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Creating magical item for the party + small fee on the work = players uprorar?


Advice

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Just a little question to the pro-charging crowd:

say my non-crafter doesn't have enough money to pay the 5% more (need a little base cash for daily expenses and stuff)

- would your crafter not craft the item till my character has all the money?
- would your crafter insist on my character loaning the money and being indebted? (knowing that I HATE loans because: money between friends = broken friendship)
- would your crafter accept a favor-for-a-favor deal? say wally-wizard agrees to craft the item for betty-bard and while he's crafting, she'll be out getting some obsucre book from that pesky noble. Since wally-wizard dumped his charisma to boost his int, he can't convince the noble, but the noble is too enthralled by betty-bard to refuse her anything

of course this is just a silly example...
but in the end my question is:
would all those reward-greedy crafters accept a favor as payment instead of shiny gold pieces?

because that's how we usually handle stuff in my good-aligned groups: help each other instead of pay each other...
you know, the way friends do it: he might fix my plumbing while I fix his computer...

well at least that how my group of friends do it, no money between us, money only leads to bad blood between friends
while buying a pizza or dinner or party will be smiled upon and even encouraged, giving a little extra money will actually be frowned upon


Diego Rossi wrote:


No doubt, I can be your mirror, but look your past posts, not only to me, they show the same kind of tone.

you avoided the question :)

BTW, diego, you grossly misrepresented my position. its not that it will never happen, but if your gm will not give your camp 4 hours of quiet time, then your GM is being kind of a dick. anyone without a ring of sustenance can't get a full night's sleep.

so the idea for the low level party out in the field. maybe the guy doesn't have a ring and is sitting in the back of a wagon as the party is travelling. this would be distracting as it would cause a concentration check. if the characters camp for 8 hours, the crafter should have time to craft things and sleep on the road if he doesn't have guard duty. unless the party is attacked every night, he should get at least 4 hours of crafting each night. Assuming a crafter, he probably does 1 craft skill as he is low level, maybe two, and has spent 1/10th of his wealth getting the 2 portable toolsets (or less depending on the GM's interpretation)

but yeah, if your GM doesn't want you to craft, he should just be honest and that solves all problems


gnomersy wrote:
dragonfire8974 wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:

If you're a cleric than you MUST BE A HEALBOT. If you're not, than you're an extortionist or an asshat. If you are a spellcaster with item creation feats than you MUST BE THE PARTY CRAFTER. If not, you're a thief or a jerk.

F3ck that. If I'm either of those, it's because I choose to be. I'll not have anyone dictating MY character, not even the GM*

This thread is BEYOND twisted in its logic.

** spoiler omitted **

i don't think anyone is saying that you can't play your character the way you want. and if your group is okay with you charging 10% over, that fine. it is double dipping into the loot, but as long as you are fine with that, have a great game!

i said before to someone who was a crafter who charged 15% to tithe to the church, i would be okay with that as it further's his character's concept and wasn't a grab to become more powerful than the other pcs.

Dr. Gecko talked about creating consumables with that extra 10%, In game i would be okay with that. but that crafter isn't entitled it just because he got the feat

Bah I still disagree the faq clearly states that like all other feats in the game crafting should increase personal power in this case it's meant to increase personal wealth. The issue is that the feat is essentially one which can vastly unbalance the rest of the party if you let them partake of it.

Edit: Missed the last post, yes if everything is pure gold that's true except so is everyone else so he drops the gold drops to half to level everyone else and indirectly hits the crafter down to their WBL too.

right, i was assuming the crafter would just craft for themselves


Kyoni wrote:

Just a little question to the pro-charging crowd:

say my non-crafter doesn't have enough money to pay the 5% more (need a little base cash for daily expenses and stuff)

- would your crafter not craft the item till my character has all the money?
- would your crafter insist on my character loaning the money and being indebted? (knowing that I HATE loans because: money between friends = broken friendship)
- would your crafter accept a favor-for-a-favor deal? say wally-wizard agrees to craft the item for betty-bard and while he's crafting, she'll be out getting some obsucre book from that pesky noble. Since wally-wizard dumped his charisma to boost his int, he can't convince the noble, but the noble is too enthralled by betty-bard to refuse her anything

of course this is just a weird example of my hat...
but in the end my question is:
would all those reward-greedy crafters accept a favor as payment instead of shiny gold pieces?

because that's how we usually handle stuff in my good-aligned groups: help each other instead of pay each other...
you know, the way friends do it: he might fix my plumbing while I fix his computer...

well at least that how my group of friends do it, no money between us, money only leads to bad blood between friends
while buying a pizza or dinner or party will be smiled upon and even encouraged, giving a little extra money will actually be frowned upon

It better be a good favor. But yes, I would accept a favor. At my choosing and time, if you can't refuse it (like the godfather).

And you keep your word about the number of favors you owe if you repeatly ask for no fee.


beej67 wrote:
Dr Grecko wrote:
beej67 wrote:
I do this with my party and don't even tell them. I sell them items "at cost" and keep the 5% I earn off Hedge Magician. Everyone wins.
When you say you don't tell them.. Do you keep it from the players OOC as well, or is it just in game that you keep it from the characters?

Both. How do their characters even know what a "Hedge Magician" is? All "hedge magician" means is you've got some spare regs left over after you craft something.

I do actually think I've mentioned it to a couple of other players though. They just shrugged.

Selgard wrote:
beej67 wrote:
I do this with my party and don't even tell them. I sell them items "at cost" and keep the 5% I earn off Hedge Magician. Everyone wins.

Just outta curiousity:

When they do find out you are stealin their gold.. what do you expect their reaction to be?

I'm not "stealing" anything. They paid me a sum for an item and I'm giving them the item they paid for, at the price they agreed to pay for, which is as good a price as they could get from anyone else. That's not "stealing" in any conceivable sense of the word.

Quote:
Much like the rogue swiping a gold sceptre before the party gets to the loot pile

It is in no way whatsoever remotely like stealing a gold sceptre from the top of a loot pile. If they don't want to pay me to craft their boots of speed, they can pay someone else to craft their boots of speed, and they'll be paying the same number. "Traits" are not an in-game concept, they are an out-of-game concept. If someone in your game were to look at you and say "But you didn't tell me you were a hedge magician!" then they're a terrible role player, and I wouldn't game with them. If they continued to get their panties in a wad over it, I'd dump the trait and get a +1 Will Save instead.

