|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Whenever I see threads like this I try to balance what is necessary versus what is neat.
New races aren't necessary, but they sure are neat.
Because they aren't necessary, there really no reason we have to open the ARG up. Because they are neat, it would be nice to have a method to get them.
A lot of people keep implying that these are only available at conventions. That simply isn't true. It does need to be an 'event' but that event isn't necessarily a convention. Sure, it's mostly through convention play. I'm not adverse into opening them more but nothing I've seen offered up in the thread really seems to work in my mind.
They need to be rare and special. It needs to be enforcable.
I've seen arguments before along the lines of 'This should be open because these creatures exist'. Yes, these creatures do exist, but you are completely ignoring the rarity of them. Everyone wants a character to be 'special'. But they don't have to be from a rare race to be special. I don't think anyone wants a 'Drizz't effect' here. I think by making these rare you are encouraging creativity as people have to find their uniqueness in deeper ways.
Anyways, just my thoughts.
|
They need to be rare and special. It needs to be enforcable.
This is sort of the idea that I think I buck up against the most. Why do we need to limit them so much! Isn't a Human with a super-human intelligence of 18 equally as rare as a Tengu or Tiefling?
Every character played in PFS is of exceptionally rare ability compared to the average commoner (unless someone specifically designed a character to not be for RP reasons I suppose). That is the nature of the game. Why is it ok to play a Gnome, Human, or Elf that is in the top 0.0001% of their race in regards to ability, but playing an unusual race has to be restricted.
This is a fantasy game, and these other races exist and they do not all seek to destroy the world. Some likely do wish to contribute to something such as the PFS. I agree the new races aren't necessary, but I think the logic that they are too rare to just allow people to make without jumping through serious hoops is silly.
I'll abide by the rules of PFS regardless, but it was mentioned when they started given out the racial boons at conventions that they intended to expand that to everyone at some point in the future. If that turns out not to be the case, I will be severely disappointed.
|
|
Every character played in PFS is of exceptionally rare ability compared to the average commoner (unless someone specifically designed a character to not be for RP reasons I suppose). That is the nature of the game. Why is it ok to play a Gnome, Human, or Elf that is in the top 0.0001% of their race in regards to ability, but playing an unusual race has to be restricted.
I think you're proving my point. You are already something special. Why do you have to be be even more special? Not to mention, if everyone's running around with the race, just how special is it? By making it rare, they make it special. This is a Campaign Setting where the CRB races are the core. The further the deviation from that, the more we aren't playing in that Campaign Setting (In this case I'm referring to the Campaign Setting being the Inner Sea, our core region)
Not to mention all the unexpected repercussions that I can already see people complaining about. Try taking a Catfolk into Ustalav and see what happens.
I'll abide by the rules of PFS regardless, but it was mentioned when they started given out the racial boons at conventions that they intended to expand that to everyone at some point in the future. If that turns out not to be the case, I will be severely disappointed.
I don't believe anyone on staff actually said this. There were a lot of people who hoped it would be the case. Can you point to a quote?
|
|
I think I may have worded that last bit poorly as I'm at work and attempting to type on here between boss appearances tehe.
I don't know that anyone ever officially stated that the races would be opened up to everyone, but I think a good number of people (myself included) assumed that when the boons were given out at GenCon last year, they were meant to be a reward to the attendees by giving them early-access to races not being published for almost another year.
If it turns out that non-core races will be forever restricted to convention boons I will be disappointed (though I saw somewhere that the beginners box bash had boons for running which I wish I had known about).
And I wasn't suggesting that you didn't have a point in saying that Human characters could be special, just that if your argument is that a Human is special, why not allow other special creatures to play as well.
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
@Clint,
Mind if I play devil's advocate?
There's already a 'tax' for playing an advanced race, if you have to have the ARG to play them. Just like to play the Alchemist and Witch you need the APG, UC to play a Gunslinger, etc.
Also, would it be as enjoyable if the APG classes, UM, UC classes, templates, etc were only 'unlocked' by the boons? Speaking as someone who enjoys his Sage bloodline sorcerer, Magus, and soon to be played Acrobat, I don't think so.
