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{stuff on damage}
You completely miss the point. Wizards and clerics et al can do crazy sh*t that has nothing to do with damage. The fighter is there to do damage, it's what he is best at.
The first fixes I institute are general fixes, which help out everybody. Firstly, feats in my games scale. If you have Improved Trip, you also gain the benefit of Greater Trip if and when your BAB is +6 or better--and I rule that a monk's Maneuver Training lets them use their monk level to determine when that scaling happens. I also alter TWF to not only scale, but also allow one attack with each weapon as a standard action, allowing two weapon fighters or flurrying monks to move and still get an extra attack.
I allow monks to be of any alignment, but an alignment shift temporarily inhibits their ki due to the inner turmoil. This is more a matter of flavor than a fix, but it is relevant to the next fix, which is the meat of things.
I alter how Ki Strike works. I drop the 'penetrate these DRs when you have at least one Ki'; instead, their unarmed strike gets a +1 enhancement bonus for every 4 levels of monk, penetrating DR according to the usual rules--I might even make it so that the enhancement bonus penetration only works for Ki-Striking monks; I feel that might revalue DR while providing monks with something unique. As well, by spending 1 point of ki, they can add magical properties to their unarmed strike, a la a paladin's divine bond, with 1 enhancement 'point' to spend per 4 levels of monk. The properties they can add are Agile, Anarchic, Axiomatic, Corrosive, Flaming, Frost, Ghost Touch, Guided, Holy, Shock, and Speed, though they cannot add alignment-based weapon properties if they are not of that alignment. If they are wielding a weapon with the Ki Focus property, they can use this ability to add weapon properties to that weapon--in which case they can also add Dabbler's Greater Ki Focus property.
Other minor fixes are making Wholeness of Body a swift action, and making their movement bonus untyped.
Thoughts? Any idea how to word it more succinctly?
I would be wary of making the monk too equipment independent. Remember that without Vow of Poverty the monk is essentially going to get the same value of gear as everyone else, except he doesn't have to pay for a weapon or weapons save for flavour. That gives him more to spend on utility and defence, which could make him unstoppable.
We had the same issue on the Dreamscarred boards working on the soulknife: he does not have to pay for a weapon, so you have to ensure he has sufficient weaknesses that he has to spend his resources on covering. This meant that some concepts that were cool had to be scrapped because they made him just too good.
With the monk's AC bonuses, he can get his AC through the roof with enough to spend, and not having to spend cash on weapons or the old AoMF is very big advantage.
I would be wary of making the monk too equipment independent. Remember that without Vow of Poverty the monk is essentially going to get the same value of gear as everyone else, except he doesn't have to pay for a weapon or weapons save for flavour. That gives him more to spend on utility and defence, which could make him unstoppable.
We had the same issue on the Dreamscarred boards working on the soulknife: he does not have to pay for a weapon, so you have to ensure he has sufficient weaknesses that he has to spend his resources on covering. This meant that some concepts that were cool had to be scrapped because they made him just too good.
With the monk's AC bonuses, he can get his AC through the roof with enough to spend, and not having to spend cash on weapons or the old AoMF is very big advantage.
I think--and I'm willing to be proved wrong here--that a balancing factor in this fix is that Ki points are pretty limited compared to, say, rounds of rage or bardic performance, particularly given the wide array of things that they power, and maintaining the weapon independence this Ki Strike variant provides effectively means they always have one less ki point. (In case it wasn't clear, their Ki Strike still only functions as long as they have ki points remaining.)
Moreover, before at least 12th level, they still need a weapon to penetrate material-based DR, and the weapon will not benefit from the Ki Strike enhancement bonuses, and they'll have to pay for at least a +1 enhancement bonus and _Ki Focus_ before they can add 'free' properties to it.
I agree it's a balancing factor, but not a huge one. The use of a ki point to add properties is hardly balanced at all compared to the paladin - the paladin's feature functions a few times per day, this one functions as many times (in theory) as you have ki points (or ki points -1, if you want to keep one). Now if you had to blow a ki-point per +1 equivelant you added...
I agree it's a balancing factor, but not a huge one. The use of a ki point to add properties is hardly balanced at all compared to the paladin - the paladin's feature functions a few times per day, this one functions as many times (in theory) as you have ki points (or ki points -1, if you want to keep one). Now if you had to blow a ki-point per +1 equivelant you added...
I did consider that one, but I'm not sure of how to word it to keep monks from getting access to +5 worth of properties at 4th level in that case...
Use limits: introduce the feature at 6th level with +1 worth of properties, and add +1 per 4 levels. Each +1 worth of properties costs a ki point and lasts a minute.
I still think the enhancement should be limited to a to-hit bonus, BTW.
I like the various monk redesigns presented in this and other threads, but as these are mostly too different to be introduced into our campaign, I would like to try my hands at one myself which is mostly centered around ki (and mobility).
To keep the changes to a minimum (and because I actually like it) I'll keep ki actions fast actions (swift or faster) with very short duration (at most 1r) and not subject to AoO.
Centerpieces are:
- keep flurry like it was
- add enhanced 5 foot step for more mobility
- increase ki pool
- recover ki faster (not sure about that)
- add swift ki actions giving a +4 bonus to something
- allow one free ki action (of the swift variety, so no abundant step) per round later on
- allow one immediate ki action instead of a free ki action per round later on
In detail:
- flurry has nothing to do with TWF keeping the spirit of "using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon".
- enhanced 5 foot step like suggested in other designs (+5 ft per 4 monk levels, i.e. at level 20 a monk would have a 25 ft step)
- ki pool is equal to monk level + Wis modifier (not half level)
- Extra Ki likewise would give +4 ki (not +2)
- recovering ki faster might allow to recover Wis modifier ki points upon resting 2h (this would balance the short durations). The ki pool is still completely replenished each morning after 8h of rest.
- additional swift actions using 1 ki (not sure at which levels these would become available):
+4 on attacks for 1r
+4 on damage for 1r
+2/+2 on attacks/damage for 1r
DR 4 for 1r
- Wholeness of body costs just 1 ki and is a swift action
- Abundant step clarified to be a normal move action
- Diamond soul can be improved by +4 for 1r as a swift action for 1 ki
- at level 7 (?) once per round a swift ki action can instead be used as a free action (being able to use a second ki action as swift action, burning ki like crazy :-)
- at level 10 (?) once per round a swift ki action can instead be used as an immediate action (so I can improve my AC just when about to hit, for example). This would make monks be able to save on ki and spend it better. This replaces the ability to use a swift ki action as a free action.
Any suggestions and comments welcome!
Keeping modifications to a minimum was my objective as well. In general I don;t have a lot of problems with the monk's design, save that it encourages people to make just one kind of monk to be effective. If you have mediocre stats and pick poor feats, you are going to suck with the monk as is, there is no redundancy to save you, and very little flexibility to personalise your monk the way the barbarian, fighter, paladin, ranger or rogue can do.
I wanted to make a monk that you could fit over an existing monk and they lose nothing.
Regarding your ideas:
The problem with hinging the abilities on ki is that ki is a very limited resource compared to bardic performance or barbarian rage. I note that you suggest increasing ki pool, but not what to - Wis bonus + level?
The other problem is that a flat +4 to hit or damage is too much at low level, and not quite enough at high level. Perhaps a sliding bonus would be better?
I do like some of the changes in other ki powers, I think they bring the monk up to calibre with the other classes.
...very little flexibility to personalise your monk the way the barbarian, fighter, paladin, ranger or rogue can do.
Agreed. In my case that's not a problem as it fits the monk I'm currently playing quite well and I'm trying to find a design which could be acceptable for our DM in the running campaign.
