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Creating magical item for the party + small fee on the work = players uprorar?


Advice

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Ravenbow wrote:

Wow this thread has gotten long.

I skipped many pages I admit but...

Bob Sue Kathy and Bill. Your average party.

Bill receives some training and can make a flashlight for $20 after a stop at Johns Light shop for parts.

Bob Sue and Kathy can either buy the flashlight from Bill for $22 ($20 + 10% or $2 for his time) or go to the local adventure-mart and buy it for $40.

What is the discussion?

That Bill should sell it to them for $20 because he made it himself? You still saved $18 why are you complaining? And what do you say to John? He is an even bigger jerk because he must have read some rulebook to a GAME that said he had to sell at fixed price even if he was "some kind of special" who could blow on dust-bunnies and make batteries at no cost. Bill still has to pay full battery price? Wow that John is sure a jerk.

That would be my response to what I read skipping pages.

So, then you have no problem if Bob picks up a sword from a slain enemy, turning around and charging Sue 10% as a "finders fee" I suppose. After all, Sue would otherwise have to pay full price at a magic shop, and Bob does have it after all. He struck the killing blow. He did the work. So Sue should pony up the extra cash. Right?

And Kathy's heals, could just as well have been healing potions Bob had to buy, so why should Bob complain about paying a fee for heals?

After all, it's a bargain!

Silver Crusade

Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Ravenbow wrote:

Wow this thread has gotten long.

I skipped many pages I admit but...

Bob Sue Kathy and Bill. Your average party.

Bill receives some training and can make a flashlight for $20 after a stop at Johns Light shop for parts.

Bob Sue and Kathy can either buy the flashlight from Bill for $22 ($20 + 10% or $2 for his time) or go to the local adventure-mart and buy it for $40.

What is the discussion?

That Bill should sell it to them for $20 because he made it himself? You still saved $18 why are you complaining? And what do you say to John? He is an even bigger jerk because he must have read some rulebook to a GAME that said he had to sell at fixed price even if he was "some kind of special" who could blow on dust-bunnies and make batteries at no cost. Bill still has to pay full battery price? Wow that John is sure a jerk.

That would be my response to what I read skipping pages.

So, then you have no problem if Bob picks up a sword from a slain enemy, turning around and charging Sue 10% as a "finders fee" I suppose. After all, Sue would otherwise have to pay full price at a magic shop, and Bob does have it after all. He struck the killing blow. He did the work. So Sue should pony up the extra cash. Right?

And Kathy's heals, could just as well have been healing potions Bob had to buy, so why should Bob complain about paying a fee for heals?

After all, it's a bargain!

Actually no I wouldn't because that's one way we do it. If we find items we all want we roll to see who gets it. If Jimmy wins it then he could turn around and sell it to Bobby for what ever he wants. Now if Bobby finds the price reasonable he will pay it, if not then he won't.


shallowsoul wrote:

Actually no I wouldn't because that's one way we do it. If we find items we all want we roll to see who gets it. If Jimmy wins it then he could turn around and sell it to Bobby for what ever he wants. Now if Bobby finds the price reasonable he will pay it, if not then he won't.

OK, I think I got it. Every character has a random chance to profit from their party members, should they choose to do so, but in your party only the crafter is guaranteed a profit.


Way to muddy the waters, AD.

Loot distribution and crafting are two different things. Just because Fighter-Friend struck the killing blow, that doesn't discount all the damage Mr. Wizard did the previous two rounds.

Combat = group effort
Crafting = individual effort


I have it. YOu want it. I can profit from it.

Anything else is metagaming. "I have a FEAT".

You want to play capitalist profiteers...

I'll play a capitalist profiteer.

Been down this road several times now. The argument is the same.

You charge me.

I charge you.

Simple. Straightforward. Fair.


Adamantine Dragon wrote:

I have it. YOu want it. I can profit from it.

Anything else is metagaming. "I have a FEAT".

You want to play capitalist profiteers...

I'll play a capitalist profiteer.

Been down this road several times now. The argument is the same.

You charge me.

I charge you.

Simple. Straightforward. Fair.

But is the wizard not acting in combat as well? He's not asking you to pay for his time or use in combat. He's asking you to pay to take things from what could be his shop. That's his off-duty livlihood, and you expect him to make you items at cost because in your NOT free time (dungeoneering) you both do your jobs? If he simply stood by and took from the loot, with his ONLY task being a craftmonkey, sure. But I'm sure he doesn't, as a party member.

So you swing your sword, he casts his spells. In your time in a city, were you to win at a casino should you be expected to split that loot up evenly with the party?


Shah Jahan the King of Kings wrote:
So you swing your sword, he casts his spells. In your time in a city, were you to win at a casino should you be expected to split that loot up evenly with the party?

AD is going to say that he wasn't playing against his friends when he won, therefore he can keep the additional loot.

Nice.

Now try this on for size - the party Face says "hey guys I'm gonna play in a game with a 200000gp buy-in. If you guys each front me 50k, then I'll have enough to enter. If I win, you guys get your 50k back + 10% interest. I keep the rest.

Assuming Face-man wins big, is he stealing from the party?


eleclipse wrote:

this caused an unexpected reaction on the other players (not pg, players).

How anyone sees this as a 'jerk move' is beyond me. You are playing your character - your character is spending his time and expertise to create a product. If the other players don't like it, have them get their items elsewhere. This is coming from a guy with 20+ years at the gaming table.

It should be a non-issue - if they don't want to pay a very reasonable fee, have them buy wholesale elsewhere.


Shah Jahan the King of Kings wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:

I have it. YOu want it. I can profit from it.

Anything else is metagaming. "I have a FEAT".

You want to play capitalist profiteers...

I'll play a capitalist profiteer.

Been down this road several times now. The argument is the same.

You charge me.

I charge you.

Simple. Straightforward. Fair.

But is the wizard not acting in combat as well? He's not asking you to pay for his time or use in combat. He's asking you to pay to take things from what could be his shop. That's his off-duty livlihood, and you expect him to make you items at cost because in your NOT free time (dungeoneering) you both do your jobs? If he simply stood by and took from the loot, with his ONLY task being a craftmonkey, sure. But I'm sure he doesn't, as a party member.

So you swing your sword, he casts his spells. In your time in a city, were you to win at a casino should you be expected to split that loot up evenly with the party?

actually in our current game, this is how we're playing. pool everything we get and then split it up.

the other players are really glad for this cause i've been making a hundred thousand a month, and am about to multiply that by 3 with a couple choice items. so instead of my character being VASTLY stronger than the rest, i'm splitting it evenly with the party. but before the game we decided we would share everything


Shah Jahan the King of Kings wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:

I have it. YOu want it. I can profit from it.

Anything else is metagaming. "I have a FEAT".

You want to play capitalist profiteers...

I'll play a capitalist profiteer.

Been down this road several times now. The argument is the same.

You charge me.

I charge you.

Simple. Straightforward. Fair.

But is the wizard not acting in combat as well? He's not asking you to pay for his time or use in combat. He's asking you to pay to take things from what could be his shop. That's his off-duty livlihood, and you expect him to make you items at cost because in your NOT free time (dungeoneering) you both do your jobs? If he simply stood by and took from the loot, with his ONLY task being a craftmonkey, sure. But I'm sure he doesn't, as a party member.

So you swing your sword, he casts his spells. In your time in a city, were you to win at a casino should you be expected to split that loot up evenly with the party?

alot of this is also assuming the crafter is a wizard, which I made my crafter be a fighter. fighter's don't really lose much crafting cause they have tons of feats.

