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Creating magical item for the party + small fee on the work = players uprorar?


Advice

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Mistwalker wrote:
Selgard wrote:

You go out, you roll a bad guy, he has say 6000 gold.

We split it 6 ways. everyone gets 1k.
One guy says 'waaaait a minute Ranger. I'll take 200 of that, because I did something you can't do'.
Or maybe its the cleric. "hey wait a minute, i cast Heal onthe Fighter, i want my CL*SL*10! (or 500) gold from him!
(CL 10 5th levle spell *10 I think is the formula?)

But the crafter isn't doing that. The crafter only asks for gold when one of the others comes and sees them to request that they spend some of their downtime making an item for them. The crafter doesn't chase the other PCs to force items on them.

Except for one problem: No one is asking the crafter to spend the crafter's down time to do anything.

They are asking you to use some of the group's down time to do things. You can still do with your down time- whatever you want.

The group takes time to do things, the individuals have their own time too.

I've said it repeatedly.. and have just said it again.

-S


Kyoni wrote:

Wow you guys post at amazing speeds...

some more food (I hope) from my side:

- my character happens to be an inquisitor (one who dislikes mages, no less), so figuring out that the crafting wizard is dishonest with the rest of the party, will come out at some point (gotta love that high sense motive and detect lies)

PS: we don't have any crafters yet... we're still low-level

- all my characters tend to provide the materials for crafting... you know when my plumbing needs fixed I usually go buy whatever my crafty friend needs and give him a hand while he fixes it, handing him his tools and holding stuff... call it "aid another". So our crafty guys either tend to craft while other party members are doing other "party duties" (bargaining with nobles, researching in libraries, ...) or they tend to get some help from those that got nothing to do because
in game, you just help your friends when they do something for you
and
metagame, that +2 from aid another might help with rushing the crafting and make the check a cake-walk

when you are helping the crafter you'll notice very quickly if that crafter is pocketing some money for his own purse

a crafter who refuses "my" help will be suspicious, because he either has something to hide or considers me a liability... I'd be offended by both. :-p
Unless the helper dumped his dex into abysmal regions, even handing tools or carrying stuff or holding stuff should be doable and qualify for helping to speed up crafting (=rush).

That's operating under the assumption that the crafter is hiding his fee. I don't hide the fee. But I certainly could see some bad times ahead for a crafter who does hide it. :)


Selgard wrote:
*the group has already paid him infull for his contribution*.

Unless the party member pays the crafter for his creating a personal magic item for them, then no, he has not been paid in full for his contribution.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Fighter Friend - heya, Mr. Wizard, I needs me a +3 Bastard Sword. Can you make that for me?

Mr. Wizard - why sure, Fighter Friend, I'll get right on that. It's gonna cost you 11001gp. Is that okay?

Fighter Friend - hey now, Mr. Wizard, just you check yourself there. That Bastard Sword, if one were to be had in town, would cost 18335gp. I know for a fact that Marty's Magic Emporium will only buy items at half of their retail price. By my calculations, that's 9167.5gp. You're trying to rip me off Mr. Wizard! You're trying to gouge me for an extra 1833.5gp and I won't stand for it.

Mr. Wizard - well, okay Fighter Friend. I'm sorry you feel that way.

A few weeks later...

Fighter Friend - heya, Mr. Wizard, guess what?! Marty's Magic Emporium just got a +3 Bastard Sword in stock. I snapped it up Immediately!

Mr. Wizard - that's super Fighter Friend! Glad everything worked out for you.

----------

What Mr. Wizard isn't telling Fighter Friend is that he went ahead and made that sword anyway. And then, using Diplomacy, he sold it to Marty's Magic Emporium for material cost +10%. He successfully convinced Marty to give him more than half if the sword was sold in the first 7 days.

/ you're a mean one, Mr. Wizard.


Dr Grecko wrote:
Selgard wrote:

Imean really:

How many times do you have to sell a sword +1 for X only to go to the shpo and *see your same sword* for sale for 2X before your brain cells connect and say "Holy crap bat man, he's only paying me half!"

Once? Twice? three times? a dozen? pick a number.

...

How many times before it clicks? For the wizard? the witch? The bard? the rogue?
Even if one PC is an absolute moron I'm sure the others can help him figure out the math.

You don't have to agree with RAW. but its still RAW. And its what we have to go by, unless you want to open a thread about possible house rules to the (rather silly) D&D economy.

Except, by RAW, the only way for a player to determine the value is through an appraise check. Sure the others can help him determine the value through their checks, but there is a real ingame mechanic for determining value.