For a more thorough redesign I like Ashiels psychic monk most but that would change my current character too much to fit. Yours would fit better, of course, as you tried to keep changes to a minimum as well, although I don't think that my DM would like the inherent attack bonuses, for example. The Ki feats you designed are nice as well, but I already have problems to decide between some favorite feats, so I'm looking for a fix not requiring feats.The problem with hinging the abilities on ki is that ki is a very limited resource compared to bardic performance or barbarian rage. I note that you suggest increasing ki pool, but not what to - Wis bonus + level?
Yes, exactly, that was a bit hidden in the detail list :-)
Extra Ki would increase likewise to giving +4 ki (and the favored bonus available to human monks would increase to 1/2 ki per level, accordingly).Combined with a faster recovery (although I'm not sure whether that would be really necessary) it should be comparable, although being quite a different flavor, but that's intended.
The other problem is that a flat +4 to hit or damage is too much at low level, and not quite enough at high level. Perhaps a sliding bonus would be better?
Hmm, have to think about that. The idea was to keep it simple and similar to the +4 bonus which is already used for AC. (I did hesitate when adding the +2/+2 variant for that reason.)
I hoped that at lower levels the lower number of available ki points would balance with the bonus being relatively high whereas at higher levels there are more ki points to spend.Do you have an idea for a sliding bonus?
I do like some of the changes in other ki powers, I think they bring the monk up to calibre with the other classes.
Thanks! Which ones in particular, if I may ask?
Thanks for your feedback. It's greatly appreciated!
Looking in depth at your ideas:
+4 on attacks for 1r
I would make this something like +1 per four levels, like a standard enhancement bonus. Because you are blowing ki on it, why not just make it an enhancement bonus to attack and damage, with all that carries with it?
+4 on damage for 1r
+2/+2 on attacks/damage for 1r
This would wrap these ideas up with the basic enhancement bonus. Simple enough?
DR 4 for 1r
This one I do not like. You can already gain a bonus to AC, DR is the fighter and the barbarian's thing.
- Wholeness of body costs just 1 ki and is a swift action
Is it necessary to change this if the monk gets much more ki?
- Abundant step clarified to be a normal move action
Approve!
- Diamond soul can be improved by +4 for 1r as a swift action for 1 ki
Interesting idea.
- at level 7 (?) once per round a swift ki action can instead be used as a free action (being able to use a second ki action as swift action, burning ki like crazy :-)
Interesting idea. This would burn ki but may be used to stack up too many enhancements at once.
- at level 10 (?) once per round a swift ki action can instead be used as an immediate action (so I can improve my AC just when about to hit, for example). This would make monks be able to save on ki and spend it better. This replaces the ability to use a swift ki action as a free action.
It could also make them practically untouchable. Not so sure this is a good idea.
Thanks for your thoughts, Dabbler!
- standard enhancement bonus instead of +4 on attacks for 1r
The standard enhancement bonus of +1 per four levels is too much like the fighter's weapon training in my eyes, although you are right that it is simpler. Furthermore it might free up too much ki for the other ki abilities.
- DR is the fighter and the barbarian's thing
Why is DR the fighter's thing? Barbarians I agree with. But fighters? They do not get DR, do they? On the other hand 20th level monks suddenly get DR 10, so I think it is fitting for them to have some DR earlier. It also fits stories of Shaolin monks, for example.
- Wholeness of body for 1 ki.
It seemed more natural to have all swift actions cost just 1 ki. Compared with paladins this doesn't seem to be too cheap I think, even with the increases of the ki pool.
- free ki action stacking up too many enhancements at once
Note that using a free ki action can only be done once per round. Furthermore I would not allow the same ki action to be used twice in a round. So, no +8 to AC, but rather +4 to AC and +4 to hit, for example.
- immediate action making monks untouchable
With the caveat of no ki action being able to be used more than once per round I don't think that the monk would be untouchable. He would still have to burn ki, though not in advance but just when it is needed. Protection spells like Mage armor last much longer (10 hours at that level). And you are still restricted to one immediate and one swift ki action per round.
You are welcome Liam.
- DR is the fighter and the barbarian's thing
Why is DR the fighter's thing? Barbarians I agree with. But fighters? They do not get DR, do they? On the other hand 20th level monks suddenly get DR 10, so I think it is fitting for them to have some DR earlier. It also fits stories of Shaolin monks, for example.
Fighters get DR at 19th level if they are wearing armour or have a shield. However, the DR they get and the DR that monks get is different, which is what I meant although I didn't say it very well. Fighters and barbarians get DR /- while the monk gets DR /magic. So if the ki DR was DR /magic that would make sense to me.
- free ki action stacking up too many enhancements at once
Note that using a free ki action can only be done once per round. Furthermore I would not allow the same ki action to be used twice in a round. So, no +8 to AC, but rather +4 to AC and +4 to hit, for example.
The system is currently designed such that only one ki expenditure can be made in a swift action. I grow wary of allowing more than this.
- immediate action making monks untouchable
With the caveat of no ki action being able to be used more than once per round I don't think that the monk would be untouchable. He would still have to burn ki, though not in advance but just when it is needed. Protection spells like Mage armor last much longer (10 hours at that level). And you are still restricted to one immediate and one swift ki action per round.
The problem is, it gives the monk effectively a +4 AC bonus in any round he hasn't burned ki for anything else - but he doesn't have to burn the ki for it unless he is actually attacked. That feels wrong to me, because the monk already has AC bonuses. He can already get the best AC in the pack if he tries, he doesn't need more free AC. Getting extra SHOULD cost him, even if it isn't used.
Actually, the Monk can burn all the Ki he wants in a round. Immediate actions use up your Swift Action on your following turn. So your next turn, the Monk wouldn't be able to use any swift actions, but he could still take an immediate action to enhance his AC by using his swift action for his next turn.
Point, Tels. But He can still rack up his AC at no cost if he does not have to use it.
Point, Tels. But He can still rack up his AC at no cost if he does not have to use it.
Hmm, I still fail to see why this would be unbalancing compared to the negligible cost (at 10th level) for a wizard to have +4 AC for 10 hours. Sure, the monk has no cost if he does not use it but then he pays much more if he does have to (or is it because you assume wizards of that level to all have bracers of armor anyway, so that Mage armor is of no use anymore?).
In addition I think it staple for monks to react impossibly fast to attacks. Heck, a sorcerer of the destined bloodline has +3 to AC and saving throws at 11th level (later on rising as far as +5) in the surprise round and when unaware of an attack without any cost attached either.But ok, what about trimming it down like that:
Drop the free action at level 7 and drop the immediate action at level 10 and replace this with the following:
At level 9 the monk gains the ability to use a swift ki action as immediate action once per round and up to his Wis modifier per day.
This fits well with him getting Improved evasion at that level I think, which has to do with fast reactions as well.
Furthermore to further represent the monks superhuman reactions I'd add the ability to gain +4 on initiative for 2 ki (?) at level 7.
Point, Tels. But He can still rack up his AC at no cost if he does not have to use it.Hmm, I still fail to see why this would be unbalancing compared to the negligible cost (at 10th level) for a wizard to have +4 AC for 10 hours. Sure, the monk has no cost if he does not use it but then he pays much more if he does have to (or is it because you assume wizards of that level to all have bracers of armor anyway, so that Mage armor is of no use anymore?).
Because that's an armour bonus and does not stack with armour bonuses, so unless he is gimped for bracers of armour, he gains nothing from it. The +4 to a monk's AC is a dodge bonus, and dodge bonuses DO stack, so whatever equipment the monk has he WILL gain +4 to AC.
In addition I think it staple for monks to react impossibly fast to attacks. Heck, a sorcerer of the destined bloodline has +3 to AC and saving throws at 11th level (later on rising as far as +5) in the surprise round and when unaware of an attack without any cost attached either.