The Boons existing *prior* to the full book coming out don't bother me (as much). Being told that "You can play X-race, but only if you have a boon even if you bought the rulebook it still sucks to be you." is Unfun.
This was one thing that bothered me about Living Eberron. Being told you couldn't start with a Kalishtar or psionics unless you had a special cert (possibly a cert for each, I don't remember) REALLY angered this psionics fan who was basically told I wasn't one of the 'cool kids' who could play a core race concept for the setting.
Edit: I'm hoping to get up to pick up the kids early tomorrow, so I can sit down and help them build their own characters. When I do, I'll be using the CRB because I think it's an ethical (if not rules legal) violation to let them 'grandfather' (Well Uncle in my case) in Ninja, Gunslingers, Magi, etc because their Uncle Matt owns everything. Practicing what I preach.
|
|
I also want to emphasize the point that I don't necessarily want to play a non-core race to be special. I've always thought Tengu made cool Rogues characters, and I don't currently have a Rogue active in PFS. I'm certain that if Tengus were a racial option for me, I'd have made and started playing a PFS Rogue by now. If I then sat at a table with two other players with Tengus, I wouldn't be upset that I'm not special. If anything, it'd be cool, "the flocks back together again!"
|
|
@Clint,
Mind if I play devil's advocate?
There's already a 'tax' for playing an advanced race, if you have to have the ARG to play them. Just like to play the Alchemist and Witch you need the APG, UC to play a Gunslinger, etc.
Also, would it be as enjoyable if the APG classes, UM, UC classes, templates, etc were only 'unlocked' by the boons? Speaking as someone who enjoys his Sage bloodline sorcerer, Magus, and soon to be played Acrobat, I don't think so.
The Boons existing *prior* to the full book coming out don't bother me (as much). Being told that "You can play X-race, but only if you have a boon even if you bought the rulebook it still sucks to be you." is Unfun.
This was one thing that bothered me about Living Eberron. Being told you couldn't start with a Kalishtar or psionics unless you had a special cert (possibly a cert for each, I don't remember) REALLY angered this psionics fan who was basically told I wasn't one of the 'cool kids' who could play a core race concept for the setting.
I really like your points here, if these were class options instead of races, would everyone still be comfortable saying that you couldn't play them even if you purchased the book supporting them.
I can pretty safely say that if the non-core races are not allowed in PFS, I likely won't purchase the ARG when it comes out.
|
|
Good stuff
You make good points too Grumph.
I guess it comes down (as usual) to different play-styles. I tend to run a more limited game normally. OP tends to mimic that kind of play.
There's really no reason they couldn't open them up if they wanted to. I guess if people could come up with ideas as to why it is better for PFS for them to open it, you might catch their attention. And the attention of the VOs who tend to have opinions as varied as the posts on this topics and tend to champion them.
|
|
@Clint,
Mind if I play devil's advocate?
There's already a 'tax' for playing an advanced race, if you have to have the ARG to play them. Just like to play the Alchemist and Witch you need the APG, UC to play a Gunslinger, etc.
Also, would it be as enjoyable if the APG classes, UM, UC classes, templates, etc were only 'unlocked' by the boons? Speaking as someone who enjoys his Sage bloodline sorcerer, Magus, and soon to be played Acrobat, I don't think so.
The Boons existing *prior* to the full book coming out don't bother me (as much). Being told that "You can play X-race, but only if you have a boon even if you bought the rulebook it still sucks to be you." is Unfun.
This was one thing that bothered me about Living Eberron. Being told you couldn't start with a Kalishtar or psionics unless you had a special cert (possibly a cert for each, I don't remember) REALLY angered this psionics fan who was basically told I wasn't one of the 'cool kids' who could play a core race concept for the setting.
Like I said in response to Grumph, I like a limited campaign.
I actually like the idea that you would need to unlock certain books like UM and UC (though I'm not fooling myself as to think I'm not in the minority here).
I actually just thought of a way that might make people happy. What if there were a set of say 3 random mods in a year that if you played all 3 of those mods, you could play one of the restricted races?
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
Personally, I don't really care how we do it, as long as two things are achieved:
1) We don't start having exotic races outnumber common races.