Now accepting everything is worth exactly half the book value is a meta-game concept that most everyone follows for simplicity's sake. The rule says Items "In general" can be sold for half price. This means that it is the GM interpretation on how much a shop will buy and sell for. A diplomacy check may certainly turn the shopkeeps attitude more favorably to you.

There is no "automatic" way for a PC to know exactly what the value of an item is save for an appraise check. It's meta-game to think otherwise.

If you want an in-game reason as to how one +1 sword may be percieved at a different value than another, then you could chalk it up to "this one looked more damaged than the other, or wasn't as pretty, Also the magic aura it generates isn't quite like the previous one, although it's very similar."

It sounds like you are telling me, that if my 10th level fighter has sold 20,000 Longswords +1 for the exact same price every time, and has seen them in the stores everytime for twice that, that when he sees a longsword+1 that he has to make a skill check to determine whats going to happen in the shop.

I can't imagine you actually think that.. if you do- the fighter's you've seen must all have a 3 int or something.

Its like saying you need a knowledge check to determine something is vulnerable to fire *after* you see fire in action against the critter, or a heraldry check to know what that sigil means *after* someone just told you what it meant.

"thats the sigil of the Raven clan, they rule Craftercity here"
*rolls dice* "sorry, I have no idea what the sigil means."
"I said its the raven clan, they rule Craftercity here"
"sorry. that sigil.. the meaning just escapes me. I have no idea."

Skill checks to determine information are not needed when you have direct information.

or to put it another way: Once you have observed a piece of information, you don't need a knowledge check to know that piece of inforation. You already know it.
Checks for information are to see if your character knows something they haven't already experienced. (or maybe to remember it, depending on the issue and the DM).

I'm imagining someone swinging a normal sword against a bad guy, finding it particularly resistant to it- switching to a cold iron weapon, and finding it not particularly resistant to that- and being told they have to make a knowledge check to see the difference.

No.

-S


shallowsoul wrote:
Kyoni wrote:


- my character happens to be an inquisitor (one who dislikes mages, no less), so figuring out that the crafting wizard is dishonest with the rest of the party, will come out at some point (gotta love that high sense motive and detect lies)

How are you coming up with the Wizard being dishonest to start with? Charging 10% is actually being more than honest, he is giving a discount.

You can't meta-game the cost of an item and then expect to declare the Wizard is being dishonest therefore your sense motive and detect lies should show what you want it to show.

In actuality your sense motive would show that he is giving you a deal and detect lies would come up with nothing.

Dishonest is if the wizard is claiming no charge when he's in fact charging.

If he is claiming he's taking an extra 10% then there's no deception.

-S

Silver Crusade

Some people need to look at that thing called time. I can tell you in our games that we are limited in time so the crafter really needs to decide if he is going to make things for others, make things for himself, or make maybe an item for himself and items for the others or any other combo.

Why shouldn't the fighter pay the crafter a little extra for his time spent doing it? Before you mention the fighter letting that ogre run by you, don't forget how many times the Wizard has probably saved the group, fighter included, as well.


Selgard wrote:
It sounds like you are telling me, that if my 10th level fighter has sold 20,000 Longswords +1 for the exact same price every time, and has seen them in the stores everytime for twice that, that when he sees a longsword+1 that he has to make a skill check to determine whats going to happen in the shop.

By RAW, yeah you make a skill check every time.. IF I were a GM'ing this I'd probably give the guy a +100 on his roll for the rediculous amount of experience he's had with the item. However.. Say mr fighter finds himself a +2 longsword.. Now he doesn't just know the cost, he has to roll. He's never encounterd a +2 before. Bottom Line - You don't know the cost of any one particular item unless you roll the check. Anything else is meta-game or in the example above (circumstance bonus)


shallowsoul wrote:
How are you coming up with the Wizard being dishonest to start with? Charging 10% is actually being more than honest, he is giving a discount.

He is pocketing more money than the raw material cost. That _is_ dishonest when his crafting is done, while others are doing other party-needed work. If the crafter thinks he is being honest when pocketing party money for his personal wallet, I expect my DM to intervene in some way... and this still wont get around the fact that our party members usually provide the crafting materials. How will the wizard make sure nobody will notice him putting those 10% into his wallet?

Again... in our party work-time is party-work-time for everybody... those who have nothing to do will be aiding others to the best of their abilities.


Dr Grecko wrote:
Selgard wrote:
*the group has already paid him infull for his contribution*.
Unless the party member pays the crafter for his creating a personal magic item for them, then no, he has not been paid in full for his contribution.

Your pronoun use confuses me.

The group is paying the crafter to craft. And to contribute to combat, and to do whatever else the group needs doing.
Just like every other member. Whether "in combat" or "out of combat" everyone's getting paid to contribute however and whenever they can.