That isn't the issue, though, the issue is that he is effectively gaining +4 to AC in a way that avoids expenditure of resources if it isn't needed. The wizard above still has to blow a spell-slot whether or not he gets attacked. With this ability the monk doesn't have to assess the situation and say to himself 'OK, that guy is about to really unload on me, I'd better go defensive this turn and make myself unhittable' he can just breeze through and use it if he gets attacked and keep his ki if he doesn't.
But ok, what about trimming it down like that:
Drop the free action at level 7 and drop the immediate action at level 10 and replace this with the following:
At level 9 the monk gains the ability to use a swift ki action as immediate action once per round and up to his Wis modifier per day.
This fits well with him getting Improved evasion at that level I think, which has to do with fast reactions as well.
It's not the justification of fast reactions that concerns me, it's the "don't get attacked no need to spend ki" option that concerns me. As I said, as long as he has ki in his pool the monk can jack his AC up by another 4. Having to do this in advance of getting attacked on a round-by-round basis is the balancing factor, and you are taking that away.
Furthermore to further represent the monks superhuman reactions I'd add the ability to gain +4 on initiative for 2 ki (?) at level 7.
That's not a bad idea, I like that one.
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My Monk Fixes:
The Monk’s unarmed damage progression, AC bonus, and movement are changed as follows:
1: 1d4/+0/+0 ft
2-6: 1d6/+1/+10 ft
7-11: 1d8/+2/+20 ft
12-16: 1d10/+3/+30 ft
17-20: 1d12/+4/+40 ft
These numbers are for a Medium creature. Adjust damage normally if their size is either greater or lesser.
However a Monk does receive a damage bonus equal to his Wisdom modifier on unarmed attacks and with all Monk weapons. A Zen Archer monk may do this with bows only when using his ki arrows ability.
The Monk is a full Base Attack Bonus Class. This makes the Flurry of Blows ability a bit less necessary. Maneuver Training is also thus completely redundant and does not exist. This doesn't change their hit die size.
If the Monk does not otherwise move in a round, the +20 ft movement use of Ki points allows the Monk to move 20 ft + Monk bonus Speed as a Swift Action that provokes Attacks of Opportunity normally. If the Monk does otherwise move, it remains only a +20 ft bonus.
Amulet of Mighty Fists: In addition to providing a bonus on attacks, an AoMF also provides a bonus to Natural Armor equal to it’s rating, whether that rating is taken up by actual bonuses or effects such as Flaming. So a +1 Shocking, Flaming, Amulet of Mighty Fists also provides a +3 enhancement bonus to Natural Armor.
I really think that covers most of the problems.
Not sure about that, Deadmanwalking.
A full BAB class, at level 20, he is +20 to hit from BAB. So if he doesn't flurry, he is all of +2 better off to hit (+5 on a single attack, but that is not the meat and drink of melee). The AoMF is still capped on the total bonus he has available. His AC bonus is slightly less, hit points are slightly more. His unarmed damage is a lot less.
So compared to the existing monk, who's problem was not damage but hitting, you are at most +2 better off to hit, and can match the hit chances of the other full BAB classes (assuming no special properties on the AoMF in order to gain the maximum hit bonus). Damage wise you are now much worse off than you were, with a base 1d12 damage and no special properties from the AoMF because you needed them to hit, you've effectively exchanged +2 to hit when not flurrying (or +5 on the rare standard attack) for the loss of 4.5 points of damage, and I think that might actually reduce average damage output given that full attacking on a flurry is still your best way of inflicting damage.
I do like the ki-movement as a swift action, but that's all that I can see that significantly advantages this monk over the original.
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I do like the ki-movement as a swift action, but that's all that I can see that significantly advantages this monk over the original.
To clarify, in case it was unclear, that adding Wisdom to all Monk damage is in addition to Strength (or Dex if you're willing to cap your AoMF at +4 in addition to Agile). I think that makes up for the damage loss.
And, indeed, I only dropped the unarmed strike damage in order to make that fact not make the damage excessive. I mean, we're talking an easy +12 to damage from stats alone by 20th level, here. Possibly a lot more than that.
And I think the revised Amulet more than makes up for the slight loss from raw Monk in AC (which was never a huge problem past low levels anyway).
I see the monk's problems as twofold:
1) MADness. They need too many good stats to be effective.
Adding wisdom bonus to damage would help this, but you've downgraded the unarmed strike damage to compensate, so the monk is almost as dependent on Strength a he ever was.
2) Hitting the target. Monk's unarmed strike suffers from not being able to gain in bonus to hit and from weapon properties to the same extent as other combat classes can gain. This means that flurry of blows often becomes flurry of misses.
Full BAB does not really affect this that much, save on single attacks. Adding the amulet of natural armour to the AoMF effects is nice, but really the problem of the cost and limitations of the AoMF is still there, it just doesn't sting quite so bad that you have to lose out on AC to get it.
So no, I don't agree it covers most of the problems, it just fixes a few peripheral ones.
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I see the monk's problems as twofold:
1) MADness. They need too many good stats to be effective.
Adding wisdom bonus to damage would help this, but you've downgraded the unarmed strike damage to compensate, so the monk is almost as dependent on Strength a he ever was.
He can make do with just Wisdom to damage until he can grab an Agile amulet of Mighty Fists if he wants to do without.
And the MADness is a problem, I'll grant, but it's not by any means the biggest problem Monks have.
2) Hitting the target. Monk's unarmed strike suffers from not being able to gain in bonus to hit and from weapon properties to the same extent as other combat classes can gain. This means that flurry of blows often becomes flurry of misses.
Full BAB does not really affect this that much, save on single attacks. Adding the amulet of natural armour to the AoMF effects is nice, but really the problem of the cost and limitations of the AoMF is still there, it just doesn't sting quite so bad that you have to lose out on AC to get it.
It makes the AoMF cost commensurate with it's benefits. I'd probably also allow AoMF of higher than +5 (though probably ony to +6 or +7) in the same way as weapons though it's honestly not come up yet (I usually don't get past the point of non-Monk PCs having +5 or less weapons, after all).
The BAB thing isn't mostly to help their to-hit chances, it's to make them eligible for various Feats at the apropriate times, as well as keeping their BAB fom being wonky.
And they're getting, what, +5 less to hit than a TWF Fighter? Total? And equivalent or greater damage. In exchange for a huge variety of potentially useful secondary powers and vastly better saves. And with the ability to move and Full Attack, to boot. That strikes me as reasonable. Hell, they're doing miles better on to-hit than the Rogue, and making more attacks (admittedly for less damage) to boot.
So no, I don't agree it covers most of the problems, it just fixes a few peripheral ones.
The AoMF being kinda crap, low damage, and the inability to actually get into position for FoB always struck me as the Monk's main problems (well, aside from MADness). I solved those.
Low to-hit per se...strikes me as mainly being an artifact of the AoMF being crap and the class's MADness, not any inherent need for an additional accuracy enhancer.
I mean, I've seen a Monk in play with well-rolled stats (to compensate for MADness) and well into the mid levels, even with a weapon-property adding AoMF, he never had a lot of trouble hitting while flurrying, just wasting turns getting there to flurry, and doing damage when he did (though we did fight a lot of things with DR).
I'm not really trying to equalize their DPR with a Fighter's. That would be kinda unfair to the poor Fighter (who's not got alot else going for him, comparatively), just make them effective and fun. I think my changes do that.
Ok, I'll drop the immediate (and free) ki actions altogether.
By the way I didn't know the restriction mentioned by Tels that an immediate action counts as the next swift action. That seems to be an errata as it is not in the printed book.
Dabbler, you asked about the DR a couple of posts back. It would be DR/chaotic like with Perfect self.
