** RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Matthew Morris wrote:

,,,the current 'boon' races (I believe Tiefling, Aasimar, Tengu, elemental kin, did I miss any?)

Dhampyr.

Cheliax ***

Matthew Morris wrote:

Charging the hill again...

Part of my argument has been* (and remains) trickle down effect. So for example the current 'boon' races (I believe Tiefling, Aasimar, Tengu, elemental kin, did I miss any?) should be available to the masses. I'm not going to repeat the reasons again.

I have thought about the simple answer to the 'boon races as incentives' was 'get new races'. It seems to me that the ARG and now Blood of Fiends offers the solution in making the races that aren't currently boons, and the tiefling varients in Blood of fiends (and Aasimar varients in the next book) as future boons for, say, 2013-2014. At the same time, open the current 'boon' races up for general play.

This would allow players (like me, if I ever need a fourth low level character) the option of making one of the 'new' races, and still allow at least two years of exclusive races to fill the ranks of boons.

The point is that the restricted races are slightly more powerful than the standard ones so from a purely optimisation point of view if they become accessable to everyone it can seriously unbalance encounters that were designed without expecting the PCs to have access to such abilities (such as Daylight, Darkness etc).

I speak from the point of view of someone who will likely not earn a race boon, although if I ever got one I would probably build a character for it almost instantly.

In the end we have to accept that certain things arent supposed to be for everyone and that it would be certainly disappointing if restricted races dominated every table.

In the end with all the customisation options available to us you can make almost anything you want for PFS.

Grand Lodge ****

At my game yesterday we had a Tengu Arcane Duelist, A Tiefling Paladin on an Axebeak, an Elven Ranger (who excelled at hunting humans) on an Axebeak and a Human druid with a Tiger pet.

Was it 'disappointing'?
Hell no, it was awesome.

We felt like we'd finally broken through the Impenetrable Wall of Tolkien that has been reigning in fantasy games (bar Ebberron) for the last thirty years. I felt like many of the scenes could be painted by Moebius, or any Bureau of Paranormal Research Division comic artist. Like our heroes were special individuals not because they could wave around a sword, but because their very origins were enigmatic, fantastical and deeply enveloped in the supernatural mystique of the Society.

But is it Golarion? Well, (sadly), no. This is changing a bit with the stranger races of Tian Xia, but to a great extent the setting's flavour follows a strict 95 per cent human population, with all 'fantastic' human cultures directly implanted from Earth's history (bar the well-loved Cheliax).

So, for me, the decision to restrict race boons does not stem from game mechanics worries, but from the human focus on Golarion. The world setting believability doesn't support PFS parties consisting primarily of strange and exotic creatures. Even the books don't! I still don't know the weight tables of a Tengu. Can someone point me in the right direction?

201 to 250 of 253 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | next > last >>
Paizo / Messageboards / Paizo Publishing / Pathfinder® / Pathfinder Society® / General Discussion / A thought on the Advanced Race Guide All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.

©2002–2014 Paizo Inc.®. Need help? Email customer.service@paizo.com or call 425-250-0800 during our business hours: Monday–Friday, 10 AM–5 PM Pacific Time. View our privacy policy. Paizo Inc., Paizo, the Paizo golem logo, Pathfinder, the Pathfinder logo, Pathfinder Society, GameMastery, and Planet Stories are registered trademarks of Paizo Inc., and Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Pathfinder Adventure Path, Pathfinder Adventure Card Game, Pathfinder Player Companion, Pathfinder Modules, Pathfinder Tales, Pathfinder Battles, Pathfinder Online, PaizoCon, RPG Superstar, The Golem's Got It, Titanic Games, the Titanic logo, and the Planet Stories planet logo are trademarks of Paizo Inc. Dungeons & Dragons, Dragon, Dungeon, and Polyhedron are registered trademarks of Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc., and have been used by Paizo Inc. under license. Most product names are trademarks owned or used under license by the companies that publish those products; use of such names without mention of trademark status should not be construed as a challenge to such status.