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A thought on the Advanced Race Guide


Pathfinder Society® General Discussion

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**** RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

godsDMit wrote:
Mark Moreland wrote:
We're still listening and following the thread, even if we're not posting.
Is that a threat?

You forgot the smiley (I hope)


Now, getting one free boon for PFS by buying the book from Paizo.com isn't a bad idea.

**** RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

GM Kyle wrote:
Now, getting one free boon for PFS by buying the book from Paizo.com isn't a bad idea.

Except it might upset retailers. (just pointing out why TPTBP might not think that a good idea)

I make a point to buy *something* when I go to an event at a store, just because I'm there. That and I've been going to the Guardtower for (gods) close to 20 years now, and they know I'm a Paizo subscriber.


The Guardtower in Columbus?

Sovereign Court **

godsDMit wrote:
Chris Mortika wrote:
Here's a suggestion: Paizo could simply sell the boon certificates, the same way they sell reroll shirts.

I'd be fine with that. ;)

Id probably also be fine with buying a copy of the ARG means you can create 1 character using a race from that book, though that may be hard to enforce.

I missed Chris making this comment the first time around. Excellent idea! If the convention boons are meant to help the campaign prosper financially and grow as a whole, selling them separately to those of us not interested in conventions would seem like a good idea.

I don't have anything against conventions, just prefer to stick to my local gaming group, and I prefer not to travel. But if the boons were purchasable, that is certainly more money that you'd get out of me that you otherwise wouldn't (I won't be attending cons either way).

**** RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

GM Kyle wrote:
The Guardtower in Columbus?

Yup, I'm old. Running First Steps II this Saturday. I'll likely see if they have the maps for FS III there.


Matthew Morris wrote:
GM Kyle wrote:
The Guardtower in Columbus?
Yup, I'm old. Running First Steps II this Saturday. I'll likely see if they have the maps for FS III there.

Okay, you're on the Columbus PFS Facebook page I created. :) If I recall, are you a friend of Karen that I GMed for briefly before my deployment?

Liberty's Edge *****

Matthew Morris wrote:
godsDMit wrote:
Mark Moreland wrote:
We're still listening and following the thread, even if we're not posting.
Is that a threat?
You forgot the smiley (I hope)

Why would I need a smiley? I could totally take that little green skinned guy. ;)

Also, I wasnt meaning you get the boon if you buy it from Paizo directly. Just meant that if you bought a copy of the book, you could pick ONE race to use to make ONE character with. If you wanted to buy 6 copies so you could play 6 different characters with special races, go for it.

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

godsDMit wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:
godsDMit wrote:
Mark Moreland wrote:
We're still listening and following the thread, even if we're not posting.
Is that a threat?
You forgot the smiley (I hope)

Why would I need a smiley? I could totally take that little green skinned guy. ;)

Also, I wasnt meaning you get the boon if you buy it from Paizo directly. Just meant that if you bought a copy of the book, you could pick ONE race to use to make ONE character with. If you wanted to buy 6 copies so you could play 6 different characters with special races, go for it.

I'm Jiggy, and I approve this message. ;)

**** RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

GM Kyle wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:
GM Kyle wrote:
The Guardtower in Columbus?
Yup, I'm old. Running First Steps II this Saturday. I'll likely see if they have the maps for FS III there.
Okay, you're on the Columbus PFS Facebook page I created. :) If I recall, are you a friend of Karen that I GMed for briefly before my deployment?

Nope, I don't know a Karen, is she single? ;-)

Sovereign Court **

I think the idea that purchasing the ARG, provides an opportunity to make one PC of a non-core race would drive the sales of that book through the roof. I'd pre-order the hardcopy right now (like before I even finish this comment) if that were the case.

Unfortunately, I don't know how they could reinforce this rule. Ideally, they would be a code on the inside of the book cover or something that could be entered on the website to unlock one PC of a non-core race for the account that entered the code. But that would take a great deal of coordination between PFS staff and the paizo staff directly responsible for the publishing of the ARG. I don't know what if any overlap there is between the two entities.

Edit: I guess the inside book cover thing wouldn't really work either, as someone could just look at the number in the book off the shelf without purchasing it. Defeating the whole point, hmmm...ideas?

Liberty's Edge *****

They could give the codes to the store owner, who then distributes them at purchase. Obviously unneeded step when purchasing directly from the site.

