Creating magical item for the party + small fee on the work = players uprorar?


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Suzaku wrote:
Humphrey Boggard wrote:
shallowsoul wrote:

Not sure why this argument is still going on but I think people need to just agree to disagree and file this as a per group decision.

Weren't you the guy who started the "Why all the fighter hate?" thread? You of all people should know why this argument must go on and on and on.

Incidentally, congratulations everyone! Today we've surpassed the "Why all the fighter hate?" thread in terms of number of posts. Keep up the good work, we'll be at 2K posts soon and are still on schedule for 80K posts by Christmas!

Hey the fighter can spend two feats and become the crafter. So it's not limited to casters.

Fighters will never be the crafter because Master Craftsman is a trap, and doesn't let you make many magic items at all.


How has this thread not been moved to general discussion yet... Or just a trash can would suffice.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Khrysaor wrote:
How has this thread not been moved to general discussion yet... Or just a trash can would suffice.

Because we are going for 2000+ posts

:)

Thank you for helping with that


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
VedounMar wrote:
So if your invented personality demands fees, you can just as easily invent a personality that doesn't. Unless of course you're moving goalposts again.

Hmm, sounds a bit like you are telling me how to play my character.

Moving the goal posts? Hardly. I have maintained a consistent argument throughout the whole thread. The crafter should be recompensed for their time for crafting during downtime. The crafter is being asked to use their vacation time to do free work for the group - how many people do you know in the real world who do that?

Not every character personality has to be three musketeer like, one for all and all for one. Some groups will have some internal rivalry and not want to do things for the others when they are off duty - they may loath them, but work well with them in the interest of the job (saving the world, the village, stopping X, etc..).

VedounMar wrote:
That paragraph is a hodgepodge of "?!".

It was to address the various points that you raised in your preceding post.

VedounMar wrote:
If the GM is ignoring WBL then my statement that WBL is meaningless is even more true

I disagree. WBL is part of what is used to set the difficulty of the encounters - especially for published adventures. If WBL get's out of whack in a big way, then some PCs will sail throught the encounters and others will either have a lot of trouble or die. If that happens encounter after encounter, then likely as a player, I am not having as much fun (arguably from either side, too easy - bored, too hard - frustrated).

VedounMar wrote:
As to the "Craft for free or get out" comment, you are making two major mistakes with it. One, as someone who is advocating the free position I haven't said anything like that, so the generalization is false and rather insulting.

No insult was intended. I refered to the free crafting crowd as a whole, not you personally. Yes, it is a generalization, but accurate so far. You are only recently joined to the discussion, and may not have read all the posts. Adamantine Dragon, Selgard, Shifty, and I believe Dragonfire8974 have all stated that if the crafter won't craft for the group for free, then they would drop that PC and get someone who would. There were others, but I didn't bother to record their names.

VedounMar wrote:
My point has no demands involved. My argument is from a simple min-max position.

Not everyone plays with a min-max approach. Not every element has to be the optimized element.

Making the group stonger while making yourself less strong reduces your survival chances as the group will be facing more challenging encounters, which you will have less chance of surviving.

VedounMar wrote:
And if you're functioning as a unit the money should be in a pool anyway, thus making the collection even more absurd (as the "fee" would simply wind up back in the party's resource pool). . . a Pool which, for the crafter, quickly becomes your responsibility to oversee anyway, as you are the one who uses it most.

Not all groups operate that way. In fact, I haven't seen a single group operate that way. I know that they exist, as both you and Selgard have pointed out that your groups work that way.

The groups that I have seen do have a party pool, to cover group expenses like lodging and food while out on adventure, or healing wands, etc.. But at the appropriate points on the adventure, the party pool is split amongst the party (with some left in the party pool, but not a lot), so that each does what they prefer with their gold.

Hmm, if all the gold goes back into the party resources, then why object if there is a fee? Isn't that just raising animosity in the group for no reason?

VedounMar wrote:
Or you can charge a fee.

Not sure if that is a backhanded insult or just ironic. You spent a lot of words explaining your point of view, saying how it was the better approach, then say a six word line to represent the other side of the argument.

Liberty's Edge

I think we need an FAQ for this thread alone.


Stupid question:

What happens when a crafting role is botched and a cursed item is created.

Who pays for it?


Franko a wrote:

Stupid question:

What happens when a crafting role is botched and a cursed item is created.

Who pays for it?

Unfortunately, the FAQ about the crafting rules states you can take 10 on the roll, so basically anyone can make basically anything without a roll at all.

