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Creating magical item for the party + small fee on the work = players uprorar?


Advice

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Shadow Lodge

Selgard wrote:

*the king invites the group to his throne room*

Well done good and faithful servants. My Bob the Barbarian, thats a nice sword you have. I think I'll have to give you 1/3 less than I'm giving everyone else, despite the fact that you all went and risked your lives to save my daughter. Ahh well, them's the breaks".

RAW fails the "ingame" test. Which is why it seems so weird.
*it is weird*.

So true. This is why, as soon as the party makes another 4k, that sword should get sundered or stolen.

WBL isn't just weird. It's one of the ways a GM can reliably create encounters that challenge everyone equally. In the above example, the barbarian will be more able to hit any monster that the GM sends at the party. If the GM balances for that, everyone else hits less often.

You're thinking about this from the player/non-crafter perspective. From that perspective, it's totally fair and not a big deal at all for the wealth to be all out of whack and the crafter to make whatever for whoever.

I'm asking you to think about it from the crafter/GM perspective.


Gauss wrote:
As for encountering a GM: now you have...me. I keep track of the player's equipment and request an inventory about every 2-3 levels. IF they are significantly over I tone down treasure for a bit. If they are significantly under I increase treasure for a bit. I am not the only GM that does this.

How very communist of you.

If I were a player in your game, I would make sure neither I nor anyone else took crafting feats, since you're just going to deprive us of treasure later as punishment for using them. Might as well spend the feat slots on something else, since you'll give us loot to force us onto the WBL table regardless.

Not only that, I'd donate huge stacks of cash to every NPC I met to buy favor. Maybe hire a dozen minstrels to follow me around, and watch the treasure from the monsters rise to compensate my poor money management.

What nonsense.

I don't know how SKR runs his games, and I don't really care, because the only way to sensibly use WBL is to use it to set loot and let players do whatever they want to with the loot they get. Running a game to take a 9th level party to 11? Set your loot by going (WBL11-WBL9)*(#players). Let them divy it how they see fit, and don't be a nazi about what they keep. It's the only way.

Ravingdork has it right as usual.

Shadow Lodge

Selgard wrote:
No character is going to sit there and let a crafter charge them extra.

Can we agree that this is an overgeneralization? Clearly, my characters would. Gnomersy's would. Banatine's would. And none of us would think it was unfair or "greedy." Quite the opposite, actually.

No character of yours is going to do that. That's how you want to play. Thats okay. But you don't know what my characters think is fair. I play different characters who think different things are fair at different times. I guess you don't. That's okay, too.

But don't claim that the RAW is "bad" just because you don't like it. I think it makes sense, and that there are good reasons for it, that I've outlined above. I even think there are ways for DMs to deal with it (again, above).


Kyoni wrote:

Just a little question to the pro-charging crowd:

say my non-crafter doesn't have enough money to pay the 5% more (need a little base cash for daily expenses and stuff)

How do you even know what Traits my character has bought?

Quote:

- would your crafter not craft the item till my character has all the money?

- would your crafter insist on my character loaning the money and being indebted? (knowing that I HATE loans because: money between friends = broken friendship)
- would your crafter accept a favor-for-a-favor deal? say wally-wizard agrees to craft the item for betty-bard and while he's crafting, she'll be out getting some obsucre book from that pesky noble. Since wally-wizard dumped his charisma to boost his int, he can't convince the noble, but the noble is too enthralled by betty-bard to refuse her anything

Depends entirely on the character I was playing, and his relationship with the character you were playing.

Do you people not, you know, ROLE PLAY in your games?


Selgard, I'm not sure if it's just coz i'm tired, but think i might have suddenly had a total U-turn in my opinion because of you! (i guess you HAD to roll a 20 for one of these Diplomacy checks!)

or at least, i now fully understand the 'free' crafting side, and accept it as just as valid as the 'charge for crafting' side, anyway. I beleive now that it is a fundemental problem WITHIN the rules that is causing the disagreements on both sides...

Whatever that counts as, it is certainly progress at the very least! And i had almost given up hope :)


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Selgard wrote:

If you tell someone you are making an item for cost, and you are really making a profit off the item, you are stealing their money.

"hey guys, this item costs me 500 gold to craft" when it really costs you 450? Is stealing 50 gold from them.
-S

May I propose some alternates?

**

"Hey guys, I'll make that item for you for 500 gold."
"OK."

**

"Hey guys, I'll make that for you for 500 gold."
"Yeah but didn't you take a trait during character generation that lets you make it for 450?"
"Yeah, so?"
"So I want the item for 450."
"Fine I'll dump the trait and take something that's actually useful to me instead."

**

Did Occupy Wall Street suddenly infect the Paizo forums?

Adamantine Dragon wrote:
dragonfire8974 wrote:
Selgard wrote:


If you tell someone you are making an item for cost, and you are really making a profit off the item, you are stealing...
which of course, you can fix in game by just asking the party if they mind you taking 5% for yourself
I mind.

Then I'm not taking Hedge Magician in a game with you, I'll take something else instead, since Hedge Magician does me NO FREAKING GOOD with a bunch of blood sucking communists in my party.


I ask this question again of the communists:

If your party bard does a performance in a tavern, and he earns 50 gold pieces from the crowd, do you DESCEND ON HIM LIKE VULTURES to get your cut?


Sorry I missed the 1000th post everyone, I was at work.

Congratulations to everyone that has made this possible.

Now it's time for my customary post on different people playing different ways (group of friends vs single-minded collective) and that if you don't want to buy something from a crafter (PC or NPC) you don't have to. I'll wait with baited breath for the post arguing that a crafter should give his services to free to his fellow PCs or else he's a thief and he should be banned from the party.

Then I'll write my post saying that type of gameplay mentality doesn't appeal to me and then we're all back to pretty much where we were during the first ten comments of the thread except for a detailed analysis of the WBL rules and SKR's interpretation of those rules and the interpretation of SKR's interpretation.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Selgard wrote:
We literally aren't worried about how much wealth each of us has in relation to the rest of the group. We just aren't. I realize others don't work that way.

Yeah. Imo, wealth, along with experience are the two fundamental measures the game uses to gauge PC power.

Though, I find it odd that you don't care how much wealth each of you has, yet if the crafter ends up having more than everyone else, you get bent out of shape.

Quote:


No character is going to sit there and let a crafter charge them extra.

Mine do. All the time. Fair is fair.

Quote:
There is no really elegant solution. Except to ignore SKR's ruling.

Or charge for crafting, or don't craft for the party.

For, me, I've always thought that giving up feats to craft should make the crafter wealth. Not necessarily money, but he should be better equipped than the rest of his party because he gave up the feat.

No one else gave up a feat, so they shouldn't be better equipped.

Otherwise, if I, and the rest of the party for that matter, could enjoy double wealth simply for having a crafter in the party, there's no reason to adventure with a caster that doesn't craft.

It's like a Fighter that doesn't drop enemies, or a Cleric that doesn't heal. If you're not going to do your job then your services are not wanted.

Shadow Lodge

beej67 wrote:

I ask this question again of the communists:

If your party bard does a performance in a tavern, and he earns 50 gold pieces from the crowd, do you DESCEND ON HIM LIKE VULTURES to get your cut?

As a pro-pay-the-crafter person, let me: this is a false equivalency. The party didn't ask him to perform, and he isn't asking them for money because they listened.