If you tell someone you are making an item for cost, and you are really making a profit off the item, you are stealing their money.

"hey guys, this item costs me 500 gold to craft" when it really costs you 450? Is stealing 50 gold from them.

-S


Kyoni wrote:

Just a little question to the pro-charging crowd:

say my non-crafter doesn't have enough money to pay the 5% more (need a little base cash for daily expenses and stuff)

- would your crafter not craft the item till my character has all the money?
- would your crafter insist on my character loaning the money and being indebted? (knowing that I HATE loans because: money between friends = broken friendship)
- would your crafter accept a favor-for-a-favor deal? say wally-wizard agrees to craft the item for betty-bard and while he's crafting, she'll be out getting some obsucre book from that pesky noble. Since wally-wizard dumped his charisma to boost his int, he can't convince the noble, but the noble is too enthralled by betty-bard to refuse her anything

of course this is just a weird example of my hat...
but in the end my question is:
would all those reward-greedy crafters accept a favor as payment instead of shiny gold pieces?

because that's how we usually handle stuff in my good-aligned groups: help each other instead of pay each other...
you know, the way friends do it: he might fix my plumbing while I fix his computer...

well at least that how my group of friends do it, no money between us, money only leads to bad blood between friends
while buying a pizza or dinner or party will be smiled upon and even encouraged, giving a little extra money will actually be frowned upon

In character yes out of character it still borks the WBL balance ratios but I'd accept the favor deal since it makes sense for my character. Although I'd still take the other 50% that it costed, if you didn't have that well I'm not going to pay out of pocket for your stuff obviously.

Regardless that's a personal thing I mean if that's how you handle your friendships then cool but it isn't the only way.


Selgard wrote:
beej67 wrote:
Dr Grecko wrote:
beej67 wrote:
I do this with my party and don't even tell them. I sell them items "at cost" and keep the 5% I earn off Hedge Magician. Everyone wins.
When you say you don't tell them.. Do you keep it from the players OOC as well, or is it just in game that you keep it from the characters?

Both. How do their characters even know what a "Hedge Magician" is? All "hedge magician" means is you've got some spare regs left over after you craft something.

I do actually think I've mentioned it to a couple of other players though. They just shrugged.

Selgard wrote:
beej67 wrote:
I do this with my party and don't even tell them. I sell them items "at cost" and keep the 5% I earn off Hedge Magician. Everyone wins.

Just outta curiousity:

When they do find out you are stealin their gold.. what do you expect their reaction to be?

I'm not "stealing" anything. They paid me a sum for an item and I'm giving them the item they paid for, at the price they agreed to pay for, which is as good a price as they could get from anyone else. That's not "stealing" in any conceivable sense of the word.

Quote:
Much like the rogue swiping a gold sceptre before the party gets to the loot pile

It is in no way whatsoever remotely like stealing a gold sceptre from the top of a loot pile. If they don't want to pay me to craft their boots of speed, they can pay someone else to craft their boots of speed, and they'll be paying the same number. "Traits" are not an in-game concept, they are an out-of-game concept. If someone in your game were to look at you and say "But you didn't tell me you were a hedge magician!" then they're a terrible role player, and I wouldn't game with them. If they continued to get their panties in a wad over it, I'd dump the trait and get a +1 Will Save instead.

If you tell someone you are making an item for cost, and you are really making a profit off the item, you are stealing...

which of course, you can fix in game by just asking the party if they mind you taking 5% for yourself


dragonfire8974 wrote:
Selgard wrote:


If you tell someone you are making an item for cost, and you are really making a profit off the item, you are stealing...
which of course, you can fix in game by just asking the party if they mind you taking 5% for yourself

I mind.


Adamantine Dragon wrote:
dragonfire8974 wrote:
Selgard wrote:


If you tell someone you are making an item for cost, and you are really making a profit off the item, you are stealing...
which of course, you can fix in game by just asking the party if they mind you taking 5% for yourself
I mind.

then you get that 50gp/1000 back :) that simple


dragonfire8974 wrote:
which of course, you can fix in game by just asking the party if they mind you taking 5% for yourself

True but either way it isn't theft it's fraud they're very different check the laws. Also as for AD tough noogies? =P


gnomersy wrote:
Selgard wrote:
...

Sel if you aren't willing to play with the rules that's fine, to each his own and all that crap but that usually means you should exempt yourself from discussions about the topic where it is assumed that they are following those rules. It's like going onto a thread about Weapon Focus and saying it's the bestest feat ever because your GM gives you +5 to hit and +5 to damage for taking it sure in that case you're right but since you aren't using the same rules as everyone else your point isn't really valid.

And yes if the party were to insist on not going with the fee system then the DM either has to equalize the shares of the loot or if the party insists on stealing from the wizard AGAIN I'd probably just pull the wizard aside and tell him he now has an income from prior investing and that he gets X% extra money and that he just shouldn't bother talking with the party about it.

OP asked for advice based on a situation that arose with his party. I gave my opinion.

As it happens, his question is something not covered by RAW. (i.e. can crafters charge extra). The rules are silent on the matter. Its an issue of individual taste.

Just because yuo don't agree with me, or my group, and how we do things, doesn't mean I should back out of the thread.

He asked for advice. I'm giving mine. You are giving yours. Neither of us needs to leave the thread.

I appreciate you telling me to get out of the thread though, as the individual most vocally against your view point.

-S


gnomersy wrote:
dragonfire8974 wrote:
which of course, you can fix in game by just asking the party if they mind you taking 5% for yourself
True but either way it isn't theft it's fraud they're very different check the laws. Also as for AD tough noogies? =P

Sure, tough noogies, until you need that heal buddy.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Ravingdork wrote:

If you're a cleric than you MUST BE A HEALBOT. If you're not, than you're an extortionist or an asshat. If you are a spellcaster with item creation feats than you MUST BE THE PARTY CRAFTER. If not, you're a thief or a jerk.