The code could be enterable on the site, which creates a boon for the race of the players choice.

The player enters their name,the name of the character, and player PFS on the boon, and prints. (This step could help ensure people dont just print 5 copies of the boon and try to sell them or make multiple characters with the same racial boon).

Silver Crusade ****

You know, I wouldn't be so opposed to it, if everyone got a one time boon with their purchase of an ARG. The problem is, with the current setup, I'm not sure how they'd limit it and manage it, and prevent copies and so on and so forth. I'll let the technically savvy handle that if they decide to go forward with it.

Liberty's Edge **

I'm one of those people firmly in the camp of open up the non-core races. I wasn't able to attend any cons before I moved and now that I'm in Kentucky and there is no PFS showing that I've seen thus far. I would thoroughly approve of the free boon to everyone person who purchases a book. Making a book that is partially intended to open up and flesh out the non-core races and then saying to the PFS players 'nope you can't have it,' is, in mind, counter-productive. I was really hoping to use the non-standard races when the ARG came out.

As for the 'opening of the floodgates' idea, I'm not so sure of that idea. We didn't see a flood of magi, gunslingers, oracles, samurai, ninja, or other classes when those books were released. Granted there were play-tests for many of these but I don't think we'll get the flood of them that people are saying.

Silver Crusade ****

Dunno about you, but every person who bought one of those books made one of those characters. Not sure if that constitutes a flood, but we have our fair share of non-core classes.

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Madclaw wrote:
As for the 'opening of the floodgates' idea, I'm not so sure of that idea. We didn't see a flood of magi, gunslingers, oracles, samurai, ninja, or other classes when those books were released. Granted there were play-tests for many of these but I don't think we'll get the flood of them that people are saying.

Two things:

One, we're talking about something like 16 "should be okay for PCs" races in that book, versus 1-6 new classes or whatever.

Two, I think classes and races have a different threshold of "flooding". None of the classes (to my knowledge) are said to be rare or exotic. So if there are just as many oracles as paladins, who cares? But with the races, they're supposed to be rare. If we have equal parts Halfing and Tengu, something's wrong.

Sovereign Court ***

I think the most valid argument is that the setting itself is the biggest reasons why exotic races shouldn't be allowed except for a few special cases.

Golarion is a very Human focused setting. Most Pathfinder are humans and almost all of the races in the inner sea are human or human-like. Everyone else is scum or ostracized because of their non-humanism.

Fullblooded orcs are outright banned from most major cities, tengu are regarded as filthy scum almost universally forced into slums, tieflings are hated and cast from society except for a lucky few in Cheliax and nobody likes goblinoids, even other goblinoids.

Even humanoids with Assimar or Djinn blood are going to get dirty looks Quadira.

Lantern Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Australia—Melbourne aka DarkWhite

With regards to non-core race rarity.

The Lantern Lodge now has a rather noticable presence in the Inner Sea Pathfinder Society region. Likewise, Society agents from the Inner Sea have been traveling to the East.

Tengu in TianXia are as common in TianXia as Dwarves are in the Inner Sea. In fact, I think I've played in more scenarios in which I've met a Tengu in the story, than I have Dwarves.

Tengu also appeared in Modules as early back as Godsmouth Heresy set in Kaer Maga - albeit an outcast refuge in Varisia; but hey, aren't Riddleport and other locations throughout the Inner Sea cosmopolitan ports, caravan trading routes, and/or full of outcasts too?

Now, I'm only considering Tengu as an example, but the same could be said for Aasimar, Tieflings and others, particularly if bloodline sorcerers are any example to go by.

So I really don't consider Tengu (and possibly a few other races) all that rare, and I think they can be introduced into the campaign via good scenario support, as has occurred with the Ruby Phoenix module and scenarios.

I seriously wouldn't mind if Tengu outnumbered dwarves or gnomes, which I do consider rare races due to Golarion's human-centric demography as presented thus far.

Liberty's Edge **

Daniel Luckett wrote:
Dunno about you, but every person who bought one of those books made one of those characters. Not sure if that constitutes a flood, but we have our fair share of non-core classes.