If the bard said, "you guys should give me money because you listened," that would be different. If the bard got a +2 from the barbarian's dancing, a +2 from the wizard's light show and a +2 from the rogue's dirty monologue, then he should split the money.

Crafting is different because the character who asks gets something tangible and long-lasting in return, at a much lower price than he would have paid if the crafter had taken Skill Focus (Knowledge: Nobility), instead. Crafting is different because it unbalances the party and the game, as everyone but the crafter gets double the wealth he does.

I agree with your position, though not the approach. I just want the arguments to be rhetorically sound. :-)


Nezthalak wrote:
Does this thread need to continue?

It stopped 'needing to continue' about 500 posts ago, i think most of us are just still here for fun and profit! (or sheer bloody-mindedness!) :)


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Doram ob'Han wrote:
beej67 wrote:

I ask this question again of the communists:

If your party bard does a performance in a tavern, and he earns 50 gold pieces from the crowd, do you DESCEND ON HIM LIKE VULTURES to get your cut?

As a pro-pay-the-crafter person, let me: this is a false equivalency. The party didn't ask him to perform, and he isn't asking them for money because they listened.

As another pro-pay-the-crafter person, it's a rather apt analogy. In the analogy, the performing Bard is the crafter who crafts only for himself.

The Bards party says to him:

Party:We don't like that you're making all this money. Now, we don't want a cut of your profits, but what we do want is you to put on a special show, for each of us, and we'll keep all the proceeds.

Bard:So you want me to perform, but I don't get any money? What do I get, then?

Party: You get a party that's 10gp richer and better equipped, and if you don't, the Fighter won't block the next Ogre that charges at you, and the Cleric will charge you for healing afterwards.

And that's about the gist of half this thread.

Banatine wrote:
sheer bloody-mindedness! :)

:D

Shadow Lodge

eleclipse wrote:

So, i have a crafting wizard and we're playing kingmaker, we just hitted lvl 5 and started building the kingdom.

I'm a LN mage follower of Abadar, the other party member are a paladin a LG oracle, a NG inquisitor and a N druid.

I decided to add a 10% fee on the creation cost when crafting item for the party (this mean that a belt of +2 str will cost them 2200 instead of 2000, which is still a lot better than 4000); this caused an unexpected reaction on the other players (not pg, players).

They now pretty much consider me to be a jerk, just suggesting this we're arrived to the point of them preferring to buy the items at full price and they said me this is not right since the don't make me pay for cure, tanking ecc ecc.

This was totally unexpected by this group since they are always very mature, am i missing something and being "that guy" without knowing? Is this some kind of delicate argument in the average group?

Some advice on how to deal with this situation will be most appreciated! :)

(Note: I've not read all the 1000+ responses to this, and this is a response to the OP)

Interesting situation!

This to me, is a metagaming vs roleplaying moral situation, and the solution is unique to you, your fellow gamers, and the game you're playing. Without knowing much more than we do, I'm not sure we can give you the best advice anyway.

Here's some thoughts, much of it speculative of course..

Roleplaying Perspective.
As a LN worshipper of Abadar, there's nothing I can see wrong with charging that 10%. This is especially true if your character intends to tithe this to the church, or somehow use it to further the edicts of Abadar.
Perhaps it is the Lawful thing to do because otherwise you're not encouraging fair trade and the other item-crafters in the area cannot fairly compete because you're undercutting them all the time (etc etc)? I would have thought the Paladin would understand the fairness in that. That's just an example.
How's your characters relationships with the other characters? Are they friends, how closely aligned are their goals? This would have an impact on your reasons for doing this, and their reactions as characters.
The fact you're doing this because of your faith should be made obvious to the other characters - ALL of which have reasons to be more religious than your wizard anyway!

Metagaming Perspective.
Pathfinder is not a competitive game and therefore the natural assumption (as made clear by many response here) is that the characters are all working together. This is reflected by the fact that the other players are upset by any suggestion that you are using your feat, against them, for any kind of personal gain.
If your reason is purely to end up with a larger 'capital' than the rest of them, then it's easy to see why they are upset. This is based on the assumption that the economy of the game your playing is based purely on monetary gain through adventuring and that the distribution is equal. That equality breaks down when you ask for 10%.
This is essentially then becomes an argument of Communism verses Capitalism in a closed economy..
Do the other players understand your reasons for asking for 10%. Do they think it's for metagame reasons or roleplaying reasons? (I'm guessing the later 'he's being a jerk and wants to screw us out of our money!' etc.)

In summary, it seems to be that you have a Metagaming vs Roleplaying issue. From what I can tell you've made the decision to do this because of roleplaying and the players have responded because of the metagame impact.

Some possible solutions seem to be:
Explain the roleplaying reasons for your characters actions, and ask the players to consider the roleplaying responses of their characters (NOT them as players). Ask them what they do during down-time so you can compare.
Sure you could remind them that they would necessarily know (unless you told them in character) about the costs of item creation. But the players would know and that just leaves bad feeling around the gaming table - as it's then more noticable that from a metagaming perspective you're definitely trying to make money from them.
You could concede that the impact to the metagame, and the enjoyment of your fellow players, is more important than the roleplaying decision you've made and change your mind about it.

Finally, I don't think you were being 'a jerk' at all. I just think that there has been a break down in communication and the expectations of the players around the table are different from each other.

Have an honest chat with them, I'm sure you'll work it out.

At the end of the day, it IS only a game, and we're all playing it to have fun. :)

Shadow Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Banatine wrote:
Nezthalak wrote:
Does this thread need to continue?
It stopped 'needing to continue' about 500 posts ago, i think most of us are just still here for fun and profit! (or sheer bloody-mindedness!) :)

As long as we all profit from it equally. If the person who posts the most gets more out of it than other people, he's stealing the thread from them.


Quantum Steve wrote:
Selgard wrote:
We literally aren't worried about how much wealth each of us has in relation to the rest of the group. We just aren't. I realize others don't work that way.

Yeah. Imo, wealth, along with experience are the two fundamental measures the game uses to gauge PC power.

Though, I find it odd that you don't care how much wealth each of you has, yet if the crafter ends up having more than everyone else, you get bent out of shape.

Quote:


No character is going to sit there and let a crafter charge them extra.

Mine do. All the time. Fair is fair.

Quote:
There is no really elegant solution. Except to ignore SKR's ruling.

Or charge for crafting, or don't craft for the party.

For, me, I've always thought that giving up feats to craft should make the crafter wealth. Not necessarily money, but he should be better equipped than the rest of his party because he gave up the feat.

No one else gave up a feat, so they shouldn't be better equipped.

Otherwise, if I, and the rest of the party for that matter, could enjoy double wealth simply for having a crafter in the party, there's no reason to adventure with a caster that doesn't craft.

It's like a Fighter that doesn't drop enemies, or a Cleric that doesn't heal. If you're not going to do your job then your services are not wanted.

There is a difference in the crafter getting a good drop, and the crafter reaching into my pocket, taking my hard earned gold, and adding it to his wealth.

Him getting a good item when we kill the BBEG is his share of the loot.
Him charging me to craft is him taking my share of the loot, and tacking it onto his.
That, is where my objection lies.

You go from "well, it'll even out later when I get a good drop" to it being a cash cow for him at mine (and the other party members) expense.

