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Creating magical item for the party + small fee on the work = players uprorar?


Advice

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dragonfire8974 wrote:


BTW, i lol'd a little when you wrote "I just flagged you for the truth"

it depends what kind of game you're having. if it is a constant heartpounding combat game, the fighters and cleric are going to wind up ahead. if its a more RP heavy, then its the person with charisma and social skills. if its a normal game, there is a good chance that there would be a TPK because the wizard won't memorize battlefield control spells because someone's going to say that's not contributing, they're going to get into an argument, someone will get dominated... then there will be a good bloodbath

talk about absurdist arguments. fees cause TPK! no fee crafting it will kill off your group!

btw, i'm just kidding, just wanted to make a little fun of myself


dragonfire8974 wrote:
our group pools for consumables like teleports and does free crafting because we're constantly facing 3 or 4 APL +3 monsters. nothing unites a party like the constant threat of death. we have LN, NG, CN bordering on CE, CN, and another LN. because we have all been targeted, we have to stick together or die apart. its a pretty effective party unity tool

So, if I'm reading this right there is still money that flows to the individuals that the individual can do with as they choose right? Your pooling only consists of consumables? That would seem like an acceptable way to play for the group of neutrals you have.

What I was mentioning is that if all wealth is considered party wealth, and each item created or bought comes from that pool and belongs to the party not the individual. I could really only see that working (in-game) for a good aligned group.


Mistwalker wrote:
dragonfire8974 wrote:

no more than 1/2 dozen people have said that, and when i said it, it was in jest then to illustrate to the whole, 'its what my character would do' thing cuts both ways.

I really don't mean to be a dick even though this kind of sounds prickish, but i'm not that kind of gamer who won't have fun if you don't play it my way. i'll enjoy a game because i like to game

The fee crafters had asked a few times that if the crafter took the feat and only crafted for themselve, would they object. The half dozen or so free crafters that responded said that they would, that they would ask drop the crafter PC, and those are the only ones that I recall addressing the question at all. So, to me, that means that in general, the free crafters will drop the crafter if they do not craft at cost. I have no problem accepting that in your case it was in jest, but that still leaves the others.

I didn't take you to be a "dick" or "prick". Engaged and passionate about the subject, yes.

The biggest frustration that I have had in this thread is/was the derogatory terms towards the fee crafting crowd. When this was brought up pages ago, most of you moderated your terms, which was appreciated.

nah man, i understand. also i wouldn't mind if a crafter just crafted for himself. to me, that's what the FAQ ruling says...


Selgard wrote:

Yep.. some what, 200 posts later, and the ball still hasn't been moved from the 50 yard line, by either side.

The fact guys is that we're all arguing our own opinions as though we can and should inflict them on our groups.

Its all just "how you think is the most fun way to play. Neither is right, neither is wrong.

If you think charging X% is appropriate talk to your group, get their input, act accordingly.

If you think being being charged, or charging x% is absurd, talk to your group, get their input, act accordingly.

I'm not really sure why the discussion is still going on unless its really just because everyone enjoys repeating their exact same reasonings over and over again just to hit 2000 posts.

"stealing from the party makes you a jerk"
"no it doesn't it just lets me maintain wbl"
"yeah but taking money from your party makes you a jerk, if you do it so can everyone else"
"yeah but the crafter's contribution is worth more than everyone else's so he deserves more money"
"but stealing from the party makes you a jerk"

we're just rolling through the convo over and over and over again like a broken record.

Truth:
WBL is something that the DM *should* be handling, using as a method to help make sure the party power is adequate for the CR of beasties he's throwing at them. Its not something the PC's *should* be having to even mess with.

Truth:
If the group thinks that the crafter charging for crafting shouldn't be allowed- then it isn't allowed. End of story.

Truth:
If the group thinks that the crafter charging for crafting is allowed then its allowed. End of story.

Truth:
No one person inside the group has the right to dictate terms to the group. The dictator is the person who gets "thrown out" regardless of which side of the coin they are on.

If me or AD came to a "pro fee" crowd we could either accept it and go with it, craft things ourselves, pay full price, or go home.
Harrassing and threatening the rest of the group into doing things our way would be...

but if we stop arguing we'll never get to 2000 posts


Dr Grecko wrote:
dragonfire8974 wrote:
our group pools for consumables like teleports and does free crafting because we're constantly facing 3 or 4 APL +3 monsters. nothing unites a party like the constant threat of death. we have LN, NG, CN bordering on CE, CN, and another LN. because we have all been targeted, we have to stick together or die apart. its a pretty effective party unity tool

So, if I'm reading this right there is still money that flows to the individuals that the individual can do with as they choose right? Your pooling only consists of consumables? That would seem like an acceptable way to play for the group of neutrals you have.