F3ck that. If I'm either of those, it's because I choose to be. I'll not have anyone dictating MY character, not even the GM*

This thread is BEYOND twisted in its logic.

** spoiler omitted **

If you are a cleric who chooses to specialize in healing, then its not unreasonable for the party to expect you to heal, no? Or is that unreasonable?

If you are a spell caster.. its reasonable to expect you to .. use those spells, is that reasonable?

If you take ranks in diplomacy.. is it reasonable to ask you to maybe.. i dunno.. use those on behalf of the party?

I mean it sounds reasonable to me. I'm not buying these books to play alone, am I? i'm playing them to engage in a cooperative game with some friends, relaxing on a friday night.

So yeah, if someone shows up to the table and has decided they want to be a crafter.. why is it unreasonable to assume they'll.. craft things?

or if someone has gone down the path to do nearly anything- that they'll do so for the group?

I'm not sure how that logic is twisted.
You choose to be what you bring to the table. Presumably, you made those choices to be the best member of the table that you can be- in some fashion or another.
Is it a jerk to ask the barbarian to power attack?
is it a jerk to ask the wizard to cast a spell?
is it a jerk to ask the rogue to pick the lock?
Why is it a jerk to ask the crafter to craft something?

I'm boggled.

-S


Selgard wrote:

OP asked for advice based on a situation that arosed with his party. I gave my opinion.

As it happens, his question is something not covered by RAW. (i.e. can crafters charge extra). The rules are silent on the matter. Its an issue of individual taste.

Just because yuo don't agree with me, or my group, and how we do things, doesn't mean I should back out of the thread.

He asked for advice. I'm giving mine. You are giving yours. Neither of us needs to leave the thread.

I appreciate you telling me to get out of the thread though, as the individual most vocally against your view point.

-S

The rules are actually quite clear can the crafter charge extra, sure, they can do whatever they want it's intraparty dealings. The real question is, should the crafter charge?

The rules do state he should have more wealth, you choose to ignore that rule and that choice makes your opinion look more valid than it is. But if you accept the rule then it becomes equally clear that if the crafter crafts for the party then he should charge unless he is getting his equal share through some other means instead of getting half his share because the party only cares about equal shares when it benefits them.

Regardless I'm fairly certain the OP already fixed his problem by choosing not to reroll as something else iirc, so in that regard we should probably all leave the thread.


Starbuck_II wrote:

It better be a good favor. But yes, I would accept a favor. At my choosing and time, if you can't refuse it (like the godfather).

And you keep your word about the number of favors you owe if you repeatly ask for no fee.

you have an intriguing concept of friendship... :-)

wasn't the point of friendship to _not_ count the favors? so the one having a harder period of life gets more help and those with an easy life not insisting on ROI? after all bad luck could twist it around at some later point in life? what then? (ROI is a business concept... for a good reason, do you consider your partymembers like business partners or like friends? imho neutral parties will tend to business partneship, good parties will tend to friendship, and evil parties will be backstabbing business competitors 8-D )
friendships prove true if both sides don't count, because they know the other will be there when needed, if that fails you usually know it's not a friendship and the few times this happened to me, I ceased my friendship with that person and I started to be wary of queer stuff, just in case...
broken friendship = broken trust :-)


gnomersy wrote:
Selgard wrote:

OP asked for advice based on a situation that arosed with his party. I gave my opinion.

As it happens, his question is something not covered by RAW. (i.e. can crafters charge extra). The rules are silent on the matter. Its an issue of individual taste.

Just because yuo don't agree with me, or my group, and how we do things, doesn't mean I should back out of the thread.

He asked for advice. I'm giving mine. You are giving yours. Neither of us needs to leave the thread.

I appreciate you telling me to get out of the thread though, as the individual most vocally against your view point.

-S

The rules are actually quite clear can the crafter charge extra, sure, they can do whatever they want it's intraparty dealings. The real question is, should the crafter charge?

The rules do state he should have more wealth, you choose to ignore that rule and that choice makes your opinion look more valid than it is. But if you accept the rule then it becomes equally clear that if the crafter crafts for the party then he should charge unless he is getting his equal share through some other means instead of getting half his share because the party only cares about equal shares when it benefits them.

Regardless I'm fairly certain the OP already fixed his problem by choosing not to reroll as something else iirc, so in that regard we should probably all leave the thread.

And if the rules say you can do A or B then I have the right to choose A and advance arguments for it, and you are free to advance B and its arguments.

The rules say the crafter gets double WBL. It doesn't say this entitles him to take that money from the other characters. Which is ultimately the argument. he has the right to twice WBL but doesn't have the ability to exercise it without screwing the rest of the players out of their fair share of the loot.

You are for him screwing the rest of the group out of their loot.
I am against it.

That just means we're at opposite ends of the discussion. Doesn't mean I have to get out anymore than it means that you have to get out.

Myself, I'm enjoying the discussion. Even as it pertains to you. If you choose to leave- be safe, have fun, and enjoy your game! Who knows? maybe we'll be on the same side in the next discussion..

-S


Selgard wrote:


You say "if it's exactly at WBL this puts him over". Agreed. Until they level up, then he's under again and evens out again.
But if he's really already in the hole 4k then he's fine having the guy craft it for him. In the end, it all averages out that he's ok. If only because the DM should step in and not awared the barbarian as much barbarian loot for awhile to keep him from being over for very long.

If the Barb is over WBL, and the GM awards less "barbarian loot" (I assume this means loot a Barbarian is likely to sell instead of use), the Barbarian does sell that loot at half price. He then has the crafter craft "barbarian gear", also at half price, so he's not losing anything, and is still just as much over WBL. The GM's attempt to "average it out' has failed.

Quote:
The same is true if the barbarian is at EXACTLY the WBL and an upgrade for him drops. His fingers don't refuse to wrap around the handle of the axe because hes over WBL. He takes it, and the DM spreads the wealth around to the rest of the group for awhile.

Unless the GM controls how the party divides loot, the best he can do is drop loot tailored to the party members who are behind. But if there's a crafter with the appropriate feat, it doesn't matter what the GM drops, as the crafter can tailor items at no loss.