You literally have one guy (the crafter) saying he's worth more than everyone else, and that he deserves a disporportional share of the loot due to that.
I disagree. Completely.
His time, effort, energy, class, skill, and feat selections, are absolutely worth no more to the group than everyone else's.

"but he made you something from it". Good! thank you!
tomorrow I'm going to kill something with it.
And the day after, and the day after.
And when we roll the corpse, you get your share of the loot. Not your share +10%.

-S


1 person marked this as a favorite.
beej67 wrote:

I ask this question again of the communists:

If your party bard does a performance in a tavern, and he earns 50 gold pieces from the crowd, do you DESCEND ON HIM LIKE VULTURES to get your cut?

The better argument is the Special Forces Team.

Let's imagine that Selgard is the combat medic in an elite unit stationed in Afghanistan and I'm another soldier in his unit. Along with the rest of our unit we go on regular combat patrols and occasionally are called on to take out high value targets. We all have each other's backs and wouldn't think twice risking our lives to help a teammate in combat.

Back home in the USA I make awesome custom sunglasses. Certainly sun glasses are important to have in a desert climate like Afghanistan and having quality sun glasses certainly helps during the fire fights that we get in with Taliban elements. Say a high quality pair of sunglasses costs $200 in raw materials and usually retails for $400. Back at base I can make sun glasses for my friends even though it eats up a considerable amount of time that I could be using to call my girlfriend back at home or write letters to my folks or just relax between missions.

In light of this I tell my squad mates that I'll make them sun glasses but not at cost. My sun glasses cost $230. Selgard the combat medic really doesn't like this, says that I'm stealing from the team by profiting from selling stuff to my squad mates. He's so upset that next time I'm injured in combat he refuses to give me medical aid because my selling sunglasses for $230 instead of at cost (and opposed to the $400 that they would usually fetch) doesn't align with his "squad first" mentality.

Then Selgard the combat medic goes on an extended tirade about how we all have a reasonable expectation to have wealth and that one soldier having more than the rest means that the other soldiers don't have as much to spend on gear and that the whole squad would be that much more effective with the gear that they could have bought if I hadn't charged them each an extra $30 for sunglasses whose materials only cost $200. This completely ignores the fact that if I hadn't offered to make them sunglasses, spending considerable amounts of time I could use keeping in touch with people back home, that they would be spending $400 for sunglasses instead of $230.

So who's in the right? Selgard the Combat Medic or Humhprey the maker of sun glasses?

If the only time that matters in your game is combat rounds then it's Selgard. If your game involves significant actions that require downtime then it's Humphrey. Either way the fact remains that you and your friends are playing a fantasy role-playing game and you can play it however you damn well please.


For all you pro-taking gold from the party for your crafting folk:

Why do crafters get to charge the group but its unreasonable for someone else to do the same?

Why can't Rodney Ranger or Bobby the Barbarian or Wendy the Wizard or whatever silly named people we come up with charge for their services too?

Answer me that, please.

When you are knee deep in the Dungeon of Doom and have 5 hp left and the cleric says "pay up or limp", why is he the bad guy here?

You keep calling me a communist- and I don't mind- but honestly. WHY are you trying to nickle and dime your buddies? WHY do you think you are so special that just for taking a feat, you deserve more money?

Forget WBl and all that crap, tell me why your character deserves my share of the loot just because you decided to take feat X instead of feat Y, where as if i chose feat A instead of feat B, I don't get to charge you?

I say whats good for the goose is good for the gander.
If Cindy Crafter starts charging the group, so should everyone else. Lets ditch the communist bandwagon and move straight on to Capitalizm.
Lets everyone charge for their group contributions. It'll be a straight up mercenary troupe then. Sound about right?

-S


Humphrey Boggard wrote:
Either way the fact remains that you and your friends are playing a fantasy role-playing game and you can play it however you damn well please.

HEY!

How are we gonna keep this thread going to 2000 posts if you go on talking like this! I demand a retraction immediately :)

:P

nah seriously, I do agree with this completely. Whatever your group is doing, is the right way. Its only an issue when someone makes it an issue. And even then- the group (not any one player) should be the deciding factor on how to handle it.
If the group is fine paying, then so be it. If not, then so be that too.

-S


Selgard wrote:

For all you pro-taking gold from the party for your crafting folk:

Why do crafters get to charge the group but its unreasonable for someone else to do the same?

Why can't Rodney Ranger or Bobby the Barbarian or Wendy the Wizard or whatever silly named people we come up with charge for their services too?

Answer me that, please.

When you are knee deep in the Dungeon of Doom and have 5 hp left and the cleric says "pay up or limp", why is he the bad guy here?

You keep calling me a communist- and I don't mind- but honestly. WHY are you trying to nickle and dime your buddies? WHY do you think you are so special that just for taking a feat, you deserve more money?

Forget WBl and all that crap, tell me why your character deserves my share of the loot just because you decided to take feat X instead of feat Y, where as if i chose feat A instead of feat B, I don't get to charge you?

I say whats good for the goose is good for the gander.
If Cindy Crafter starts charging the group, so should everyone else. Lets ditch the communist bandwagon and move straight on to Capitalizm.
Lets everyone charge for their group contributions. It'll be a straight up mercenary troupe then. Sound about right?

-S

Humphrey Boggard wrote:

In light of this I tell my squad mates that I'll make them sun glasses but not at cost. My sun glasses cost $230. Selgard the combat medic really doesn't like this, says that I'm stealing from the team by profiting from selling stuff to my squad mates. He's so upset that next time I'm injured in combat he refuses to give me medical aid because my selling sunglasses for $230 instead of at cost (and opposed to the $400 that they would usually fetch) doesn't align with his "squad first" mentality.

Then Selgard the combat medic goes on an extended tirade about how we all have a reasonable expectation to have wealth and that one soldier having more than the rest means that the other soldiers don't have as much to spend on gear and that the whole squad would be that much more effective with the gear that they could have bought if I hadn't charged them each an extra $30 for sunglasses whose materials only cost $200. This completely ignores the fact that if I hadn't offered to make them sunglasses, spending considerable amounts of time I could use keeping in touch with people back home, that they would be spending $400 for sunglasses instead of $230.

Wow, I guess we really have each other pegged after all this time thread sharing. The amazing this is that we both wrote this at the same time (I posted just slightly before Selgard).


beej67 wrote:

How very communist of you.

If I were a player in your game, I would make sure neither I nor anyone else took crafting feats, since you're just going to deprive us of treasure later as punishment for using them. Might as well spend the feat slots on something else, since you'll give us loot to force us onto the WBL table regardless.

Not only that, I'd donate huge stacks of cash to every NPC I met to buy favor. Maybe hire a dozen minstrels to follow me around, and watch the treasure from the monsters rise to compensate my poor money management.

What nonsense.

I don't know how SKR runs his games, and I don't really care, because the only way to sensibly use WBL is to use it to set loot and let players do whatever they want to with the loot they get. Running a game to take a 9th level party to 11? Set your loot by going (WBL11-WBL9)*(#players). Let them divy it how they see fit, and don't be a nazi about what they keep. It's the only way.

Ravingdork has it right as usual.