What I was mentioning is that if all wealth is considered party wealth, and each item created or bought comes from that pool and belongs to the party not the individual. I could really only see that working (in-game) for a good aligned group.

ahh right, my mistake


I'll admit that charging a fee never really occurred to me until I read this thread; I wouldn't consider it to be essential to playing a crafter character. I do believe, however, that if I were to play with one that wanted to charge a minor fee, they could have grounds to do so as long as the fee was reasonable and it was clear they weren't abusing it.


dragonfire8974 wrote:

BTW, i lol'd a little when you wrote "I just flagged you for the truth"

it depends what kind of game you're having. if it is a constant heartpounding combat game, the fighters and cleric are going to wind up ahead. if its a more RP heavy, then its the person with charisma and social skills. if its a normal game, there is a good chance that there would be a TPK because the wizard won't memorize battlefield control spells because someone's going to say that's not contributing, they're going to get into an argument, someone will get dominated... then there will be a good bloodbath

:) Thanks! I do my best to lighten the mood :)

.
And, yes it depends on the type of campaign. Since that is a case by case basis, I just made my assumption based off a campaign of equal contribution.


dragonfire8974 wrote:
but if we stop arguing we'll never get to 2000 posts

Truth!


Selgard wrote:
Its all just "how you think is the most fun way to play. Neither is right, neither is wrong.

You should have realized by now, that I am always right and everyone else is always wrong! Except my wife, whom is even more right ;)


Did nobody guess the movie reference in post 1769?


sunshadow21 wrote:
I'll admit that charging a fee never really occurred to me until I read this thread; I wouldn't consider it to be essential to playing a crafter character. I do believe, however, that if I were to play with one that wanted to charge a minor fee, they could have grounds to do so as long as the fee was reasonable and it was clear they weren't abusing it.

Your assesment seems to be a fair and accurate one. What we seem to be arguing over is what constitutes abusing a fee? What % should a crafter charge for his services?


Dr Grecko wrote:
sunshadow21 wrote:
I'll admit that charging a fee never really occurred to me until I read this thread; I wouldn't consider it to be essential to playing a crafter character. I do believe, however, that if I were to play with one that wanted to charge a minor fee, they could have grounds to do so as long as the fee was reasonable and it was clear they weren't abusing it.
Your assesment seems to be a fair and accurate one. What we seem to be arguing over is what constitutes abusing a fee? What % should a crafter charge for his services?

I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, 5% to 10% wouldn't even make me blink unless the abuse was blatantly obvious, in which case the fee is probably the least of the problems being created. I could even see up to 20% in the right circumstances, such as tithing, contributing to the group fund, or casting a lot of spells that benefit the party that require expensive spell components. Anything over 20% would be overkill, even if it fit rp wise, and too much of a headache to be worth it.


1812 posts? really?


sunshadow21 wrote:
I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, 5% to 10% wouldn't even make me blink unless the abuse was blatantly obvious, in which case the fee is probably the least of the problems being created. I could even see up to 20% in the right circumstances, such as tithing, contributing to the group fund, or casting a lot of spells that benefit the party that require expensive spell components. Anything over 20% would be overkill, even if it fit rp wise, and too much of a headache to be worth it.

Why exactly is anything over 20% overkill? Why would 20% be the tipping point for the magic "he's being a jerk" rule? And if the right circumstances includes tithing, why couldn't charging market price be an acceptable price? If the target WBL is to be maintained, the players should pay full price, and the excess funds need to just magically disapear. So a tithing would be an effective way to maintain WBL targets.


Dr Grecko wrote:
sunshadow21 wrote:
I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, 5% to 10% wouldn't even make me blink unless the abuse was blatantly obvious, in which case the fee is probably the least of the problems being created. I could even see up to 20% in the right circumstances, such as tithing, contributing to the group fund, or casting a lot of spells that benefit the party that require expensive spell components. Anything over 20% would be overkill, even if it fit rp wise, and too much of a headache to be worth it.
Why exactly is anything over 20% overkill? Why would 20% be the tipping point for the magic "he's being a jerk" rule? And if the right circumstances includes tithing, why couldn't charging market price be an acceptable price? If the target WBL is to be maintained, the players should pay full price, and the excess funds need to just magically disapear. So a tithing would be an effective way to maintain WBL targets.

Charging full price to me would be simpler than a fee greater than 20%. At 20%, the fee starts to get notable enough to merit attention and discussion, and in most groups, it will be more trouble than it's worth to hash out the appropriate percentage between that point and paying full cost. Some groups could have the discussion without it devolving into a never ending argument or debate, but most groups could not. Basically, at that point, its easier to reduce the fee to a less contentious number or simply charge full price so that the game doesn't get bogged down in a perpetual discussion/debate/argument.


Dr Grecko wrote:
sunshadow21 wrote:
I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, 5% to 10% wouldn't even make me blink unless the abuse was blatantly obvious, in which case the fee is probably the least of the problems being created. I could even see up to 20% in the right circumstances, such as tithing, contributing to the group fund, or casting a lot of spells that benefit the party that require expensive spell components. Anything over 20% would be overkill, even if it fit rp wise, and too much of a headache to be worth it.
Why exactly is anything over 20% overkill? Why would 20% be the tipping point for the magic "he's being a jerk" rule? And if the right circumstances includes tithing, why couldn't charging market price be an acceptable price? If the target WBL is to be maintained, the players should pay full price, and the excess funds need to just magically disapear. So a tithing would be an effective way to maintain WBL targets.