With regards to the adapted cost of Wholeness of body: while the cost of 1 ki for 1 hp/level with a ki pool of 1/level + Wis modifier would be comparable to the paladin's lay on of hands but restricted to the monk himself (and draining his ki pool), I'll tweak it a little bit: let it heal 2 hp/level for 3 ki. So instead of doubling the hp healed per ki point I improve healing by 33% but make healing twice as fast to compensate.
I decided to drop the ki action providing +2/+2 bonus to attack/damage, staying with the simpler and more clear cut ones of adding +4 either to attack or to damage.
To recap:
Clarifications:
- flurry has nothing to do with TWF keeping the spirit of "using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon".
- Abundant step is a normal move action for all intents and purposes
Mobility:
- enhanced 5 foot step like suggested in other designs (+5 ft per 4 monk levels, i.e. at level 20 a monk would have a 25 ft step). This counts as 5 foot step for all intents and purposes, e.g. it does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The monk can distribute his flurry attacks to happen before, after and in-between as he likes.
Larger Ki pool:
- ki pool is equal to monk level + Wis modifier
- Extra Ki likewise would give +4 ki (not +2)
- ki is recovered faster, allowing the monk to recover Wis modifier ki points upon resting 2h (this would balance the short durations). The ki pool is still completely replenished each morning after 8h of rest.
More Ki powers:
- additional swift actions using 1 ki:
- +4 on attacks for 1r (6th level) [pushed to 6th level for balance]
- +4 on damage for 1r (6th level) [same]
- DR 4/chaotic for 1r (7th level)
- +4 to Diamond body (SR) for 1r (11th level)
- add +4 to initiative for 2 ki (7th level)
- Wholeness of body heals 2 hp/level, costs 3 ki and is a swift action
Reduced MAD (or: get more back from all those attributes):
- add Wis modifier to initiative in addition to Dex modifier (7th level) (Note: being able to add that modifier in addition to ki powered bonus of +4 is no problem I think, because bonuses for initiative count about half compared to bonuses for other d20 rolls because in the case of initiative the other side rolls, too, so in effect 2d20 are rolled).
Furthermore I'm toying with adding Uncanny dodge at 5th level and Improved Uncanny dodge at 10th level.
I see the monk's problems as twofold:
1) MADness. They need too many good stats to be effective.
Adding wisdom bonus to damage would help this, but you've downgraded the unarmed strike damage to compensate, so the monk is almost as dependent on Strength a he ever was.He can make do with just Wisdom to damage until he can grab an Agile amulet of Mighty Fists if he wants to do without.
And the MADness is a problem, I'll grant, but it's not by any means the biggest problem Monks have.
One of the biggest, though. The monk that wants to drop strength has to invest in multiple feats and an agile weapon just to have half a chance.
It makes the AoMF cost commensurate with it's benefits. I'd probably also allow AoMF of higher than +5 (though probably ony to +6 or +7) in the same way as weapons though it's honestly not come up yet (I usually don't get past the point of non-Monk PCs having +5 or less weapons, after all).2) Hitting the target. Monk's unarmed strike suffers from not being able to gain in bonus to hit and from weapon properties to the same extent as other combat classes can gain. This means that flurry of blows often becomes flurry of misses.
Full BAB does not really affect this that much, save on single attacks. Adding the amulet of natural armour to the AoMF effects is nice, but really the problem of the cost and limitations of the AoMF is still there, it just doesn't sting quite so bad that you have to lose out on AC to get it.
That's part of the way there. The big problem with it is the +5 cap and the price. They are not problems if the monk's unarmed strike gains an enhancement bonus on it's own; the price could be reduced and the fact that the amulet takes up a slot the monk needs doesn't matter because you can afford the 150% hike to get it enchanted with a bonus to natural armour anyway. The cap is the biggest problem, far and away.
The BAB thing isn't mostly to help their to-hit chances, it's to make them eligible for various Feats at the apropriate times, as well as keeping their BAB fom being wonky.
Which is all well and good, but many feats they might want either have clauses to allow monks to take them lower or are available as bonus feats for the monk.
And they're getting, what, +5 less to hit than a TWF Fighter? Total?
No, they are +5 behind the paladin not smiting and the ranger not against his favoured enemy. The monk is +10 to hit behind the fighter once you factor in weapon training and Greater Weapon Focus.
looking at each combat class' abilities, leaving aside all their other abilities, they are combat classes, they need to fight. That means hitting the enemy, when all is said and done.
Paladin has smite evil, which is AWESOME. +Char bonus to hit, +level to damage.
Ranger has favoured enemy. Up to +10 to hit and damage a particular type of foe, and several lesser options, plus his fighting style and favoured terrain.
Fighter has weapon training, along with Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialisation, Greater Weapon Specialisation for +6 to hit and +8 damage against everything.
Monk has flurry of blows and unarmed strike. Flurry of blows is good, but the unarmed strike is second rate.
And equivalent or greater damage.
That's a very dubious statement. Fighter probably has greater strength, up to +8 to damage from his various feats and abilities, and uses weapons with way greater threat ranges (and they make a big difference).
So at 20th level, monk hits for 2d10 damage, + strength + AoMF.
At 20th level, fighter (assume short swords, not optimal but common) hits for 1d6+8, + strength + weapon properties + twice the threat range.
AoMF is capped at +5, so you either lose on hitting or properties that can damage, your choice.
So with equal properties, the monk is +10 to hit behind, and average damage is down by a few points. If he beefs up to +5 behind to hit, he's got slightly better average base damage, no properties and still half the threat range.
Whichever way I look at it, the monk is badly behind.
In exchange for a huge variety of potentially useful secondary powers and vastly better saves. And with the ability to move and Full Attack, to boot. That strikes me as reasonable. Hell, they're doing miles better on to-hit than the Rogue, and making more attacks (admittedly for less damage) to boot.
OK, lets run a comparison with the other combat classes in non-combat:
Paladin - equal on saves, same number of powers plus spells.Ranger - behind on one save, some decent powers plus spells.
Fighter - behind on two saves, and all the feats you can eat.
Barbarian - behind on two saves, plenty of nice powers.
So no, I don't agree it covers most of the problems, it justThe AoMF being kinda crap, low damage, and the inability to actually get into position for FoB always struck me as the Monk's main problems (well, aside from MADness). I solved those.
I do like the idea of the move as a swift action. That is a potential solution, all right. Low damage isn't the monk's problem as long as you are not trying to beat the fighter, being able to hit is the problem - add on all the damage you like, if you do not connect, you do no damage.
Low to-hit per se...strikes me as mainly being an artifact of the AoMF being crap and the class's MADness, not any inherent need for an additional accuracy enhancer.
Well you can resolve the monk's MADness, and your idea of wisdom to damage was a step in that direction. But the traditional small, agile martial artist still pays a heavy tax in feats and properties to function at all.
I mean, I've seen a Monk in play with well-rolled stats (to compensate for MADness) and well into the mid levels, even with a weapon-property adding AoMF, he never had a lot of trouble hitting while flurrying, just wasting turns getting there to flurry, and doing damage when he did (though we did fight a lot of things with DR).
The problems are not major at low level, and with good stats they are not huge at mid level either, you are correct. If you are on point buy, though, you have problems.
I'm not really trying to equalize their DPR with a Fighter's. That would be kinda unfair to the poor Fighter (who's not got alot else going for him, comparatively), just make them effective and fun. I think my changes do that.
Nor am I. The fighter is king of DPR, and should remain so. That does not mean the monk should be excluded from the field, though. I want the monk's hit & damage to be on a par with that which the other combat classes can achieve without their special tricks. Then their flurry of blows is actually worth something.