Why wouldn't you take crafting feats? By RAW crafting counts as cost for the crafter. Thus the crafter would benefit normally. The problem is when the other players are significantly above WBL due to the crafter crafting items for them. By my keeping track of the treasure the players have I can correct any major deviances. Recently I handed out treasure that was not equal in gp but tailored to individual characters so that a discrepancy was corrected. Rather simple to do really and everyone was happy.

- Gauss


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If we can't even come to an agreement on this, it's no wonder the tax system is so FUBAR.


Ravingdork wrote:
If we can't even come to an agreement on this, it's no wonder the tax system is so FUBAR.

Oh come on RD! You know very well that getting 2 people to agree on the internet is nigh on impossible much less 20 :)

I'm just happy folks are being adults and discussing it clearly. Whichever side you fall on, folks are being good and honest and having a solid discussion about how they feel on it. In the future, someone can do a search, read some posts, see the pro's and cons of either way (with a smattering of info about how the wbl system is silly) and come to their own conclusion.

Which is the point :)

-S

Shadow Lodge

Selgard wrote:

For all you pro-taking gold from the party for your crafting folk:

Why do crafters get to charge the group but its unreasonable for someone else to do the same?

Why can't Rodney Ranger or Bobby the Barbarian or Wendy the Wizard or whatever silly named people we come up with charge for their services too?

Answer me that, please.

When you are knee deep in the Dungeon of Doom and have 5 hp left and the cleric says "pay up or limp", why is he the bad guy here?

You keep calling me a communist- and I don't mind- but honestly. WHY are you trying to nickle and dime your buddies? WHY do you think you are so special that just for taking a feat, you deserve more money?

Forget WBl and all that crap, tell me why your character deserves my share of the loot just because you decided to take feat X instead of feat Y, where as if i chose feat A instead of feat B, I don't get to charge you?

I say whats good for the goose is good for the gander.
If Cindy Crafter starts charging the group, so should everyone else. Lets ditch the communist bandwagon and move straight on to Capitalizm.
Lets everyone charge for their group contributions. It'll be a straight up mercenary troupe then. Sound about right?

-S

I agree completely: if they do something during downtime that produces a tangible, lasting benefit, they should get paid. If the fighter builds a house for the party, everyone should kick in cost to build, and a little extra for the fighter who did the heavy lifting. For spells? Not unless they produce a tangible benefit. If they cleric casts resurrection and says, "I brought you back from the dead, you need to tithe 100gp to my church," that's reasonable. If the rogue needs money to bribe officials and wants a finders fee, that's reasonable.

It all comes out in the wash, in other words.

And I don't agree that WBL is crap. Are we not playing a game? Are there not rules?


Selgard wrote:

For all you pro-taking gold from the party for your crafting folk:

Why do crafters get to charge the group but its unreasonable for someone else to do the same?

Why can't Rodney Ranger or Bobby the Barbarian or Wendy the Wizard or whatever silly named people we come up with charge for their services too?

I will, and hopefully you'll answer me this time :-)

Rodney Ranger is offered from the Royal Cartographer's Guild an opportunity to do some mapping for them while he is on his next adventure. Is he obligated to tell the group and share the money from the job with them?

Bobby the Barbarian while passing through a village is recognized as being from the Wolf Slayers Tribe. He is offered a sum for him and his party to go slay the Wolf Master, and in addition, if he succeeds in this task, money will be given, and the Chief's Daughter's Hand in Marriage as well. Does he have to give up his share of treasure for the Girl, or does he have to shar.......

The party accepts the quest to get the Wolf Master, a couple of other NPCs ask particular PCs to do things....
Rocky the Rogue is asked to procure a particular Idol for the Thieve's Guild for a sizable sum.

Wendy the Wizard is told by the Mystic, that a particular Idol (yes, the same one) should not be messed with or removed from its resting place. If the item is not dealt with, she will give Wendy a scroll for her efforts.

Now, do all the PCs lump all the side projects, or do some of them keep those projects (and their rewards) to themselves?

One of the groups I play in, these situations do occur, and a number of them are kept under wraps, or downplayed in reward received (Ranger says he got 50gp for those maps when he got 500gp).

Have you never been in these kinds of situations, or do you 100% share everything out there?


Selgard wrote:
Realmwalker wrote:
Selgard wrote:
gnomersy wrote:
So out of curiosity when a crafter simply does not craft for you or when a caster chooses not to craft is he "robbing/gouging" you out of 50% of your WBL?

My WBL is modified regardless- its his that gets the break if you go by SKR's ruling.

But to more directly answer your question:

I guess that depends.
If I can keep an orc from killing the wizard, and I don't. Am I a jerk?
If the cleric could have healed you but didn't and you died, is he a jerk?
if.. well.. you get the idea.

If the crafter has the free time and I have the cash for the item and he just refuses not to craft for me- is that theft? No. But its a jerk move, and one that won't be forgotten. Needless to say, he won't be getting any favors from me.

And the jerk player can also expect not to get any favors from the rest of the group..

Its like this.
You are either part of the team.
or you aren't part of the team.

Your actions dictate which side of that fence you are on. If you are going to play a selfish character then expect the other characters to respond accordingly.
"but my character is.." .. a jerk. RP isn't an excuse to be a jerk, or a tool. Robbing your team of 10% because you decided to take a feat is just being a jerk. CAN you do it? Sure. CAN they make you wish you hadn't been a jerk? Absofreakinglutely.

They can also shrug and go along with it. Some folks do. Their decision.

But I wouldn't. If you don't act like part of the team, then you aren't part of the team.

-S

I disagree it is not a jerk move to charge 10% here is why, crafting takes time as well as gold, it requires both a feat tax and a skill tax both of which the crafter took even though a metamagic feat or some other feat would be more beneficial. Freddie the Fighter could have taken craft armor or weapon and master craftsman hell he has more feats to do it.

I play an alchemist and I charge the extra 10% for ma wands and potions mainly because I

...

Thing is they are not being robbed they are still getting the items well under cost. If Freddy the Fighter wanted a +2 Falcata so bad maybe he should have planned ahead and spent Skill Points on Craft (Weapon) and picked up the Master Craftsman Feat. To demand my Alchemist to make things at cost because I have spent the time to ensure I had what I was going to need and he did not is insulting.


Selgard wrote:

No because in reality here's how it goes.

"holy crap that guy is charging 40k for that item."
"yeah well, I can make it for you for 20k"
"no joke? thats awesome. Do you mind?"
"no not at all, it'll just take some time"
"thats awesome!" *gives the guy 20k gold"
*awhile later*
"here you go*
crafter gives him the item. The group gets a 40k item for 20k and they are all the better off for it.

So what if my character said he would make for 30k or even 25k? Is your character going to look at mine side-wise and know it really only costs 20k to make that item and protest or scheme to get me back somehow? Really? Who's the jerk here: they guy offering to make the same thing for less or because your character for protesting because he has some weird sixth sense about crafting costs since it'd take that as he's not a crafter himself?

Rofl...


Selgard wrote:

There is a difference in the crafter getting a good drop, and the crafter reaching into my pocket, taking my hard earned gold, and adding it to his wealth.

Him getting a good item when we kill the BBEG is his share of the loot.
Him charging me to craft is him taking my share of the loot, and tacking it onto his.
That, is where my objection lies.

You go from "well, it'll even out later when I get a good drop" to it being a cash cow for him at mine (and the other party members) expense.