Quote:

The crafter will never catch up to his own WBL since his WBL is now effectively doubled (for some items). I'm not sure why taking the feat lets him take that out on the group though. All it really means is that he can craft nigh on whatever he wants to without worrying about the glass ceiling of WBL. I do disagree if you say that him taking a feat means he gets to take WBL from the rest of the group.

WBL doubling is a benefit to the crafter, not a handycap to the group. It in no way should allow him to say "hey guys I get double your WBL so you now owe me x% more loot". Nothing your character does allows you to exceed your share of the loot at the table.

The crafter's WBL doesn't double, that's where you're getting confused. He just counts the items he's crafted himself at the crafting cost. So crafting does affect his wealth. He still has the same WBL as everyone else.

Quote:
I mean if the DM really wants to enforce SKR's ruling he basically has to start funneling the crafter more loot so they can match their appropriate WBL. the other PC's have to metagame that its fair- even when it really isn't. "guys I know he has twice your wealth in items.. but that was SKR's ruling.. sorry.".

Actually, SKRs ruling means the GM doesn't have to give the crafter anymore or any less wealth. He just steps back and lets the crafter craft whatever he wants, since crafting doesn't affect his effective wealth.

If the crafter crafts for others, the the GM does have to step in. If PCs are buying items at a discounted rate from ANYWHERE, not just crafters, it will affect their wealth, and it will, eventually, put them significantly over WBL unless the GM adjusts treasure.

The problem, is that since a crafter's wealth is not affected by crafting, but everyone else who buys crafted items wealth is affected, a disparity in wealth is created. A disparity that is very difficult to get rid of.

Quote:

To follow RAW, the DM would have to step in and actually directly funnel the dude more cash than he does the rest of the group. Which would still be rather weird. (and peculiar in game. "what do you mean the King gave him twice what he gave us? thats the last time we let the Wizard do all the talking!"

or "dang man, thats the 15th rich relative you've had die and leave you their fortune.. How big and rich was your family anyway?"
it just gets.. metagamy after awhile. And all for taking a feat.

-S

The ONLY reason a GM would have to funnel more loot to the caster is if the caster crafts for party members without charging.

Why?

Because when party members pay the craft half price for items, they are getting extra loot. Every time they do it, they get some more. They just keep doubling their money, little by little.

When the crafter crafts for himself, the extra isn't counted. When a crafter adds up the value of all his gear, to compare it against WBL, or other party members, he only counts gear he crafted as half.

So, if the party gets extra wealth every time the crafter crafts for them, sometime along there, the crafter needs to get extra wealth. But, the stuff he crafts for himself doesn't count. He doesn't get anything extra when he crafts for himself. But, to be fiar, since everyone else is getting something extra, the crafter should get something extra, too.

So, the million dollar question:

Where does the crafter's "something extra" come from?

Edited to clean up language and trim massive wall of text.


AD, did you just come back to be impertinent, or would you like to carry on with the ACTUAL continuing discussion?

I think we may have actually reached an important point here.

Since we keep talking about the rules forbidding PCs from selling over half price, and using that as the cornerstone of the argument against charging, why is it not equally as relevant to bring up the fact that PCs can only buy things for full price, thus making any cut-price deal with fellow PCs equally forbidden?

So, as any crafter who sells at cost to his party, or any non-crafter who buys at cost, is in contravention of 'universal magical law' (a.k.a. the rulebook) i would say that the only sensible solution is to have the entire party destroyed by Inevitables!


"Hi, I want to join your party. We all trained for all of our lives and are dedicated to working together and supporting each other throughout battle, bad weather, evil lords, whatever."

"Hell yeah!"

"Oh, except that when we adventure, I'll be making 15% more off of our loot than the rest of you. I assume there's no problem with that."

"...."

*boot!*

"Next candidate please!"


Banatine wrote:

AD, did you just come back to be impertinent, or would you like to carry on with the ACTUAL continuing discussion?

I think we may have actually reached an important point here.

Since we keep talking about the rules forbidding PCs from selling over half price, and using that as the cornerstone of the argument against charging, why is it not equally as relevant to bring up the fact that PCs can only buy things for full price, thus making any cut-price deal with fellow PCs equally forbidden?

So, as any crafter who sells at cost to his party, or any non-crafter who buys at cost, is in contravention of 'universal magical law' (a.k.a. the rulebook) i would say that the only sensible solution is to have the entire party destroyed by Inevitables!

You see Banatine, I don't need to mire myself in twisted rationalizations on this issue.

I know what is right.

And profiteering from your sworn blood brothers isn't.

You guys can build all the convoluted rationalizations you like. I already know the answer.


Selgard wrote:

If you tell someone you are making an item for cost, and you are really making a profit off the item, you are stealing their money.

"hey guys, this item costs me 500 gold to craft" when it really costs you 450? Is stealing 50 gold from them.

Hey, We finally agree on something! That is blatently dishonest and I would also consider it theft.


Adamantine Dragon wrote:

"Hi, I want to join your party. We all trained for all of our lives and are dedicated to working together and supporting each other throughout battle, bad weather, evil lords, whatever."

"Hell yeah!"

"Oh, except that when we adventure, I'll be making 15% more off of our loot than the rest of you. I assume there's no problem with that."

"...."

*boot!*

"Next candidate please!"

So, if a party member invested his share of the loot somehow, getting returns on his investment, and you spent it on a new sword, you would boot him because of how he chose to spend his money?

How is that fair or right, since you seem to be so knowledgeable on the subject.


Kyoni wrote:
Starbuck_II wrote:

It better be a good favor. But yes, I would accept a favor. At my choosing and time, if you can't refuse it (like the godfather).

And you keep your word about the number of favors you owe if you repeatly ask for no fee.

you have an intriguing concept of friendship... :-)

wasn't the point of friendship to _not_ count the favors? so the one having a harder period of life gets more help and those with an easy life not insisting on ROI? after all bad luck could twist it around at some later point in life? what then? (ROI is a business concept... for a good reason, do you consider your partymembers like business partners or like friends? imho neutral parties will tend to business partneship, good parties will tend to friendship, and evil parties will be backstabbing business competitors 8-D )
friendships prove true if both sides don't count, because they know the other will be there when needed, if that fails you usually know it's not a friendship and the few times this happened to me, I ceased my friendship with that person and I started to be wary of queer stuff, just in case...
broken friendship = broken trust :-)

So, I shouldn't accept favors?