I think that this is a little bit of a hyperbole. Where I played PFS there has only been one gunslinger. One other character used guns, but only on those rare occasions when he needed a ranged weapon. I also haven't seen any samurai, ninja, cavaliers, and only one witch and magus. Yes, we've had a more than a couple alchemists and oracles but not an overabundance. But this has just been my experience. It could be different elsewhere.

As for Jiggy's comment about races and classes being different, that's true. But at the same time I don't think that every single person that buys the book is going to suddenly make a brand new characters because there's new races. There may be a number of people who do, but there are around 6 current races available from the boons. And if other races like Grippli or others are added it'll make the exotics pool bigger. In short what I'm trying to say is that there may be some influx of exotics but there are quite a few available so we may not see the impact as much.

Regarding the points raised that this could devalue the racial boon that people have received, I think it does and it doesn't. Yes, they attended a con and got a special prize and then giving that prize to everyone could make it seem less special. But the main reason, I hope, they attended the con was for the fun of attending the con and events, not getting something unique. Second, if someone has one of these boons then that means they've gotten a chance to play more scenarios with that racial boon character than those that haven't. In effect, they potentially have higher level exotic characters.

I guess the problem I have with restricting the non-core races to boon only after ARG is released is like saying, from my POV, that you need to attend a con, big or small, to play a certain class or use a specific feat that we just recently released. No, it's not exactly the same, but it's the same idea. Limiting the use of content is well within the rights of Mike and should happen. But limiting it to a few people as a prize undermines that.

Shadow Lodge *** Venture-Lieutenant, California—Silicon Valley aka JohnF

Madclaw wrote:
Where I played PFS there has only been one gunslinger. One other character used guns, but only on those rare occasions when he needed a ranged weapon. I also haven't seen any samurai, ninja, cavaliers, and only one witch and magus. Yes, we've had a more than a couple alchemists and oracles but not an overabundance. But this has just been my experience. It could be different elsewhere.

I've got a (dwarf) gunslinger as my first PFS character, and will be making my third one a magus. My wife has a cavalier. In fact at one event there were no less than three cavaliers among the nine players signed up for one scenario. I've seen a witch at a couple of tables, and a handful of oracles, alchemists and summoners. I don't believe I've run across a ninja or samurai yet.

****

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Modules Subscriber

I would like to add a bit of perspective from a new player to this discussion. I have yet to post in the message boards but thought that this topic seemed like an good place to do so.

I started playing Pathfinder in January & have enjoyed the experience. I have played now 12 session. I thus far have based my purchase of Pathfinder material for what classes I wanted to play. I wanted to play a witch, I bought the APG, I wanted to try a magus, I bought UM. I wanted to play a Katsune, I bought Dragon Empires Gazetteer. I have since put this purchase away after finding out after the fact that this race is not allowed. Lesson learned & now I more careful before making a purchase.

Now I don't want this to be taken the wrong way but the point I am working to make is as a consumer & new player; I probably will not spend $45-$55 or so on the advanced race guide if I feel like I am not getting anything out of it.

I am not making any judgement on unreleased material & look forward to seeing a copy at the local retailer I play at. My purchase of the advanced race guide will be based on my assessment of what this new book could add to the game. I like the idea of having more races to play & if this book is the gateway to that I would most likely pay for that option.

My 2 cents


Kolby Sample wrote:

Now I don't want this to be taken the wrong way but the point I am working to make is as a consumer & new player; I probably will not spend $45-$55 or so on the advanced race guide if I feel like I am not getting anything out of it.

I know a lot of players prefer to have the actual book to hold in their hands, but this book, like all the other hardcover books in the Core Rules line, will be available as a pdf for $9.99 and that is a lot more reasonable when you are not sure what will be allowed versus the $40-50 cover price. So right now you could have pdf's of all 7 currently available hardcover books that have pfs-legal material for only $70, which is less than what any two of those seven books would cost for physical copies. Add in the pdf's of the ARG and Ultimate Equipment once they are released and you are still looking at only $90 for nine very useful books.

Sovereign Court **

Enevhar Aldarion wrote:
I know a lot of players prefer to have the actual book to hold in their hands, but this book, like all the other hardcover books in the Core Rules line, will be available as a pdf for $9.99 and that is a lot more reasonable when you are not sure what will be allowed versus the $40-50 cover price. So right now you could have pdf's of all 7 currently available hardcover books that have pfs-legal material for only $70, which is less than what any two of those seven books would cost for physical copies. Add in the pdf's of the ARG and Ultimate Equipment once they are released and you are still looking at only $90 for nine very useful books.