Makes you wonder how someone could have crafted a +1 cursed sword. Their stats must have been terrible.


beej67 wrote:
Franko a wrote:

Stupid question:

What happens when a crafting role is botched and a cursed item is created.

Who pays for it?

Unfortunately, the FAQ about the crafting rules states you can take 10 on the roll, so basically anyone can make basically anything without a roll at all.

Makes you wonder how someone could have crafted a +1 cursed sword. Their stats must have been terrible.

Perhaps a crafters apprentice decided to try to make something while the crafter was away to try an increase his own skill...

If he was sick, rushing the job, level 1 and had a low enough int and spellcraft skill... It could happen.

Rushing and him not bieng a CL3 nets a +10 to the check right there for a base 15DC to make the item.. -2 from sickened and a base 14 int with only a +4 in spellcraft, and there you have it.. Crafter nets only a +4 to his check, making taking 10 impossible - Rolls the dice and, bam, a cursed +1 sword :)

*edit* of course to even take craft arms and armor, you'd need to be CL5 so this wouldnt work


So like I said, basically impossible. :)


Ashiel wrote:
Fighters will never be the crafter because Master Craftsman is a trap, and doesn't let you make many magic items at all.

I don't see it as a trap.. I think it would be a fun concept for a fighter who creates his own magic armor and weapons. I'd probably let the casters handle the wonderous items though.

*edit* fixed end qoute.


WWWW wrote:
dragonfire8974 wrote:
crafters aren't weak. even if they craft for the whole party, they don't end up being weak, at least from my experience. but again, if the GM balances the challenges, then would you rather gain levels faster than slower? as that's what the GM is doing when he rebalances the challenges.
Eh if the DM is rebalencing challenges properly you should not gain levels any faster or slower since the increased challenge is balanced by the increased power of the party members.

but with higher encounter level with reference to the party does equal more experience. so if the DM is rebalancing with stronger monsters, that equals more experience


lastblacknight wrote:

Also on WBL; if one sells an item at half cost (say 2,000) and makes a new item at half cost (2,000) where is the disparity? The math is remarkably simple granted it's different if it is starting gold Basically crafting lets you sell the +1 Sword and make something useful in it's place for half it's worth.

To answer the question; Selling an item and then turning around and making something else for the same price isn't where the disparity happens. The disparity happens when the crafter makes something for 2,000 that would usually be bought for 4,000.

The crafter has effectively increased his wealth by 2,000gp.

Now the FAQ has stated that this is by design, so the disparity is indeed supposed to be there. I don't like the disparity, but I would also like to get some personal benifit from the feat. Thats why the fee crafters charge the party for crafting. To maintain the intent behind the design.

20% seems to be about right for a 4 member party according to some people who have thrown some math around here. However, I like to be on the low side.. I only charge 5% for a 5 member party. Because in the end, it's still a group game.


beej67 wrote:
So like I said, basically impossible. :)

I'd like to meet the crafter who could curse a +1 sword. Perhaps a Troll crafter with the int of a grapefruit?


gnomersy wrote:
dragonfire8974 wrote:
-

If feats aren't important than they're just as unimportant to the rest of the party so they can feel free to get crafting too. I think anyone you ask would tell you that feats are important that they're powerful and that many character concepts would be impossible without them it's a significant investment to take feats particularly if those feats do nothing for you or actually make you weaker and I can't see a reason to take the feats if they aren't going to have any benefit for me.

Also OOC why would I possibly care if I gain levels faster or slower? I play because it's fun with my friends when we hit max level and end the game we'll start a new one again because it's fun so why exactly do I want to end a campaign sooner?

you do gain a benefit, but if you don't think you gain a benefit from crafting for your friends i don't think you need to keep in this discussion. the MOST IMPORTANT thing in pathfinder is action economy. the SECOND most important thing is wealth. crafting gives you a huge benefit, and are you now arguing it doesn't? no offense intended but i'm done... I can't argue with someone who has a fundamental disagreement about the usefulness of crafting


Dr Grecko wrote:
lastblacknight wrote:

Also on WBL; if one sells an item at half cost (say 2,000) and makes a new item at half cost (2,000) where is the disparity? The math is remarkably simple granted it's different if it is starting gold Basically crafting lets you sell the +1 Sword and make something useful in it's place for half it's worth.

To answer the question; Selling an item and then turning around and making something else for the same price isn't where the disparity happens. The disparity happens when the crafter makes something for 2,000 that would usually be bought for 4,000.