You literally have one guy (the crafter) saying he's worth more than everyone else, and that he deserves a disporportional share of the loot due to that.
I disagree. Completely.
His time, effort, energy, class, skill, and feat selections, are absolutely worth no more to the group than everyone else's.

"but he made you something from it". Good! thank you!
tomorrow I'm going to kill something with it.
And the day after, and the day after.
And when we roll the corpse, you get your share of the loot. Not your share +10%.

-S

Do you just feel that a crafter shouldn't get extra wealth because he effectively "sold" one of his feats, so you don't want him to have it, or do you really not understand that by crafting for free the crafter is letting his party steal that extra wealth out of his pocket?


ZugZug wrote:
Selgard wrote:

For all you pro-taking gold from the party for your crafting folk:

Why do crafters get to charge the group but its unreasonable for someone else to do the same?

Why can't Rodney Ranger or Bobby the Barbarian or Wendy the Wizard or whatever silly named people we come up with charge for their services too?

I will, and hopefully you'll answer me this time :-)

Rodney Ranger is offered from the Royal Cartographer's Guild an opportunity to do some mapping for them while he is on his next adventure. Is he obligated to tell the group and share the money from the job with them?

Bobby the Barbarian while passing through a village is recognized as being from the Wolf Slayers Tribe. He is offered a sum for him and his party to go slay the Wolf Master, and in addition, if he succeeds in this task, money will be given, and the Chief's Daughter's Hand in Marriage as well. Does he have to give up his share of treasure for the Girl, or does he have to shar.......

The party accepts the quest to get the Wolf Master, a couple of other NPCs ask particular PCs to do things....
Rocky the Rogue is asked to procure a particular Idol for the Thieve's Guild for a sizable sum.

Wendy the Wizard is told by the Mystic, that a particular Idol (yes, the same one) should not be messed with or removed from its resting place. If the item is not dealt with, she will give Wendy a scroll for her efforts.

Now, do all the PCs lump all the side projects, or do some of them keep those projects (and their rewards) to themselves?

One of the groups I play in, these situations do occur, and a number of them are kept under wraps, or downplayed in reward received (Ranger says he got 50gp for those maps when he got 500gp).

Have you never been in these kinds of situations, or do you 100% share everything out there?

I'll toss in an example of my own- that actually happened.

5 PC's entered a drinking contest held by the house. Whoever drank house brew and remained standing, won!
Everyone entered, only one guy passed his safe.. woohoo! he got some free gold! that he kept to himself.

Now this is my opinion here:

In your examples the "quest giver" is talking to the individual- much like might happen in an MMO. (not saying you meant it that way, just go with me for a second). In an MMO i go complete a quest, turn it in, and bam i get gold, exp, and all that.. Yay me. If you are with me and have the quest, you get credit too.

But in a D&D game whats really yhappened is that the DM has used the varying members of the party to lay some adventure hooks.
Wendy comes back to the group and says "Hey guys, the mystic thinks we should go deal with this evil item".
the barbarian comes back and says "yeah, but we also need to deal with this wolf" and so on down the line of PC's.

So the group looks at their options, lines htme out in order of seeming importance (rightly or wrongly) and sets out to do them.. In so doing the group gets in pretty good with the locals, and all that.
Now clearly the one guy can't share his marriage :) thats a perk he just can't divide. (presumably. *cough*).

But the monetary rewards largely go to the party- for work that the party is doing.

Now your group may differ. Maybe the barbarian and the wizard each take off on their own to deal with their own personal little "big bad".
Assuming they survive, they come back and reap their personal reward.
So long as the DM was more or less doing that with everyone, I'd have no issue with it. (or if the DM was doing it to get those two back on track Xp and/or money wise because of a WBL issue or whatever).

I personally would advise against splitting up the group in that manner, but thats largely a preference of survival- its hardly a rule to enforce.

Aside from the drinking thing, no I haven't had someone get a personal quest that they went off and did without the group and all that.

From a practical stand point, how do you handle those time wise? in a pbp or pbm i could see it working out (since you can do something without wasting someone else's time) but otherwise- if you have 4 guy group and 4 individual quests.. do you have 4 different times the "group" meets and do the lil solo ones then?
or is the quest given to one guy but everyone helps with it then the one guy gives a lil white lie about the reward? (50gp guys honest, as he pockets the other 450)?

Sorry if I missed your question, btw. We've been blowing through a lot of forum pages lately. Didn't mean to ignore your post.

-S


Realmwalker wrote:
Selgard wrote:
Realmwalker wrote:
Selgard wrote:
gnomersy wrote:
So out of curiosity when a crafter simply does not craft for you or when a caster chooses not to craft is he "robbing/gouging" you out of 50% of your WBL?

My WBL is modified regardless- its his that gets the break if you go by SKR's ruling.

But to more directly answer your question:

I guess that depends.
If I can keep an orc from killing the wizard, and I don't. Am I a jerk?
If the cleric could have healed you but didn't and you died, is he a jerk?
if.. well.. you get the idea.

If the crafter has the free time and I have the cash for the item and he just refuses not to craft for me- is that theft? No. But its a jerk move, and one that won't be forgotten. Needless to say, he won't be getting any favors from me.

And the jerk player can also expect not to get any favors from the rest of the group..

Its like this.
You are either part of the team.
or you aren't part of the team.

Your actions dictate which side of that fence you are on. If you are going to play a selfish character then expect the other characters to respond accordingly.
"but my character is.." .. a jerk. RP isn't an excuse to be a jerk, or a tool. Robbing your team of 10% because you decided to take a feat is just being a jerk. CAN you do it? Sure. CAN they make you wish you hadn't been a jerk? Absofreakinglutely.

They can also shrug and go along with it. Some folks do. Their decision.

But I wouldn't. If you don't act like part of the team, then you aren't part of the team.

-S

I disagree it is not a jerk move to charge 10% here is why, crafting takes time as well as gold, it requires both a feat tax and a skill tax both of which the crafter took even though a metamagic feat or some other feat would be more beneficial. Freddie the Fighter could have taken craft armor or weapon and master craftsman hell he has more feats to do it.

I play an alchemist and I charge the extra 10% for ma wands and potions

...

To me, its insulting for you to expect me to pay you for using your character skills and feats on my behalf.

Can the cleric charge you for his heals too? I mean come on, he'll cut you a break.. he'll only charge you 10% the going rate an NPC cleric would charge you.

Can the ranger charge you? He'll charge you 20% of what it'd cost to get an equivalently skilled person out there for days to track the critters for you.
or to pepper the baddies with arrows, or beat them with a sword.

Can the wizard charge you? Oh baby he's gonna get rich quick! Every spell? man thats going to add up!

The fact is: Everything that everyone does, they are "giving a price break" to the party for. They are doing it *for nothing*. For what it cost them. They are all banking on the fact that the profit comes from the bad guys they roll.
If one guy gets to roll the party for cash, everyone should. The craft doesn't get special consideration. He's not MVP, he's not mr special pants. He's a member of the group just like everyone else.

You want to charge? Fine. Charge. When everyone else ditches their price break and starts charging too, then things will get interesting.

-S


Quantum Steve wrote:
Selgard wrote:

There is a difference in the crafter getting a good drop, and the crafter reaching into my pocket, taking my hard earned gold, and adding it to his wealth.

Him getting a good item when we kill the BBEG is his share of the loot.
Him charging me to craft is him taking my share of the loot, and tacking it onto his.
That, is where my objection lies.