If you are suggesting the group pay the crafter so the crafter can make his own things- then I'm not sure where this idea came from. He no more gets paid from the group to specifically make his own things than he does for specifically making Freddy Fighter something.
He's getting paid generally, for all of his work. The same as everyone else.

Again: no one is a special snowflake. No one gets to come to the group and say "guys I can do X that you can't, so pay me extra"
Not the cleric not the fighter not the rogue not the wizard, not the whoever it was who chose a crafting feat.

-S

Silver Crusade

Selgard wrote:
shallowsoul wrote:
Kyoni wrote:


- my character happens to be an inquisitor (one who dislikes mages, no less), so figuring out that the crafting wizard is dishonest with the rest of the party, will come out at some point (gotta love that high sense motive and detect lies)

How are you coming up with the Wizard being dishonest to start with? Charging 10% is actually being more than honest, he is giving a discount.

You can't meta-game the cost of an item and then expect to declare the Wizard is being dishonest therefore your sense motive and detect lies should show what you want it to show.

In actuality your sense motive would show that he is giving you a deal and detect lies would come up with nothing.

Dishonest is if the wizard is claiming no charge when he's in fact charging.

If he is claiming he's taking an extra 10% then there's no deception.

-S

More meta-gaming I'm afraid. What are you comparing your figures to?

He could be charging you for materials and time.

Run me through that scenario then.


Selgard wrote:
or to put it another way: Once you have observed a piece of information, you don't need a knowledge check to know that piece of inforation. You already know it.

Appraise operates in a similar fashion.. Once you roll, retry's will genereate the same information. Meaning once you think that longsword is worth less than it actually is, you will always think that it's worth less than it actually is. Then when you get half.. you should be thrilled at the deal you are getting.


shallowsoul wrote:

Some people need to look at that thing called time. I can tell you in our games that we are limited in time so the crafter really needs to decide if he is going to make things for others, make things for himself, or make maybe an item for himself and items for the others or any other combo.

Why shouldn't the fighter pay the crafter a little extra for his time spent doing it? Before you mention the fighter letting that ogre run by you, don't forget how many times the Wizard has probably saved the group, fighter included, as well.

If the crafter has time to only craft for himself, then thats what he should do. He is the one who took the feat. It should be of benefit to himself first. Presumably there will come time when hes out of cash and might make something for someone else though.

But if not- if he really only has time to make for himself. then thats exactly what he should do. Freddy the Fighter can just go fly a kite.

-S

Silver Crusade

Kyoni wrote:
shallowsoul wrote:
How are you coming up with the Wizard being dishonest to start with? Charging 10% is actually being more than honest, he is giving a discount.

He is pocketing more money than the raw material cost. That _is_ dishonest when his crafting is done, while others are doing other party-needed work. If the crafter thinks he is being honest when pocketing party money for his personal wallet, I expect my DM to intervene in some way... and this still wont get around the fact that our party members usually provide the crafting materials. How will the wizard make sure nobody will notice him putting those 10% into his wallet?

Again... in our party work-time is party-work-time for everybody... those who have nothing to do will be aiding others to the best of their abilities.

Unless you are a crafter, you don't know what the RAW materials cost. Appraise will only give you the actual value of the item, not the RAW material cost so your spells will fail because he is still being honest because you are getting it below the value cost.


So instead of helping the group, he hurts the group.
Awesome team work. I love it.

Why did this guy join a group again? He's just in it for himself anyway.

-S


Selgard wrote:

Again: no one is a special snowflake. No one gets to come to the group and say "guys I can do X that you can't, so pay me extra"

Not the cleric not the fighter not the rogue not the wizard, not the whoever it was who chose a crafting feat.

-S

Except that by ruling via SKR, the only wealth a crafter is allowed to enhance is his own. Not charging the party would be a violation of this ruling. Crafting for the party is probably against it as well.


shallowsoul wrote:
Selgard wrote:
shallowsoul wrote:
Kyoni wrote:


- my character happens to be an inquisitor (one who dislikes mages, no less), so figuring out that the crafting wizard is dishonest with the rest of the party, will come out at some point (gotta love that high sense motive and detect lies)

How are you coming up with the Wizard being dishonest to start with? Charging 10% is actually being more than honest, he is giving a discount.

You can't meta-game the cost of an item and then expect to declare the Wizard is being dishonest therefore your sense motive and detect lies should show what you want it to show.

In actuality your sense motive would show that he is giving you a deal and detect lies would come up with nothing.

Dishonest is if the wizard is claiming no charge when he's in fact charging.