Didn't the math show that 20% was approx. the tipping point to maintain proper WBL if pocketed? Market Value would be appropriate if all of the surplus were to disappear and none was pocketed imo not nice persay but another easy way for WBL maintenance for the DM.

For the Fee crafters up a few posts while I respect the opinion that WBL should be maintained by the DM I respectfully disagree that he can do that while you actively break the system under him. I'd like to ask if the DM said the fee was a mandatory one in order to manage WBL would that still bug you?


gnomersy wrote:
Dr Grecko wrote:
sunshadow21 wrote:
I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, 5% to 10% wouldn't even make me blink unless the abuse was blatantly obvious, in which case the fee is probably the least of the problems being created. I could even see up to 20% in the right circumstances, such as tithing, contributing to the group fund, or casting a lot of spells that benefit the party that require expensive spell components. Anything over 20% would be overkill, even if it fit rp wise, and too much of a headache to be worth it.
Why exactly is anything over 20% overkill? Why would 20% be the tipping point for the magic "he's being a jerk" rule? And if the right circumstances includes tithing, why couldn't charging market price be an acceptable price? If the target WBL is to be maintained, the players should pay full price, and the excess funds need to just magically disapear. So a tithing would be an effective way to maintain WBL targets.

Didn't the math show that 20% was approx. the tipping point to maintain proper WBL if pocketed? Market Value would be appropriate if all of the surplus were to disappear and none was pocketed imo not nice persay but another easy way for WBL maintenance for the DM.

For the Fee crafters up a few posts while I respect the opinion that WBL should be maintained by the DM I respectfully disagree that he can do that while you actively break the system under him. I'd like to ask if the DM said the fee was a mandatory one in order to manage WBL would that still bug you?

The math was for a 4 person party at 62k gold or something like that. I think we need to find a formula that can break it down to a simple format such as. If there are X number of people, crafter will need to charge a percentage of N to keep the WBL balance.

.
If there are any mathy types out there, want to give it a shot. As my friend once said: "What do I look like to you? I aint no math box."


sunshadow21 wrote:
Charging full price to me would be simpler than a fee greater than 20%. At 20%, the fee starts to get notable enough to merit attention and discussion, and in most groups, it will be more trouble than it's worth to hash out the appropriate percentage between that point and paying full cost. Some groups could have the discussion without it devolving into a never ending argument or debate, but most groups could not. Basically, at that point, its easier to reduce the fee to a less contentious number or simply charge full price so that the game doesn't get bogged down in a perpetual discussion/debate/argument.

I tend to agree with you that anything above 20% is contentious. The point I'm trying to make in asking about percentages is that the selection of a percentage to charge the party is an arbitrary one. Whether we charge 5% or 10%. I'm not doing it to because I want to maintain a proper WBL. Sure, it helps with that. I do it mostly because it fits my char concept.


Dr Grecko wrote:
sunshadow21 wrote:
Charging full price to me would be simpler than a fee greater than 20%. At 20%, the fee starts to get notable enough to merit attention and discussion, and in most groups, it will be more trouble than it's worth to hash out the appropriate percentage between that point and paying full cost. Some groups could have the discussion without it devolving into a never ending argument or debate, but most groups could not. Basically, at that point, its easier to reduce the fee to a less contentious number or simply charge full price so that the game doesn't get bogged down in a perpetual discussion/debate/argument.
I tend to agree with you that anything above 20% is contentious. The point I'm trying to make in asking about percentages is that the selection of a percentage to charge the party is an arbitrary one. Whether we charge 5% or 10%. I'm not doing it to because I want to maintain a proper WBL. Sure, it helps with that. I do it mostly because it fits my char concept.

I agree that it's arbitrary to a point, but factors like WBL and how much the party will tolerate also play important roles in determining the final number.


GeraintElberion wrote:
Um... doesn't everyone just pool party wealth and then discuss how to spend it well?

My games almost never do this, because our players are much less regular. Also, we tend to let CN and E alignments play as well, in which case a relatively even loot divvy may be important for your own character's survival, if one of the other PCs gets too froggy.

We divvy all loot into equally valued lots, draw straws, and pick one lot each. Then if someone else has something you want, you buy it from him, or you barter/trade for it.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Selgard wrote:
Yep.. some what, 200 posts later, and the ball still hasn't been moved from the 50 yard line, by either side.

And you still haven't answered my questions from back before you took your 200 post break.

Quote:

Truth:

If the group thinks that the crafter charging for crafting shouldn't be allowed- then it isn't allowed. End of story.

Noooooo. Stop lying.

Truth:
If the group thinks that the crafter charging for crafting shouldn't be allowed, and the crafter does, then the group loses its crafter and ends up paying 100% for everything. It kills the golden goose. End of story.