The crafter has effectively increased his wealth by 2,000gp.

Now the FAQ has stated that this is by design, so the disparity is indeed supposed to be there. I don't like the disparity, but I would also like to get some personal benifit from the feat. Thats why the fee crafters charge the party for crafting. To maintain the intent behind the design.

20% seems to be about right for a 4 member party according to some people who have thrown some math around here. However, I like to be on the low side.. I only charge 5% for a 5 member party. Because in the end, it's still a group game.

.... I really don't like that FAQ ruling...


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
dragonfire8974 wrote:
.... I really don't like that FAQ ruling...

But it is RAW.

Not using it is a houserule. NOthing wrong with houserules, but they are not RAW


Ashiel wrote:
Suzaku wrote:
Humphrey Boggard wrote:
shallowsoul wrote:

Not sure why this argument is still going on but I think people need to just agree to disagree and file this as a per group decision.

Weren't you the guy who started the "Why all the fighter hate?" thread? You of all people should know why this argument must go on and on and on.

Incidentally, congratulations everyone! Today we've surpassed the "Why all the fighter hate?" thread in terms of number of posts. Keep up the good work, we'll be at 2K posts soon and are still on schedule for 80K posts by Christmas!

Hey the fighter can spend two feats and become the crafter. So it's not limited to casters.
Fighters will never be the crafter because Master Craftsman is a trap, and doesn't let you make many magic items at all.

except for the fighter crafter i've been playing...

a blacksmith farmer's son who has taken up adventuring


Mistwalker wrote:
dragonfire8974 wrote:
.... I really don't like that FAQ ruling...

But it is RAW.

Not using it is a houserule. NOthing wrong with houserules, but they are not RAW

I know, i just don't like the ruling


dragonfire8974 wrote:

you do gain a benefit, but if you don't think you gain a benefit from crafting for your friends i don't think you need to keep in this discussion. the MOST IMPORTANT thing in pathfinder is action economy. the SECOND most important thing is wealth. crafting gives you a huge benefit, and are you now arguing it doesn't? no offense intended but i'm done... I can't argue with someone who has a fundamental disagreement about the usefulness of crafting

I don't disagree on it's usefulness I'm just disagreeing on whether you can maintain those uses while spreading the benefits, you insist that somehow you do when the logical result is that you don't. But if you're done that's cool.

I don't think my -character- benefits from crafting for my friends and the fact is that it's true and action economy is well and good but if you don't understand the basic logic I've presented about how relativistic wealth increase/decrease affects the party and the crafter, well maybe it's time for you to leave the discussion too.


dragonfire8974 wrote:
.... I really don't like that FAQ ruling...

To tell the truth, I don't really like it either. It's a group game and I enjoy playing as a group. I craft for fee because of 2 reasons.

..
1) Like the OP, I'm also playing a Crafting Mage of Abadar in a Kingmaker campaign, which gives me an in-game reason to charge.

And..

2) I dont charge for consumeables, so I need to make up a little of my lost gold that the party doesn't realize I spend for them.

I charge for those two reasons only.. Take away those 2 reasons and I'd likely do it for free.


dragonfire8974 wrote:
you do gain a benefit, but if you don't think you gain a benefit from crafting for your friends i don't think you need to keep in this discussion. the MOST IMPORTANT thing in pathfinder is action economy. the SECOND most important thing is wealth. crafting gives you a huge benefit, and are you now arguing it doesn't? no offense intended but i'm done... I can't argue with someone who has a fundamental disagreement about the usefulness of crafting

The way I've been doing it is making a distinction between direct/indirect benefits. Something that the party can use, like a wand of haste, benefits all. The Group all chips in and its crafted at cost.

-
Now mr fighter wants to make his +1 sword to a +2. I charge, because its not a direct benefit to the group. Its a direct benefit to the fighter, but an indirect to the group.