This is true, however it does nothing to help out our local gaming stores that put up with our shenanigans on a weekly (in my group's case) basis. If I were really hurting for cash I might go with the pdfs but I do try and purchase the hard copies and support my local store. They've been very good to us players.

Shout out for Underhill's Games near Akron, Ohio. :-)


O-H!

**** RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

I O!

***** Venture-Captain, New Jersey aka Shivok

I also dont want the non-core races to overtake the core-races in PFS play, but the same thing was said about the APG/UC/UM classes and it hasnt happened. In a table of 5-6 players perhaps one or two of those are APG/UC/UM classes.

Keeping the races as a convention boon sound great until your the person who cant go to the convention on top of that not everyone at the tabe gets a convention boon.

So the question is how do we as an organized society (players & PFS Management) fix the issue where we can accomplish 2 things:

1. Limit the non-core race choices played in the campaign?

2. Play non-core races?

A Solution: Getting a non-core race boon sheet where you choose the race based on the alowed races. This would be your first chronicle for that pfs number. (like someone mentioned above).

PAIZO will get the IT department to adds a code for a psuedo-chronicle in the reporting database(like adding a scenario or module) that is the 1st scenario reported for that character. (ex. your GM reports 04-RB Race Boon for your PFS number on your first session played, if you attempted to play with another Non-core race and it tried to report it the system would say "player has previously played scenario xxxx on October 17 xxx") Basically simiiar to what happens when someone reports a a previouy playd mod/scenario.

This would be a control mechanism of sorts it would NOT prevent people from cheating (shysters will find a way no matter what).

This would also show PFS management the use of the alternate races (although not by race)

Its a solution that isnt completely the best for either group yet it allows some flexibility for both.

Dark Archive ***

I think that I'm in the middle of the pack on this one. I like the idea of additional races, but I think that they should be limited. Both because the campaign setting isn't loaded with them already (its loaded with the core races), but because part of the allure of these is that they are exotic. Why would I want to play an aquatic elf werewolf if I'll bump into three others at my weekly game?

So, I like the idea of restricting the new races to boons. Maybe a bit more often than just for attending conventions, especially as I've never been to one. Maybe VCs, VLs, 5-stars and the ilk randomly hand out one or two of these boon sheets each month at various local games. While that still doesn't help everyone, it spreads the net a bit wider.

Also, why not put 2 or 3 of these boon sheets in the book itself? They get signed, and thus consumed, when a character using one first gets played. No tearing out or photocopies allowed. If someone is desperate to play more than that, they need to go shell out for another book. Yes, that is economic tyranny, but that's OK as long as there are other ways of getting those boon sheets.

Another idea is to reduce the long term options of the new races. Cap them at 8th or 10th level or whatever. Or they have to take the slow progression. Anything that keeps them viable for play but off of the path to ultimate power.

Sovereign Court **

DougSeay wrote:

I think that I'm in the middle of the pack on this one. I like the idea of additional races, but I think that they should be limited. Both because the campaign setting isn't loaded with them already (its loaded with the core races), but because part of the allure of these is that they are exotic. Why would I want to play an aquatic elf werewolf if I'll bump into three others at my weekly game?

So, I like the idea of restricting the new races to boons. Maybe a bit more often than just for attending conventions, especially as I've never been to one. Maybe VCs, VLs, 5-stars and the ilk randomly hand out one or two of these boon sheets each month at various local games. While that still doesn't help everyone, it spreads the net a bit wider.

Also, why not put 2 or 3 of these boon sheets in the book itself? They get signed, and thus consumed, when a character using one first gets played. No tearing out or photocopies allowed. If someone is desperate to play more than that, they need to go shell out for another book. Yes, that is economic tyranny, but that's OK as long as there are other ways of getting those boon sheets.

Another idea is to reduce the long term options of the new races. Cap them at 8th or 10th level or whatever. Or they have to take the slow progression. Anything that keeps them viable for play but off of the path to ultimate power.

I like everything you mentioned, right up until the last bit about capping them or forcing them to use slow track. If they can be played, they should be able to play all the way to retirement just like everyone else.