I think the point AD is making is that if you start charging for something, why can't someone else charge for something else? if he's not making that argument, how does fee crafting compare to the slippery slope argument? cause i'm sure the guy with the out of combat healing could have most of the group by the balls if he says, "give me 50g or i won't heal you."


Ravingdork wrote:
I LOVE THE NEW FAQ RULING!

Where?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
beej67 wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
I LOVE THE NEW FAQ RULING!

Where?

PC Wealth By Level (page 399): If a PC has an item crafting feat, does a crafted item count as its Price or its Cost?

It counts as the item's Cost, not the Price. This comes into play in two ways.

If you're equipping a higher-level PC, you have to count crafted items at their Cost. Otherwise the character isn't getting any benefit for having the feat. Of course, the GM is free to set limits in equipping the character, such as "no more than 40% of your wealth can be used for armor" (instead of the "balanced approach" described on page 400 where the PC should spend no more than 25% on armor).

If you're looking at the party's overall wealth by level, you have to count crafted items at their Cost. Otherwise, if you counted crafted items at their Price, the crafting character would look like she had more wealth than appropriate for her level, and the GM would have to to bring this closer to the target gear value by reducing future treasure for that character, which means eventually that character has the same gear value as a non-crafting character--in effect neutralizing any advantage of having that feat at all.

—Sean K Reynolds, 01/13/12


Personally, I wouldn't have a problem with 5% or 10%. Considering that most crafters are casters that rely on a lot of consumables to cover their limited number of spell slots, a small fee to cover the fact that they are using their time to make something for someone else instead of scrolls/wands/potions for themselves is perfectly reasonable. They are, in fact, weakening their own combat ability to strengthen someone else's, and that deserves at least some token recognition. Not to mention that some DM's actually enforce the costs of expensive material components, as well as add research costs to figure out how to craft the item in the first place. I could even see up to 20% under the right circumstances. I wouldn't go above 20%, but even 20% isn't even close to making them pay market value.

A fighter laying the killing blow or the cleric spending a spell slot to heal someone isn't putting in the same amount of time or effort that the crafter is, and they are using resources and skills that come as part of being that class, whereas a crafter is spending a fair bit of time and optional feat selections. If the others don't want to pay the fee, they can spend their optional feat slots on the necessary feats, and make it themselves.


sunshadow21 wrote:
A fighter laying the killing blow or the cleric spending a spell slot to heal someone isn't putting in the same amount of time or effort that the crafter is, and they are using resources and skills that come as part of being that class, whereas a crafter is spending a fair bit of time and optional feat selections.

Cleric casts Heal like the Rogue wipes his butt; every day! There is no comparison between charging for class functions and charging for crafting items.

AD just wants to meta-game his way into a 50% discount. Yay!


loaba wrote:
Shah Jahan the King of Kings wrote:
So you swing your sword, he casts his spells. In your time in a city, were you to win at a casino should you be expected to split that loot up evenly with the party?

AD is going to say that he wasn't playing against his friends when he won, therefore he can keep the additional loot.

Nice.

Now try this on for size - the party Face says "hey guys I'm gonna play in a game with a 200000gp buy-in. If you guys each front me 50k, then I'll have enough to enter. If I win, you guys get your 50k back + 10% interest. I keep the rest.

Assuming Face-man wins big, is he stealing from the party?

So, for the second time loaba, stop putting words in my mouth. I am flagging this one and I'll flag every one you do this. It is unbelievably rude and irritating to do this, and you do it repeatedly.

I can speak for myself.


loaba wrote:
sunshadow21 wrote:
A fighter laying the killing blow or the cleric spending a spell slot to heal someone isn't putting in the same amount of time or effort that the crafter is, and they are using resources and skills that come as part of being that class, whereas a crafter is spending a fair bit of time and optional feat selections.

Cleric casts Heal like the Rogue wipes his butt; every day! There is no comparison between charging for class functions and charging for crafting items.

AD just wants to meta-game his way into a 50% discount. Yay!

Flagged that one too loaba. Stop speaking for me, and stop claiming that my argument is one thing when it clearly is something else.

Let me break down your arguments.

1. Crafters can charge party members because they provide a "discount". So do healers who charge party members. There is no difference. Crafters and healers both provide a service that is available at a standard price from a magic store.

2. Crafters can charge party members because they do their bit "out of combat" using "their own personal time". So do healers who heal properly. So do rangers who track. So do rogues who sneak.

3. Crafters can charge party members because the WBL economy allows them to. No, I've repeatedly asked for any single instance in the RAW which discusses crafters selling to party members. It doesn't. It only mentions crafters who make things only for themselves. There is no RAW that covers this issue.

None of your arguments hold up. The bottom line argument is "I took the crafting feat to make a profit from my party members because that's the ONLY IN GAME WAY to increase wealth using crafting."

Fine, go ahead and do it. But you can whine and moan all you like when I ask for 50 gold to heal you. Pay it or bleed.


Adamantine Dragon wrote:


Flagged that one too loaba. Stop speaking for me, and stop claiming that my argument is one thing when it clearly is something else.

Let me break down your arguments.

1. Crafters can charge party members because they provide a "discount". So do healers who charge party members. There is no difference. Crafters and healers both provide a service that is available at a standard price from a magic store.

2. Crafters can charge party members because they do their bit "out of combat" using "their own personal time". So do healers who heal properly. So do rangers who track. So do rogues who sneak.

3. Crafters can charge party members because the WBL economy allows them to. No, I've repeatedly asked for any single instance in the RAW which discusses crafters selling to party members. It doesn't. It only mentions crafters who make things only for themselves. There is no RAW that covers this issue.

None of your arguments hold up. The bottom line argument is "I took the crafting feat to make a profit from my party members because that's the ONLY IN GAME WAY to increase wealth using crafting."

Fine, go ahead and do it. But you can whine and moan all you like when I ask for 50 gold to heal you. Pay it or bleed.

Regardless your argument is the one which is flawed because the rules tell you the crafter is suppose to get more value out of his WBL because of the feat it's in the FAQ quoted like 3 posts up.

Now that works great if you don't craft for friends once you do the system goes straight into the s~$%ter unless you have a fee or direct DM intervention now you can choose any of the three options but one of them has to happen to follow the idea laid out in the FAQ.

And the only way for players to buy magic items is to buy them from the merchants the only way to get them for less is from other players how dare they violate the RAW like that for profit!? See how that argument applies to both sides?


Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Flagged that one too loaba. Stop speaking for me, and stop claiming that my argument is one thing when it clearly is something else.

And..

Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Let me break down your arguments...

One has to appreciate the irony of someone who flags someone for the very thing they themselves do in the same post (next sentence to be exact). Hmpf!


Adamantine Dragon wrote:

Let me break down your arguments.

1. Crafters can charge party members because they provide a "discount". So do healers who charge party members. There is no difference. Crafters and healers both provide a service that is available at a standard price from a magic store.

2. Crafters can charge party members because they do their bit "out of combat" using "their own personal time". So do healers who heal properly. So do rangers who track. So do rogues who sneak.

3. Crafters can charge party members because the WBL economy allows them to. No, I've repeatedly asked for any single instance in the RAW which discusses crafters selling to party members. It doesn't. It only mentions crafters who make things only for themselves. There is no RAW that covers this issue.