The reason I used an enhancement bonus and flat unarmed damage is to make the monk viable without massive strength and to alleviate the fact the AoMF is, well, crap.
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One of the biggest, though. The monk that wants to drop strength has to invest in multiple feats and an agile weapon just to have half a chance.
I'll just start out by noting that I'm defending my particular fix here, not the Monk class as it stands (which is in trouble, I freely admit).
And Weapon Finesse and an Agile Weapon (all that's really needed, IMO) don't seem an unreasonable investment to cut Str out of the equation almost completely.
I suppose there's Agile Maneuvers, too, if you really want to make all the maneuvers with Dex (though, as a more general House Rule I just merged that with Weapon Finesse, making it a non-issue in my games).
That's part of the way there. The big problem with it is the +5 cap and the price. They are not problems if the monk's unarmed strike gains an enhancement bonus on it's own; the price could be reduced and the fact that the amulet takes up a slot the monk needs doesn't matter because you can afford the 150% hike to get it enchanted with a bonus to natural armour anyway. The cap is the biggest problem, far and away.
True enough I suppose I should go make that explicit in my house rules document.
Which is all well and good, but many feats they might want either have clauses to allow monks to take them lower or are available as bonus feats for the monk.
It's as much for elegance as anything. Having the Monk be a full BAB class only not really is strange and ugly, game-design-wise.
No, they are +5 behind the paladin not smiting and the ranger not against his favoured enemy. The monk is +10 to hit behind the fighter once you factor in weapon training and Greater Weapon Focus.
looking at each combat class' abilities, leaving aside all their other abilities, they are combat classes, they need to fight. That means hitting the enemy, when all is said and done.
Paladin has smite evil, which is AWESOME. +Char bonus to hit, +level to damage.
Ranger has favoured enemy. Up to +10 to hit and damage a particular type of foe, and several lesser options, plus his fighting style and favoured terrain.
Fighter has weapon training, along with Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialisation, Greater Weapon Specialisation for +6 to hit and +8 damage against everything.
Monk has flurry of blows and unarmed strike. Flurry of blows is good, but the unarmed strike is second rate.
I agree to some degre. I'll repeat, I was defending my particular house rules (which admittedly, still leave the Monk 5, but only 5, behind the Fighter) here.
That's a very dubious statement. Fighter probably has greater strength, up to +8 to damage from his various feats and abilities, and uses weapons with way greater threat ranges (and they make a big difference).
So at 20th level, monk hits for 2d10 damage, + strength + AoMF.
At 20th level, fighter (assume short swords, not optimal but common) hits for 1d6+8, + strength + weapon properties + twice the threat range.
AoMF is capped at +5, so you either lose on hitting or properties that can damage, your choice.
So with equal properties, the monk is +10 to hit behind, and average damage is down by a few points. If he beefs up to +5 behind to hit, he's got slightly better average base damage, no properties and still half the threat range.Whichever way I look at it, the monk is badly behind.
Oh, I agree. Again, I'm referring specificaly to my fix. I think 1d12+Wis keeps up a lot better with Fighter stuff than 2d10. And lets a monk who wishes to go the weapon route gain some reasonable bonuses as well.
Crits are a problem though. Hmmm, maybe upping unarmed to a 19-20 on criticals for a monk wouldn't be a bad idea...
OK, lets run a comparison with the other combat classes in non-combat:
Paladin - equal on saves, same number of powers plus spells.
Ranger - behind on one save, some decent powers plus spells.
Fighter - behind on two saves, and all the feats you can eat.
Barbarian - behind on two saves, plenty of nice powers.
Paladins are probably the best comparison, and I'd argue that Evasion and Ki-stuff (especially if you go Qinggong Monk) make up for a lot of their advantages. Also, the beter skills.
I do like the idea of the move as a swift action. That is a potential solution, all right. Low damage isn't the monk's problem as long as you are not trying to beat the fighter, being able to hit is the problem - add on all the damage you like, if you do not connect, you do no damage.
True, I suppose. I just don't think being on par with, say, a non-Smiting Paladin (okay, maybe 2 less from the TWF stuff) is too far behind to be effective.
The problems are not major at low level, and with good stats they are not huge at mid level either, you are correct. If you are on point buy, though, you have problems.
That game got well into the mid levels, though we never got to the real high ones. And other problems definitely cropped up, but hitting per se wasn't one of them.
Nor am I. The fighter is king of DPR, and should remain so. That does not mean the monk should be excluded from the field, though. I want the monk's hit & damage to be on a par with that which the other combat classes can achieve without their special tricks. Then their flurry of blows is actually worth something.
I actualy agree entirely, I'm just going about it a somewhat different way.
The reason I used an enhancement bonus and flat unarmed damage is to make the monk viable without massive strength and to alleviate the fact the AoMF is, well, crap.
My changes, meanwhile, focus on making the Amulet better, increasing the opportunity to flurry, and letting Monks not need it for additional properties to make up for their damage to the same degree.
My changes, meanwhile, focus on making the Amulet better, increasing the opportunity to flurry, and letting Monks not need it for additional properties to make up for their damage to the same degree.
If you up the cap and drop the price it's getting there, definitely.
There are already style feats and archetypes that cater to that option. What would have been nice is if the style feats could have been selected as monk bonus feats, but I understand why they were not.
One problem the monk has, as I see it, is too much constraint in making an effective character: You have to judge exactly the right combinations of attributes, feats and class abilities very finely, and it leaves few real options.
I would be afraid that any style options such as you suggest could reduce this further, as the monk already gets a number of bonus feats these could be replaced by the feats require by the style chosen, and would strip the monk of what little flexibility the class still possesses if not handled correctly.
That would work, and I see what you mean now. How does this combine with the monk's not-quite-full BAB?
As an afterthought, I had some more ideas that required a bit more of an overhaul of the monk. Here is is.
I've cut the changed BAB completely and stuck with 3/4 BAB, and replaced the TWF concept with a flurry of blows that just allows you two attacks at each iterative attack modifier instead of one. I've then given the monk a weapon training equivelant that only applies to monk weapons, so your FoB at level 20 is +19/+19/+14/+14/+9/+9 - one less attack, but better accuracy, with the possibility of another from ki.
The monk also gains automatic enhancement of their unarmed strike from 3rd level, while sticking with my original concept of base damage for the unarmed strike being fixed. Hence at 20th level your unarmed damage is 1d6+9 instead of 2d10. This includes the bonus from the weapon training.
They also gain shattering strike - reducing the hardness of objects they attack with their unarmed strike. This and the enhancement bonus replace the original ki strike feature.
It's certainly one problem, but the biggest remains the lack of enhancement to hit available for the unarmed strike IMHO.
Made a few tweaks in my monk redesign.
Adjusted flurry of blows so you do not get the whole class feature in a one-level-dip and the bonus attack in a standard action is only available after 8th level.
Adjusted Wholeness of Body so that it can be used as a swift action, much like lay on hands for the paladin, and only costs 1 ki. As a standard action, spend 3 ki for 3xclass level hit points. The point of this is to reduce MAD, making Con less vital.
I was speculating on different fixes as part of the debate on my Flurry of Changes to Flurry of Blows thread, and I came up with this:
What would I like see as a Monk fix?
1. Return to the 3.5 style flurry: drop the whole two-weapon fighting thing, and give an additional attack at the highest BAB. Later on, get a 2nd attack at your highest BAB at 15th level. Remove the penalty. Still let a monk spend ki to gain another additional attack. This would replace a monk's normal iterative attacks.
Huh? You wouldn't get your follow on attacks at -5 (8th level) and -10 (15th level) when you make a flurry.
A 1st level monk, making a flurry of blows attack would be at +0/+0. A 4th level monk, when spending ki, would be at +3/+3/+3. At 8th level (spending ki) it would be +6/+6/+6. At 15th level (with a point of ki) +11/+11/+11/+11, while a 20th level monk would have +15/+15/+15/+15.