Sovereign Court

2 people marked this as a favorite.

I was crestfallen to hear that the races aren't going to be unlocked. For me it's the raison d'être to play fantasy games is to play weird and unusual races. For PFS in particular, where there is little time for roleplaying in these rushed time blocks, having a distinct and all encompassing caricature to play off of helps bring more flavor to the table.

Couldn't there simply be boons tied to specific adventures? Just create a series of adventures that are deeply tied to a specific race, it's cultural outlook, and how the race is nestled within the campaign setting. If you play it then the cert gives you a boon to play it in PFS.

That way there is a narrative passageway that everyone has to go through to play the race. No one can just say, "Tengu are weird bird dudes" but instead will have become educated in their role and general flavor. Most people can wing playing a dwarf or elf because they are so saturated in the gaming cultural backdrop, but this kind of dramatic education would help provide a road map to how to play various races.

It also puts the breaks on a huge flowering of their presence at tables. People would have to process through the module, and perhaps for some the themes raised in the module might dissuade them from wanting to play a specific race.

Grand Lodge ***

Stephen White wrote:

With regards to non-core race rarity.

The Lantern Lodge now has a rather noticable presence in the Inner Sea Pathfinder Society region. Likewise, Society agents from the Inner Sea have been traveling to the East.

Tengu in TianXia are as common in TianXia as Dwarves are in the Inner Sea. In fact, I think I've played in more scenarios in which I've met a Tengu in the story, than I have Dwarves.

Tengu also appeared in Modules as early back as Godsmouth Heresy set in Kaer Maga - albeit an outcast refuge in Varisia; but hey, aren't Riddleport and other locations throughout the Inner Sea cosmopolitan ports, caravan trading routes, and/or full of outcasts too?

Now, I'm only considering Tengu as an example, but the same could be said for Aasimar, Tieflings and others, particularly if bloodline sorcerers are any example to go by.

So I really don't consider Tengu (and possibly a few other races) all that rare, and I think they can be introduced into the campaign via good scenario support, as has occurred with the Ruby Phoenix module and scenarios.

I seriously wouldn't mind if Tengu outnumbered dwarves or gnomes, which I do consider rare races due to Golarion's human-centric demography as presented thus far.

James Jacobs doesn't like dwarves, as I recall, and this position is not a secret. And if I recall correctly from the one post I read he's not alone in that feeling among Paizo staff (though I couldn't tell you what thread that was in). (And to be fair, it's not dwarf hate simply for the purposes of dwarf hate... he just doesn't like how they're most often portrayed; stereotypical dwarves, etc.)

This may be part of the reason why Dwarves aren't as well-represented a race among the citizens of Golarion.

Way, way back when, around the time the Bestiary was released, there was a post that may still be in the archives pertaining to monstrous races, wherein it was explained, if I recall correctly, that at least a few Paizo staffers (at the time) didn't like the idea of playable monstrous races. I, at the time, was looking for rules on how to apply the Half-Dragon template to my character and what penalties I would have to take.

There wasn't any big push from within the organization to get playable monstrous races into the game just then, and of us fans, the vocal minority was very small. Maybe that's why it's taken so long thus far. And maybe because there's a bigger vocal group interested in this, that's why Paizo has responded.

None of this, however, addresses the present topic of discussion. Relevant, but not directly. As much as I'm in the group that will probably never be able to play a Tengu character because I may never get the appropriate boon, I'm actually torn as to whether or not relegating the non-core races to Boon Chronicles is a good idea. Sure it gets people to attend conventions, but what of the majority of players who simply can't? The only reason I'm attending GenCon this year is because my FLGS is sponsoring my food and travel, and Paizo's putting me up as a Tier 1 GM. And this is my very first gaming convention at all. For all that I'm not working, it may well be my last.

Ultimately, I need more players and at least another GM before I could even benefit from it anyway. I have no chance to play because all I ever do is run. But that's another issue altogether.

Dark Archive ***

Grumph Bronzebeard wrote:
I like everything you mentioned, right up until the last bit about capping them or forcing them to use slow track. If they can be played, they should be able to play all the way to retirement just like everyone else.