None of your arguments hold up. The bottom line argument is "I took the crafting feat to make a profit from my party members because that's the ONLY IN GAME WAY to increase wealth using crafting."

Fine, go ahead and do it. But you can whine and moan all you like when I ask for 50 gold to heal you. Pay it or bleed.

Lets Breakdown the Breakdown:

1) The difference lies in the Crafter is providing a service above and beyond the normal adventuring tasks.. Crafter wizard casts spells just as much as Mr Healer casts heals.

2) So does the Crafter wizard who researches in the library. aka see #1

3) Re-read SKR's ruling on the RAW behind crafting and WBL. It's on a few pages here, you should be able to find it. Also to adapt a movie reference: Can you show me in the CRB where the rules for how to use the bathroom are? The rules don't prohibit selling, so selling is legal.

Un-numbered 1) The arguments hold up quite well, you're just mischaracterizing them. Also, as repeatedly mentioned Selling to party members is NOT the only IN GAME WAY to increase wealth with crafting. See the Hedge Magician trait as exhibit A in that regard.

Un-numbered 2) "I see you are grappled, Pay me 50gp to grease you or get crushed to death"

*Edit* Bonus points to the first one to guess the movie reference that I was adapting for in #3.


dragonfire8974 wrote:
Shah Jahan the King of Kings wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:

I have it. YOu want it. I can profit from it.

Anything else is metagaming. "I have a FEAT".

You want to play capitalist profiteers...

I'll play a capitalist profiteer.

Been down this road several times now. The argument is the same.

You charge me.

I charge you.

Simple. Straightforward. Fair.

But is the wizard not acting in combat as well? He's not asking you to pay for his time or use in combat. He's asking you to pay to take things from what could be his shop. That's his off-duty livlihood, and you expect him to make you items at cost because in your NOT free time (dungeoneering) you both do your jobs? If he simply stood by and took from the loot, with his ONLY task being a craftmonkey, sure. But I'm sure he doesn't, as a party member.

So you swing your sword, he casts his spells. In your time in a city, were you to win at a casino should you be expected to split that loot up evenly with the party?

alot of this is also assuming the crafter is a wizard, which I made my crafter be a fighter. fighter's don't really lose much crafting cause they have tons of feats.

I think the point AD is making is that if you start charging for something, why can't someone else charge for something else? if he's not making that argument, how does fee crafting compare to the slippery slope argument? cause i'm sure the guy with the out of combat healing could have most of the group by the balls if he says, "give me 50g or i won't heal you."

The problem I have with the slippery slope argument is that if everyone charges for everything, ultimately everybody ends up equal...

eg.
Ranger charges 50g for tracking
Fighter charges 50g for tripping
Cleric charges 50g for heals
Wizard charges 50g for spells

Everyone ultimately pays eachother roughly the same for what they do, and in the end, the Crafter guy still ends up ahead because he also charges for crafting. The argument just doesnt hold up.


Adamantine Dragon wrote:
So, for the second time loaba, stop putting words in my mouth.

Who's putting words in your mouth, AD? Based on what you've said previously, casino gambling appears to be okay. There is no inter-party contract there. Is there?

Adamantine Dragon wrote:
flagging this one and I'll flag every one you do this. It is unbelievably rude and irritating to do this, and you do it repeatedly.

You played the Big Jerk card, AD. That was definitely in the realm of rude and irritating. I guess someone should have flagged that, huh? lol

Adamantine Dragon wrote:
loaba wrote:
AD just wants to meta-game his way into a 50% discount. Yay!
Flagged that one too loaba. Stop speaking for me, and stop claiming that my argument is one thing when it clearly is something else.

Read your own posts, man!

Your argument is solely based on the fact that YOU know the rules in regards to crafting and selling items to NPC's. That's meta-gaming! Your character, in all probability, thinks that buying a custom ordered magic item for less than shop price is a very good thing indeed.

In-character, fee-crafting is a really good deal. Out-of-character, Free-crafting makes sense because you assume the crafter can't refuse your demands and sell the item for more.

Yes, AD, I stand by my statement. You are using the meta-game to justify the best price for your character. In doing so, you're devaluing the in-game time of the crafter PC.

Adamantine Dragon wrote:

Let me break down your arguments.

1. Crafters can charge party members because they provide a "discount". So do healers who charge party members. There is no difference. Crafters and healers both provide a service that is available at a standard price from a magic store.

Combat healing is not the same as combat crafting. In fact, there is no such thing as combat crafting.

See the difference now?

Adamantine Dragon wrote:
2. Crafters can charge party members because they do their bit "out of combat" using "their own personal time". So do healers who heal properly. So do rangers who track. So do rogues who sneak.

Track costs the Ranger nothing and he's going to do it anyway.

Rogue sneaks for free and he's going to do it anyway.

Are you seeing the trend yet?

Adamantine Dragon wrote:
3. Crafters can charge party members because the WBL economy allows them to. No, I've repeatedly asked for any single instance in the RAW which discusses crafters selling to party members. It doesn't. It only mentions crafters who make things only for themselves. There is no RAW that covers this issue.

So if there's no RAW, well then it must be bad-wrong for the crafter to value his time and charge for it?

Adamantine Dragon wrote:
None of your arguments hold up. The bottom line argument is "I took the crafting feat to make a profit from my party members because that's the ONLY IN GAME WAY to increase wealth using crafting."

The bottom line is, again AD, that you just don't want to pay the crafter more than 50%. 'Cause you're cheap and you don't recognize a good deal when you see one. :P

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32 , Star Voter 2013

Countering the wizard's 10% crafting fee by charging for your actions in the party is a foolish gambit. My wizards have universally been the one in the party that did the most damage, handed out the most buffs, helped the adventure through scrying/teleporting/door-making, and if necessary could do a fair share of OoC healing thanks to UMD.

If I really wanted, my wizard could make a minion that's as powerful as you (and have, free of charge). Now that every gold that would be given to you for your sword swings can be deducted from your debt to the skeleton's punches, you can provide any normal loot you get to the wizard because of all the stuff he's doing on top of that.

Not exactly a good way to 'get back' at the supposedly greedy wizard.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Mistwalker wrote:

Hmm, sounds a bit like you are telling me how to play my character.

Moving the goal posts? Hardly. . . .

Nope, not telling you how to play your character at all. Just responding to a rather old excuse players have used for their decisions. "It's what my character would do." Whereas it may literally be true, functionally you decided what your character would do. I responded to you expressing the need to charge in order to feel appreciated. . . you responded with: (paraphrasing) it's not me, it's my character. Trying to transfer that feeling of unappreciation to the character rather than you was you moving the goalpost . .. or dodging. . .

Mistwalker wrote:
The crafter should be recompensed for their time for crafting during downtime. . .

. . .and the tank should be compensated for standing between you and whatever evil you're facing. The Cleric spends time between battles ("Downtime") healing you, and should be compensated for their efforts. Some of that healing happens back in town with expensive components. . . Raise Dead and Restoration come to mind. He should be compensated. That caster over there? He could cast Bull's Str on you. .. using up his limited time in combat, or he could cast an offensive spell(getting that spotlight), or even cast bull's Str on himself. . . Or he can cast it back in town as part of the crafting process and do both, buff you and damage them. All of the above should be compensated for their particular character's specialized skills, expertise, time and risk. Not a single person has ever said otherwise. The opposing argument is that everyone gets a fair share of the loot. The crafter is no exception.

If XP costs were still part of the equation this would be different. As they are not, crafting is just casting with a longer duration and a more expensive component.