If he is claiming he's taking an extra 10% then there's no deception.

-S

Uhh, well the scenario is this:

Wizard tells the truth. <- no dishonesty.
Wizard tells a lie. <- dishonesty.

I'm not sure I can really explain it better than this?

-S


Selgard wrote:

So instead of helping the group, he hurts the group.

Awesome team work. I love it.

Why did this guy join a group again? He's just in it for himself anyway.

-S

How exactly is it hurting the group by providing items at a discount?


shallowsoul wrote:
Some people need to look at that thing called time. I can tell you in our games that we are limited in time so the crafter really needs to decide if he is going to make things for others, make things for himself, or make maybe an item for himself and items for the others or any other combo.

As far as I'm concerned he should craft in any combo he, the crafter, sees fit. But as soon as tier-1-class crafter starts complaining about him doing all the work in combat and me not pulling my weight and that I need to optimize the heck out of my character in a purely metagaming fashion because rp-optimizing is not enough...: I, the player, will personally scratch that crafter-player's eyeballs out. ^^


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Kyoni wrote:
when you are helping the crafter you'll notice very quickly if that crafter is pocketing some money for his own purse

Playing devil's advocate here.

:)

If you are providing the material, how will he pocket some money, there are only materials?


Selgard wrote:

So instead of helping the group, he hurts the group.

Awesome team work. I love it.

Why did this guy join a group again? He's just in it for himself anyway.

-S

Would you rather he turned Mr. Wizard on you and sold the items you wanted to an NPC first?

Pay the man for his time and ability to make you exactly what you want.


shallowsoul wrote:
Kyoni wrote:
shallowsoul wrote:
How are you coming up with the Wizard being dishonest to start with? Charging 10% is actually being more than honest, he is giving a discount.

He is pocketing more money than the raw material cost. That _is_ dishonest when his crafting is done, while others are doing other party-needed work. If the crafter thinks he is being honest when pocketing party money for his personal wallet, I expect my DM to intervene in some way... and this still wont get around the fact that our party members usually provide the crafting materials. How will the wizard make sure nobody will notice him putting those 10% into his wallet?

Again... in our party work-time is party-work-time for everybody... those who have nothing to do will be aiding others to the best of their abilities.

Unless you are a crafter, you don't know what the RAW materials cost. Appraise will only give you the actual value of the item, not the RAW material cost so your spells will fail because he is still being honest because you are getting it below the value cost.

Lets step aside from the issue of whether or not folks are allowed to craft 10%.

The scenario would be:
The wizard takes 10%. He tells the guy he' taking 10%. Now whether or not Freddy likes it- the wizard is shooting straight. He's telling him the truth.

Now, wizard takes 10%. Tells the fighter he's making it for cost.
Now *regardless* of whether or not Freddy knows the truth- he's being lied to. The wizard is being dishonest.
If he's being told its made for cost, cost is what it costs to make it- not cost +10%. The wizard is flat out lying to the fighter and someone could make a sense motive or all that to determine the lie.

If the wizard says he's making it at a discount off FMV (while not telling them he's taking 10%), he's still being honest because unless he's charging 100% he is infact giving the PC a discounted price.
I'm not sure if a sense motive would be approrpirate for not telling the full truth but just a partial one- but super-technically the guy told the truth. Just not all of it.

-S


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Selgard wrote:

See, it has nothing to do with the amount of the deal.

You are seeing it as "he's gteting a cost savings of X%! he should be grateful!"
I'm seeing "he's charging me more than it cost him to make, he's ripping me off!"

*the group has already paid him infull for his contribution*.
Asking for *more* on top of that, for contributing, is the issue.

Of course he wouldn't craft it if someone didn't want it. No one is claiming he make a ton of things and hope someone buys them.
We are suggesting that if someone ask you to do something you can do that they can't, that you.. I dunno.. do it without charging them for it.
Just like *they* do on *Your* behalf all the time.
And for that matter, like the crafter is Also doing some of the time.
presumably the crafter has *other* skills they are *also* using for the group.
No one gets to select one, some, or all of their capabilities and try to charge the group for them.

Well, once again, it comes down to how groups handle downtime. You see downtime as part group time. I have found that most groups do not do that, and from what I am seeing in this thread, most groups don't in fact do so.

So, if for most groups, downtime has no group time in it, then the crafter is using their time for any crafting - and why shouldn't they charge in that case?

As do many others, I do not believe that the crafter has been paid in full from the loot.


shallowsoul wrote:
Unless you are a crafter, you don't know what the RAW materials cost. Appraise will only give you the actual value of the item, not the RAW material cost so your spells will fail because he is still being honest because you are getting it below the value cost.