I wasn't thrilled with it either, and I put it last for a reason. I was just trying to brainstorm a way to make it possible for everyone to dip their toes in the water, without flooding things. PCs have to have the option to try new things (why else do we play?) but there are real issues with changing the flavor of the setting. And limiting non-humans has been around since AD&D, so it is familiar. Although completely contrived, it does provide a game mechanism for human-centrism.

Grand Lodge ****

I am currently really enjoying the stranger races being limited access rewards as how they're handled now. I think the system we have at the moment where access to a strange race is controlled by Venture Captains as a reward is working very well.

If you want access:
-Attend an event that the Venture Captain/Lieutenant has put a lot of effort in organising.
-Start offering to GM for your VC or VL. If the VCs and VLs need more power to offer this racial reward to players who help out and grow the hobby, then so be it.

In related news, I'm really hoping that the Race guide has some wonderful feats for Tengu >:D

*

I think that you are missing the point that a lot of people have been making here.

We are asking for a way to get racial boons which is not tied to a VC because some people live in one of the numerous places with no VC and it is virtually impossible to travel to a place where we can do your two things.

**** Venture-Lieutenant, Canada—Ontario aka Feegle

Saint Caleth wrote:

I think that you are missing the point that a lot of people have been making here.

We are asking for a way to get racial boons which is not tied to a VC because some people live in one of the numerous places with no VC and it is virtually impossible to travel to a place where we can do your two things.

I respect your frustration on this point, but in my (admittedly, mostly skimming) read of the thread, there only seem to be three arguments being repeated:

1) "Leave things as they are."
2) "All races should be allowed whenever anyone wants to use them."
3) Some variation on "accessible to everyone but in limited quantities," ranging from "no photocopies; distribute with books" to "one per player."

What I haven't noticed - and again, I freely admit that it might be here but I missed it while skimming - is any suggestion on how to use them as rewards without having to have VCs hand them out. I've no idea how that might happen, but it's worth exploring.

**** RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

@Jeff

I beleive you have misstated some of the arguments.
1) "Leave things as they are."
Often advocated by the people who do have/have access to race boons.
2) "All races should be allowed whenever anyone wants to use them."
Source? I've not seen this argument anywhere.
3) Some variation on "accessible to everyone but in limited quantities," ranging from "no photocopies; distribute with books" to "one per player."
True. but you've also forgotten #4
4) Make them the same as any other resource, you have the book you can use it.

I understand the 'rewards' option. They made for nice rewards. It's time for new ones.

We are now on the cusp of a new book being released that has the new races in them. The stated goal of PFS is to support the game, to restrict the races in a book to some is to discourage the purchase of the book (as has been anecdotally shown in previous posts).

There are no certificates to 'unlock' the Gunslinger or to 'unlock' animal companions in Bestiary II or III. The argument of 'races should be rare' doesn't fly when we're already told that certain classes are rare (summoner) and there are no restrictions on their use, except buying the book. Heck we're told the majority of the characters in the Pathfinder Society aren't playing games in the faction war, but all the player characters are part of that minority that are.

Dark Archive ***** Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha

Saint Caleth wrote:

I think that you are missing the point that a lot of people have been making here.

We are asking for a way to get racial boons which is not tied to a VC because some people live in one of the numerous places with no VC and it is virtually impossible to travel to a place where we can do your two things.

In the past, they have also been tied to events, like the Beginner Box Bash. I would look to this sort of thing happening in the future and volunteer to run such an event in your area.

So there are three ways that have various difficulties to acquire a racial boon:
Attend GenCon - expensive and tough to do
Attend a more regional convention - less expensive
Run a local event tied to a national release of a new product - anyone can do.

Scarab Sages *****

Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber
Todd Morgan wrote:
Run a local event tied to a national release of a new product - anyone can do.

Let me point this one out... Anyone can do this without going through your VC.

I ran our Beginner Box Bash without going through our VC, I went directly through Mike.

If you have an idea for an event that might qualify for this, send an email to Mike to convince him.

**** Venture-Lieutenant, Canada—Ontario aka Feegle

Matthew Morris wrote:

@Jeff

I beleive you have misstated some of the arguments.
1) "Leave things as they are."
Often advocated by the people who do have/have access to race boons.
2) "All races should be allowed whenever anyone wants to use them."
Source? I've not seen this argument anywhere.
3) Some variation on "accessible to everyone but in limited quantities," ranging from "no photocopies; distribute with books" to "one per player."
True. but you've also forgotten #4
4) Make them the same as any other resource, you have the book you can use it.