Your right, I should just charge, if he can't pay, better do an IOU form.


Quantum Steve wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:

"Hi, I want to join your party. We all trained for all of our lives and are dedicated to working together and supporting each other throughout battle, bad weather, evil lords, whatever."

"Hell yeah!"

"Oh, except that when we adventure, I'll be making 15% more off of our loot than the rest of you. I assume there's no problem with that."

"...."

*boot!*

"Next candidate please!"

So, if a party member invested his share of the loot somehow, getting returns on his investment, and you spent it on a new sword, you would boot him because of how he chose to spend his money?

How is that fair or right, since you seem to be so knowledgeable on the subject.

Steve, I see absolutely no difference in your character charging me for a magic weapon, and my character charging you for a heal spell. None. Zip. Nada. You have a skill I can benefit from, I have a skill you can benefit from.

If you want to stop playing "Dungeons and Dragons" and start playing "Dungeons and Accountants" fine, I can play that game too.

I just prefer D&D.


Selgard wrote:

And if the rules say you can do A or B then I have the right to choose A and advance arguments for it, and you are free to advance B and its arguments.

The rules say the crafter gets double WBL. It doesn't say this entitles him to take that money from the other characters. Which is ultimately the argument. he has the right to twice WBL but doesn't have the ability to exercise it without screwing the rest of the players out of their fair share of the loot.

You are for him screwing the rest of the group out of their loot.
I am against it.

That just means we're at opposite...

No, the rules say, A happens. However they don't specify how to achieve A. The crafter should have double WBL(not actually double he'll be at WBL but some of his items are counted at cost instead of at price but whatever) how you accomplish that is up to you, but the rules say that it should be accomplished and it is a safe assumption to make that you ought to be getting A when you take the feat. If the rest of the party isn't going to let you have that WBL through normal means then imo you have the right to take it through fees.

And it's not really screwing the rest of the group because whatever happens they are going to end up at WBL through GM intervention if it's 180% or 200% through crafting it doesn't matter because the GM will scale that back to 100% WBL the issue is that in your method of play the crafter will never have 100% of his(weirdly modified) WBL he's always going to be below that. So out of the two who is getting screwed the guys who are at WBL or the guy who's permanently below it?

Oh and @ Kyoni - Maybe, but I've got maybe 2 friends in the world who I honestly trust would do something for nothing for me and who I would do likewise for(excluding family of course) and in our group I actively hated and was contemplating killing one of the other characters during combat because of their relationship now I didn't because I was metagaming and didn't want to be a dick about it but if I'd been rping properly I'd probably have shot him in the back sooooooo yeah crafting at cost for that guy ... nope not going to happen.


Adamantine Dragon wrote:


Steve, I see absolutely no difference in your character charging me for a magic weapon, and my character charging you for a heal spell. None. Zip. Nada. You have a skill I can benefit from, I have a skill you can benefit from.

If you want to stop playing "Dungeons and Dragons" and start playing "Dungeons and Accountants" fine, I can play that game too.

I just prefer D&D.

Not talking about charging at the moment.

What if a caster just wants to craft his stuff, when he has a chance, while adventuring, not holding the party up to wait for him to craft, but doesn't want to deal with the headache of crafting for his party?

Why is that so wrong that you should refuse to adventure with him or treat him as an equal member of the party?


Quantum Steve wrote:
Selgard wrote:

We can all make corner cases that prove our points.

None of my cases are corner cases. My cases assume the PCs average at or near WBL and encounters drop, again on average, at or near the expected wealth. The rules were designed with exactly such a party in mind.

My cases are an accurate representation of the majority of actual cases.

If a particular party doesn't stay at or near WBL, but instead plays significantly over or significantly under WBL, then they would have to adjust their expectations about a great many things, not just my examples.

Quote:


You say "if it's exactly at WBL this puts him over". Agreed. Until they level up, then he's under again and evens out again.
But if he's really already in the hole 4k then he's fine having the guy craft it for him. In the end, it all averages out that he's ok. If only because the DM should step in and not awared the barbarian as much barbarian loot for awhile to keep him from being over for very long.

I'm going to stop you right here. If the Barb is over WBL, and the GM awards less "barbarian loot" (I assume this means loot a Barbarian is likely to sell instead of use), the Barbarian does sell that loot at half price. He then has the crafter craft "barbarian gear", also at half price, so he's not losing anything, and is still just as much over WBL. The GM's attempt to "average it out' has failed.

Quote:
The same is true if the barbarian is at EXACTLY the WBL and an upgrade for him drops. His fingers don't refuse to wrap around the handle of the axe because hes over WBL. He takes it, and the DM spreads the wealth around to the rest of the group for awhile.

Unless the GM controls how the party divides loot, the best he can do is drop loot tailored to the party members who are behind. But if there's a crafter with the appropriate feat, it doesn't matter what the GM drops, as the crafter can tailor items at no loss.

Quote:
In reality (imo anyway) WBL is just a way for dead PC's to come back
...

Alot of the problem is how you interpret WBL.

Do your PC's hit a level and have a showering of gold hit them on the head suddenly making them "WBL" at their new level?
Probably not.

If WBL is X. X is a target that moves every level. Its not a static number.

If you need 140k for a level 13th character the presumption is that you got to 140k somewhere between 12 and 13.

Which means that at some point between 12 and 13 you were over WBL.
Otherwise, it means your group has a shower of gold when you "ding" and are suddenly "at wBL' and never get any loot. that would be odd. (and would probably be best done as an employer or something rewarding you or whatever).
But I feel fairly safe in saying that very few groups "Ding" 13 and have the balance of their WBL droppped on their heads and that they gain no loot between 13 and 14.

No, the logical assumption is that somewhere inb etween levels you are inbetween WBL's too. If you are 50% between 12 and 13 you could be 50% of the wealth difference between them too.

If you are exactly on the very dot at WBL for your given level then its a corner case. Because usually you are over it or under it. If you are *exactly on the dot* then it'll get correctd as you continue to progress through the level- without additional work by the PC's, if the DM is following WBL and allocating the loot accordingly.