*edit* one of these days I'll stop spelling Benefit as Benifit. ;)


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
dragonfire8974 wrote:

Lets see if i can address everything

for a team you don't want stronger, then you don't have to craft for them. if you craft for all of them, each can benefit from the crafting feat. but the operative word is can. if you don't like your team, then you can have them buy their stuff from someone else, there's lots of good excuses as to why you can't craft for them.

according to the FAQ, the only benefit your party is supposed to get is the custom items, no WBL benefit. but if you selectively apply the crafted items should be included in WBL at cost, then you can have the math add up anyway you want it to.

your adventuring party being stronger is a benefit for the crafter, not just for the other party members unless there's PvP, because everyone is able to pull more weight. the benefit to the crafter from a stronger party is the ability to take on stronger challenges, thus gaining more wealth and power for him/herself.

fee crafters can do what they want. if its cool with your players, have fun! as long as your gamers like it, then go for it. but it is dipping into the loot, and charging your other characters for using a feat, no matter if it takes up your character's time, like charging people extra for rez or anything else that takes a lot of time. downtime is handwaved anyways. Everyone contributes, and even if crafting is by far the most powerful feat in the game no matter how you interpret it, we don't tend to split loot based on how much someone contributes. unless you support that, which is fine, i just wouldn't play that way.

Did i address everything?

It is less about wanting the team weaker, as not being the weak link in the team because crafting feats were chosen.

If you have two identical spellcasters, but one takes Toughness and one takes Craft Wondrous, and you also give them the same magic items because the crafter is crafting for free, then the spellcaster that took toughness will do better in fights, be able to last longer and live longer too.

If the crafter charges a small fee, then they have a chance of balancing themselves against the other spellcaster, by crafting an additional item that will help them in combat, like an amulet of armor or a cloak of displacement. That is what I believe the feat does and what SKR was trying to get across with the FAQ.

So free crafting has made the party stronger, but not the crafter. So the crafter is now more at risk while adventuring. Stronger encounters to challenge the rest of the party will be more dangerous to the crafter.

I don't see the fee as dipping into the loot/into team pockets/etc.. but as a way of stopping the rest of the team from dipping into the crafter's pockets.

Not all downtime is handwaved in all groups. Nor are the event's during that handwaving consequence free to the PC or party.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

One way to resolve the problem could be for all the party members to take a crafting feat. Service rendered for service rendered and no fees charged (or if they are, it becomes a wash in the long run).

This way, everyone is equally "gimped" and has one of the "most powerful feats" in the game.

:)


Mistwalker wrote:
VedounMar wrote:
So if your invented personality demands fees, you can just as easily invent a personality that doesn't. Unless of course you're moving goalposts again.

Hmm, sounds a bit like you are telling me how to play my character....

I think he's saying that there are other RP forms of 'payment.' you don't need to charge money, especially if you're in a group that doesn't like the concept of paying to craft. but that's a group dynamic thing, and i'm not going there

Wealth should be a factor in how encounters are built, but show me a GM that knows exactly how much wealth the party has and then designs the encounter, and i'll show you a GM that has recently done an audit, or has players that tend to write down more items on their sheet then they get.

crafters who charge do get extra WBL. in the math you showed me, the party would have about 1/2 the wealth because crafted items count as 1/2 when it comes to WBL.

I did say that i'd kill the crafter under some circumstances where the crafter's death would benefit my character, or satisfy him in some regard. But that would be if we were playing one of those competitive games where the party isn't three-musketeery. if i don't like the crafter charging and everyone else does, i'll make my own crafter. I love crafting

did i mention i love crafting? cause i really love crafting

and I don't know where you're getting that crafting makes you less strong somehow. even if you craft all wealth for everyone in the group, that doesn't make you less strong than any of them, it makes them stronger.

example: sir phillip and his buddy ortho have been travelling and fighting together. sir phillip notices that ortho's sword isn't as good as it could be and ortho has money. phillip creates a new sword for ortho with that money and now ortho can cleave things a little better than phillip can. that's okay because phillip is a trip build and they both have paired opportunist causing their storm of attacks of opportunity just that much more effective and them to become a fighting force our GM now fears


Taking 10 percent profit is like an investment for the group, you have to show the returns on such an investment to keep the groups interest. Just stating you are taking 10 percent based on an organizational belief will not fly with most players, if you do not take the effort to explain how is benefits the group.


Mistwalker wrote:

One way to resolve the problem could be for all the party members to take a crafting feat. Service rendered for service rendered and no fees charged (or if they are, it becomes a wash in the long run).

This way, everyone is equally "gimped" and has one of the "most powerful feats" in the game.

:)

We did this in our recent game. until i got followers and cohorts :) now i do all the crafting for everyone


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Dr Grecko wrote:
dragonfire8974 wrote:
.... I really don't like that FAQ ruling...

To tell the truth, I don't really like it either. It's a group game and I enjoy playing as a group. I craft for fee because of 2 reasons.

..
1) Like the OP, I'm also playing a Crafting Mage of Abadar in a Kingmaker campaign, which gives me an in-game reason to charge.