My argument #2 was intended to be the same as your argument #4. A gross oversimplification, I'll grant you, but I made the assumption that races would work the same as the other rules (if it's not in the Core Assumption, you need to have the book). I apologize if that wasn't inherently clear in my statement.

I also wasn't weighing who was making each argument - you're absolutely correct that most proponents for #1 are people who already have a race boon or who have had a chance at one.

My point in my previous point was not to say that none of these options are good ones, or that one of them is better than the others. I'm on the fence, personally, and I don't (at the moment) have any inherent objection to opening up alternative races to anyone with the proper rulebook. My point was largely to point out that using them as rewards doesn't necessarily have to hinge on getting to a local VC - there might be other ways to work it.

As to the second part of your post:

Matthew Morris wrote:

I understand the 'rewards' option. They made for nice rewards. It's time for new ones.

We are now on the cusp of a new book being released that has the new races in them. The stated goal of PFS is to support the game, to restrict the races in a book to some is to discourage the purchase of the book (as has been anecdotally shown in previous posts).

There are no certificates to 'unlock' the Gunslinger or to 'unlock' animal companions in Bestiary II or III. The argument of 'races should be rare' doesn't fly when we're already told that certain classes are rare (summoner) and there are no restrictions on their use, except buying the book. Heck we're told the majority of the characters in the Pathfinder Society aren't playing games in the faction war, but all the player characters are part of that minority that are.

Again, I'm not inherently against the idea of opening up races to more people. You make some valid points here. I just saw an avenue that discussion hadn't traveled down, and thought I'd point it out.

Grand Lodge ***

Matthew Morris wrote:

@Jeff

2) "All races should be allowed whenever anyone wants to use them."
4) Make them the same as any other resource, you have the book you can use it.

I think that to Jeff, #2 means #4.

Edit: And this just goes to show that I should read the rest of the thread before posting

***** Venture-Captain, New Jersey aka Shivok

Well I can see all of the viewpoints and there are three main ideas with the pros and cons:

1. Keep the Race boons as they are.

PRO: It limits the proliferation of 'exotic races'
CON: Limits the boons to Convention attendees and select others who participate in special events (like the BBB).

2. Open all races up in PFS if they have the proper reference book.

PRO: Gives all players the opportunity to play exotic races.
CON: Opening the flood gates will inundate PFS with a variety of races which goes against the whole Golarion Human-centric model.

3. Make a hybrid of option 1 and 2 so that players other than convention goers get a chance to play races, and PFS is not flooded with a PFS tables consisting of a Drow, Tengu, Goblin, Aasimar, Fetchling, and a Gnome

PRO: It supports PFS management's past statements that the races in the boons were going to be opened up to the public when the ARG came out and keeps these long-ass threads from resurrecting themselves over and over again. :)

CON: You can't make everyone happy so an 'OMG why did you open up the ARG, race XXX is so OP' threads will pop up instead. ;P

Gotta love Gamers...we just wont ever be content.

Paizo Employee ***** Global Organized Play Coordinator

Shivok wrote:


PRO: It supports PFS management's past statements that the races in the boons were going to be opened up to the public when the ARG came out and keeps these long-ass threads from resurrecting themselves over and over again. :)
.

I honestly don't remember this ever being stated anywhere. Can you please link were these statements were made so I may have a look at them? Thanks in advance.

***** Venture-Captain, New Jersey aka Shivok

Mike,

I made that inference from your statement since you represent PFS sorry my link-fu is not good so I pasted it below. But maybe I took this out of context and this is not the case.

Michael Brock(Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator)Aug 8, 2011, 07:23 AM

I was very leary about adding races and expressed as such among the Venture Captains early this year. However, I my impression has changed. I had five or six players throughout the weekend that played these alternate races and the games still went off without a hitch. There were some excellent roleplaying opportunities that arose in game from NPCs getting to meet a particular race for the first time and for the player's to make a good first showing through their characters.

Since Paizo has put resources into producing the Advanced Race Guide, I suspect that several of the different races are going to be open to all to play."

If you noticed the tone in my last post it was meant to be snarky, I just dont think this issue is going to go away.