Now the problem with SKR's ruling is this:
The caster has the right to double WBL but no method to actually get it without obtaining from the group more than their fair share of the treasure.
The crafter says : My WBL is now double each of yours. Because I took a feat. So give me more of the loot.
Group says: Thats goofy. I'm not getting less loot so you can get more, just because you took a feat.

Its the crippling problem with "crafter gets double WBL and no one else".
Where does that WBL come from? fairy land? No. It *has to come* from the rest of the group. In order to truly double CC's wealth they have to take it from the rest of the group. They HAVE to. There's no other way to do it. Which is absolutely stupid. Its the only character choice in th game by by their ruling allows one PC to steal loot from the rest of the group.

The only other way to interpret it is that the PC has the right to get double WBl through crafting things but doesn't have an adequate method of actually getting the extra wealth.

SKR's ruling puts the crafter directly in opposition with the rest of the group. Which is why my advice is to ignore it.

Just like when the wizard wants to chain bind and dominate genies for wishes- the best advice is to stomp on it and prevent it in the first place.

All you can really do is say "RAW is STUPID, I advise you to ignore it" and move on. Just like the genies.

I mean the only other way is for the DM to enforce that PC"s sell to the group for double cost (which seems to be what some suggest) and this lets the PC double their wealth while everyone else stays at same WBL. This actually passes the "RAW" test. Unfortuantely it flat out fails the metagame test. It fails it so bad it didn't even show up for the test and got a failing grade.

Ingame:
"so guys. last level I took craft wondrous item."
"thats awesome!"
"unfortunately, I am literally incapable of making any of you an item without you paying full price."
"but.. we're a team. We're using our abilities to help.. why can't you?"
"oh.. i can.. i just .. have to charge you full price, even though I get to make it for myself for half off. sorry.."
"....."
"I'm sorry! look taking this feat means I get double the amount of loot.. and yanno, it has to come from somewhere.. I mean you all can't benefit from it, right?.. so I have to charge you.. so I can have more money for myself.. You understand. right guys? right?"
"..."

Sure it makes RAW work, but all it does is cause intense and extreme resentment within the group as one guy suddenly is robbing the rest to fit this "clarification" of the rule.

Can you imagine if the rules stated that everytime a party member used powerattack, the rest of the group's wealth went down by 20gold and that gold went into the pocket of the PA user? By RAW?

"hey my power attack didn't work.. wth"
"sorry man it's been a rough week in the dungeon.. i'm flat broke."
"crap.. I needed that power attack, too.."

The ruling works in theory but in practice? Its a game killer. A flat out game murderer.

Heck i'd rather let the wizard chain bind wishes. At least the group can benefit from those.

-S


Quantum Steve wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:


Steve, I see absolutely no difference in your character charging me for a magic weapon, and my character charging you for a heal spell. None. Zip. Nada. You have a skill I can benefit from, I have a skill you can benefit from.

If you want to stop playing "Dungeons and Dragons" and start playing "Dungeons and Accountants" fine, I can play that game too.

I just prefer D&D.

Not talking about charging at the moment.

What if a caster just wants to craft his stuff, when he has a chance, while adventuring, not holding the party up to wait for him to craft, but doesn't want to deal with the headache of crafting for his party?

Why is that so wrong that you should refuse to adventure with him or treat him as an equal member of the party?

What the hell are you talking about?

The problem comes when he says "Here, you can have this item I just made if I get to put 15% of the cost into my own pocket, meaning my share of the party loot just increased because I know how to make magic items."

My reaction will be. "Huh. Really? OK, well, here's my standard rate for healing."

WHat is so wrong with charging YOU for healing if you charge ME for a magic item? Don't worry, I'll give you the standard party discount.


Quantum Steve, you are correct. The crafter's wealth by level isn't doubled. A 20th level crafter will still have an WBL of 880,000 gp. But where everyone else is going by market price for their items that contribute to WBL, the craft gets to count cost for the items that he crafts.

Robe of the Archmagi: 75,000 gp price (37,500 gp cost)
Bracers of Armor +8: 64,000 gp price (32,000 gp cost)
Ring of Protection +5: 50,000 gp price (25,000 gp cost)
Cloak of Resistance +5: 25,000 gp price (12,500 gp cost)
Amulet of Natural Armor +5: 50,000 gp price (25,000 gp cost)
Heaband of Vast Intellect +6: 36,000 gp price (18,000 gp cost)
Belt of Physical Perfection +4: 40,000 gp price (20,000 gp cost)
Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone: 5,000 gp price (2,500 gp cost)
Iridescent Spindle Ioun Stone: 18,000 gp price (9,000 gp cost)
Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone: 30,000 gp price (15,000 gp cost)
Orange Prism Ioun Stone: 30,000 gp price (15,000 gp cost)
Blessed Book: 12,500 gp price (6,250 gp cost)
Winged Boots: 16,000 gp price (8,000 gp cost)
Gloves of Arrow Snaring: 4,000 gp price (2,000 gp cost)
Goggles of Night: 12,000 gp price (6,000 gp cost)
Handy Haversack: 2,000 gp price (1,000 gp cost)
Tome of Clear Tought +5: 137,500 gp price (68,750 gp cost)
Staff of Power: 235,000 gp price (117,500 gp cost)
Dagger +5: 50,000 gp price (25,000 gp cost)

Total market price for all those items? 892,000 gp.

Total cost for these items? 446,000 gp.

If the caster crafts all of the above items, then he is short of his wealth by level by 434,000 gp, and can buy what he wants to his heart's content.

Now, is that likely? No. It would take him more than a year in down time to craft all of those items; but he can reduce enough of them that he is more than able to exceed everyone else's WBL that have to use price and not cost. Even if he doesn't charge his fellow party members to craft for them.

Master Arminas


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Ranger: "Hey guys, I found the evil lord's hidden compound in the woods."

Group: "Cool! Let's go kill him!"

Ranger: "No problem, it'll just cost you 500g and I'll tell you where he is."

Group: "WHat!? that's crazy!"