And..

2) I dont charge for consumeables, so I need to make up a little of my lost gold that the party doesn't realize I spend for them.

I charge for those two reasons only.. Take away those 2 reasons and I'd likely do it for free.

When I play a crafter I usually charge a token fee, which can be countered by rendering my crafter a service for the other PC's magic items. Like Dr Grecko, I don't charge for consumables (unless I feel they are being abused).

The exception is if the other PC has irritated my PC, then the fee is higher. :)


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
dragonfire8974 wrote:
I know, i just don't like the ruling

I am indifferent to it, neither liking nor disliking it. To me it was a clarification.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
dragonfire8974 wrote:
and I don't know where you're getting that crafting makes you less strong somehow. even if you craft all wealth for everyone in the group, that doesn't make you less strong than any of them, it makes them stronger.

If you make everyone else in the group stronger but for yourself, it can be argued that you made yourself weaker.


dragonfire8974 wrote:

and I don't know where you're getting that crafting makes you less strong somehow. even if you craft all wealth for everyone in the group, that doesn't make you less strong than any of them, it makes them stronger.

Okay once more into the breach.

If you start at A=B=C=D
then you go A=A0+10 & B=B0+10 & C=C0+10 & D=D0

can you see how D=A-10? and therefore A=B=C>D?

If you can get all of that and you replace A through D with players you should see how increasing the power of everyone else means you're weaker than them.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Uchawi wrote:
Taking 10 percent profit is like an investment for the group, you have to show the returns on such an investment to keep the groups interest. Just stating you are taking 10 percent based on an organizational belief will not fly with most players, if you do not take the effort to explain how is benefits the group.

I am not quite sure what you are saying here.

That charging a 10% fee should lead to a benefit for the group? If so, doesn't the crafter being a stronger PC benefit the group?


Mistwalker wrote:
dragonfire8974 wrote:

Lets see if i can address everything

for a team you don't want stronger, then you don't have to craft for them. if you craft for all of them, each can benefit from the crafting feat. but the operative word is can. if you don't like your team, then you can have them buy their stuff from someone else, there's lots of good excuses as to why you can't craft for them.

according to the FAQ, the only benefit your party is supposed to get is the custom items, no WBL benefit. but if you selectively apply the crafted items should be included in WBL at cost, then you can have the math add up anyway you want it to.

your adventuring party being stronger is a benefit for the crafter, not just for the other party members unless there's PvP, because everyone is able to pull more weight. the benefit to the crafter from a stronger party is the ability to take on stronger challenges, thus gaining more wealth and power for him/herself.

fee crafters can do what they want. if its cool with your players, have fun! as long as your gamers like it, then go for it. but it is dipping into the loot, and charging your other characters for using a feat, no matter if it takes up your character's time, like charging people extra for rez or anything else that takes a lot of time. downtime is handwaved anyways. Everyone contributes, and even if crafting is by far the most powerful feat in the game no matter how you interpret it, we don't tend to split loot based on how much someone contributes. unless you support that, which is fine, i just wouldn't play that way.

Did i address everything?

It is less about wanting the team weaker, as not being the weak link in the team because crafting feats were chosen.

If you have two identical spellcasters, but one takes Toughness and one takes Craft Wondrous, and you also give them the same magic items because the crafter is crafting for free, then the spellcaster that took toughness will do better in fights, be able to last longer and live longer too.

...

argh! internets ate a long post i had.... it will be a bit before i am willing to retype that


gnomersy wrote:
dragonfire8974 wrote:

and I don't know where you're getting that crafting makes you less strong somehow. even if you craft all wealth for everyone in the group, that doesn't make you less strong than any of them, it makes them stronger.

Okay once more into the breach.

If you start at A=B=C=D
then you go A=A0+10 & B=B0+10 & C=C0+10 & D=D0

can you see how D=A-10? and therefore A=B=C>D?

If you can get all of that and you replace A through D with players you should see how increasing the power of everyone else means you're weaker than them.

there's an error in your math, everyone gets the same powerup by the crafter taking 1 feat. but that's just how I play, and it is not RAW that everyone can get the same benefit.

crafter is not weaker, everyone else is stronger. And if we're going to start arguing now about the GM negating every bonus you'd give the party, that's a completely different can of snakes


Mistwalker wrote:
Uchawi wrote:
Taking 10 percent profit is like an investment for the group, you have to show the returns on such an investment to keep the groups interest. Just stating you are taking 10 percent based on an organizational belief will not fly with most players, if you do not take the effort to explain how is benefits the group.