Furthermore you aren't being forced to play a crafter, and you are getting substantial bonuses for being one. You are not "sacrificing" anything. The only time I've ever seen that sort of thing happen was with the Cleric. . . players forced to play the cleric because the DM or players insisted they needed a healer. In that situation, that player being forced to play something they don't want, has a legitimate case for asking/demanding a larger share of the spoils.

Mistwalker wrote:
Not every character personality has to be three musketeer like

And since you of course remember my first post, where I mentioned my crafters are Evil (well, 2 of 3 anyway). . . and that they don't charge fees, you'll understand why this personality thing has no bearing. It can, if you make it an issue around your table. However, in the question of should Crafters charge interest (a broad general question), the personality you may or may not choose for your characters is substantively meaningless. Good, Bad, my table functions as a team. Even when our characters don't like each other.

Mistwalker wrote:
I disagree. WBL is part of what is used to set the difficulty of the encounters . . .

Great! Still meaningless. The wealth chart is not a religious doctrine. That is the general figure of where players are expected to be in regards to the CR system. It does not equate to power. The compass does not point the way you are supposed to go, it points north as a reference. It helps you decide the direction to go, not dictate it to you. That chart is nothing but a compass for the DM, one of several.

Example 1:Head to one of the DPR threads, imagine dumping 20 +1 swords in front of any of those characters. Technically their wealth just shot up 40,000. .. their power has not changed one iota. They get those things back to town and are able to sell them for 50%. . . their wealth as far as the figures/charts go just dropped 20,000. . . again power affected not 1 bit. Mayhaps the rogue in the party (because his character would do that sort of thing) steals the money. . . just dropped another 20,000. . . power stays the same.

Example 2: A controller style caster goes into the left room, the dpr fighter goes into the right room. Both encounter a Balor. After a round or two the Controller has a balor pet, the fighter has a balor corpse. . . Which is the more powerful? and which requires more wealth to maintain/increase that power?

Does wealth affect power? Sure. The DPR threads are showing a wide range of power based on a specific premise of character wealth. Take away the wealth and that power drops. Meanwhile, observe the disparity in power with characters of equal wealth. Most of those characters have achieved power beyond what the WBL/CR system expected, all with the same GP value. Notice how expensive weapons are? I've read complaints towards the the fighter/wizard about how the fighter needs so much more wealth to be effective. Typically the crafter is a caster . . someone who doesn't need the wealth as much as the fighter'ish members of the party. (though non-casting varieties are fun, just working with basics at the moment)

That Evangelical Cleric I mentioned before, at 10th level (to match one of the DPR threads I read). . . he would only need about 25000 of the 62000 in order to be effective in combat. More would be appreciated (deck out that tiger for instance), but everything over that initial 25k is just bonus. (Lesser metamagic rod of quicken, and headband of wisdom +4. . . crafting costs about 25k if I remember correctly).

The Fee is not needed. I may want more money. Or my "Character" may want more money if I'm using that excuse. But I don't need it to retain parity. The WBL arguments are pointless. All those charts and math you guys did, was a complete and utter waste of time. Power vs.wealth is not a universal linear equation.

Mistwalker wrote:
No insult was intended. I refered to the free crafting crowd as a whole, not you personally. Yes, it is a generalization, but accurate so far. You are only recently joined to the...

You may have noticed I haven't based arguments on generalizations about the "Fee Crafters." 2 reasons. One is political, if it comes across as disparaging then the discussion goes off track and my ability to persuade drops to zero. Two is practical. An argument based on a flawed premise is done before the argument even finishes. Though I read your entire post, I didn't have to. The only thing I had to do to remove the legitimacy of your argument was to say "I don't fit your generalization because. . ." Which is what I did. If I based an argument on a generalization, then anyone could simply state that they don't fit, and the argument is derailed. You attempt to defend your generalization premise by taking/reprinting names. Any one of them can further disprove by saying it was in the heat of the moment, or that they revised in a later post. I can further discount your premise (and thus your whole argument) by pointing out that 5 or so people may make enough for a confirmation bias, it does not a sufficient sample group make. How many Pathfinder players are there? how many have you polled? I've already thrown a wrench in the works by not fitting the generalization. . . I can pick up the phone and have another half dozen.

. . .

A Couple summaries of points made so far:
You've stated you need to charge a fee in order to feel appreciated. . .
You've stated no. . . its your "character" that needs to charge in order to feel appreciated
- Its you, and if your group doesn't appreciate you, charging a fee won't help. Either they aren't being appreciative of a member of the party (being jerks for lack of a better term), or they aren't expressing their appreciation in a way you recognize. . . sounds like a group chat may be in order. Can't really give good recommendations here, as I don't know if you are expressing a real problem, or expressing one in an attempt to support the Fee position. . . Either way this is less a reason for a fee and more a reason to work out whatever problems you're having with your group. That said, it's been your strongest argument thus far.

Then there's the WBL thing ( I swear visions of the Animaniacs leap through my head every time I see that abbreviation). . . Extensive math and whatnot in an attempt to prove you "need" that gp in order to retain parity and not become the weak link.
- I've debunked this in at least two ways.

One: Crafting is a Buff ability. Buffing is more powerful the more people are affected, not less. Extending the example of that cleric of mine, using the quicken metamagic rod, and the inspire courage of the evangelical that cleric in the first round would provide +4 Att +3 damage in buff spells, and provide about +1 better stat bonus and +1 better weapon bonus using the craft feats. Several have displayed an interest and skill in math, so here's your chance to prove me wrong. Head to one of those DPR threads, ~10th level. Take their base damage, then rework with the +6/+5 that this cleric would provide within the first round. The difference. . . is DPR attributed to this cleric, as this damage is effectively caused by him. Three characters: a fighter type, rogue type, and arcane type. combine and compare, does this character concept have parity, or is it "The Weak Link" (I'm curious to see how it does myself) (Inspire Courage 2/2, Prayer 1/1, Bless 1/0 = 4/3, if you have a better spell idea run with it)

Two: If a caster is a crafting they don't need bonus cash, their power tends to be less easily quantified. If not a caster they've likely already made their uber weapon and a Fee (or tip) will only get them minor (not power affecting) gear. Detailed above. I've only given two examples of how WBL != Power, there are more I can give, but you expressed a dislike for the many words I use.

Mistwalker wrote:

Not everyone plays with a min-max approach. Not every element has to be the optimized element.

Making the group stronger while making yourself less strong reduces your survival chances as the group will be facing more challenging encounters, which you will have less chance of surviving.

Either the first statement is a non sequitur and you might as well be discussing golfing on the moon for it's relevance, or you're stating that my suggestions on how a team oriented approach works best(I even sourced that argument), thus don't charge for any service between party members is not pertinent to the discussion. If the former is true. . . then yes. I in fact rarely if every create characters solely with Min/Max in mind, but use it mostly to help gauge whether or not my character is a weak link and faces the likelihood of death. If the Latter is your intent then we have another "?!" moment. As the two statements contradict each other's intent.

Intent, because the second statement is factually wrong on every level. Crafting does not weaken you. When a bard casts a haste spell does it become "Weaker". . . of course not, it will benefit as well as the party. When a crafter gets a (party)crafting the crafter gets stronger, along with the party. This has now been well established. And since neither you nor anyone has even attempted to challenge that conclusion (preferring to banter about the WBL(cue Animaniacs) and the feeling of being 'Appreciated'). . . ?