If I BUY the material I know the cost because I bought the materials. If the wizard tells me he needs more money for crafting he'll have to tell me for what.

Of course if he says up-front that he will charge he is honest. But then I know he's charging and can disagree with that...
most likely anybody in the party will then feel obliged to take some crafting skills&feats and charge others... yay, now we get to play attorneys&accountants :-S


Dr Grecko wrote:
Selgard wrote:

So instead of helping the group, he hurts the group.

Awesome team work. I love it.

Why did this guy join a group again? He's just in it for himself anyway.

-S

How exactly is it hurting the group by providing items at a discount?

Because he is not providing things at a DISCOUNT. Quite the reverse. He is charging the party more than he can sell anywhere else. If he could sell the goods somewhere else for more gold THEN it would be a discount. The players can figure this out when they loot items and try to sell them themselves.

This entire argument is a false argument. It's only a discount if the crafter is selling for LESS than he otherwise could. That's what "discount" means. The fact that the same item sells for more somewhere else is totally irrelevant. The crafter can sell it to NPCs at 1/2 price or mark it up and sell it to a party member.

That's it. By RAW anyway. So when they mark it up, reasonably intelligent PCs will REALIZE that it's been marked up. And they won't like it.

But this has been pointed out roughly two bazillion times and the profiteering crowd simply refuses to acknowledge it.


loaba wrote:
Selgard wrote:

So instead of helping the group, he hurts the group.

Awesome team work. I love it.

Why did this guy join a group again? He's just in it for himself anyway.

-S

Would you rather he turned Mr. Wizard on you and sold the items you wanted to an NPC first?

Pay the man for his time and ability to make you exactly what you want.

I'd rather any member of the group act like it, than not, to be honest.

Dude saying "screw you I'll sell to the vendor get my 10% and you still pay full price ha ha" is looking for a new group tomorrow. Don't be a jerk is *still* the rule. At least for for us. Mr Smartass wizard? hope he got in good with that NPC. He's gonna be shacking up in his shop while the group goes out to roll bad guys.

It really goes back to what's been said before:
Discuss it all with the group before hand. No one person gets to dictate terms to the group. If your group is fine with 10% fine, charge it. If not- guess what? you don't get to charge it. Not even going behind their backs and finding other ways to get it.
Either get on board, with whichever way the group decides to go, or find a new group.

Thats really, truly the bottom line. "the right way" is the way to group decides to play. But going behind their back and doing what you want anyway? Soo not happening. I can't even conceive of a DM letting that go.

-S


Mistwalker wrote:

Playing devil's advocate here.

:)

If you are providing the material, how will he pocket some money, there are only materials?

He could try to sleight-of-hand some materials because of that 5% trait thingy? :-D


Selgard wrote:

Lets step aside from the issue of whether or not folks are allowed to craft 10%.

The scenario would be:
The wizard takes 10%. He tells the guy he' taking 10%. Now whether or not Freddy likes it- the wizard is shooting straight. He's telling him the truth.

Now, wizard takes 10%. Tells the fighter he's making it for cost.
Now *regardless* of whether or not Freddy knows the truth- he's being lied to. The wizard is being dishonest.
If he's being told its made for cost, cost is what it costs to make it- not cost +10%. The wizard is flat out lying to the fighter and someone could make a sense motive or all that to determine the lie.

If the wizard says he's making it at a discount off FMV (while not telling them he's taking 10%), he's still being honest because unless he's charging 100% he is infact giving the PC a discounted price.
I'm not sure if a sense motive would be approrpirate for not telling the full truth but just a partial one- but super-technically the guy told the truth. Just not all of it.

-S

QFT - This is how I see it too. He is only dishonest if he tells them he's crafting at cost when he is in fact fleecing 10% from them. A dangerous precedent to set, and he will get caught and it wont be pretty.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Selgard wrote:

It sounds like you are telling me, that if my 10th level fighter has sold 20,000 Longswords +1 for the exact same price every time

*looks innocently at Selgard*

Hmm, doesn't the rogue/bard face sell the items? So how would the fighter know?

*get's behind safe cover*


Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Because he is not providing things at a DISCOUNT. Quite the reverse. He is charging the party more than he can sell anywhere else.

And your character has no way of knowing that.

Adamantine Dragon wrote:
So when they mark it up, meta-gaming players will REALIZE that it's been marked up. And they won't like it.

Fixed that for ya.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Selgard wrote:

So instead of helping the group, he hurts the group.

Awesome team work. I love it.

Why did this guy join a group again?

Well, with some of the PCs in some games (thinking of the rabid racist dwarf - all others were inferior), the problem was resisting the urge to "accidentaly" have them in spell areas of effect or to charge them 150%.