I am not quite sure what you are saying here.

That charging a 10% fee should lead to a benefit for the group? If so, doesn't the crafter being a stronger PC benefit the group?

well, if you give the crafter all the wealth, isn't that better because he's much stronger now?

action economy is my answer to that. you need 5 people doing strong actions instead of 1 character doing very strong actions


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
dragonfire8974 wrote:
Mistwalker wrote:
Uchawi wrote:
Taking 10 percent profit is like an investment for the group, you have to show the returns on such an investment to keep the groups interest. Just stating you are taking 10 percent based on an organizational belief will not fly with most players, if you do not take the effort to explain how is benefits the group.

I am not quite sure what you are saying here.

That charging a 10% fee should lead to a benefit for the group? If so, doesn't the crafter being a stronger PC benefit the group?

well, if you give the crafter all the wealth, isn't that better because he's much stronger now?

action economy is my answer to that. you need 5 people doing strong actions instead of 1 character doing very strong actions

You make it sound like it a very large increase in wealth, when it is not. But I believe that the increase in wealth/magic items craft will put the crafter back on par with the rest of the group, as strong as they are.


dragonfire8974 wrote:


there's an error in your math, everyone gets the same powerup by the crafter taking 1 feat. but that's just how I play, and it is not RAW that everyone can get the same benefit.

crafter is not weaker, everyone else is stronger. And if we're going to start arguing now about the GM negating every bonus you'd give the party, that's a completely different can of snakes

You could say that but it's not quite true, if you follow the RAW the fee is an easy and simple way to maintain appropriate balance I was pointing out the case specific to you not the RAW case because I feel if you can't acknowledge that the fee is the easiest way to deal with the RAW there's nothing more I can say.

And at the end it doesn't matter if you write it as A=D+10 or D=A-10 because A>D remains true relative weakness is weakness and relative strength is strength because that's how the system works.

And I don't know what kind of GM doesn't counter your bonuses? You mean yours lets you build a trip fighter then never has you run into an ooze or something with high CMD or whatever and just lets you cakewalk for the rest of the game?

EDIT: I forgot to mention the 10 in this case is the feat or feats the crafter has not taken instead of crafting.

Silver Crusade

Here is the way I see it.

I can almost bet you anything that the people who have a problem with the caster charging anything are people who probably play int he types of campaigns where the DM has the world cry to a halt and the time factor is handwaved.

For example. The party has just finished the dungeon and they have some gold to spend. Well the crafter says he can create items at a cheaper cost and offers to make them. Well the DM just says "Okay guys, just tell the crafter what you want, subtract your gold and boom it happens."

One of the restrictions on magic items has just been bypassed by the DM with a simple handwave. This is also another reason why there needs to be something else in place when creating magic items besides gold and time.

To these kinds of people, the craft feats have been dumbed down to be equal to every other feat because the crafter doesn't have to worry about losing any time.


shallowsoul wrote:
the craft feats have been dumbed down to be equal to every other feat because the crafter doesn't have to worry about losing any time.

Kingmaker is the perfect AP for the crafting PC. I don't want to spoil the it for anyone, so I'm not going to elaborate. Suffice it to say that lots of down-time is highly possible.


loaba wrote:
shallowsoul wrote:
the craft feats have been dumbed down to be equal to every other feat because the crafter doesn't have to worry about losing any time.
Kingmaker is the perfect AP for the crafting PC. I don't want to spoil the it for anyone, so I'm not going to elaborate. Suffice it to say that lots of down-time is highly possible.

Agreed. I can see time being an issue in certain campaigns, but in Kingmaker the crafter ends up with a boat load of time on his hands for crafting. I'm considering expanding my crafting to Golems just for the fun of it :)


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I LOVE THE NEW FAQ RULING!

It validated the playstyle we've been using (and have been persecuted for using) for years. Now I finally get to point at you naysayers and say "neener neener." :D

(Serious.)

Dr Grecko wrote:
beej67 wrote:
So like I said, basically impossible. :)
I'd like to meet the crafter who could curse a +1 sword. Perhaps a Troll crafter with the int of a grapefruit?

All you have to be is a person without the proper training. Ending up with a cursed weapon in such a case can be really easy. For example, take a farm boy who suddenly realized he has the blood of a dragon in his veins when sorcerous abilities make themselves manifest during his coming of age celebration. Such a character would not likely have ranks in Spellcraft or a high intelligence. Woe to anyone who uses a magic item he makes!