2) We gain access to exotic races by having the ARG.
And even #2 is optional.
I'd argue #2 should be mandatory...
As to #1...
To continue my point above,
Should we start auditing to make sure that Witches don't outnumber Wizards? Oracles out number Clerics? Archtypes outnumber Base Classes?
Why not audit characters so the original 5 have to have more members than the newer factions?
If PFS is designed to support the PFRPG, then shouldn't the book (once allowed) be the price of admission?
Fluffwise, it's easy to explain why it's a 'table of tengu' an assembly of aasimar, or a cackle of catfolk on X mission. They're the exceptional ones. Just like every PC is called out for being exceptional in that they're completing secret missions for factions.
|
A lot of people keep implying that these are only available at conventions. That simply isn't true. It does need to be an 'event' but that event isn't necessarily a convention. Sure, it's mostly through convention play. I'm not adverse into opening them more but nothing I've seen offered up in the thread really seems to work in my mind.
The problem is what qualifies as an 'event'?
In general, the places which are big enough to support 'events' with five plus tables also tend to be big enough to have conventions. So essentially it's just another way of making an option available to the same groups of people.
I tend to agree with you on the idea of having races be rare and special. I just don't think it's reasonable that they are far more rare in some areas than others.
I'd prefer to play a character as long as I have purchased the book with the character option. If I spent $40 on the new Advanced Race Guide and couldn't play a Tengu, I'd be disappointed given the general rule is "if you have the book, you can use the mechanics."
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
The problem is what qualifies as an 'event'?
In general, the places which are big enough to support 'events' with five plus tables also tend to be big enough to have conventions.
Wait, the threshold to get race boons available is 5+ tables? Are you serious?
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
Don't forget that most of the ARG is devoted to new crunch involving the core races. If only that is open, and the other races boon-only, I think a lot of people will be pleased.
I won't be one of them. It won't change the 'You have to be in the right place, at the right time, to play something special. Else it sucks to be you.' problem with the boons now.
It also would be inconsistent with how other books have been opened up (in my experience). Things like WoP, Armor as DR, etc have been disallowed because they are major rules changes. The idea of running a table where half the group are using Armor as AC, and the other half are using Armor as DR is silly. Archtypes that have been disallowed are broken for the PFS format. I'll wait for someone to explain to me why a goblin, an aasimar, or a tiefling
Right now, it's like this.
"Wow, cool, how are you playing a witch?"
"Well it's legal, you just have to buy a copy of the APG."
"And how is she using a katana?"
"It's legal too, you just have to buy a copy of UC."
"And she's a tiefling?"
"Yup, I was at the right place at the right time, and got this boon."
After APG it becomes...
"Wow, cool, how are you playing a witch?"
"Well it's legal, you just have to buy a copy of the APG."
"And how is she using a katana?"
"It's legal too, you just have to buy a copy of UC."
"And she's a tiefling? So I have to buy a copy of the ARG-"
"No, I was at the right place at the right time, and got this boon. Buying the book, unlike everything else in my character, didn't give me access to the race."
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
I'd prefer to play a character as long as I have purchased the book with the character option. If I spent $40 on the new Advanced Race Guide and couldn't play a Tengu, I'd be disappointed given the general rule is "if you have the book, you can use the mechanics."
You know, I bought the Advanced Player's Guide and don't get to use Hero Points.
|
|
I tend to agree with you on the idea of having races be rare and special. I just don't think it's reasonable that they are far more rare in some areas than others.
I can cede your point. I do think there needs to be some effort expended in order to qualify for them. Driving 3-4 hours for a con is not something I have sympathy for. I have a minimum of that drive to attend cons in my area and it doesn't stop me, but that may just be a cultural thing (If you live in Nebraska you get used to long drives).
|
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
|
I'm somewhat conflicted on this.
From looking over the preliminary information on the ARG from the playtest PDF, there are some things about it that I really like from a build-to-a-concept perspective, where there's a shopping list of abilities with varying costs.