Quote:

Truth:

No one person inside the group has the right to dictate terms to the group. The dictator is the person who gets "thrown out" regardless of which side of the coin they are on

Noooooo. Stop lying.

Truth:
If the crafter wants to charge a fee, and someone doesn't like it, then they can always simply not ask/force the crafter to craft anything for them, and it's no different than if the crafter never took the feats in the first place.

The crafters who charge a fee are not the ones doing the "group-wrecking." You are.

Quote:
If Loaba or any of the others on the "pro fee" crowd came to Mine or Ad's game, you'd be expected to either accept it, craft for yourself, pay full price, or go home.

Never ever ever has any pro-fee crafter demanded that someone else buy stuff from them, ever in this thread, ever, in almost two thousand posts. On the other hand, the anti-fee crowd has repeatedly demanded that the crafter craft for them, for free, at least once a page. "Everybody does their own crafting" is completely fine as far as the pro-fee crafters are concerned.

Are you going to ignore this post too, Selgard?

Grand Lodge

This has become my "amusing read while bored at work" thread.

I really do not get it. Those who agree with the "You took craft X so make me X and I will be drinking a beer and don't you dare charge me a dime more than half of what I would have to pay had you not learned something you did when I was around." are never going to be in agreement with the "You want me to spend my Saturday working on your computer, sorry digressed... making you a toy.. for free?" Crowd.

Fee-Haters- Yes, because you can make it you should.
Pro-Fee- Hey you, I bought a new tire with the money we earned together last week. Now come over here and change it because you can. What? You want me to give you gas money? Piss off you thief.

That's all there is to it.

I am in a goofy mood and decided to fan the flames a little but the point is the same. I hope none of you fee-haters are lawyers, doctors, dentists etc because your friends are going to expect you to give them fillings and checkups at cost, because you can. It helps your "group" of friends.


Ravenbow, your disingenuous attempt to "explain" the anti-profiteer argument is so laughably srawman that it's hardly worth pointing out. But I will since there are no doubt some readers who will think that you are actually presenting the anti-profiteering side honestly and sincerely.

Nowhere in any post I have ever made have I insisted that ANY character with the crafting feat HAS to make ANYTHING for another party member. And your repeated insistence that the anti-profiteering argument boils down to enslaving the crafter is tiresome.

beej67 has also made this claim.

What we HAVE said is that if you make something, that's great. If you want to make an item available to another party member, that's great too. But if you want us to pay you a fee for doing so, then don't be surprised when we start charging you for our own special skills that you benefit from.

That's what we are saying.

The inability to understand that argument is no excuse for bald-facedly misrepresenting it so that your argument can look better in comparison.


Adamantine Dragon wrote:
... a bunch of stuff

...that can be summed up as [all we're saying is that we want to meta-game our way into a 50% discount. And we're not above blackmail, either.]


Dr Grecko wrote:
What I was mentioning is that if all wealth is considered party wealth, and each item created or bought comes from that pool and belongs to the party not the individual. I could really only see that working (in-game) for a good aligned group.

Communism - it's goood. ;D


stringburka wrote:
Dr Grecko wrote:
What I was mentioning is that if all wealth is considered party wealth, and each item created or bought comes from that pool and belongs to the party not the individual. I could really only see that working (in-game) for a good aligned group.
Communism - it's goood. ;D

Why am I reading this and hearing Samuel L. Jackson's voice in my head?


My stance on it, is kind of a middle ground...

When the party isn't out adventuring, they are sometimes "working" and sometimes "free" so to speak. If the party is "working" - the ranger is gathering intel on the BBEG's latest doings, the cleric is trying to convince it's church to grant financial support, the fighter is in another town recruiting a few mercenaries - then the wizard is expected to also work for the group. This might include crafting items (or researching the BBEG with the ranger, or whatever). In this case, you don't charge since you're just doing your job, just like the cleric won't take all the financial support for him/herself and the fighter won't require payment whenever the mercenaries aid the group.

If the party is "free" - the ranger is home visiting it's parents, the cleric is on a personal pilgrimage, and the fighter's at the tavern for strong drinks and hot boys, then the wizard should be able to do what he wants. If he wants to take a fee for crafting then, on his own time, no hard feelings - though it's usually in better form to ask for some non-monetary payment. Just an "I owe you one" might often work, or it might be kept in days "I spent eight days crafting your sword, and I'm going to my brother's funeral and need your protection on the road.", or something similar. This is often both more flavorful, and keeps things in a better spirit than saying "well I want 10%".


loaba wrote:
stringburka wrote:
Dr Grecko wrote:
What I was mentioning is that if all wealth is considered party wealth, and each item created or bought comes from that pool and belongs to the party not the individual. I could really only see that working (in-game) for a good aligned group.
Communism - it's goood. ;D
Why am I reading this and hearing Samuel L. Jackson's voice in my head?

Hehe, I did too when writing it.


stringburka wrote:

My stance on it, is kind of a middle ground...