By the RAW, Mr. Wizard can attempt to use Diplomacy when selling his magic item. There is nothing that says he can't make a deal.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Because he is not providing things at a DISCOUNT. Quite the reverse. He is charging the party more than he can sell anywhere else.

You have a strange way of looking at what a "discount" means.

-
You say "He is charging the party more than he can sell anywhere else". While that statement is true, this statement is equally true. "He is charging the party less then they can purchase anywhere else"

Now when stores offer you "discounted prices" it's not because they can charge you more than they can sell anywhere else. It is because they are charging less then you can purchase anywhere else.

Now that is truely what discount means.


And since you people like scenarios:

me: what materials do you need, in case I happen to have some already?
crafter: x and y
me: ok, I got x, how much does y cost
crafter: z gold
me: ok, I'll see if I can get a deal and bring you the stuff
crafter: oh no need, I got it already, just give me the money so I can refill next time
me: ok

guess that is a fairly reasonable discussion and certainly allows for a sense motive or detect lies


Mistwalker wrote:
Selgard wrote:

See, it has nothing to do with the amount of the deal.

You are seeing it as "he's gteting a cost savings of X%! he should be grateful!"
I'm seeing "he's charging me more than it cost him to make, he's ripping me off!"

*the group has already paid him infull for his contribution*.
Asking for *more* on top of that, for contributing, is the issue.

Of course he wouldn't craft it if someone didn't want it. No one is claiming he make a ton of things and hope someone buys them.
We are suggesting that if someone ask you to do something you can do that they can't, that you.. I dunno.. do it without charging them for it.
Just like *they* do on *Your* behalf all the time.
And for that matter, like the crafter is Also doing some of the time.
presumably the crafter has *other* skills they are *also* using for the group.
No one gets to select one, some, or all of their capabilities and try to charge the group for them.

Well, once again, it comes down to how groups handle downtime. You see downtime as part group time. I have found that most groups do not do that, and from what I am seeing in this thread, most groups don't in fact do so.

So, if for most groups, downtime has no group time in it, then the crafter is using their time for any crafting - and why shouldn't they charge in that case?

As do many others, I do not believe that the crafter has been paid in full from the loot.

I'll bite at this.

Does your group ever research things at the library? Ever?
Do they sell loot?
Ever?
I mean, i assume you have at least once done one or both of them.
Does every single person go?
If the answer is yes: then you do in fact have non-combat group time.
You are just choosing to use it as 1 solid block.
Instead of doing two things at once, your group has chosen to go as an army to the library to do the work. (and there's nothing wrong with that).

Part of your "not combat time" is spent doing group things. Assuming you sell loot, check the library, or make camp or whatever. There really is just no way around it. Now I will agree that your group may not choose to divvy it up- but thats really an issue of how your group rolls, than an issue of the time not existing.

And again- if your group rolls that way, and agrees to the 10% or whatever, great. if i came to your group You would epect me to go with it (or shut up about it at least) or buy full price or craft for myself.
At no point would you expect me to go around behind folks backs and try to "get my gold back" or harass the crafter about it continaully and gripe to everyone who'd listen about it. Of course not.
When you join a group you go by their rules.
When a new campaign starts everyone discusses the rules and comes to an agreement on it. If you are the odd man out, get on board or leave.

The same would be expected if you came to the table I'm at. You'd be expected to get on board or go home. You wouldn't be allowed to try and go around people's backs to get your 10% anyway or whatever. You either abide by the group rules or you aren't in the group.

Do people not operate that way? Do you really have people in your group who dictate the rules to everyone else and they all just suck it up and take it? "Well gee guys he's the wizard I guess we have to do what he says".

I mean regardless of what the group decides, do you have group members who tell the group to f'off and do it their own way? If so- what consequence does the party impose (if any)?

-S


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Kyoni wrote:
Mistwalker wrote:

Playing devil's advocate here.

:)

If you are providing the material, how will he pocket some money, there are only materials?

He could try to sleight-of-hand some materials because of that 5% trait thingy? :-D

But then he isn't pocketing any money - so there! you have to forfet the argument! It's in the rule (cause I just made it up).

:)


Dr Grecko wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Because he is not providing things at a DISCOUNT. Quite the reverse. He is charging the party more than he can sell anywhere else.

You have a strange way of looking at what a "discount" means.

-
You say "He is charging the party more than he can sell anywhere else". While that statement is true, this statement is equally true. "He is charging the party less then they can purchase anywhere else"

Now when stores offer you "discounted prices" it's not because they can charge you more than they can sell anywhere else. It is because they are charging less then you can purchase anywhere else.