Or you can charge a fee (more the ironic)
Vedoun
P.S. - There were other points, but I got bored. I'll probably pick it up again tomorrow. Get to that 2,000 and all :)


Dr Grecko wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Flagged that one too loaba. Stop speaking for me, and stop claiming that my argument is one thing when it clearly is something else.

And..

Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Let me break down your arguments...
One has to appreciate the irony of someone who flags someone for the very thing they themselves do in the same post (next sentence to be exact). Hmpf!

one was being intentionally provocative and should be flagged.

when we attempt to breakdown eachother's arguments it is to illustrate our understanding of the concept, not to intentionally exaggerate to absurdity, that's not constructive.


Virgil wrote:

Countering the wizard's 10% crafting fee by charging for your actions in the party is a foolish gambit. My wizards have universally been the one in the party that did the most damage, handed out the most buffs, helped the adventure through scrying/teleporting/door-making, and if necessary could do a fair share of OoC healing thanks to UMD.

If I really wanted, my wizard could make a minion that's as powerful as you (and have, free of charge). Now that every gold that would be given to you for your sword swings can be deducted from your debt to the skeleton's punches, you can provide any normal loot you get to the wizard because of all the stuff he's doing on top of that.

Not exactly a good way to 'get back' at the supposedly greedy wizard.

I tend to make the most powerful characters in my party too, doesn't mean you'll not need them at some point. either that or you're playing with some severely unoptimized characters. if you take a decent archer, they will outdamage a wizard like no one's business in basically every way possible.

if your party isn't pulling their fair share, it is probably in your best interests to make them more competent than take the whole burden onto yourself. one unlucky roll and the whole adventure is screwed (hold person or icy prison)

but yeah, not to be a dick or anything, but this is beside the point. if you're running the whole show, it doesn't matter whether you do things one way or the other

Shadow Lodge

dragonfire8974 wrote:

I tend to make the most powerful characters in my party too, doesn't mean you'll not need them at some point. either that or you're playing with some severely unoptimized characters. if you take a decent archer, they will outdamage a wizard like no one's business in basically every way possible.

this actually is not necessarily true, i would love to see your archer attack anyone in obscuring mist, through a wall, or while in darkness. a good cleric/wizard will shut an archer down, while a mage has tools to counter those abilities.


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loaba wrote:


In-character, fee-crafting is a really good deal. Out-of-character, Free-crafting makes sense because you assume the crafter can't refuse your demands and sell the item for more.

Yes, AD, I stand by my statement. You are using the meta-game to justify the best price for your character. In doing so, you're devaluing the in-game time of the crafter PC.

Combat healing is not the same as combat crafting. In fact, there is no such thing as combat crafting.

See the difference now?

Rogue sneaks for free and he's going to do it anyway.

Are you seeing the trend yet?

So if there's no RAW, well then it must be bad-wrong for the crafter to value his time and charge for it?

The bottom line is, again AD, that you just don't want to pay the crafter more than 50%. 'Cause you're cheap and you don't recognize a good deal when you see one. :P

okay... bunch of stuff here.

assuming again that the crafter isn't grateful enough for his friends disarming/setting off traps that could have seriously ruined his day to give them things he can make at cost, or that he's just ran into a whole new group of adventurers where they really haven't been in that much danger yet together.

In-character - Fee crafting is still a good deal as you point out. but it also brings up as to how much profit one should be making on things you do to help out the other people. if the crafter says he needs a profit, why not the other guy who's researching enemies or trying to get contacts so they can sneak into the nearby castle to grab the macguffin? In character and out of character fee crafting brings up a group dynamic that can be toxic if you're not prepared to deal with it. If your group doesn't care or likes it? GOOD! have fun :)

Out of character there are rules that say you are the only one who can benefit from your craft feat in regards to wealth (this is a paraphrasing, please don't say that they meant for you to charge because you gain a wealth benefit). crafted items count as creation cost for WBL calculations, while non crafted items count as full market cost. Mistwalker has pointed out that this is RAW, and while i don't like it, it is the rules and we have to argue (again as mistwalker has pointed out) from RAW or RAI instead of from how we houserule our own games.

To complete the Above metagame-balance thought - charging allows your character to accrue wealth above the others and suppress theirs. again, if your group doesn't care, great. I always want there to be a level playing field between the characters because no one can feel cheated.

healing is more crucial when you need it than crafting, so it is more easily able to extort money. if you're down to 1hp or 1wisdom or 1str, it is pretty easy to get a high price from some of those healing spells especially if there's still combat yet to come.

the rogue can take some treasure without letting the others know and thus gain 'compensation' for his/her services. the tank/direct damage monkey gets the most screwed because their roles are straight forward. the only way they're going to get paid for their services is if they let the monsters kill their friends and loot the bodies after cleaning up. it has been made abundantly clear that no one is willing to pay for charging up into the face of death to keep it's attentions from squishies or cutting it into ribbons, so the only recourse is to strike at the moment needed, or find someone else who appreciates the labor.

this turned into a longer post than i intended....


TheSideKick wrote:
dragonfire8974 wrote:

I tend to make the most powerful characters in my party too, doesn't mean you'll not need them at some point. either that or you're playing with some severely unoptimized characters. if you take a decent archer, they will outdamage a wizard like no one's business in basically every way possible.

this actually is not necessarily true, i would love to see your archer attack anyone in obscuring mist, through a wall, or while in darkness. a good cleric/wizard will shut an archer down, while a mage has tools to counter those abilities.

well, most things aren't dangerous on the other side of a wall, but when it comes to damage potential...

seeking bow negates the obscuring mist and the darkness. but if we're going to talk PVP? it comes to who has initiative and if the wizard has time to prepare.

but if we're talking killing bad guys? archer wins

Shadow Lodge

yet again i disagree, seeking bow does not allow you to hit the target unless you know which square to hit. i never talk pvp, i talk BBEG v your archer. my point is that you cant say "archer > wizard in damage potential? because how do you rate save or die in damage? one hit kill?

also wizards have more flexability over any other class as far as having the best potential damage. you might theory craft having 150 dpr, but that dosent mean squat when the BBEG throws up a wind wall.

but anyway... we digressed the thread, back to the topic at hand. if you meta game you are in the wrong. so if you get pissy because i charge you 10% more, then you have already failed at the game imo.


TheSideKick wrote:

yet again i disagree, seeking bow does not allow you to hit the target unless you know which square to hit. i never talk pvp, i talk BBEG v your archer. my point is that you cant say "archer > wizard in damage potential? because how do you rate save or die in damage? one hit kill?

also wizards have more flexability over any other class as far as having the best potential damage. you might theory craft having 150 dpr, but that dosent mean squat when the BBEG throws up a wind wall.

but anyway... we digressed the thread, back to the topic at hand. if you meta game you are in the wrong. so if you get pissy because i charge you 10% more, then you have already failed at the game imo.

.... must... fight... urge.... to... digress....


Wow, this is a long thread. Just wanted to add my 2cp. In my groups we have often charged a small percentage over crafting costs for most items as a "general" rule, but we leave all that as just part of our overall role-playing experience. Crafting, even magic crafting, is considered part of "down-time" and while other characters make checks to create wealth or research spells or whatever, the crafting character makes an item for another character and takes the percentage as his wages for time invested.

I guess for our group it reinforces the concept that another player's character is not there for another player to abuse. My character is more than just your characters feat or item resource.