When the party isn't out adventuring, they are sometimes "working" and sometimes "free" so to speak. If the party is "working" - the ranger is gathering intel on the BBEG's latest doings, the cleric is trying to convince it's church to grant financial support, the fighter is in another town recruiting a few mercenaries - then the wizard is expected to also work for the group. This might include crafting items (or researching the BBEG with the ranger, or whatever). In this case, you don't charge since you're just doing your job, just like the cleric won't take all the financial support for him/herself and the fighter won't require payment whenever the mercenaries aid the group.

If the party is "free" - the ranger is home visiting it's parents, the cleric is on a personal pilgrimage, and the fighter's at the tavern for strong drinks and hot boys, then the wizard should be able to do what he wants. If he wants to take a fee for crafting then, on his own time, no hard feelings - though it's usually in better form to ask for some non-monetary payment. Just an "I owe you one" might often work, or it might be kept in days "I spent eight days crafting your sword, and I'm going to my brother's funeral and need your protection on the road.", or something similar. This is often both more flavorful, and keeps things in a better spirit than saying "well I want 10%".

String, if this is "middle ground" then that's where I am too. I have just rarely, and I mean RARELY had a situation in gaming where my characters are "free". If they are "free" that usually means "between adventures" and that means they aren't part of any party.

If there are some campaigns where player characters have weeks or months of downtime as part of the campaign, I haven't played one.


We often have a single or a few days of personal downtime in campaigns if there isn't an urgent hurry, because we often have characters with quite a bit of story focus. I usually DM, and most of the players are heavily down the "role" part of roleplaying (hell, I'm probably the most system interested of them, which is why I'm usually DM'ing) and want to do their personal stuff sometimes too.


Adamantine Dragon wrote:
If there are some campaigns where player characters have weeks or months of downtime as part of the campaign, I haven't played one.

Kingmaker is a prime example of an AP with built-in down-time. Also, when bridging AP chapters, down-time can easily be added in.

Finding enough down-time isn't hard, unless the GM and/or group wants/needs it to be.

Adamantine Dragon wrote:
What we HAVE said is that if you make something, that's great. If you want to make an item available to another party member, that's great too

then you say this...

Adamantine Dragon wrote:
But if you want us to pay you a fee for doing so, then don't be surprised when we start charging you for our own special skills that you benefit from.

That's one very insidious "but", AD. The first part of your statement seems to be very reasonable. The crafter can craft for himself (which is very magnanimous of you) and that's cool and furthermore, you're even okay with him offering to craft for other people.

BUT!

Warned be the crafter who adds on a 10% charge, kids. 'Cause he's about to be blackmailed into doing exactly what AD and friends want him to do.

See, AD, it's that attempt at in-game blackmail that ruins your argument and makes it quite plain that you expect the crafter to provide his services for free under any circumstance. I fully believe that if you played with a crafter who didn't offer his services for free or otherwise, you'd still blacklist the guy. You would say to the party - "look, this guy is taking advantage of us by not crafting for the party."


loaba wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
If there are some campaigns where player characters have weeks or months of downtime as part of the campaign, I haven't played one.

Kingmaker is a prime example of an AP with built-in down-time. Also, when bridging AP chapters, down-time can easily be added in.

Finding enough down-time isn't hard, unless the GM and/or group wants/needs it to be.

Adamantine Dragon wrote:
What we HAVE said is that if you make something, that's great. If you want to make an item available to another party member, that's great too

then you say this...

Adamantine Dragon wrote:
But if you want us to pay you a fee for doing so, then don't be surprised when we start charging you for our own special skills that you benefit from.

That's one very insidious "but", AD. The first part of your statement seems to be very reasonable. The crafter can craft for himself (which is very magnanimous of you) and that's cool and furthermore, you're even okay with him offering to craft for other people.

BUT!

Warned be the crafter who adds on a 10% charge, kids. 'Cause he's about to be blackmailed into doing exactly what AD and friends want him to do.

See, AD, it's that attempt at in-game blackmail that ruins your argument and makes it quite plain that you expect the crafter to provide his services for free under any circumstance. I fully believe that if you played with a crafter who didn't offer his services for free or otherwise, you'd still blacklist the guy. You would say to the party - "look, this guy is taking advantage of us by not crafting for the party."

loaba, so you can actually make a comment without making up stuff and accusing your opponents of saying it. Good. I'm glad.

So let's see. If the crafter charges ME a fee, that's fine, but if I return the favor, that's blackmail. Great.

"Hey, give me $10 and I'll let you have this thing I made!"
"Um.. OK, but I give you stuff for free all the time! I suppose I could start charging you too..."

"Blackmailer! Blackmailer! Blackmailer!!!!"


Adamantine Dragon wrote:
...stuff

Answer the question, AD. If a PC in the party crafts only for himself and never offers to do so for the party, is that okay? Or is he gonna be getting healing bills as well?


loaba wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
...stuff
Answer the question, AD. If a PC in the party crafts only for himself and never offers to do so for the party, is that okay? Or is he gonna be getting healing bills as well?