Now that is truely what discount means.

You're making sense. Stop that immediately. The Free Crafters insist on only paying wholesale NPC prices. Anything else is just jerky, man!


Dr Grecko wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Because he is not providing things at a DISCOUNT. Quite the reverse. He is charging the party more than he can sell anywhere else.

You have a strange way of looking at what a "discount" means.

-
You say "He is charging the party more than he can sell anywhere else". While that statement is true, this statement is equally true. "He is charging the party less then they can purchase anywhere else"

Now when stores offer you "discounted prices" it's not because they can charge you more than they can sell anywhere else. It is because they are charging less then you can purchase anywhere else.

Now that is truely what discount means.

The crafting PC is not a store for the other PC's. He doesn't get to charge them. They are already getting paid for their work.

Again:(and again, and again it seems)
The PC's are already getting paid for their work. Every one of them. Special Snowflake Cindy Crafter doesn't get to charge more for her work than does any one else in the group. Not through lying about it not through "mischaracterizing it". Not at all.
You can say you are getting a discount you can really call it whatever you want to- you still don't get more than the same equal share as everyone else in the group.

Every member of the group gets an equal share of the loot. No one gets to reach into the pocket of someone else and take more out.
No. One.

-S


Selgard wrote:
The crafting PC is not a store for the other PC's.

The buying PCs are not NPCs at a store!

Seriously - look at the Fighter/Wizard interchange I posted. What Fighter is so savvy that he sees that he's being asked to pay 1835.5gp more than the NPC merchant? And if the Fighter is that savvy, then surely he's cognizant of the HUGE savings that he is being offered.


loaba wrote:
Dr Grecko wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Because he is not providing things at a DISCOUNT. Quite the reverse. He is charging the party more than he can sell anywhere else.

You have a strange way of looking at what a "discount" means.

-
You say "He is charging the party more than he can sell anywhere else". While that statement is true, this statement is equally true. "He is charging the party less then they can purchase anywhere else"

Now when stores offer you "discounted prices" it's not because they can charge you more than they can sell anywhere else. It is because they are charging less then you can purchase anywhere else.

Now that is truely what discount means.

You're making sense. Stop that immediately. The Free Crafters insist on only paying wholesale NPC prices. Anything else is just jerky, man!

And why not? Everyone else is doing their party for nothing more than the equal share.

Why is the crafter a special snowflake?
Why does taking that one feat suddenly mystically and magically entitel you to more of the group's gold than anyone else?

Apparently some of you just think crafters are inherently better than everyone else.
I just don't buy that.
(err no pun intended.)

-S

p.s. ok pun intended, who am I kidding?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Selgard wrote:

I'll bite at this.

Does your group ever research things at the library? Ever?
Do they sell loot?
Ever?
I mean, i assume you have at least once done one or both of them.
Does every single person go?
If the answer is yes: then you do in fact have non-combat group time.
You are just choosing to use it as 1 solid block.
Instead of doing two things at once, your group has chosen to go as an army to the library to do the work. (and there's nothing wrong with that).

Part of your "not combat time" is spent doing group things. Assuming you sell loot, check the library, or make camp or whatever. There really is just no way around it. Now I will agree that your group may not choose to divvy it up- but thats really an issue of how your group rolls, than an issue of the time not existing.

And again- if your group rolls that way, and agrees to the 10% or whatever, great. if i came to your group You would epect me to go with it (or shut up about it at least) or buy full price or craft for myself.
At no point would you expect me to go around behind folks backs and try to "get my gold back" or harass the crafter about it continaully and gripe to everyone who'd listen about it. Of course not.
When you join a group you go by their rules.
When a new campaign starts everyone discusses the rules and comes to an agreement on it. If you are the odd man out, get on board or leave.

The same would be expected if you came to the table I'm at. You'd be expected to get on board or go home. You wouldn't be allowed to try and go around people's backs to get your 10% anyway or whatever. You either abide by the group rules or you aren't in the group.

Do people not operate that way? Do you really have people in your group who dictate the rules to everyone else and they all just suck it up and take it? "Well gee guys he's the wizard I guess we have to do what he says".

I mean regardless of what the group decides, do you have group members who tell the group to f'off and do it their own way? If so- what consequence does the party impose (if any)

Well, we have nubile dancers and merchants come to the PCs when they get back to town. The dancers to distract the PCs and the merchants to take advantage of the PCs and only give 50% of value.

:)

Seriously, selling loot is treated the way as the 50% selling price. It is handwaved away - Players aren't interested in dungeons and accountants.