You go from "well, it'll even out later when I get a good drop" to it being a cash cow for him at mine (and the other party members) expense.

You literally have one guy (the crafter) saying he's worth more than everyone else, and that he deserves a disporportional share of the loot due to that.
I disagree. Completely.
His time, effort, energy, class, skill, and feat selections, are absolutely worth no more to the group than everyone else's.

"but he made you something from it". Good! thank you!
tomorrow I'm going to kill something with it.
And the day after, and the day after.
And when we roll the corpse, you get your share of the loot. Not your share +10%.

-S

Do you just feel that a crafter shouldn't get extra wealth because he effectively "sold" one of his feats, so you don't want him to have it, or do you really not understand that by crafting for free the crafter is letting his party steal that extra wealth out of his pocket?

What I disagree with is that the party has to pay for whatever benefit he gets. Do me a favor: Find me one other feat that someone can take that lets the party direct gold from the party and into his pocket as profit.

If it doesn't start with Craft: then it doesn't exist.
I disagree with the notion that someone can say "I chose X feat, give me your gold".
No, you chose X feat. That doesn't mean you get my gold.

Going back to what i just said in the previous post:
if someone takes X feat and uses taht feat for the benefit of the group can they charge the group for it?
Yes.
No.

What the feat is is entirely irrelevant.

Either you can charge the group for using your feats or you can't.

People on this thread want to give the craft feats some special dispensation over other feats that lets them siphon money from the pockets of other characters.

Other people are saying absolutely not. There are no feats that let one character siphon someone else's gold away.

Your issue is with the WBL rules. Not with your party members. Take it up with the DM. Not the other party members. You selected a feat. Use that feat for yourself, and for the group. (no one is saying you can't make use of the feat for yourself). Just like *every other member of the party is doing*.

Let the DM bother with WBL. Quit using it as a club to beat the crap out of the other players with.
WBL is just a method for him to balance encounters with anyway.

-S

Shadow Lodge

Selgard wrote:
Now clearly the one guy can't share his marriage :) thats a perk he just can't divide. (presumably. *cough*).

This is a perfect example. Earlier in the thread, I demonstrated that the "gold" the crafter "gains" is pure fluff. You must have agreed, or you wold have tried to prove me wrong. If the character's wife is fluff, too, then he should share her with the party, just like the crafter should share the frutis of his labor. Same principle.

And if the PC doesn't want to share her? Too bad. He shouldn't have taken a wife.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Selgard wrote:

Do me a favor: Find me one other feat that someone can take that lets the party direct gold from the party and into his pocket as profit.

If it doesn't start with Craft: then it doesn't exist.

Brew Potion, Forge Ring, Scribe Scroll. :P


Ravingdork wrote:
Selgard wrote:

Do me a favor: Find me one other feat that someone can take that lets the party direct gold from the party and into his pocket as profit.

If it doesn't start with Craft: then it doesn't exist.
Brew Potion, Forge Ring, Scribe Scroll. :P

Beat me to it my mere seconds.

Shadow Lodge

Quote:

I disagree with the notion that someone can say "I chose X feat, give me your gold".

No, you chose X feat. That doesn't mean you get my gold.

And other people disagree with the notion that someone can say, "you took a crafting feat, so I deserve to have twice as much relative wealth as you do. And you have to make it for me, or you're a jerk."

"Let the DM worry about it" is a cop out, especially when you claim that the DM can't fix it by implementing the rules as written about buying and selling itmes, because it messes with your character. Meanwhile, a player could "mess with" another character by turning them into their crafting monkey, applying social pressure to force them to comply and not letting them play their character as intended, regardless of whether or not the DM "takes care" of wealth to make sure that the crafter isn't costing you anything by charging. Don't you think that's a little hypocritical?


Selgard wrote:
Quantum Steve wrote:


Do you just feel that a crafter shouldn't get extra wealth because he effectively "sold" one of his feats, so you don't want him to have it, or do you really not understand that by crafting for free the crafter is letting his party steal that extra wealth out of his pocket?

What I disagree with is that the party has to pay for whatever benefit he gets. Do me a favor: Find me one other feat that someone can take that lets the party direct gold from the party and into his pocket as profit.

If it doesn't start with Craft: then it doesn't exist.
I disagree with the notion that someone can say "I chose X feat, give me your gold".
No, you chose X feat. That doesn't mean you get my gold.

Going back to what i just said in the previous post:
if someone takes X feat and uses taht feat for the benefit of the group can they charge the group for it?
Yes.
No.

What the feat is is entirely irrelevant.

Either you can charge the group for using your feats or you can't.

People on this thread want to give the craft feats some special dispensation over other feats that lets them siphon money from the pockets of other characters.

Other people are saying absolutely not. There are no feats that let one character siphon someone else's gold away.

Your issue is with the WBL rules. Not with your party members. Take it up with the DM. Not the other party members. You selected a feat. Use that feat for yourself, and for the group. (no one is saying you can't make use of the feat for yourself). Just like *every other member of the party is doing*.

Let the DM bother with WBL. Quit using it as a club to beat the crap out of the other players with.
WBL is just a method for him to balance encounters with anyway.

-S

That doesn't answer my question at all, so I'm going to assume you just don't understand.

Next question, would you like me to try to explain it to you again, or are you sufficiently blissful in your lack of understanding?

Edit: Darn. Something came up and I gotta go away. But, I'll be back in the morning, err.. 10-12 or so hours from now, if you still need help. :)


Selgard wrote:
Quantum Steve wrote:
Selgard wrote:
We literally aren't worried about how much wealth each of us has in relation to the rest of the group. We just aren't. I realize others don't work that way.

Yeah. Imo, wealth, along with experience are the two fundamental measures the game uses to gauge PC power.

Though, I find it odd that you don't care how much wealth each of you has, yet if the crafter ends up having more than everyone else, you get bent out of shape.

Quote:


No character is going to sit there and let a crafter charge them extra.

Mine do. All the time. Fair is fair.

Quote:
There is no really elegant solution. Except to ignore SKR's ruling.

Or charge for crafting, or don't craft for the party.

For, me, I've always thought that giving up feats to craft should make the crafter wealth. Not necessarily money, but he should be better equipped than the rest of his party because he gave up the feat.

No one else gave up a feat, so they shouldn't be better equipped.

Otherwise, if I, and the rest of the party for that matter, could enjoy double wealth simply for having a crafter in the party, there's no reason to adventure with a caster that doesn't craft.

It's like a Fighter that doesn't drop enemies, or a Cleric that doesn't heal. If you're not going to do your job then your services are not wanted.

There is a difference in the crafter getting a good drop, and the crafter reaching into my pocket, taking my hard earned gold, and adding it to his wealth.

Him getting a good item when we kill the BBEG is his share of the loot.
Him charging me to craft is him taking my share of the loot, and tacking it onto his.
That, is where my objection lies.

You go from "well, it'll even out later when I get a good drop" to it being a cash cow for him at mine (and the other party members) expense.

You literally have one guy (the crafter) saying he's worth more than everyone else, and that he deserves a disporportional share of the loot due to that.
I...