Read my posts instead of making up stuff I supposedly say loaba and you wouldn't have to ask questions that have been answered repeatedly.

Take the feat. Craft yourself stuff. Craft stuff and sell it to merchants. Take the trait exploit that lets you make money that way. I don't care.

But don't turn my character into your profit center. I don't do it to you, so don't do it to me.

As I told YOU directly in a previous post. I don't NEED your crafting items. I can FIND stuff for FREE by adventuring. That's why I do it. If you want to spend weeks crafting things, then knock yourself out. If it makes you a better party member, that's great too. But don't come to me and claim you're giving me a discount when you actually are selling it to me at the highest cost you actually can.

And stop with the attempts to paint my argument as metagaming loaba. Your dull, boring repetition of an unfounded assertion doesn't do anything but annoy people.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

The crafter never forces party members to buy anything from him. All he can do is offer them, in the case of the OP, a 40% discount.

Conversely, a petty group of whiny party members can choose to conspire against a PC with crafting feats, who won't craft for them at cost.

Joy.


Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Take the feat. Craft yourself stuff. Craft stuff and sell it to merchants. Take the trait exploit that lets you make money that way. I don't care.

There's a disconnect right there, AD. The majority of PC crafters don't make magic items for wholesale purposes. Rather their primary goal for taking the feat is to make at-cost items for themselves. The really nice ones then offer their companions as much as a 40% discount.

As for finding stuff for free, sure you can. But is it the right stuff? Your party crafter can make exactly what you want, probably exactly when you want it. But that's not worth a 40% discount. Oh no, 'cause YOU know that NPC's aren't gonna be having any of that. Right, AD? Meta-game on, 'bro. lol

Silver Crusade

Just make'em pay full price and ask your DM to either let you swap feats or craft the best stuff for yourself.


beej67 wrote:
Selgard wrote:
Yep.. some what, 200 posts later, and the ball still hasn't been moved from the 50 yard line, by either side.

And you still haven't answered my questions from back before you took your 200 post break.

Quote:

Truth:

If the group thinks that the crafter charging for crafting shouldn't be allowed- then it isn't allowed. End of story.

Noooooo. Stop lying.

Truth:
If the group thinks that the crafter charging for crafting shouldn't be allowed, and the crafter does, then the group loses its crafter and ends up paying 100% for everything. It kills the golden goose. End of story.

Quote:

Truth:

No one person inside the group has the right to dictate terms to the group. The dictator is the person who gets "thrown out" regardless of which side of the coin they are on

Noooooo. Stop lying.

Truth:
If the crafter wants to charge a fee, and someone doesn't like it, then they can always simply not ask/force the crafter to craft anything for them, and it's no different than if the crafter never took the feats in the first place.

The crafters who charge a fee are not the ones doing the "group-wrecking." You are.

Quote:
If Loaba or any of the others on the "pro fee" crowd came to Mine or Ad's game, you'd be expected to either accept it, craft for yourself, pay full price, or go home.

Never ever ever has any pro-fee crafter demanded that someone else buy stuff from them, ever in this thread, ever, in almost two thousand posts. On the other hand, the anti-fee crowd has repeatedly demanded that the crafter craft for them, for free, at least once a page. "Everybody does their own crafting" is completely fine as far as the pro-fee crafters are concerned.

Are you going to ignore this post too, Selgard?

The group might very well lose its crafter. Thats the choice of the group. If they say "no fee, period" its presumably with the knowledge that it might cost them the crafter who is making the issue.

That doesn't make me a liar.

Second:
If some *one* doesn't like it: this isn't what I said.
I said the group.
The group makes these decisions not any one person. Whoever can't get along with the group, stops being invited to the group.
*for either side*. Dude who can't get along with the "no fee" crowd is just as wrong as the guy who can't get along with the "X% fee" crowd.

I don't ignore your posts, I just disagree with your underlying premise.

You are still trying to turn it into an argument of 1 character vs 1 character when it isn't.
Its an issue of whether or not one character gets to dictate to the group.
They don't.
If one person has an issue with the group they can try to pursuade them but if they don't they can either go along with it or get out. This is really true for anything in the game.

Your "well the person can just say 'fine I won't craft for you' is just another way of saying "You can't make me abide by the groups rules". Which just doesn't fly.

They can't /make/ you craft. They can decide to leave your character behind in the tavern and go on without them.

No one gets to dictate terms to the group. No one gets to ignore the rules of the group. Doing so is a great way to become excluded from the group.

I don't "demand you craft for me" for free. or for anyone else.
I simply stand for the proposition that the crafter is already getting paid. You disagree. I get that. But don't say I'm ignoring you or something just because you don't like what I have to say. It is my opinion and it is going to remain my opinion.

-S


)(*@#)$(*$)(*@)#($*

....

I failed my will save.

-S


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Selgard wrote:

)(*@#)$(*$)(*@)#($*

....

I failed my will save.

-S

Wecome back amongst the rest of us who have failed our will saves, repeatedly.