Set against that, though, is the very real probability that this will further diminish the importance of race. I have to admit that most of the time my half-elf ranger or dwarf gunslinger are indistinguishable, in play, from human equivalents. Occasionally a situation arises where there is a chance for a racial ability to make a difference. But if it's possible to buy that ability as part of any character framework, even that opportunity goes away. There will still be the advantage that the more common races have a lot of folklore associated with them, so it's a lot easier for those of us who can't make up a totally original character concept to find templates (or stereotypes) on which to base our build.
Finally, of course, there's the extra burden this places on the GM. It's already hard enough to be sufficiently well-versed in the rules to be able to run all the character classes and races you could find at a table. Making that even harder by adding another whole layer of complexity is asking a lot.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Don't forget that most of the ARG is devoted to new crunch involving the core races. If only that is open, and the other races boon-only, I think a lot of people will be pleased.I won't be one of them. It won't change the 'You have to be in the right place, at the right time, to play something special. Else it sucks to be you.' problem with the boons now.
It also would be inconsistent with how other books have been opened up (in my experience). Things like WoP, Armor as DR, etc have been disallowed because they are major rules changes. The idea of running a table where half the group are using Armor as AC, and the other half are using Armor as DR is silly. Archtypes that have been disallowed are broken for the PFS format. I'll wait for someone to explain to me why a goblin, an aasimar, or a tiefling
Right now, it's like this.
"Wow, cool, how are you playing a witch?"
"Well it's legal, you just have to buy a copy of the APG."
"And how is she using a katana?"
"It's legal too, you just have to buy a copy of UC."
"And she's a tiefling?"
"Yup, I was at the right place at the right time, and got this boon."After APG it becomes...
"Wow, cool, how are you playing a witch?"
"Well it's legal, you just have to buy a copy of the APG."
"And how is she using a katana?"
"It's legal too, you just have to buy a copy of UC."
"And she's a tiefling? So I have to buy a copy of the ARG-"
"No, I was at the right place at the right time, and got this boon. Buying the book, unlike everything else in my character, didn't give me access to the race."
The problem with this line of thought is you seem to be saying 'You are penalizing me for not going to an event' That's not the case at all. It's 'we're rewarding you for going to an event'.
Just because someone got something you didn't doesn't make you any less valid as a person or a player.
|
Those who say they won't be happy with the ARG Core Race Crunch, unless it opens "special" races, how do you know you won't like it since you haven't seen any of it?
I see that like saying, I won't like any of the Doritos brand of chips unless they have turtle flavored chips... I find it a very closed minded comment.
I recommend everyone wait till the book is out, and you actually see what's in it before you pass judgement. You know, "Not guilty of sucking till proven so, not just assumed so."
I'd prefer to play a character as long as I have purchased the book with the character option. If I spent $40 on the new Advanced Race Guide and couldn't play a Tengu, I'd be disappointed given the general rule is "if you have the book, you can use the mechanics."You know, I bought the Advanced Player's Guide and don't get to use Hero Points.
That's a very snarky response. We both know Hero Points are an optional system.
|
|
That's a very snarky response. We both know Hero Points are an optional system.I'd prefer to play a character as long as I have purchased the book with the character option. If I spent $40 on the new Advanced Race Guide and couldn't play a Tengu, I'd be disappointed given the general rule is "if you have the book, you can use the mechanics."You know, I bought the Advanced Player's Guide and don't get to use Hero Points.
Technically, every book is "optional". There are only 3 assumed books, and even they have restrictions.
Wait, the threshold to get race boons available is 5+ tables? Are you serious?The problem is what qualifies as an 'event'?
In general, the places which are big enough to support 'events' with five plus tables also tend to be big enough to have conventions.
The only numbers I remember seeing posted by Mike or Mark is 15+ tables for a weekend-long convention. Now, maybe that breaks down to 5+ for a single-day event since a normal convention is 3 days, but I have not seen that said officially anywhere yet.
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
That's a very snarky response. We both know Hero Points are an optional system.I'd prefer to play a character as long as I have purchased the book with the character option. If I spent $40 on the new Advanced Race Guide and couldn't play a Tengu, I'd be disappointed given the general rule is "if you have the book, you can use the mechanics."You know, I bought the Advanced Player's Guide and don't get to use Hero Points.