Ranger: "I spent THREE WEEKS tracking his ass down, three weeks that JOE here spent making me a bow he wants to charge me 500g for! Talk to JOE."


Adamantine Dragon wrote:


And profiteering from your sworn blood brothers isn't.

Sworn blood brothers?

I don't know of anyone in my party that I consider my sworn blood brother. I don't think I've ever played in a campaign over the last 15 years where I had a sworn blood brother. I don't think anyone else viewed any member of the party as anything more than a buddy. Actually in a white wolf campaign we had a married couple join us and their pcs were married in game as well so they would qualify.

I'm thinking that this is a difference in group style more than anything else. In pretty much every game I've played in the group is a somewhat random group of people where most of us are pseudo-friends. Which is to say that in various campaigns we have dueled before, but almost never to the death.

Andoran

Dr Grecko wrote:
I think this is where we are seeing the hangup. I'm viewing the pathfinder universe through a capitalists eyes, while you are viewing it through a communists eyes. (no offense intended). It is perfectly reasonable considering the OP's God choice, to operate the way he does.

I think we all know where the "I act this way because my God (or my Code) orders me to" path ends.

Because a party of PCs is not a party of NPCs, some allowances must be made to promote cooperation (ie, all for one and one for all) rather than every sentient for itself.

It turns out that the situation is very similar to the Cleric of Abadar charging his fellow PCs for casting a Cure spell.

Ravingdork wrote:

If you're a cleric than you MUST BE A HEALBOT. If you're not, than you're an extortionist or an asshat. If you are a spellcaster with item creation feats than you MUST BE THE PARTY CRAFTER. If not, you're a thief or a jerk.

F3ck that. If I'm either of those, it's because I choose to be. I'll not have anyone dictating MY character, not even the GM*

This thread is BEYOND twisted in its logic.

** spoiler omitted **

You know that you are supposed to cooperate with the other people who sit around the table, right ? That you all sat down to have fun together rather than check each person's Ego size.


I've never had a blood brother in game either.. but by that same token:

At some point in the game, you trust the group enough to lay down, close your eyes, and sleep, and still wake up in the next morning. You trust that all your bits are still there, and all your loot is still there, and that the group is also still there.

You trust that in battle, the rogue isn't trying to flank -you- and that the wizard is pointing his spells at your opponents instead of the back of your head.

Presumably, you are all working towards the same goal. Whatever goal it may be. Over throwing the BBEG, probably, whatever form that may take.

You might not be bestest buddies in the whole wide world but yuo trust each other with your backs. You Should realize that them stronger is you stronger. That them weaker is you weaker.
And that collectively making them all weaker to strengthen yourself is actually a *loss* to the group.
Even staying out of metagame concepts like "action economy", it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that
5 people being 2% stronger is stronger than 4 people at par and the 5th guy is 10% stronger than them.

A stronger group, is stronger than any individual in it. They need to work together, cooperatively, without someone getting a big head and thinking they are MVP and deserving of more than their share.

If your characters are acting in character- whether they are good, evil, neutral, or whatever, *no one* is going to apppreciate or put up with that 5th guy demanding an extra share of loot just because he's so special. The good guys will talk him out of it, the evil guys will just kill him, but no one is going to say "hey yanno, you're right.. You are doing just as much as we are for the team but what the hell, it'll weaken the team to do it, but he's 5% of my cash."

Its just not rational.

The *only thing* it works for is absolute 100% strict adherence to RAW. It fails every other test hands down flat out. It doesn't even get past the starting gate.

This is an advice thread? My advice is to ditch the raw. Distribute things fairly. Act like a group, behave as a group.

No one is a slave to the group, and no one gets to take more than their share of the loot.

-S

Silver Crusade

I call bull on any "I invested feats to do that so you should pay me, bwaaah" argument.
The ranger isn't making you pay for using his survival skill yet he put ranks in it, the fighter isn't making you pay by standing between you and the big monster yet he invested armors or feats to make it possible, the cleric isn't asking for GP, when he heals you yet he spends feats to improve his ability to tend to your wounds and praying each day for his spells.

No difference, except for the time spent crafting that at least deserves some kind of active counterpart from the other characters, even in the form of pocket GP.


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Adamantine Dragon wrote:


Steve, I see absolutely no difference in your character charging me for a magic weapon, and my character charging you for a heal spell. None. Zip. Nada.

I see a massive differance.

Your cleric has infinite spells. You can always get them back, no matter what happens.

A fighter can always swing his sword again.

The barbarian can always rage again.

The crafter, however, cannot always craft again because crafting requires using the ONLY, truly, finite resource that the game ever gives you: gold.

plus, once again, you have missed something important.

"Oh, except that when we adventure, I'll be making 15% more off of our loot than the rest of you. However, in return i will make you any magical equipment you like for 50% less than the magic shops sell for."

See, you keep looking at the one thing you don't like, and ignoring the MASSIVE return you get for it.

If we aren't playing 'Dungeons and Accountants', why are you getting so bent out of shape about the wizard getting his +10%, bacause i think YOU ignoring that you are actually getting +40% at the same time is terribly obtuse. See, at any table i played at, YOU would be the one who was booted from the group for being such a shameless munchkin.

If the wizard wasn't crafting for you, you would be paying full price for everything, why so you refuse to see that no matter what happens, you are getting a superior deal?


Selgard wrote:

I've never had a blood brother in game either.. but by that same token:

At some point in the game, you trust the group enough to lay down, close your eyes, and sleep, and still wake up in the next morning. You trust that all your bits are still there, and all your loot is still there, and that the group is also still there.

You trust that in battle, the rogue isn't trying to flank -you- and that the wizard is pointing his spells at your opponents instead of the back of your head.

Presumably, you are all working towards the same goal. Whatever goal it may be. Over throwing the BBEG, probably, whatever form that may take.

You might not be bestest buddies in the whole wide world but yuo trust each other with your backs. You Should realize that them stronger is you stronger. That them weaker is you weaker.
And that collectively making them all weaker to strengthen yourself is actually a *loss* to the group.
Even staying out of metagame concepts like "action economy", it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that
5 people being 2% stronger is stronger than 4 people at par and the 5th guy is 10% stronger than them.