:)


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Adamantine Dragon wrote:


What we HAVE said is that if you make something, that's great. If you want to make an item available to another party member, that's great too. But if you want us to pay you a fee for doing so, then don't be surprised when we start charging you for our own special skills that you benefit from.

Inflammatory-

Of course it's reasonable to escalate the game into individual payments for every spell and swing of the sword. Just as long as you charge less than market price, just like the crafter.
So, the Wizard can charge less than Caster Level x Spell Level x 10gp per spell.
The fighter can charge less than 3sp/day.
I guess the cleric can charge both amounts.

Less Inflammatory-
That sounds fair when the monsters are attacking and you're bravely defending the crafter while they make your items.
When you're back at town for a day, exactly what are you doing for the crafter while they craft for you?
If the answer is "nothing", your implication is that they have not pulled their weight in the dungeon and you need them to make it up to you somehow.

Confused-
If you're okay with the crafter making stuff for themselves because it benefits the party, why wouldn't you be okay with them taking 10% off the other PCs, also to benefit the party? Wouldn't it make sense to get every idle gold piece and channel it through the crafter into even more goodies?
What are you going to do when the crafter agrees to only craft for themselves, and finally one of the other party members realises that they'd rather have that item before the adventure... even if the discount is only 40%?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Nowhere in any post I have ever made have I insisted that ANY character with the crafting feat HAS to make ANYTHING for another party member. And your repeated insistence that the anti-profiteering argument boils down to enslaving the crafter is tiresome.

Well, Adamantine Dragon, you have not answered directly when asked, on more than one occasion, if you had any objections to crafters only crafting for themselves. But you have said:

Adamantine Dragon wrote:

So it is not unreasonable for the party members who took combat or metamagic feats to expect the crafter to hold up his end by crafting in his down time. That's the feat he picked.

.....
If they have the feat but DON'T CRAFT ANYTHING, then their combat contribution is lessened. So by crafting OUT OF COMBAT, they are contributing IN COMBAT. But only if they CRAFT THINGS.
.....
When the crafter took the crafting feat INSTEAD of a combat feat, he deferred some of his combat contribution to off-hours where his contribution became crafting items that make combat better.
.....
Many I play with would say "if you are going to CHARGE ME, then you are not welcome".

Reading that, I come to the conclusion that if someone takes a crafting feat in your games, they have to craft for the party and not charge any fee, or they are kicked out.

To me, it would appear that you have said that crafters have to craft for another party member.


Selgard wrote:

)(*@#)$(*$)(*@)#($*

....
I failed my will save.
-S

We missed you too. Welcome back!

Since we unfortunately have people who can't be bothered to read through the 1800+ posts on the subject and seem content jumping into the thread with no context whatsoever I'll reiterate the Humphrey Boggard Crafting Plan^TM:

Do whatever is fun for you and your group of friends crafting-wise. For those of you with a raging brainer for the metagame math I'll run the numbers again.

If you go by the SKR FAQWTFBBQ:

Crafting an item creates half it's value in wealth in the game economy EXCEPT when the item ends up with the crafter herself. To split that created wealth equally divide it by the number of players and one share of that is equivalent to the crafting fee, e.g., a 4000gp belt of strength +2 costs 2000gp to craft and injects 2000gp into the party economy. Divide that surplus 2000gp by the number of party members, say four in this case, to get 500gp of surplus per party member which is the mathematically fair crafting fee. So the crafter should ask for 2500gp to craft the item, pocketing 500gp.

If you don't go by SKR FAQLMFAOLOL:

Crafting an item creates half it's value in wealth but a crafter's WBL is calculated the same as everyone else. Then you can keep everyone's WBL equal by not charging crafting fees.


I'll assume your math is correct. (I've failed more math classes than I've passed- literally lol)

My issue isn't really with WBL. or whether or not you follow X rule or Y rule or whatever someone thinks about SKR's ruling.

My issue is really- WBL is a tool for the DM not a hammer or a nail for the players.

If they PC's get out of whack power wise one method the DM has is to tinker with the group's WBL either individually or as a group. If the DM wants the group to stay at "WBL" then its his job and duty to keep it so.

It shouldn't be the case that the PC's have to say "I'm going to make X decision about what my character can/can't will/won't do" solely based on some completely abstract set of numbers.

If the group doesn't mind the crafter charging the crafter should be able to charge. And he should be able to charge any fee that the group finds acceptable.

If the group doesn't want the crafter charging, then they shouldn't charge.

WBL and all that really shouldn't be an issue. Because thats the DM's ball of yarn, not the PC's.

Groups can vary of course. If the DM said "Guys I'm not going to tinker with WBL I'd rather the crafter just use Boggard's formula from the boards" I'd do it- but I'd not be terribly pleased. It goes against the very fabric of the group for someone to be charging extra for their contribution and it would grate on me that the DM decided to impose that meta-game construct on my chracter's Rp decision.

I understand thats just my preference rather than "a rule". but preference is really what this thread is about ;)

-S


Mistwalker wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Nowhere in any post I have ever made have I insisted that ANY character with the crafting feat HAS to make ANYTHING for another party member. And your repeated insistence that the anti-profiteering argument boils down to enslaving the crafter is tiresome.