I also don't get to use Rich Parents or Magical Knack.
I bought the CRB, but don't get to craft items.
I bought UC, but don't get to use advanced firearms, siege weapons, driving feats, performance feats, or just about any gun-related archetype/feature for non-gunslingers.
The point's the same.
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
That's a very snarky response. We both know Hero Points are an optional system.I'd prefer to play a character as long as I have purchased the book with the character option. If I spent $40 on the new Advanced Race Guide and couldn't play a Tengu, I'd be disappointed given the general rule is "if you have the book, you can use the mechanics."You know, I bought the Advanced Player's Guide and don't get to use Hero Points.
More importantly, it changes the core rules. Just like Armor as DR does. That's different than "You can play an alchemist with this book" or "If you have this book, you can use a katana."
Most of the current rules in PFS have good reasons. But once the ARG comes out, we will find out what is available for play for the balance, flavor or fun of the game. But if 3/4 of the book is unable to play, I think that will make me a sad panda.
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
The problem with this line of thought is you seem to be saying 'You are penalizing me for not going to an event' That's not the case at all. It's 'we're rewarding you for going to an event'.Just because someone got something you didn't doesn't make you any less valid as a person or a player.
Not my point at all.
My point right now is "We're rewarding you for going to an event" is annoying but fine. If the Tiefling, Aasimar, etc are not opened up as the ARG comes out, it becomes "You can get additional options, except for this book. To use this part of the book, you need to be in the right place at the right time."
Post APG, it would be akin to having a boon to allow action points, or words of power, or armor as damage reduction. It goes from "You must have a boon to access this neat thing," to "You must have a boon to access part of that rulebook sitting in front of you."
Aside, if you have an aasimar/tengu/tiefling boon right now, do you need to have a copy of the Bestiary?
Director of Brand Strategy
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Until Mike and I have a chance to really dig into the book and look at all the options available, we can't even say with certainty what percentage of the material will be available even for the core races. We won't know until our copies come in. So while we're listening to everyone's input, we can't really make any definitive statements at the moment regarding what will and won't be open from the book.
But what alternate racial abilities are legal and what races a player can play are two different things. Whether or not race boons are something a player can only get at a convention or are available in other venues, we currently have no plans to open up non-core races without a boon granting a player the ability to create a PC of that race. Maybe we'll make those boons available through other means, but it's too early to tell at this point. The current system of using them as incentives to increase Pathfinder Society's presence at conventions is less than a year old. Let's give it time to see if it's working the way we want it to before we start changing things.
There are tons of racial options for existing races in the Advanced Race Guide, and human, elf, dwarf, gnome, halfling, half-elf, and half-orc PCs will all find something potentially useful in the book. For those players with other races (however they were made legal for those players) they may have access to variant racial options for their specific race.
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
For those players with other races (however they were made legal for those players) they may have access to variant racial options for their specific race.
Edit for politeness.
Thank you for commenting in this thread Mark.
To be honest, if this comes to pass, it really disturbs me. I feel such a thing would be no different than a boon to allow hero points or a boon to allow armor as DR.
|
|
I tend to agree with you on the idea of having races be rare and special. I just don't think it's reasonable that they are far more rare in some areas than others.I can cede your point. I do think there needs to be some effort expended in order to qualify for them. Driving 3-4 hours for a con is not something I have sympathy for. I have a minimum of that drive to attend cons in my area and it doesn't stop me, but that may just be a cultural thing (If you live in Nebraska you get used to long drives).
I'm ok with effort. I just don't care for the idea that it's a lot more effort for some than others. Currently, people in bigger cities have access to more player options than people in more rural areas.
|
|
I guess my point comes down to this.
I don't see a NEED for the races to be readily available. I do see a WANT, and to me, a want isn't good enough.
Please (and I'm not trying to be a sarcastic jerk, I honestly want you to do this) show me where I'm wrong.
Jiggy's semi-sarcastic remark about what isn't available kind of hits the point. The only real difference here is that what isn't being made availble is really cool.