Shadow Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Michigan—Alma

This is the closest I saw (Of course, I believe this was before you got your current job, so it probably doesn't count... ;D)

Honestly, I wouldn't mind seeing some opened up, but if not it won't stop me from buying ARG, since I'm looking forward to favored class options for all core races and the many new classes (magus/gunslinger especially).

***** Venture-Captain, New Jersey aka Shivok

Eric Clingenpeel wrote:

This is the closest I saw (Of course, I believe this was before you got your current job, so it probably doesn't count... ;D)

Honestly, I wouldn't mind seeing some opened up, but if not it won't stop me from buying ARG, since I'm looking forward to favored class options for all core races and the many new classes (magus/gunslinger especially).

Thanks for the link and yes it was before he became PFS Coordinator exactly 1 month before he was announced, I guess once your on the inside track and know the inner workings impressions can change. :}

Paizo Employee ***** Global Organized Play Coordinator

Yeah, I believe that comment was referring to some games I ran at Gen Con that had some of the new racial boons that were given out there that people played on Friday, Saturday and Sunday.

As for the issue going away, you may be right. Mark anti discuss this topic on a weekly basis. Reading through this entire thread,I still haven't seen a realistic way of adding additional races for players who don't attend conventions. As I have said before, we are not opening the entire book so people can play any race they want. It simply isn't going to happen.

Adding print outs in the book isn't going to work. Giving out special codes won't work because there is no infrastructure in place to facilitate such a thing. Likewise, currently offering downloads to be placed in a GMs account when they earn a star isn't available because the infrastructure isn't in place to make it work correctly. I know because I asked my first week on the job.

I will continue watching this thread for other ideas.

*

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Michael Brock wrote:
Likewise, currently offering downloads to be placed in a GMs account when they earn a star isn't available because the infrastructure isn't in place to make it work correctly. I know because I asked my first week on the job.

I do hope it's at least on the list of things to make happen. Not just for this issue, it seems like that would be a really flexible tool for GM Rewards in general.

***** Venture-Captain, New Jersey aka Shivok

Michael Brock wrote:
As for the issue going away, you may be right. Mark anti discuss this topic on a weekly basis.

I know we talk about this every month in our GM-only games and the only thing we came up with was the assign the race boon a scenario number idea to limit races/cheating.

Besides that the current model will have to do.

The Exchange ***** RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Mike, I mentioned this briefly earlier in the thread, but it was part of a larger post.

I suggest simply selling specific racial boon certificates through the Paizo store. Right now, if I want to get a re-roll every session, I can buy a $20 shirt and wear it, and I'll have what amounts to a boon.

So, let's say I want to play an odd race. Some of them won't be available. but let's say I want to play an oread, and PFS offers an oread boon. So, I pay $10, and get a Chronicle sheet, and I can play my oread.

It's accessible to anybody, but the cost decelerates people's tendency to buy a dozen of them for their next characters. Oreads cost $10. Dwarves are free.

It probably won't go up for auction on e-bay for more than $10.

It might be xeroxed and passed around, but the same could be said for chronicle sheets now. And the check on that -- the on-line session reporting -- could act as a check on racial Chronicles: the player needs to register the character

.

*

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Chris Mortika wrote:
It might be xeroxed and passed around, but the same could be said for chronicle sheets now. And the check on that -- the on-line session reporting -- could act as a check on racial Chronicles: the player needs to register the character.

...also, the watermark. I see two people with the same name at a table, I'm probably going to be a bit suspicious.

Paizo Employee ***** Global Organized Play Coordinator

Chris Kenney wrote:
Michael Brock wrote:
Likewise, currently offering downloads to be placed in a GMs account when they earn a star isn't available because the infrastructure isn't in place to make it work correctly. I know because I asked my first week on the job.
I do hope it's at least on the list of things to make happen. Not just for this issue, it seems like that would be a really flexible tool for GM Rewards in general.

I gave them a list of more than 25 things I wanted accomplished and this was on it. Like I said, this was during my first week on thhero. The change of the event calendar to the listing was one of those and it has turned out to be much more effective. In the next few months, you should see the fruition of additional items on my requests list. Eventually, I hope this will be added but it currently isn't on the short list of things I consider more pressing such as a convention and game day support request system, an easier event registration system, a better retailer sign up and prize facilitation system, and a complete revamp of the PFS landing page.

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