I want you to consider that even though they're making a 10% profit they're probably a caster. Casters don't get as much personal use out of wealth as martial classes do. On top of that the person ordering the crafted item is effectively gaining wealth as well. The item is normally worth more than what they pay for. Characters that are taking crafting feats don't plan on becoming craft servants for the party if that makes sense. The reason why a fighter doesn't charge money for each swing he makes is because he's already making money off of his loot. Same with any other character that plays in pathfinder. They're not stealing from you they're giving you a deal that's quite generous. Unless you consider discounts stealing.

Shadow Lodge

The more I think about it, the more I like the wife analogy. If another character is willing to share his (or her) wife, the crafter should make the item at cost. That is 100% fair to everyone.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32

I pray you, remember the crafter.

I haven't read all 1000 posts leading up to this one, but if it comes to a vote, mark me down for letting the crafter charge, and I've played it on both sides of the question. As a non-crafter, I'm getting an item at the discount, and as a crafter, I'm being compensated for my time, and if I'm a wizard, I basically pay rent on being alive anyway, so a 10% surcharge is an extra scroll in the haversack (which everyone in the party has one of, you're welcome). Seems perfectly reasonable to me. What does the party think the crafter is going to do with that money anyway? He'll put it back into the party in the long run.


Ravingdork wrote:
Selgard wrote:

Do me a favor: Find me one other feat that someone can take that lets the party direct gold from the party and into his pocket as profit.

If it doesn't start with Craft: then it doesn't exist.
Brew Potion, Forge Ring, Scribe Scroll. :P

pfffts :P

smartass!
:)

-S


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Selgard wrote:

For all you pro-taking gold from the party for your crafting folk:

Why do crafters get to charge the group but its unreasonable for someone else to do the same?

Why can't Rodney Ranger or Bobby the Barbarian or Wendy the Wizard or whatever silly named people we come up with charge for their services too?

Answer me that, please.

I thought that we had cleared this up pages ago.

The crafter is contributing in combat too, doing their job. It is a wash for fees in that case, as if everyone charges, then in the long run the fees cancel each other out.

I do wish that the free crafter crowd would stop trying to use this argument (Rogue charges per backstack and open lock use, fighter for blocking and using power attack, cleric for healing and buffs, etc..). I find it especially annoying when the example is of a cleric witholding life saving healing - not only is it one the cleric's combat roles, often the crafter is the cleric.


Doram ob'Han wrote:


And other people disagree with the notion that someone can say, "you took a crafting feat, so I deserve to have twice as much relative wealth as you do. And you have to make it for me, or you're a jerk."

I am really tired of this BS strawman argument.

NOBODY IS SAYING THIS!

And even if they did all you have to do is say

"Hell NO!" Nobody can FORCE you to craft for them.

The only people I see claiming this is the people who are trying to justify taking the feat and charging their "friends".

If you are playing with people who want to turn you into a crafting slave DON'T TAKE THE DAMN FEAT.

Is that so hard?

But I don't believe this at all. This is just a way to claim that the "other side" is the "bad guy."

I play this game all the time with all sorts of crafters. I have NEVER ONCE demanded that anyone make anything FOR ME.

And nobody has ever done that to me when I have crafting feats.

If this is happening to you, maybe you need to find a higher class of playmates.


Quantum Steve wrote:
Selgard wrote:
Quantum Steve wrote:


Do you just feel that a crafter shouldn't get extra wealth because he effectively "sold" one of his feats, so you don't want him to have it, or do you really not understand that by crafting for free the crafter is letting his party steal that extra wealth out of his pocket?

What I disagree with is that the party has to pay for whatever benefit he gets. Do me a favor: Find me one other feat that someone can take that lets the party direct gold from the party and into his pocket as profit.

If it doesn't start with Craft: then it doesn't exist.
I disagree with the notion that someone can say "I chose X feat, give me your gold".
No, you chose X feat. That doesn't mean you get my gold.

Going back to what i just said in the previous post:
if someone takes X feat and uses taht feat for the benefit of the group can they charge the group for it?
Yes.
No.

What the feat is is entirely irrelevant.

Either you can charge the group for using your feats or you can't.

People on this thread want to give the craft feats some special dispensation over other feats that lets them siphon money from the pockets of other characters.

Other people are saying absolutely not. There are no feats that let one character siphon someone else's gold away.

Your issue is with the WBL rules. Not with your party members. Take it up with the DM. Not the other party members. You selected a feat. Use that feat for yourself, and for the group. (no one is saying you can't make use of the feat for yourself). Just like *every other member of the party is doing*.

Let the DM bother with WBL. Quit using it as a club to beat the crap out of the other players with.
WBL is just a method for him to balance encounters with anyway.

-S

That doesn't answer my question at all, so I'm going to assume you just don't understand.

Next question, would you like me to try to explain it to you again, or are you sufficiently blissful in your lack of understanding?

Edit:...

I guess I disagree with the premise that the party is stealing anything out of the crafter's pocket. The crafter picks Craft Wonderous item. He makes himself a headband of (whatever). Nothing stolen yet?

Fighter comes up and asked for a belt of con +2. forks over the requisite gold. Next day at camp, he covers the crafter's share of the camp duties while dude makes the belt. (several days, whatever).
When he's done, he gives the fighter the belt.

I'm unsure where the fighter is stealing anything from the crafter at all. He's asking the crafter to use a feat on his behalf- but if it was a healer and the fighter was injured he'd have used that guy's resources too.. or a buff in combat, or when the whoever casts something in combat or whatever.

I guess I don't see a transfer of wealth either direction unless
1) the fighter isn't paying the 2k (or whateveR) for the item.. in which case, he needs to jump off a cliff.
or 2) the crafter is charging 2200 instead of 2k.. in which case, the cliff is his to jump.

Assuming the fighter is paying for what CC is crafting, I don't see the "wealth shift" you are talking about.

RAW does talk about the crafter getting double WBL.
It also says that when Fighter pays 4k, he really gets charged 8k so its a wash for him. He loses out on 4k loot later to make up for it. (by RAW)

I'm not content to be ignorant. :) If I'm missing something, I'd rather be informed than not. Blissful ignorance is a myth. I prefer knowledge, even if it proves me wrong, to being ignorant.

-S


Mistwalker wrote:
Selgard wrote:

For all you pro-taking gold from the party for your crafting folk:

Why do crafters get to charge the group but its unreasonable for someone else to do the same?

Why can't Rodney Ranger or Bobby the Barbarian or Wendy the Wizard or whatever silly named people we come up with charge for their services too?

Answer me that, please.

I thought that we had cleared this up pages ago.

You were wrong. You ASSERTING this does not make it so. THe fundamental issue of "I have something you want, if you want it, you have to pay me" is JUST AS VALID for the healer as the crafter.

Mistwalker wrote:
The crafter is contributing in combat too, doing their job. It is a wash for fees in that case, as if everyone charges, then in the long run the fees cancel each other out.

Good, you finally get the point. It's a wash. So why charge at all in the first place? It's just a bunch of needless paperwork for no purpose.

Mistwalker wrote:
I do wish that the free crafter crowd would stop trying to use this argument (Rogue charges per backstack and open lock use, fighter for blocking and using power attack, cleric for healing and buffs, etc..). I find it especially annoying when the example is of a cleric witholding life saving healing - not only is it one the cleric's combat roles, often the crafter is the cleric.

The argument annoys you because it's a perfectly valid one. That's why you continue to ASSERT that it's been rebutted when it has not.