The research is usually done by the crafter. :)


loaba wrote:
Selgard wrote:
The crafting PC is not a store for the other PC's.
The buying PCs are not NPCs at a store!

True enough.

They are your friends. Your comrades. The guys you trust to watch your back and to be there for you when the chips are down and the stakes are high.
Oh yeah- and the guys you charge 10% to for something you are already getting paid to do.
can't forget about that.

I understand the greed, i really do. I just don't understand why someone would let that come into play in the situations such as a D&D group. You are really gonna nickel and dime the guy standing there between you and the bad guys? really? You are gonna charge him 10% more for that breast plate just because you can? knowing you are gonna make him a better blocker for you?
Or charge that cleric 10% more for the headband that'll let him heal more often? or for the wizard that'll make his spells hit harder?
or whatever the scenario is?
I mean I understand what you are saying intellectually- it just makes absolutely no sense to me ingame.

I'd as soon charge the fighter 10% extra as I would steal his sword. I'm just screwing myself either way. It makes no sense.

I'd 10 times rather help the group be stronger than to Not do so because they couldn't may my fee.

I'm glad your groups work that way. I just can't see myself ever getting along in that group. Making everyone weaker so one guy can be stronger just seems counter-intuitive.

-S


Mistwalker wrote:
Seriously, selling loot is treated the way as the 50% selling price. It is handwaved away - Players aren't interested in dungeons and accountants.

And yet they are playing Dungeons & Accountants. Adamantine Dragon certainly is. His characters always know that a +3 Bastard Sword retails for 18335gp and wholesales for 9167.5gp. I mean, they just know, it's a gift I guess. Likewise, his characters always know that a PC crafter simply cannot command more than wholesale price from any NPC. Ever. But he's not meta-gaming.

Silver Crusade

Then what's the point in even having the Appraise skill?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Selgard wrote:
I understand the greed, i really do. I just don't understand why someone would let that come into play in the situations such as a D&D group.

For most of us, it isn't about greed.

It is about being paid for crafting items during downtime.

You and others have said that you would drop a PC from the group if they refused to craft for you. You were quite clear about that. How does that not translate to greed on your PC's part? You are booting the crafter because they won't give you a 50% discount, on their own time?


shallowsoul wrote:
Then what's the point in even having the Appraise skill?

There's no point at all. Don't need it. Free Crafters (and their PCs as well it seems) have the CRB right at their finger-tips. Don't go trying to sell 'em on the whole "what you want isn't even available in town" angle, either. No dice, buddy. That dog won't hunt.

Craft for me at cost or you're a big jerk and I won't do my part in combat...


loaba wrote:
Mistwalker wrote:
Seriously, selling loot is treated the way as the 50% selling price. It is handwaved away - Players aren't interested in dungeons and accountants.
And yet they are playing Dungeons & Accountants. Adamantine Dragon certainly is. His characters always know that a +3 Bastard Sword retails for 18335gp and wholesales for 9167.5gp. I mean, they just know, it's a gift I guess. Likewise, his characters always know that a PC crafter simply cannot command more than wholesale price from any NPC. Ever. But he's not meta-gaming.

loaba, I don't presume to put words into your mouth. Kindly stop putting words into mine.

In fact I have been the one pointing out that this insistence on knowing "exact" values of items is ridiculous. However, recognizing a 15% difference in value does NOT require knowing the fractional copper value of an item. Except in your arguments. Which shows how strong your arguments are.

Silver Crusade

loaba wrote:
shallowsoul wrote:
Then what's the point in even having the Appraise skill?

There's no point at all. Don't need it. Free Crafters (and their PCs as well it seems) have the CRB right at their finger-tips. Don't go trying to sell 'em on the whole "what you want isn't even available in town" angle, either. No dice, buddy. That dog won't hunt.

Craft for me at cost or you're a big jerk and I won't do my part in combat...

I would say take your ball and go home.


Adamantine Dragon wrote:

loaba, I don't presume to put words into your mouth. Kindly stop putting words into mine.

In fact I have been the one pointing out that this insistence on knowing "exact" values of items is ridiculous. However, recognizing a 15% difference in value does NOT require knowing the fractional copper value of an item.

Answer this question - how does your PC know that the crafter cannot sell his wares for more than wholesale?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
shallowsoul wrote:
Then what's the point in even having the Appraise skill?

It doesn't give you exact values. It can give you wildly inaccurate values if you don't "appraise" properly.

I don't know of any PCs that have put a lot of ranks into appraise. A few, yes, but not many. Most games handwave the valuation of loot, with GMs simply telling the players what loot was found on those bodies and treasury - not asking them to spend a fair bit of time rolling to see if they figure it all out correctly.

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