There are plenty of fluff and balance issues with the new races (they were never created to be the equal of the current ones) to shy away from allowing them. Show me the reasons they should be allowed.
|
Director of Brand Strategy
|
There are in-game prerequisites for any number of feats, equipment, spells, alterante class abilities, prestige classes, etc. If we were to, hypothetically, say that everything in the ARG was legal for play, that wouldn't change the fact that unless you meet the prereq of needing to be a tengu to take a tengu archetype or a tiefling to get alternate tiefling racial traits, you can't take those features.
As I said before, what is and isn't made an Additional Resource from the ARG and what races a particular player has access to are two different things that are being conflated because the races' base stats will be reprinted in the ARG as well. if folks have an issue with how the campaign currently grants access to non-core races, that's a legitimate opinion that we want to hear. But it has little to do with what we do and don't make available when the ARG comes out.
|
|
Those who say they won't be happy with the ARG Core Race Crunch, unless it opens "special" races, how do you know you won't like it since you haven't seen any of it?
I see that like saying, I won't like any of the Doritos brand of chips unless they have turtle flavored chips... I find it a very closed minded comment.
I recommend everyone wait till the book is out, and you actually see what's in it before you pass judgement. You know, "Not guilty of sucking till proven so, not just assumed so."
I can only speak for myself here, but I'm not suggesting that the crunch for the core races in ARG will suck. I'm just stating that I'm completely disinterested in purchasing another book for more, let's say, Dwarf-related crunch. I already own the Dwarves of Golarion, and there is plenty of Dwarfiness available elsewhere. The only true reason that I'm interested in purchasing the ARG is for the non-core race stuff.
And your Doritos analogy is just silly. A more appropriate analogy would be if they said to you, for an extra 50 cents a bag you can eat a slight variation on Cool Ranch flavored doritos. No thanks, I like the original cool ranch doritos just fine, no need to pay extra for more of the same. But turtle-flavored doritos, hmmm, now I'm intrigued, maybe even enough to purchase that pricey bag of flavor.
|
|
I'm ok with effort. I just don't care for the idea that it's a lot more effort for some than others. Currently, people in bigger cities have access to more player options than people in more rural areas.
Talk to your VC about having an event of some kind. Put the word out. Just because it hasnt been done before doesnt mean it cant happen.
Last year, our local 3-day con had, I think, 10 tables of PFS run. This year (next weekend), we have 29 tables planned.
And yes, I live in a rural area.
|
|
As I said before, what is and isn't made an Additional Resource from the ARG and what races a particular player has access to are two different things that are being conflated because the races' base stats will be reprinted in the ARG as well. if folks have an issue with how the campaign currently grants access to non-core races, that's a legitimate opinion that we want to hear. But it has little to do with what we do and don't make available when the ARG comes out.
Yes, I think my main point is that I have an issue with how the campaign currently grants access to the non-core races. I believe that some of them make for very interesting and fully-functional character concepts in the setting. I'm frustrated that what should be pure excitement for the upcoming release of the ARG, is instead mixed with sadness as I do not currently have a racial boon to enjoy some of the book. And I've seen several times that the campaign coordinator has strongly hinted that the non-core races will not be made available to the general public.
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
The difference there Matt is just how rare things are. The ratio of Oracles to Clerics, or Silver Crusade to Cheliax in the campaign world are higher by many degrees than say the number of catfolk to elves.
Not to mention, races are 'cool'. So they make perfect rewards.
Missed this...
Clint,
And Summoners have been stated/implied to be the rarest class in Golarion. So shouldn't there be a Summoner to Wizard ratio? My point is, using an 'in world' reason to restrict races to an out of world set of events (being in the right place at the right time) when no similar precident exists before.
Point is, right now the boons are the only available way to make races outside the CRB. If this doesn't change with the release of the APG, then races will be the only option that isn't expanded with the release of the associated book. I don't really care about 'cool'. Cool can quickly become snobbery.
As Ogre mentioned, the people and areas likely to support events are also the people and areas likely going to Cons, this leads back to the 'exclusivity' clause. While my own reasons are unique, it doesn't change that there are some people who don't have an option to go to X event or convention, for reason of distance, time or money. Really, the ARG is what, $40.00? Less for the PDF? That's still a gateway 'entrance fee'.