Still, for roleplaying reasons I have crafted things for players even below costs when they were necessary. Once our fighters main weapon got sundered and my crafter replaced it below cost. I've also charged extra when another player annoyed him about something. I think it was a ring of the ram, and my wizard didn't have the right pre-requisite. He bugged the wizard about it time and again. So, eventually the wizard built it for him at sale price. He got a little peeved, but the game was one where magic item availability followed the settlement rules with rolling to see if the item could be available. Afterward I said, "Dude, I am not your magic item wishing genie." I pointed the to the GM, "He is, if you want it so bad, bug him." I let him know I'd still help him make the things he needed at a discount, but I wasn't there to fulfill his every wish and munchkin fancy which is how other players start to see you.

Another story, I once had a crafting wizard I kind of enjoyed, but not very thoroughly and he got eaten in round one by a surprise assault from a dragon. Afterward, my character refused a raise, said he was enjoying the afterlife. Told the party to just split his gear which was worth more than the raise cost, and I started rolling up a new character. Still, my friend was pissed at me because I was supplying him with a lot of crafted gear for cheap. He didn't want to rely on the GM for magic items or pay the market price, and he got really upset I wasn't going to fuel his magic item needs anymore. That did teach me a lesson about how something like that can kind of mess with the group dynamic.

I guess that second story didn't really fit with my whole argument, but let me re-iterate my point. Make it about role-playing not about costs or wealth or formulae or game tables. If your characters argue about it, argue about it in character. Come to a conclusion in character. This is a game, play it.

Sovereign Court

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Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules Subscriber

Um... doesn't everyone just pool party wealth and then discuss how to spend it well?

That's what my groups have always done, and it completely destroys the OP's 'conflict' because he cannot take money from the party, nor can anyone else, instead his crafting feat would be seen as that player contributing to the 'effective' use of the party's funds.

Carefully sharing out the wealth and hoarding your portion just seems to inivite pettiness.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
VedounMar wrote:
stuff

You have apparently dismissed out of hand my arguments, stating that you have proven that my arguments are not valid, without, in my opinion proving anything.

Perhaps I am misreading your intend (happens on the internet from time to time), but your tone appears to be condesending, ignoring anything that doesn't fit your arguments, chastising me for bad grammar and throwing out strawman arguments.

Have you read the entire thread?

If you had, you should have realized that Selgard, Dragonfire8974 and Adamantine Dragon are the ones that have been leading the free crafting crowd. Selgard has posted that he is not emotionally involved in the discussion, so either Selgard is lying, or you statement that their comments were in the heat of the moment is incorrect.

My generalizaion comment is still valid, because the majority of the free crafting crowd that has posted in this thread and addressed the question have stated "craft for free or get out". Is not the basis of a generalization, that the majority does "x"?. Stating that you can make a call and have a dozen people post things/support your argument doesn't really carry any weight with me. Prove it, have them post support for the free crafting crowd and state that they are doing so because you called them, and it may carry more weight with me.

VedounMar wrote:

You've stated you need to charge a fee in order to feel appreciated. . .

You've stated no. . . its your "character" that needs to charge in order to feel appreciated

Actually, it was you who said that as a player I needed to feel appreciated, not I.

I have said that the PC should be compensated for their effort during downtime.

And that is all the time I am willing to spend on this post.


I really dont see a problem with what u did. And i dont understand what the complaint other people in this post are making. U are providing a service, at cost to ur character (loss of feats). u are charging almost half what the item costs, taking only a small portion of that money for ur income. As a wizard im guessing u spend it on some of the more expensive spell components (mithril daggers for the wreath of blades spell for example). U dont have to be the crafter, u dont have to offer that service. When i am playing a game and a player spends feats on crafting, i feel compelled to give him extra for the effort. its still less money that im paying, and he gets a benefit from taking a feat tax that he may have lost by not having another feat or multiple feats. U guys want to talk about the players doing stuff to help the group well i think part of that should be helping the crafter.


@dragonfire8974 - it really comes down this, typically the crafter PC is making magic weapon for two reasons.

1. he's making things for himself
2. he planning on offering crafting services to his party companions

Obviously there will be exceptions, but mainly those are the reasons for why the feat was chosen.

In terms of purchasing magic items, the party really only knows that you pay whatever the price is at the local magic mart. The party simply has no idea that the magic crafter is offering anything other than a good deal when he undercuts the magic mart.

It's really just that simple.

You want to know who's being rude in this thread? It's the Free Crafters and their insistence that THEY are the only market that the crafter can sell to. They're essentially advocating for holding the crafter character hostage.

"Craft for me, at the price I want! It's not like you can sell the item for more anyway."

That is such a load of crap.


dragonfire8974 wrote:

one was being intentionally provocative and should be flagged.

when we attempt to breakdown eachother's arguments it is to illustrate our understanding of the concept, not to intentionally exaggerate to absurdity, that's not constructive.

I agree in the sense that when an argument is taken to the absurd, it tends to spark an negative response in people. However, it can be constructive in the sense that some people cannot see where an argument breaks down unless it is taken to its extreme. Thats where the emotions come out and the accusations of mischaracterization comes into play.

-
I do think, that if someone is having a hard time seeing the other side of an argument, then exaggerating to the absurd can be a valuable tool.

For example, in my previous posts, I took that absurd notion that if the crafter can charge, then the healer can charge argument, and I expanded it even further. The absurd argument broke down when one realizes that if everyone charges for thier service, the charges will equal out (heal for a buff; for a disable device.. ect). Yet, the crafter will still make more because he is doing something above and beyond that of his companions.


My thoughts on the WBL complaint being raised are that arcane casters, the most common crafters, aren't actually going to have that much higher actual WBL as they tend to rely more heavily on consumables (scrolls/potions/wands) than the other classes. Over time, the person ultimately using the shiny weapons and armor that the crafters are making will still have the full value of their item. The stuff the crafters either have to make for themselves or get others to make for them will be gone after one use in most cases. Therefore, a small fee to acknowledge the crafter's time is not inappropriate, and helps keep the demands for requested items reasonable. That fee doesn't necessarily have to be gold, but there does need to be some kind of recognition that they are doing something completely optional as far as the game is concerned. Most of the examples people are using as counterarguments are not optional, they are simply expected as part of the game; that is a big difference. The recognition doesn't have to be huge; an extra 5% is going to be barely noticable to the martial fighter, and give the crafter enough gold to make a few more consumables, which tend to be the lifeblood for many of the casting classes, but not really much more beyond that.


loaba wrote:

In terms of purchasing magic items, the party really only knows that you pay whatever the price is at the local magic mart. The party simply has no idea that the magic crafter is offering anything other than a good deal when he undercuts the magic mart.

It's really just that simple.

You want to know who's being rude in this thread? It's the Free Crafters and their insistence that THEY are the only market that the crafter can sell to. They're essentially advocating for holding the crafter character hostage.

"Craft for me, at the price I want! It's not like you can sell the item for more anyway."

I just flagged you for the truth :)

-
When you craft and sell at cost, you can then realize that the market for your items just increased to the entire world. You can sell to anybody including your party. Instead of crafting for them, I may just craft for my guild instead as it would certainly be in character for me.

Now when you charge a fee, the marketplace has now dropped down to you and your adventurers. Now they take the priority.

Nothing is stopping me from crafting for someone other than my party, and I'm sure I could find a million in-char reasons to spend my time crafting for NPC's.