I've played a number of bards, magi, sorcerers, and summoners without ranks in Spellcraft. I imagine placing the ranks elsewhere is more common than people think.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

259 posts to go!

Silver Crusade

loaba wrote:
shallowsoul wrote:
the craft feats have been dumbed down to be equal to every other feat because the crafter doesn't have to worry about losing any time.
Kingmaker is the perfect AP for the crafting PC. I don't want to spoil the it for anyone, so I'm not going to elaborate. Suffice it to say that lots of down-time is highly possible.

Well I wasn't really talking about time in that regard. I was talking about the DM just handwaving time as if the "pause" button was pressed, the crafting takes place and then the game resumes. That style pretty much removes the crafter's bargaining chip because he can't say he wants to be paid 10% extra for his time spent.


Ravingdork wrote:

I LOVE THE NEW FAQ RULING!

It validated the playstyle we've been using (and have been persecuted for using) for years. Now I finally get to point at you naysayers and say "neener neener." :D

grrrr.... (j/K)


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
shallowsoul wrote:
loaba wrote:
shallowsoul wrote:
the craft feats have been dumbed down to be equal to every other feat because the crafter doesn't have to worry about losing any time.
Kingmaker is the perfect AP for the crafting PC. I don't want to spoil the it for anyone, so I'm not going to elaborate. Suffice it to say that lots of down-time is highly possible.
Well I wasn't really talking about time in that regard. I was talking about the DM just handwaving time as if the "pause" button was pressed, the crafting takes place and then the game resumes. That style pretty much removes the crafter's bargaining chip because he can't say he wants to be paid 10% extra for his time spent.

I'm not sure about not wanting the time spent paid for even if the time is handwaved. Long sea trips or land trips are often handwaved (with a possible few lively spots) and if the PCs are guards, they expect to get paid for the full trip, not just the few minutes of combat that weren't handwaved.


gnomersy wrote:
dragonfire8974 wrote:

you do gain a benefit, but if you don't think you gain a benefit from crafting for your friends i don't think you need to keep in this discussion. the MOST IMPORTANT thing in pathfinder is action economy. the SECOND most important thing is wealth. crafting gives you a huge benefit, and are you now arguing it doesn't? no offense intended but i'm done... I can't argue with someone who has a fundamental disagreement about the usefulness of crafting

I don't disagree on it's usefulness I'm just disagreeing on whether you can maintain those uses while spreading the benefits, you insist that somehow you do when the logical result is that you don't. But if you're done that's cool.

I don't think my -character- benefits from crafting for my friends and the fact is that it's true and action economy is well and good but if you don't understand the basic logic I've presented about how relativistic wealth increase/decrease affects the party and the crafter, well maybe it's time for you to leave the discussion too.

yep, we have a fundamental disagreement. I didn't mean to sound rude if I did


Mistwalker wrote:

It is less about wanting the team weaker, as not being the weak link in the team because crafting feats were chosen.

If you have two identical spellcasters, but one takes Toughness and one takes Craft Wondrous, and you also give them the same magic items because the crafter is crafting for free, then the spellcaster that took toughness will do better in fights, be able to last longer and live longer too.

If the crafter charges a small fee, then they have a chance of balancing themselves against the other spellcaster, by crafting an additional item that will help them in combat, like an amulet of armor or a cloak of displacement. That is what I believe the feat does and what SKR was trying to get across with the FAQ.

So free crafting has made the party stronger, but not the crafter. So the crafter is now more at risk while adventuring. Stronger encounters to challenge the rest of the party will be more dangerous to the crafter.

I don't see the fee as dipping into the loot/into team pockets/etc.. but as a way of stopping the rest of the team from dipping into the crafter's pockets.

Not all downtime is handwaved in all groups. Nor are the event's during that handwaving consequence free to the PC or party.

okay, attempt 2.

I understand that feats are important. I am currently working on a build of a high level air mage and i have 4 item creation feats. 1 is cause of concept, and the other 3 because they're just too strong to not have. it is kinda painful when I don't have the elemental substitutions i want, and other metamagic feats that i really enjoy, but looking at the character, any less effective wealth, and I would drop in effectiveness a load. (wow, does that sound like feces to anyone else?)