Edit so I'm not spamming:
Mark,
Again, there's a difference between "In game mechanics" and "Boons." I don't think anyone is arguing that an elf should be able to take a tengu archtype. If you are implying such, that's a pretty blatant strawman. There's a big difference between "You have to be a magus to use a magus arcana" and "You have to have been to X event in real life to play a tengu."
I for one, am not conflating the two. I don't need a boon to play a Gunslinger, even though they're printed in UC. I don't need a boon to use a trait from Inner Sea Magic, or use Infernal Healing. I'm not seeing the comparison between "You can't use this completely altered set of mechanics the GM will need to keep in mind every time combat breaks out" (armor as DR) and "You can't use this race that is in a published book." The Bestiaries have *never* been allowed for races. That's why I was asking if players needed a copy of the Bestiary to use their Tengu boon. Even if they did, I'd point out that such a requirement incentivises the player to make a purchase. By saying "Bill there can use the stuff in your book, but you can't." it discourages someone to buy the ARG, costing Paizo a sale.*
If the decision is made to disallow the new races from the ARG, unless you have a boon, it breaks with every precident. It's also discouraging. Would the new classes have been met with as much enthusiasm if we needed boons to play Magi, Gunslingers and Samurai? Would the new lodges have been accepted with as much fanfare if we needed boons to be part of the Shadow Lodge?
*
|
Director of Brand Strategy
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
And I've seen several times that the campaign coordinator has strongly hinted that the non-core races will not be made available to the general public.
Never is a very strong word that we try to avoid, as things do change. But it is true that we currently have no plans to open them up except through boons. This has so far been a powerful incentive to drive up Pathfinder Society numbers at conventions, and the stronger showing we make in places where our numbers are most visible, the better that is for the campaign. There may come a time when players are no longer incentivized by special convention boons, at which time we'll have to look into other options, but for now, the current method of distribution has only been going for eight months so we're not quite to that point yet.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
You know, I bought the Advanced Player's Guide and don't get to use Hero Points.
Nope. Neither does anyone else. I see that as qualitatively different from a situation where certain players who attend GenCon or PaizoCon do get to use Hero Points. In that case, buying the APG and being denies that resource strikes me as something more worthy of complaint.
---
If I recall correctly, there has been hue and cry on the Pathfinder Society boards when people win boons and then auction them off. (It's absolutely legal, but strikes people as tawdry or unseemly.) I am absolutely confident that this practice will become more pronounced should the Advanced Race Guide produce a strong hunger in the player base for playing a non-core race.
Hell, I could pay for Gen-Con if I won two racial boons and sold them for $50 each.
--
Here's a suggestion: Paizo could simply sell the boon certificates, the same way they sell reroll shirts.
|
|
And I've seen several times that the campaign coordinator has strongly hinted that the non-core races will not be made available to the general public.Never is a very strong word that we try to avoid, as things do change. But it is true that we currently have no plans to open them up except through boons. This has so far been a powerful incentive to drive up Pathfinder Society numbers at conventions, and the stronger showing we make in places where our numbers are most visible, the better that is for the campaign. There may come a time when players are no longer incentivized by special convention boons, at which time we'll have to look into other options, but for now, the current method of distribution has only been going for eight months so we're not quite to that point yet.
Mark, thanks for the response and being very clear that the boons appear to be a marketing tool to drive up numbers at conventions. I fully understand that from a business prospective and accept that is possibly the best decision for PFS as a whole.
That doesn't change my personal stance that as a doctoral student that has neither the time nor inclination to travel far and wide for the chance at a convention boon, I'm disappointed by this strategy. I want to see the society prosper as a whole, but this limits my personal enjoyment of the campaign, as there will be parts of it that others get to enjoy that I likely never will.
I will add that while I don't travel to conventions, I do support the game as much as possible through the purchasing of books, scenarios, etc. and in am many ways the unofficial voice of authority for my local gaming group.
|
Director of Brand Strategy
|
I'm going to take a step back from the conversation and let it continue as it was before I commented, as I don't want to step on Mike's toes (as the guy who will ultimately make the decisions regarding both boons and the ARG). We're still listening and following the thread, even if we're not posting.