Yes, it does nothing for the attack bonus (but see #4 below), but it would give the monk something fairly unique: a less random series of blows that are all equally likely to hit (or miss, as the case may be). Put in there that flurry of blows does not stack with TWF or natural attacks, and we are done on that part. Not enough attacks? I am fine with adding the second attack at 8th level, and a third additional attack at 15th level. Are you?
2. At 4th level, add this line to ki pool: A monk can spend 1 ki point to gain an additional attack at his highest attack bonus when he charges, uses the Spring Attack Feat, or makes an attack as a standard action.
He can't flurry when moving, but he can get two attacks. That is worth spending a point of ki, maybe even worth 2 if you feel like it needs to be more expensive.
3. At 4th level, ki strike acts as if the monk's unarmed strikes are a +1 weapon. Not just for damage reduction, but for affecting incorporeal creatures. He doesn't actually gain an enhancement bonus, but it acts as magic. At 7th level, and every three levels gained thereafter, this 'effective bonus' increases by +1 to a maximum of +5 at 16th level. This lets a monk, with unarmed strikes, bypass cold iron and silver at 10th level, adamantine at 13th level (keep the ignore hardness as well), and alignments at 16th level.
4. At 5th level, add Weapons Training, ala the fighter. For unarmed strikes and special monk weapons only. Adds +1 (scaling to +4) on attacks and damage for attacks made when using flurry of blows or when spending a point of ki to gain an additional attack. That fixes somewhat the HUGE disparity between monks and other martial classes.
5. Last but not least, add an item that ONLY provides an enhancement bonus for unarmed strikes. None of this natural weapons BS, just unarmed strikes. I don't care if takes the amulet slot, or a ring slot, or what have you, but monks (and unarmed fighters) need a cheaper method of enhancing their unarmed attacks. And if you price it at 1.5x, 1.75x, or 2x that of a normal weapon, we would be happy. Especially if it can go up to +10.
6. Since flurry would no longer be two-weapon fighting, and can't stack with two-weapon fighting, return to being able to flurry with a single weapon.
7. Reduce wholeness of body to 1 ki and have it heal 2d8+Wis mod+class level as a standard action. OR spend 2 ki to heal as a swift action.
8. Would really like to see abundant step be a true move action that doesn't end your turn, and lets the monk take willing creatuers with him.
That's it. All it would take is an errata, and it would fix the majority of the monks problems. The monk wouldn't be the class that can get the most attacks anymore, but instead would be a class that can almost always manage to two or three or four attacks at his highest attack bonus, truely making the flurry of blows unique and something a monk would be proud of having.
That is my fix. We will probably never see it, but those six things would turn the monk from a joke into a flexible and capable skirmish/scout light warrior that finally fufills the promise of what potential the class showed in AD&D.
Just my thoughts on the subject.
Master Arminas
1. {snipped}
Yes, it does nothing for the attack bonus (but see #4 below), but it would give the monk something fairly unique: a less random series of blows that are all equally likely to hit (or miss, as the case may be). Put in there that flurry of blows does not stack with TWF or natural attacks, and we are done on that part. Not enough attacks? I am fine with adding the second attack at 8th level, and a third additional attack at 15th level. Are you?
It's different. I agree that flurry-of-blows needs tidying up - it's not so much broken as unwieldy. We want a lot of attacks, but not so many it's broken, and not so few that the monk is out-shone at multiple attacks.
2. At 4th level, add this line to ki pool: A monk can spend 1 ki point to gain an additional attack at his highest attack bonus when he charges, uses the Spring Attack Feat, or makes an attack as a standard action.
He can't flurry when moving, but he can get two attacks. That is worth spending a point of ki, maybe even worth 2 if you feel like it needs to be more expensive.
I like this one.
3. At 4th level, ki strike acts as if the monk's unarmed strikes are a +1 weapon. Not just for damage reduction, but for affecting incorporeal creatures. He doesn't actually gain an enhancement bonus, but it acts as magic. At 7th level, and every three levels gained thereafter, this 'effective bonus' increases by +1 to a maximum of +5 at 16th level. This lets a monk, with unarmed strikes, bypass cold iron and silver at 10th level, adamantine at 13th level (keep the ignore hardness as well), and alignments at 16th level.
I like this, but why NOT make it an enhancement bonus to hit? That way the monk doesn't need so many item enhancements, and everyone can live with the AoMF for properties only.
4. At 5th level, add Weapons Training, ala the fighter. For unarmed strikes and special monk weapons only. Adds +1 (scaling to +4) on attacks and damage for attacks made when using flurry of blows or when spending a point of ki to gain an additional attack. That fixes somewhat the HUGE disparity between monks and other martial classes.
I was lukewarm about weapon training initially, for this reason: 2d10 damage. Unarmed damage is fine as it is. If this adds to it, it's increasing something that does not need it. If it isn't adding to unarmed attack and damage, we still have flurry of misses.
5. Last but not least, add an item that ONLY provides an enhancement bonus for unarmed strikes. None of this natural weapons BS, just unarmed strikes. I don't care if takes the amulet slot, or a ring slot, or what have you, but monks (and unarmed fighters) need a cheaper method of enhancing their unarmed attacks. And if you price it at 1.5x, 1.75x, or 2x that of a normal weapon, we would be happy. Especially if it can go up to +10.
If we add this, there's no need for the virtual enhancement bonus. If we make the virtual enhancement bonus actual, we don't need this.
6. Since flurry would no longer be two-weapon fighting, and can't stack with two-weapon fighting, return to being able to flurry with a single weapon.
Agreed.
7. Reduce wholeness of body to 1 ki and have it heal 2d8+Wis mod+class level as a standard action. OR spend 2 ki to heal as a swift action.
There are two problems with wholeness of body: it's slow, and it costs too much. I would make it a swift action anyway, and heal more for a standard action at higher ki cost.
8. Would really like to see abundant step be a true move action that doesn't end your turn, and lets the monk take willing creatuers with him.
I would say, make it a true move action, let the monk take others with a feat.
Not enough attacks? I am fine with adding the second attack at 8th level, and a third additional attack at 15th level. Are you?
Master Arminas,
no, actually, I'm not fine with the reduction in attacks :-)
I like to have many of them to use some for tripping and disarming and still have some left for damaging
Furthermore item 1 not only reduces the number of attacks it also reduces the attack bonus and I don't think that number 4 (weapons training) will fix it:
At level 8 your suggestion would result in +6/+6/+6 (if spending ki) adding +1 for weapon training on top of that.
The current core monk would flurry with +6/+6/+6/+1/+1 (if spending ki). So for getting +1 to hit I would have to give up two attacks?
At level 15 you would have +11/+11/+11/+11 (if spending ki) with an additional +2 for weapon training.
The current core monk would flurry with +13/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3 (if spending ki), so he has three attacks which are as good as your monk's (including the weapon training!) and instead of having another attack at +13 he would have four at +8/+8/+3/+3. I'm afraid that I'd prefer the latter.
The rest is fine (although spending 2 ki points for an additional standard attack seems a bit high for me).
Hmmm. Looking at how my monk design (above) works with that, it would be:
8th level: +6/+1 with standard action, or full attack action: +6/+6/+1/+1 with an extra attack from ki at +6. Pretty much the same as current, but with +2 enhancement bonus from ki strike and +1 from weapon training. That gives us +9/+9/+9/+4/+4 after adjustments but before str/dex mods, hitting for 1d6+3+str unarmed.