2nd, i'm pretty sure the FAQ says that crafted items count at 1/2 wealth for WBL calculations. I don't remember if it says for the crafter or not full disclosure. i'll look for it later

3rd, the other party members that don't need the feats do get to shine a little more in combat, but if no one had the feats, the whole party would shine less, but that's if your GM allows your group to benefit from your crafting feat. But i don't see that as a problem, because i like giving other people the spotlight. not meaning to imply that other people don't, I just happen to be a veteran at a table where there are few others. I enjoy thrusting the newer or other players into the forefront. Even if we're in an evil game where the other players could backstab me, i think it would be more fun to let them do it and say, "why? i trusted you..." as i die.

I don't see any group playing out the day to day activities of their characters over a week, maybe a day, but not for much longer. GMs I know say, "what are you doing?" and then we RP important events or if the players want something lax we can throw a party or sit at a bar and RP that


Mistwalker wrote:
dragonfire8974 wrote:
Mistwalker wrote:
Uchawi wrote:
Taking 10 percent profit is like an investment for the group, you have to show the returns on such an investment to keep the groups interest. Just stating you are taking 10 percent based on an organizational belief will not fly with most players, if you do not take the effort to explain how is benefits the group.

I am not quite sure what you are saying here.

That charging a 10% fee should lead to a benefit for the group? If so, doesn't the crafter being a stronger PC benefit the group?

well, if you give the crafter all the wealth, isn't that better because he's much stronger now?

action economy is my answer to that. you need 5 people doing strong actions instead of 1 character doing very strong actions

You make it sound like it a very large increase in wealth, when it is not. But I believe that the increase in wealth/magic items craft will put the crafter back on par with the rest of the group, as strong as they are.

it depends at what level. craft rod, at its level, can equal out that metamagic feat. craft wonderous items can equal out toughness almost when you get it.

craft wand isn't worth it (as i think selgard put it: it is like balling up loot and throwing it at a target).

now as you level up and you have more wealth feats do become less replaceable, but their bonuses become less consequential. especially when you have untyped bonuses like orange prism ioun stones


Ravingdork wrote:

All you have to be is a person without the proper training. Ending up with a cursed weapon in such a case can be really easy. For example, take a farm boy who suddenly realized he has the blood of a dragon in his veins when sorcerous abilities make themselves manifest during his coming of age celebration. Such a character would not likely have ranks in Spellcraft or a high intelligence. Woe to anyone who uses a magic item he makes!

I've played a number of bards, magi, sorcerers, and summoners without ranks in Spellcraft. I imagine placing the ranks elsewhere is more common than people think.

Just found out you can use Spellcraft untrained, so that changes how I look at this. So I guess after you can get the feat at level 5 CL, the DC for a +1 is 8 (5+[3 x bonus]).. 13 if you rush.

-
So all it would take is someone below 16 int to no longer be able to take 10, provided they are rushing and have no Spellcraft ranks.

Someone with a 6 int could still take 10 to make a DC8 if they werent rushing.

So under ideal conditions: 5 int or lower has to roll his check to create a +1 weapon.

Grand Lodge

Wow this thread has gotten long.

I skipped many pages I admit but...

Bob Sue Kathy and Bill. Your average party.

Bill receives some training and can make a flashlight for $20 after a stop at Johns Light shop for parts.

Bob Sue and Kathy can either buy the flashlight from Bill for $22 ($20 + 10% or $2 for his time) or go to the local adventure-mart and buy it for $40.

What is the discussion?

That Bill should sell it to them for $20 because he made it himself? You still saved $18 why are you complaining? And what do you say to John? He is an even bigger jerk because he must have read some rulebook to a GAME that said he had to sell at fixed price even if he was "some kind of special" who could blow on dust-bunnies and make batteries at no cost. Bill still has to pay full battery price? Wow that John is sure a jerk.

That would be my response to what I read skipping pages.


dragonfire8974 wrote:
WWWW wrote:
dragonfire8974 wrote:
crafters aren't weak. even if they craft for the whole party, they don't end up being weak, at least from my experience. but again, if the GM balances the challenges, then would you rather gain levels faster than slower? as that's what the GM is doing when he rebalances the challenges.
Eh if the DM is rebalencing challenges properly you should not gain levels any faster or slower since the increased challenge is balanced by the increased power of the party members.
but with higher encounter level with reference to the party does equal more experience. so if the DM is rebalancing with stronger monsters, that equals more experience

That is not proper rebalancing I would say. If there is some abnormal situation making the group much stronger then they should be all challenges are comparatively less of a challenge and should be counted as lower for both encounter level and XP.

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