Toss some incentive my way, things will change.


sunshadow21 wrote:
My thoughts on the WBL complaint being raised are that arcane casters, the most common crafters, aren't actually going to have that much higher actual WBL as they tend to rely more heavily on consumables (scrolls/potions/wands) than the other classes. Over time, the person ultimately using the shiny weapons and armor that the crafters are making will still have the full value of their item.

This is another point that is getting lost in the noise. In fact, in my oft-mentioned Second Darkness campaign, where the crafter was charging Cost+25%, the crafter Wizard wasn't packing anymore treasure than anyone else. And even if he was, at the rate that the loot was pouring in, it wasn't noticeable. The guy burned a lot of resources in Teleporting us around, making magic carpets, making people Fly, giving 'em Stone Skin etc, etc.

I'm not talking theory here, kids. I played in a perfectly functional game with a Fee Crafter. I have the shirt and everything.


sunshadow21 wrote:
My thoughts on the WBL complaint being raised are that arcane casters, the most common crafters, aren't actually going to have that much higher actual WBL as they tend to rely more heavily on consumables (scrolls/potions/wands) than the other classes. Over time, the person ultimately using the shiny weapons and armor that the crafters are making will still have the full value of their item. The stuff the crafters either have to make for themselves or get others to make for them will be gone after one use in most cases. Therefore, a small fee to acknowledge the crafter's time is not inappropriate, and helps keep the demands for requested items reasonable. That fee doesn't necessarily have to be gold, but there does need to be some kind of recognition that they are doing something completely optional as far as the game is concerned. Most of the examples people are using as counterarguments are not optional, they are simply expected as part of the game; that is a big difference. The recognition doesn't have to be huge; an extra 5% is going to be barely noticable to the martial fighter, and give the crafter enough gold to make a few more consumables, which tend to be the lifeblood for many of the casting classes, but not really much more beyond that.

Everything you said here is basically the reason why I charge. I use consumeables quite a bit, and it helps out.. I also charge a minimal fee of 5% as well.. Barely noticeable considering I just increased his wealth by 45%.

.
I could see not charging if everyone pooled thier money into one giant party fund.. and the crafter made everyone what they needed, and consumeables came from that fund. In this system nothing is the individuals.. everything belongs to the group.

A group like this would almost all be Good aligned chars.. which is not how our group is at the moment.


Here's another real-life example from my current group. Last year, we absorbed two players from the GM's old group. One of the new players chose to bring in a Witch PC. Well, once the ground-bound types figured out she could do neat things like Teleport and Dimension Door, we were all like "heck yeah, game on!"

"Not so fast", she said.

The Witch player made it quite clear that she wasn't some kind of Party Taxi Service. Rather, she had her own ideas for what spells she'd like to memorize on a daily basis. She made it clear that she would consider reasonable requests, but that we (the ground-pounders) shouldn't make any assumptions.

You see my point? The Witch player wasn't being a jerk, she was standing up for the rights of her individual PC. Everyone at the table understood exactly where she coming from and there were no hard feelings.

Your PC is not a Party Tool and shouldn't be treated like one. It's the same thing with a PC who has a craft feat. They aren't a Party Resource either.


Mistwalker wrote:
VedounMar wrote:
stuff

My generalizaion comment is still valid, because the majority of the free crafting crowd that has posted in this thread and addressed the question have stated "craft for free or get out". Is not the basis of a generalization, that the majority does "x"?. Stating that you can make a call and have a dozen people post things/support your argument doesn't really carry any weight with me. Prove it, have them post support for the free crafting crowd and state that they are doing so because you called them, and it may carry more weight with me.

no more than 1/2 dozen people have said that, and when i said it, it was in jest then to illustrate to the whole, 'its what my character would do' thing cuts both ways.

I really don't mean to be a dick even though this kind of sounds prickish, but i'm not that kind of gamer who won't have fun if you don't play it my way. i'll enjoy a game because i like to game


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
So, then you have no problem if Bob picks up a sword from a slain enemy, turning around and charging Sue 10% as a "finders fee" I suppose. After all, Sue would otherwise have to pay full price at a magic shop, and Bob does have it after all. He struck the killing blow. He did the work. So Sue should pony up the extra cash. Right?
Adamantine Dragon wrote:

1. Crafters can charge party members because they provide a "discount". So do healers who charge party members. There is no difference. Crafters and healers both provide a service that is available at a standard price from a magic store.

2. Crafters can charge party members because they do their bit "out of combat" using "their own personal time". So do healers who heal properly. So do rangers who track. So do rogues who sneak.

3. Crafters can charge party members because the WBL economy allows them to. No, I've repeatedly asked for any single instance in the RAW which discusses crafters selling to party members. It doesn't. It only mentions crafters who make things only for themselves. There is no RAW that covers this issue.

None of your arguments hold up. The bottom line argument is "I took the crafting feat to make a profit from my party members because that's the ONLY IN GAME WAY to increase wealth using crafting."

Fine, go ahead and do it. But you can whine and moan all you like when I ask for 50 gold to heal you. Pay it or bleed.

The first quote and points 1 and 2 the same question, simply dressed up a bit differently. The answer is that the crafter does their part while adventuring with the party, as should everyone else in the group. Adventuring is combat, combat aftermath and traveling back and forth. If everyone starts charging for fulfilling their adventuring role, that it ends up a wash in the long run, with everyone ending up paying out what they collected.

Fee Crafter are looking to be compensated for work that they do during the downtime. The time when everyone else is goofing off, relaxing.
Argument 3: RAW also does not discuss making magic items for other party member at cost. So, if it isn't in RAW, does that mean that crafters cannot make magic items for other PCs at all?

As for the "To make a profit" comment, well, that has never been the reason that any of my crafters have taken any of the crafting feats, however, there are other ways to make a profit. There are the two traits that allow items to be made at 45% rather than 50%. The RAW on selling magic items starts with the word "generally", which to my understanding doesn't mean can only ever be sold for 50%, but rather it means that usually items are sold for 50%, but that there are/can be times when it is sold for more or less.


loaba wrote:

@dragonfire8974 - it really comes down this, typically the crafter PC is making magic weapon for two reasons.

1. he's making things for himself
2. he planning on offering crafting services to his party companions

Obviously there will be exceptions, but mainly those are the reasons for why the feat was chosen.

In terms of purchasing magic items, the party really only knows that you pay whatever the price is at the local magic mart. The party simply has no idea that the magic crafter is offering anything other than a good deal when he undercuts the magic mart.

It's really just that simple.

You want to know who's being rude in this thread? It's the Free Crafters and their insistence that THEY are the only market that the crafter can sell to. They're essentially advocating for holding the crafter character hostage.

"Craft for me, at the price I want! It's not like you can sell the item for more anyway."

That is such a load of crap.

the problem is, the crafter probably isn't the only one who handles selling loot. and probably isn't the only one with appraise. both of those ways could tell you the cost of an item. I've said before, that if i were playing a BSF (big stupid fighter, which really is my favorite character. "hey, you gonna eat that orphan?"), I certainly wouldn't know the difference. I wouldn't even be good with money so i'd probably ask one of my party members to take care of my share of the gold just for fun.

but at some point, the crafter will do something at cost or talk to someone about something at cost, or some of the other players will discuss it with an NPC. there are plenty of ways to find out IG how much things cost to make. so while i understand that everyone doesn't know inherently how much magic is worth, I would rule (as a GM) that you could figure it out with spellcraft, knowledge arcana/religion (for magical knowledge) or appraise.

i've never advocated for holding a crafter hostage. according to RAW, the only way a crafter can make a profit is by selling to the party (excluding hedge magician and any GM who allows a diplomacy check to give you a better price). that's just absurd saying we're holding the crafter hostage...