At 15th level: +11/+11/+11/+6/+6/+1/+1 with +4 enhancement bonus and +3 weapon training bonus for +18/+18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8 before str/dex, so he's hitting faster and more accurately than either other version of the monk, damage being 1d6+7+str. On the other hand his number of attacks has peaked, he cannot get more.
So far, I liked it Dabbler.
The flurry is good, I like the Monk weapon training. I'm conflicted by the not increasing feature of the unarmed strikes though, but I understand why you did it that way.
Enhanced strike is just about perfect. Weapon Training goes a long ways towards restoring unarmed strikes, so it is all good. LOL
I like the change to Wholeness of Body. Swift for level, standard for 3x level. Good.
Shattering Strike is excellent. Well done!
I still wish a monk could take a willing person (up to his load) with him on Abundant Step, but being a true move action makes it so much better.
Overall, it is a very good revision. Keep up the good work!
MA
Thank you MA! I was conflicted with the unarmed damage. I mean, who doesn't want 2d10 base damage? But I think it was holding the monk back from justifying full enhancement on the unarmed strike and the weapon training class feature, as damage already scaled.
2d10 average = 11 damage with half enhancement available.
1d6+9 average = 12.5 damage including half enhancement with the other half still available.
Just feels more logical to me to do things this way, and it matches with what the fighter can do.
The main advantage with this monk, though, is you are not as MAD as before - strength is downplayed by monk weapon training and Maneuver Master, Con is played down by the wholeness of body, and those help out a lot.
True. I'll give it trial run, this weekend. Take her out for spin and all. (TOP GEAR: Pathfinder edition). LOL
Master Arminas
Yes, Shattering Strike is very nice! Wholeness of body as well.
With respect to unarmed damage: I prefer 2d10 damage to 1d6+9. The latter is boring IMHO.
The flurry is too good I think:
+18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8 at 15th level (without ki) compared to the fighters +18/+13/+8 (including weapon training!) makes the latter look bad. The monk has double the number of attacks with no penalty to hit. The fighter's only advantage is that he can use a two handed weapon.
I would drop the monk's weapon training, make the ki strike a to hit bonus only and keep the old damage dice. If that means that monk weapons deal less damage than the monk's unarmed strike, that's ok with me: weapons might still be needed to overcome a specific DR and I think it is ok if there are drawbacks for different options. And I can easily justify the higher unarmed damage by the monk being able to channel his ki through his hands but not through weapons (furthermore there are ki focus weapons allowing just that). Last not least a Sai for example still has a nice bonus to disarm and sunder maneuvers.
The "half flurry" essentially is a normal full attack exercised as a standard action. That's a little bit much as well, isn't it? Maybe it should require a ki point?
Yes, Shattering Strike is very nice! Wholeness of body as well.
With respect to unarmed damage: I prefer 2d10 damage to 1d6+9. The latter is boring IMHO.
Boring yes. But a lot easier to factor around. It's the fighter's static bonuses that carry him way past the monk in damage output.
The flurry is too good I think:
+18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8 at 15th level (without ki) compared to the fighters +18/+13/+8 (including weapon training!) makes the latter look bad.
Only if you assume the fighter has no feats and is using a normal weapon. Now factor in the fighter's Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus and his +5 weapon enhancement bonus (remember, our monk has his enhancement built in and factored in so he won't get any extra). Suddenly that's +25/+20/+15. Now assume he's a TWFer or fighting sword & board and you are looking at +23/+23/+18/+18/+13/+13.
All of this is without ability modifiers being added, where the fighter also will tend to come out ahead.
Even if the monk takes Weapon Focus the fighter comes out a good +4 ahead of the monk across the board with as many attacks - that flurry not too good at all. In fact, it's just where we want it: good enough to be in the same playing field as the fighter, not so good it outshines him.
Damage-wise, the monk is hitting for 1d6+7+effects, while the fighter with +5 enhanced short swords is hitting for 1d6+12+effects and with double the threat range.
The "half flurry" essentially is a normal full attack exercised as a standard action. That's a little bit much as well, isn't it? Maybe it should require a ki point?
A normal full attack at 3/4 BAB, remember.
I did wonder about it costing ki, and it could be easily factored in. Otherwise the idea is that the monk is doing, well, what he should be doing: being a mobile warrior.
With respect to unarmed damage: I prefer 2d10 damage to 1d6+9. The latter is boring IMHO.Boring yes. But a lot easier to factor around. It's the fighter's static bonuses that carry him way past the monk in damage output.
As long as the average damage is the same, multiple dice are equivalent to having a static bonus. Actually for overcoming DR they are even slightly better.
And I think that 2d10 is as easy to factor around as 1d6+9 if not easier.The flurry is too good I think:
+18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8 at 15th level (without ki) compared to the fighters +18/+13/+8 (including weapon training!) makes the latter look bad.Only if you assume the fighter has no feats and is using a normal weapon. Now factor in the fighter's Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus and his +5 weapon enhancement bonus (remember, our monk has his enhancement built in and factored in so he won't get any extra). Suddenly that's +25/+20/+15. Now assume he's a TWFer or fighting sword & board and you are looking at +23/+23/+18/+18/+13/+13.
All of this is without ability modifiers being added, where the fighter also will tend to come out ahead.
Even if the monk takes Weapon Focus the fighter comes out a good +4 ahead of the monk across the board with as many attacks - that flurry not too good at all. In fact, it's just where we want it: good enough to be in the same playing field as the fighter, not so good it outshines him.
Damage-wise, the monk is hitting for 1d6+7+effects, while the fighter with +5 enhanced short swords is hitting for 1d6+12+effects and with double the threat range.
So the fighter has to have two +5 swords to come out +4 ahead of the monk.
I don't expect +5 swords to be standard issue at 15th level and the same problem exists at your level 8 example.And the fighter had to take one more feat for it (Greater Weapon Focus).
Similar for damage: the fighter needs two +5 swords to outdamage the monk by exactly those +5. Ok, he has double the threat range. That increases his damage by less than 5% on average unless he invests in more feats or magic. And to be fair the monk has stunning fist.
In summary a TWF fighter without magic weapons hits worse than a monk (or the same if using a masterwork weapon) while having invested in one more feat and deals the exact same damage.
Sorry, I think that's too much on the monk's part.
The flurry is too good I think:
+18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8 at 15th level (without ki) compared to the fighters +18/+13/+8 (including weapon training!) makes the latter look bad.
The "half flurry" essentially is a normal full attack exercised as a standard action. That's a little bit much as well, isn't it? Maybe it should require a ki point?
A normal full attack at 3/4 BAB, remember.
I did wonder about it costing ki, and it could be easily factored in. Otherwise the idea is that the monk is doing, well, what he should be doing: being a mobile warrior.
3/4 BAB, yes. But then there are the monk's enhancement bonuses and weapon training which have just the purpose of transforming the 3/4 BAB into full BAB +more.
Effectively it is a full BAB attack.
With respect to unarmed damage: I prefer 2d10 damage to 1d6+9. The latter is boring IMHO.Boring yes. But a lot easier to factor around. It's the fighter's static bonuses that carry him way past the monk in damage output.As long as the average damage is the same, multiple dice are equivalent to having a static bonus. Actually for overcoming DR they are even slightly better.
And I think that 2d10 is as easy to factor around as 1d6+9 if not easier.
It is, except that:
1) Doing things this way we are also giving something to the monk that wants to use weapons. Monk weapons are a crappy lot for the most part, +4 to hit and damage makes them at least a bit less substandard, and making the 'armed monk' viable. We cannot keep that feature AND keep the increasing unarmed damage.
2) We can give the unarmed strike full enhancement with a clean conscience. It's not been said by the devs, but I would guess that one reason the unarmed strike is held back from full enhancement is the increasing damage it gets in any event.
In short, getting rid of increasing dice for unarmed damage allows us to offer the monk many more useful toys to play with and greater flexibility, which is what people seem to want.