It is an absolutely rock solid valid argument. I'll repeat it.

"I have something you want. You can pay full price from a merchant or I can sell it to you at a 'discount' so that you get a deal, and I make some cash."

You want to say that crafters alone can do this.

Play with me Mistwalker. Watch me. You'll learn who else can do the same thing.


Mistwalker wrote:
Selgard wrote:

For all you pro-taking gold from the party for your crafting folk:

Why do crafters get to charge the group but its unreasonable for someone else to do the same?

Why can't Rodney Ranger or Bobby the Barbarian or Wendy the Wizard or whatever silly named people we come up with charge for their services too?

Answer me that, please.

I thought that we had cleared this up pages ago.

The crafter is contributing in combat too, doing their job. It is a wash for fees in that case, as if everyone charges, then in the long run the fees cancel each other out.

I do wish that the free crafter crowd would stop trying to use this argument (Rogue charges per backstack and open lock use, fighter for blocking and using power attack, cleric for healing and buffs, etc..). I find it especially annoying when the example is of a cleric witholding life saving healing - not only is it one the cleric's combat roles, often the crafter is the cleric.

You and I are just going to disagree on it, thats all.

What you are essentially saying is this:
I am a cleric.
I chose extra channeling as my feat. I can't charge you for it because its covered under my responsibilities by the group to use it on your behalf.

but

I am a cleric. i chose craft arms and armor.
I can charge you for it, because its not covered under my responsibilties to use it for the group's behalf.

My answer is:
If you choose to let your character do something, then all else being equal (i.e. no slavery involved, you are taking down time with the group, and everything else that's been discussed for the past 700 posts or so), then no- you don't get to charge us for your decision to take feat X instead of feat Y. And if you do then we get to charge you for our character creation options too.

You are basically saying by taking a crafting feat you are able to do something outside the social contract of the group. I'm saying, no it isn't. It doesn't make you my slave, it doesn't force you to be the crafting whore to the group- but it also doesn't mean you get to start looting the group to use your ability on their behalf.

-S


Adamantine Dragon wrote:


It is an absolutely rock solid valid argument.

With giant glow in the dark holes.

Edit: The anti-chargers seem to be addressing a single subset of huge variety of situations and ignoring many variables and various differing qualities between usage of a given ability i.e power attack or healing and donating a massive amount of time to amplify another party members power.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

I'm picking on you Selgard because you are the self-admitted thread leader of the free crafter crowd.
:)

Selgard wrote:

You are already benefitting personally from your feat to the extent that you care to at the moment- is there really any good reason not to help your group-mate to get better? No reason but greed.

There is often more than one reason, not simply greed. I have the impression that you have a fixation with that angle and only see that one.

I have had crafters that used the fee to provide the funds to run an orphanage, or temple, etc. There's one.

I have had crafters that used the fee to make sure that they had extra items to enable them to maintain their lifestyle (noble blood, to good for corse wool, only the best and preferably silken)(OK, that one may be a bit of greed). There's one point five

I have had crafters that have had to make sure that they had the necessary items to bail the group out when their overly optomistic view of the situation bit them on their posteriors (last thread on this subject when I mentioned this, I was fairly well roasted, saying that "their" characters didn't need another PC to play mother too them - even if they did). There's another one.

Selgard wrote:
IC its not about the 100 gold fee. Its about trust, and having issues with the guy beside you who thinks he's worth more than he's worth. Its about a guy who is so greedy that he's going to charge the group money for things he should be doing for free. Its about wondering if you can really trust this guy or not- since if he's that incredibly greedy, what other lows will he stoop to?

IC how can I trust someone who thinks that they are so much morally higher than me, that are strting to dispise me because I won't spend days/weeks working for free, for what they say is the greater good of the group. Someone who is so increadibly centered on the greater good, how can you trust them not to sacrifice you or other lows, if they believe that it is in the greater good?


Jak the Looney Alchemist wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:


It is an absolutely rock solid valid argument.
With giant glow in the dark holes.

Play with me Jak. Then show me the holes when I tell you "want a heal? 50 gold. Or no heal."

There are no holes Jak. It's a behavior thing. If you can do it, I can do it. If you do it to me, I can do it to you.

Watch me Jak.

Play with me. We'll see how it works out.

Heals, 50 gold, or you can go buy your own potions and lug them around.

No skin off my nose Jak. Why do you insist that I be your heal slave anyway?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Doram ob'Han wrote:


And other people disagree with the notion that someone can say, "you took a crafting feat, so I deserve to have twice as much relative wealth as you do. And you have to make it for me, or you're a jerk."

I am really tired of this BS strawman argument.

NOBODY IS SAYING THIS!

And even if they did all you have to do is say

"Hell NO!" Nobody can FORCE you to craft for them.

The only people I see claiming this is the people who are trying to justify taking the feat and charging their "friends".

If you are playing with people who want to turn you into a crafting slave DON'T TAKE THE DAMN FEAT.

Is that so hard?

But I don't believe this at all. This is just a way to claim that the "other side" is the "bad guy."

I play this game all the time with all sorts of crafters. I have NEVER ONCE demanded that anyone make anything FOR ME.

And nobody has ever done that to me when I have crafting feats.

If this is happening to you, maybe you need to find a higher class of playmates.

Selguard wrote:
Then you, the wizard, will be left behind the next time we go adventuring beacuse you lack that requisite team mentality

There were several others on the free crafting side of the argument.


Is there any reason to argue with a fanatic AD? The holes have been presented numerous times. Your rather excitable insistence does not remove their existence from the opposing side's perspective.

I will however mock you and heal myself thank you very much. Every caster in the game has access to heal spells.

Edit: I doubt you'd want to play with me. Most characters I play would charge in most situations. If you decided not to heal me when I was low on health when you were playing the designated group healer because you didn't want to pay my charge fee I'd make a group motion to deny you your cut of the treasure for failing to fulfill your healer duties. If it passes, which in most groups I've played in it would, no problems. If it failed your character wouldn't wake up one morning and depending on the group I'd find a new one.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Mistwalker wrote:
I thought that we had cleared this up pages ago.

You were wrong. You ASSERTING this does not make it so. THe fundamental issue of "I have something you want, if you want it, you have to pay me" is JUST AS VALID for the healer as the crafter.

Mistwalker wrote:
The crafter is contributing in combat too, doing their job. It is a wash for fees in that case, as if everyone charges, then in the long run the fees cancel each other out.

Good, you finally get the point. It's a wash. So why charge at all in the first place? It's just a bunch of needless paperwork for no purpose.

Mistwalker wrote:
I do wish that the free crafter crowd would stop trying to use this argument (Rogue charges per backstack and open lock use, fighter for blocking and using power attack, cleric for healing and buffs, etc..). I find it especially annoying when the example is of a cleric witholding life saving healing - not only is it one the cleric's combat roles, often the crafter is the cleric.

The argument annoys you because it's a perfectly valid one. That's why you continue to ASSERT that it's been rebutted when it has not.

It is an absolutely rock solid valid argument. I'll repeat it.

"I have something you want. You can pay full price from a merchant or I can sell it to you at a 'discount' so that you get a deal, and I make some cash."

You want to say that crafters alone can do this.

Play with me Mistwalker. Watch me. You'll learn who else can do the same thing.

It's a wash in combat. The crafting takes place out of combat.

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