Dr Grecko wrote:
dragonfire8974 wrote:

one was being intentionally provocative and should be flagged.

when we attempt to breakdown eachother's arguments it is to illustrate our understanding of the concept, not to intentionally exaggerate to absurdity, that's not constructive.

I agree in the sense that when an argument is taken to the absurd, it tends to spark an negative response in people. However, it can be constructive in the sense that some people cannot see where an argument breaks down unless it is taken to its extreme. Thats where the emotions come out and the accusations of mischaracterization comes into play.

-
I do think, that if someone is having a hard time seeing the other side of an argument, then exaggerating to the absurd can be a valuable tool.

For example, in my previous posts, I took that absurd notion that if the crafter can charge, then the healer can charge argument, and I expanded it even further. The absurd argument broke down when one realizes that if everyone charges for thier service, the charges will equal out (heal for a buff; for a disable device.. ect). Yet, the crafter will still make more because he is doing something above and beyond that of his companions.

yes, i do agree that exaggeration can be a valuable debate tool for exactly the reason you stated, same with attempting to put the other's position in your own words. when i'm having trouble understanding, i attempt that not to put words in someone's mouth, but to see if i'm missing the point.

though in your above situation, it depends who's character's abilities are most needed at the time who will come out ahead


Dr Grecko wrote:
sunshadow21 wrote:
My thoughts on the WBL complaint being raised are that arcane casters, the most common crafters, aren't actually going to have that much higher actual WBL as they tend to rely more heavily on consumables (scrolls/potions/wands) than the other classes. Over time, the person ultimately using the shiny weapons and armor that the crafters are making will still have the full value of their item. The stuff the crafters either have to make for themselves or get others to make for them will be gone after one use in most cases. Therefore, a small fee to acknowledge the crafter's time is not inappropriate, and helps keep the demands for requested items reasonable. That fee doesn't necessarily have to be gold, but there does need to be some kind of recognition that they are doing something completely optional as far as the game is concerned. Most of the examples people are using as counterarguments are not optional, they are simply expected as part of the game; that is a big difference. The recognition doesn't have to be huge; an extra 5% is going to be barely noticable to the martial fighter, and give the crafter enough gold to make a few more consumables, which tend to be the lifeblood for many of the casting classes, but not really much more beyond that.

Everything you said here is basically the reason why I charge. I use consumeables quite a bit, and it helps out.. I also charge a minimal fee of 5% as well.. Barely noticeable considering I just increased his wealth by 45%.

.
I could see not charging if everyone pooled thier money into one giant party fund.. and the crafter made everyone what they needed, and consumeables came from that fund. In this system nothing is the individuals.. everything belongs to the group.

A group like this would almost all be Good aligned chars.. which is not how our group is at the moment.

our group pools for consumables like teleports and does free crafting because we're constantly facing 3 or 4 APL +3 monsters. nothing unites a party like the constant threat of death. we have LN, NG, CN bordering on CE, CN, and another LN. because we have all been targeted, we have to stick together or die apart. its a pretty effective party unity tool


dragonfire8974 wrote:
though in your above situation, it depends who's character's abilities are most needed at the time who will come out ahead

An excellent point. The only way to know is to actually play it out. My argument is based on an assumption that if there was no crafter in the group, the contributions over-time would equal out. Now if wizard takes some crafting feats he ends up ahead of the rest.

.
It's a reasonable assumption given the difficulties of accurately determining the true cost of party participation.


Dr Grecko wrote:
dragonfire8974 wrote:
though in your above situation, it depends who's character's abilities are most needed at the time who will come out ahead

An excellent point. The only way to know is to actually play it out. My argument is based on an assumption that if there was no crafter in the group, the contributions over-time would equal out. Now if wizard takes some crafting feats he ends up ahead of the rest.

.
It's a reasonable assumption given the difficulties of accurately determining the true cost of party participation.

BTW, i lol'd a little when you wrote "I just flagged you for the truth"

it depends what kind of game you're having. if it is a constant heartpounding combat game, the fighters and cleric are going to wind up ahead. if its a more RP heavy, then its the person with charisma and social skills. if its a normal game, there is a good chance that there would be a TPK because the wizard won't memorize battlefield control spells because someone's going to say that's not contributing, they're going to get into an argument, someone will get dominated... then there will be a good bloodbath


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Yep.. some what, 200 posts later, and the ball still hasn't been moved from the 50 yard line, by either side.

The fact guys is that we're all arguing our own opinions as though we can and should inflict them on our groups.

Its all just "how you think is the most fun way to play. Neither is right, neither is wrong.

If you think charging X% is appropriate talk to your group, get their input, act accordingly.

If you think being being charged, or charging x% is absurd, talk to your group, get their input, act accordingly.

I'm not really sure why the discussion is still going on unless its really just because everyone enjoys repeating their exact same reasonings over and over again just to hit 2000 posts.

"stealing from the party makes you a jerk"
"no it doesn't it just lets me maintain wbl"
"yeah but taking money from your party makes you a jerk, if you do it so can everyone else"
"yeah but the crafter's contribution is worth more than everyone else's so he deserves more money"
"but stealing from the party makes you a jerk"

we're just rolling through the convo over and over and over again like a broken record.

Truth:
WBL is something that the DM *should* be handling, using as a method to help make sure the party power is adequate for the CR of beasties he's throwing at them. Its not something the PC's *should* be having to even mess with.

Truth:
If the group thinks that the crafter charging for crafting shouldn't be allowed- then it isn't allowed. End of story.

Truth:
If the group thinks that the crafter charging for crafting is allowed then its allowed. End of story.

Truth:
No one person inside the group has the right to dictate terms to the group. The dictator is the person who gets "thrown out" regardless of which side of the coin they are on.

If me or AD came to a "pro fee" crowd we could either accept it and go with it, craft things ourselves, pay full price, or go home.
Harrassing and threatening the rest of the group into doing things our way would be totally inappropriate.

If Loaba or any of the others on the "pro fee" crowd came to Mine or Ad's game, you'd be expected to either accept it, craft for yourself, pay full price, or go home. Harrassing and threatening the rest of the group would be totally inappropriate.

The only people being told to get out are the folks who come into a group and want to buck and fight the group to get their own way.
-That- is inappropriate.

Regardless of which side you are on, you *have* to be considerate of the wishes of your group. Discuss it. Then be polite, be respectful, and get on with the game.

-S


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
dragonfire8974 wrote:

no more than 1/2 dozen people have said that, and when i said it, it was in jest then to illustrate to the whole, 'its what my character would do' thing cuts both ways.

I really don't mean to be a dick even though this kind of sounds prickish, but i'm not that kind of gamer who won't have fun if you don't play it my way. i'll enjoy a game because i like to game

The fee crafters had asked a few times that if the crafter took the feat and only crafted for themselve, would they object. The half dozen or so free crafters that responded said that they would, that they would ask drop the crafter PC, and those are the only ones that I recall addressing the question at all. So, to me, that means that in general, the free crafters will drop the crafter if they do not craft at cost. I have no problem accepting that in your case it was in jest, but that still leaves the others.

I didn't take you to be a "dick" or "prick". Engaged and passionate about the subject, yes.

The biggest frustration that I have had in this thread is/was the derogatory terms towards the fee crafting crowd. When this was brought up pages ago, most of you moderated your terms, which was appreciated.

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