The flurry is too good I think:
+18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8 at 15th level (without ki) compared to the fighters +18/+13/+8 (including weapon training!) makes the latter look bad.Only if you assume the fighter has no feats and is using a normal weapon. Now factor in the fighter's Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus and his +5 weapon enhancement bonus (remember, our monk has his enhancement built in and factored in so he won't get any extra). Suddenly that's +25/+20/+15. Now assume he's a TWFer or fighting sword & board and you are looking at +23/+23/+18/+18/+13/+13.
All of this is without ability modifiers being added, where the fighter also will tend to come out ahead.
Even if the monk takes Weapon Focus the fighter comes out a good +4 ahead of the monk across the board with as many attacks - that flurry not too good at all. In fact, it's just where we want it: good enough to be in the same playing field as the fighter, not so good it outshines him.
Damage-wise, the monk is hitting for 1d6+7+effects, while the fighter with +5 enhanced short swords is hitting for 1d6+12+effects and with double the threat range.
So the fighter has to have two +5 swords to come out +4 ahead of the monk.
I don't expect +5 swords to be standard issue at 15th level and the same problem exists at your level 8 example.
And the fighter had to take one more feat for it (Greater Weapon Focus).
Check out your WBL chart: at 15th level 240,000gp worth of gear is what a character should have. A +5 weapon is 50,000gp, so assuming a TWF fighter is spending around half his wealth on his weapons he has money to spare - in fact he can afford two +6-equivelant weapons at a stretch and still have sufficient left to cover his other bases. The fighter also has more feats to spare to invest in his attack and damage, and that is just what he should be doing because that is what a fighter does.
The monk, on the other hand, is going to be buying attribute enhancers with his spare cash in order to make up for his MADness.
I don't like the Christmas Tree effect either, but it has to be accounted for. If you don't, you are basically trying to compare a monk to a gimped fighter, and that's not a valid comparison.
Effectively it is a full BAB attack.
It's close to it, but it misses some features - two extra iterative attacks is as good as it gets without flurry-of-blows, while one level up the fighter gets four. Compare it to the mobile fighter archetype who gets effectively the same attacks on a standard action (Full BAB + weapon training + enhanced weapons, then losing first attack) and the only difference is that the monk gets an extra attack a level earlier than the mobile fighter.
Also, it's not full BAB for the purposes of feats like Power Attack and Vital Strike. It's close enough that it puts the monk on a par with the other full BAB classes except for the fighter when you take away their special features.
Monk = 3/4 BAB + Weapon Training + inherent enhancement
Fighter = Full BAB + Weapon Training + purchased enhancement
At level 20, the fighter will always be +5 ahead of the monk. If he TWFs he'll be only +4 ahead of the monk but with an extra attack. In damage it's the same story.
Check out your WBL chart: at 15th level 240,000gp worth of gear is what a character should have. A +5 weapon is 50,000gp [...]
I don't like the Christmas Tree effect either, but it has to be accounted for. If you don't, you are basically trying to compare a monk to a gimped fighter, and that's not a valid comparison.
I agree that's not valid, but comparing a fighter to a gimped monk is neither, so let's see what the monk might buy for that 100.000 the fighter invests in his two swords:
EDIT: I had overlooked that AoMF does not stack with the monk's enhanced strike class feature, so I did replace the AoMF with a Maunal.
Belt of giant strength +6 (36.000)
Manual of Gainful Exercise +2 (55.000)
Monk's robe (13.000)
As that is 4000 gp more than the fighter had to spend, let's give the fighter a belt of giant strength +2 for that.
So the monk gets +4/+8 and AC+2 for his items where the fighter gets +6/+6.
Seems to me like they are still quite evenly matched (remember, the monk had +1 to hit over fighter without magic and masterwork). Now the fighter has +1 to hit over the monk (and better threat range) but is +2 behind on damage, and did need one more feat.
It is, except that:
1) Doing things this way we are also giving something to the monk that wants to use weapons. Monk weapons are a crappy lot for the most part, +4 to hit and damage makes them at least a bit less substandard, and making the 'armed monk' viable. We cannot keep that feature AND keep the increasing unarmed damage.
2) We can give the unarmed strike full enhancement with a clean conscience. It's not been said by the devs, but I would guess that one reason the unarmed strike is held back from full enhancement is the increasing damage it gets in any event.
In short, getting rid of increasing dice for unarmed damage allows us to offer the monk many more useful toys to play with and greater flexibility, which is what people seem to want.
I'm fine with monk weapons being substandard because I consider his most important and most iconic weapon the unarmed strike (and maneuvers). And it's ok to leave the heavy weapons to the fighter classes.
For weapon-oriented monks there already is the archetype Weapon Adept. He gets perfect strike and weapon specialization.
Why does unarmed strike need full enhancement? A to-hit enhancement is sufficient, so where is the point in having a full one (if he already has the damage part)?
Well I think the monk isn't going to buy a Belt of Giant strength, he needs all three physical stats far more than the fighter. It's a belt of power or a belt of physical perfection for him. You could assume that comes from the rest of his cash, and the +6 item is a Headband of Inspired Wisdom which the monk needs and the fighter doesn't. With the monk's robe that's +4 to AC, but then the monk is not permitted armour and plate armour is +9 to AC.
The Amulet of mighty fists +3 is a wasted item as such - the enhancement bonus to hit and damage will not stack with the monk's natural enhancement bonus. Using it to get weapon properties makes much more sense, and that's perfectly acceptable. This gives the monk a +7 equivelant weapon, which is strong but not out of the ball park at this level.
The monk is probably going to have better stat enhancers than the fighter because of his 'free' enhancement, but then he needs them: I've reduced MAD dependency, but I haven't removed it completely. He needs all his physical stats enhancing, and he needs Wisdom on top.
We can't really compare the two without knowing what else they spent their cash on. The best way to compare is to stat out a complete monk and a complete fighter, if you want to go that far - including their starting stats, because +6 strength isn't a huge advantage if the monk started 6pts behind the fighter, which is entirely possible.
However, I do not think it unreasonable to assume that the fighter will invest in his weapons first and foremost when running the basic comparison. All I've done is reduce unarmed base damage in return for built-in enhancement. This monk is not particularly better off than a standard monk with an added bonus to hit, which is what a lot of people agree that he needs just to come up level with the other full BAB classes, let alone equal the fighter.
I'm fine with monk weapons being substandard because I consider his most important and most iconic weapon the unarmed strike (and maneuvers). And it's ok to leave the heavy weapons to the fighter classes.
I agree with the heavy weapons, most of the monk's are light anyway. On the other hand, weapons can have properties and every monk is going to have at least one or two backups for when he or she is facing DR/slashing or DR/piercing. That's when they start needing the weapon training feature.
Weapon training also allows us to get rid of the full-BAB-but-not-full-BAB confusion. The monk is now 3/4 BAB, no debate required. Weapon training jacks it up to being able to hit almost as accurately as full BAB, which is where we want the monk to be to actually do something to their foes.
For weapon-oriented monks there already is the archetype Weapon Adept. He gets perfect strike and weapon specialization.
Which is all fine and dandy. I am looking at increasing the versatility of the core monk, not at archetypes. The core is where the problem lies, after all.
Why does unarmed strike need full enhancement? A to-hit enhancement is sufficient, so where is the point in having a full one (if he already has the damage part)?
That's another way of doing things I agree. On the flip side, why should we add another half-one-thing-half-another fix to the system? If we can get the same result by sticking with the rules everyone understands, why introduce new ones?
I'm not just looking at making the monk effective, I'm looking at making it easier to use and understand, and hence to play. Currently you need a degree in system mastery to make the monk effective, and I want to change that.