Well, Adamantine Dragon, you have not answered directly when asked, on more than one occasion, if you had any objections to crafters only crafting for themselves. But you have said:

Adamantine Dragon wrote:

So it is not unreasonable for the party members who took combat or metamagic feats to expect the crafter to hold up his end by crafting in his down time. That's the feat he picked.

.....
If they have the feat but DON'T CRAFT ANYTHING, then their combat contribution is lessened. So by crafting OUT OF COMBAT, they are contributing IN COMBAT. But only if they CRAFT THINGS.
.....
When the crafter took the crafting feat INSTEAD of a combat feat, he deferred some of his combat contribution to off-hours where his contribution became crafting items that make combat better.
.....
Many I play with would say "if you are going to CHARGE ME, then you are not welcome".

Reading that, I come to the conclusion that if someone takes a crafting feat in your games, they have to craft for the party and not charge any fee, or they are kicked out.

To me, it would appear that you have said that crafters have to craft for another party member.

I hate to say "I speak for AD here" but I think he and I are on the same page here:

Its not really an issue of "you have to craft for me" or john or jim.
its an issue of:
"I'm going to charge 20% for my crafting"
*group confers*
"You are already getting paid for your contribution. We'd rather you not do that"
"screw you I'll craft for myself only and if you want anyting from me its 20% or not at all, sorry guys, I play my PC how I want to"

Its a "do you do what you want" or "do you do as the group asks" issue.
For some of you, you think its prefectly acceptable to just tell the group to screw off, you'll do what you want.

Others don't find that acceptable.

To me: its like trying to be evil when the group has alrready said they want everyone to be good- or trying to be a paladin when the group is predominantly evil.

Some decisions are group decisions, and people should form their characters around that.

-S


So, it's craft for free or else, cuz we say so, then...

Shadow Lodge

pretty much...


I would like to point out to the "free crafting crowd" that the crafter is contributing and doing his job. He is fighting in the encounters and he is casting spells when needed, even when the spells are costly. That is his job.
What isn't his job is to craft for free, even for his teammates. That's a downtime thing. A hobby. Like gardening, but more useful. He's also doing them a service. A big service, I should add, because they save a whole 40% and get a commissioned item, not a random one.
So essentially the argument "Craft for free or you'll get kicked out of the team for not contributing" is flawed, because the crafter is contributing, likely more than you.
The same with the argument "I'm gonna charge for every swing/heal/disabled trap". That's fine, but then you will get kicked out from the team for not doing your job. Bye.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Selgard wrote:

I'll assume your math is correct. (I've failed more math classes than I've passed- literally lol)

My issue isn't really with WBL. or whether or not you follow X rule or Y rule or whatever someone thinks about SKR's ruling.

Rest of quote regarding WBL:

My issue is really- WBL is a tool for the DM not a hammer or a nail for the players.

If they PC's get out of whack power wise one method the DM has is to tinker with the group's WBL either individually or as a group. If the DM wants the group to stay at "WBL" then its his job and duty to keep it so.

It shouldn't be the case that the PC's have to say "I'm going to make X decision about what my character can/can't will/won't do" solely based on some completely abstract set of numbers.

If the group doesn't mind the crafter charging the crafter should be able to charge. And he should be able to charge any fee that the group finds acceptable.

If the group doesn't want the crafter charging, then they shouldn't charge.

WBL and all that really shouldn't be an issue. Because thats the DM's ball of yarn, not the PC's.

Groups can vary of course. If the DM said "Guys I'm not going to tinker with WBL I'd rather the crafter just use Boggard's formula from the boards" I'd do it- but I'd not be terribly pleased. It goes against the very fabric of the group for someone to be charging extra for their contribution and it would grate on me that the DM decided to impose that meta-game construct on my chracter's Rp decision.


I understand thats just my preference rather than "a rule". but preference is really what this thread is about ;)

-S

@Selgard - I totally agree. WBL doesn't figure into our games prominently although the players try to be mindful of balance as a courtesy to the GM.

Analysis of rule systems gives me a raging brainer and in that respect my professional life tends to bleed into my private life. But at the table personal relationships (in and out of character) take center stage. In one our games that works out to a 15% crafting fee. In another that might work out to be the free crafting model or crafting for charity.

I think all are valid and fun options.

What isn't valid or fun is threatening players for their decision to charge for crafting.

edit: Removed direct calling out of other posters. Also, grammar.

Shadow Lodge

while i agree that AD is very antagonistic in his postings at times, directly calling someone out is not ok on these boards.

^ this post will most likly get taken down, or worse cause the thread to get locked if it causes progression towards a flame fest.

lets keep is civil and not directly attack people, and while we're at it keep the thread on topic.

so to contribute to the post i say "no metagaming". if you metagame and it comes down to someone having to leave the group, then i would petition a Gm lightning bolt to kill your character due to "cheating" by metagaming.

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