A stronger group, is stronger than any individual in it. They need to work together, cooperatively, without someone getting a big head and thinking they are MVP and deserving of more than their share.

If your characters are acting in character- whether they are good, evil, neutral, or whatever, *no one* is going to apppreciate or put up with that 5th guy demanding an extra share of loot just because he's so special. The good guys will talk him out of it, the evil guys will just kill him, but no one is going to say "hey yanno, you're right.. You are doing just as much as we are for the team but what the hell, it'll weaken the team to do it, but he's 5% of my cash."

Its just not rational.

The *only thing* it works for is absolute 100% strict adherence to RAW. It fails every other test hands down flat out. It doesn't even get past the starting gate.

This is an advice...

Except the other 4 guys in the group they should get the extra shares because f~%! guy 5 he's a dick anyways. That's totally how being fair works right? Now lets assume that you follow the RAW and lets assume the characters know their WBL since whatever the players know it even if it's sort of metagaming you think the crafter doesn't look at his stuff and at the Barb's stuff and go hmmm why am I getting half the money that Barb is getting?

Because trust me if you walked up to that wizard and told him, "Alright so here's the deal bub you adventure with us 4 guys you do all that finger waggling in a fight and in tricky situations and then you make us some magic items in your downtime and you get a 10% share of all the wealth we accrue." the wizard says "10% ... What are you all getting?" rest of group "Oh we get 20% of course." ... Wizard either tosses those asshats out of his tower or fireballs them in the face.


Slightly off topic: is anyone else hoping that eleclipse (the OP) is still watching this thread, and laughing at the fact we are all STILL arguing over something so stupid?

Shadow Lodge

Adamantine Dragon wrote:

You see Banatine, I don't need to mire myself in twisted rationalizations on this issue.

I know what is right.

And profiteering from your sworn blood brothers isn't.

You guys can build all the convoluted rationalizations you like. I already know the answer.

What I hear you saying is: "La-la-la I'm not listening to this discussion! I'm right, I'm right, I'm always right, and you're wrong. Also, you smell bad." Conversation is a two-way street. I'll give you an example below that might help you have better interactions with other people.

To actually answer Balantine's question on your behalf: "Definitely not Option 2."

Selgard wrote:

I mean, the guy who took 2 crafting feats sits down and makes himself a nice new toy. He has no money left. The fighter says "hey, would you mind upgrading my sword? I have the money, and I'll make sure nothing attacks you while you do it". The rest of the group chimes in, that they don't mind waiting, or taking over the crafter's chores while he does it. The crafter says "Sorry Fighter. I don't craft for other people. You'll have to buy a new one in town or hope we find one."

I've just never, ever, not one single time seen that happen. its so weird I can't actually imagine it happening at a real table unless someone was just intentionally being a jerk. And I can imagine that the next time Crafter boy needed something from the group.. he just might find himself on the receiving end of that "no".

This explains a lot about why your stand is so firm. You're making a lot of assumptions, here, about how people interact which might not meet with other's experiences. Not every character is going to be willing do "do the chores," and if the crafter has no money left but someone in the party needs an item, I think it's reasonable for the crafter to say, "I'll make the sword, but I had planned on making a wand, until I ran out of money. My wand will help the whole party, does everybody want to kick in for it?"

These assumptions might be true for your group, and any group you want to play in, but they are not true for every group and are not the One True Path to Fun for every player. I think you're assuming that they are, whether you mean to or not. And when you say, "I'd leave a group that acted the way you guys do," it's hard for people not to take that as a personal slam, though I'm sure you don't mean it that way. I'm sure you can see why people would take that statement as a dig against their game, their friends, themselves and their chosen kind of fun.


So we capped 1k posts. Yay us. And with everyone (mostly) still behaving as humans, having a nice rational conversation.

I said before I'd play my own devil's advocate.. so what the hay? Might as well.
I don't actually have a good argument against myself, but instead I'll cover some things that I (and some others have agreed) would be acceptable scenarios for someone to charge the group cash.

1) Metagame character directors deserve less money.
So Wally the Wizard just dinged 9th level and is looking at quicken spell as his next feat choice. He figures it might come in handy, since he primarily is a combat mage.
Roddy Rogue however notes the possible selections and says "hey, you should take craft wondrous item instead. that'd let us all get some good stuff earlier than normal- and I'm rather tired of Don the DM's loot selections. That'll let us pick and choose better".
Bobby the Barbarian decides to chime his 3 int into the conversation.
"I dunno, I agree with Roddy. You need to take that feat, so we can all be better for it."
Wally the wizard frowns at them both. "but I don't have any crafting skills.. and I really don't want to take that feat. I'm going to take Quicken instead. Maybe one of you two can take that neat crafting feat for non-casters, instead?"
RR:
No, you are going to take that feat or we're going to replace you as party wizard.. And no more pizza.
"which you won't be eating at my table" says BB.
Just use your prodigious intellect and learn a craft skill too. (aka all your skill points this level).

Sullenly, WW bows to peer pressure and does as they request. Over the next several months of game play, he labors under their "care" like a little slave, making each item that they want while nary a moment to rest, and certainly not time to make anything for himself.

So while somewhat of an exaggeration (I hope!), I think its clear that no one would object to this wizard charging them *out the arse* for crafting. And they deserve it. They actually deserve for him to just go home- the player. he should just pack up and hit the road. These guys are pricks. But sticking around and charging them through the nose for the crafting is a nice alternative, for those who really want to stick the spike in the guys's craw.

2) Roddy the Rogue dies. awww.
In his place, he brings in Charlie the Crafter.
Charlie the Crafter is a wizard with every single crafting feat and skill that he can possibly have. He meets up with Bobby the Barbarian and Pliny the Paladin to go adventuring.
Its not long before they find out that CC is a crafter. From that point forward, PP has his foot on CC's back. No down time for CC. He's crafting every moment that the CRB allows. When the party goes for ale, he goes to the crafting bench. They got him a ring of sustenance, but then used Universal Solvent to make sure he never took it off either, and just uses his extra 6 hours a day to slave away for them. We'll leave it to the reader's imagination what he's subject to when he can't be crafting- but lets just assume it isn't exactly pleasant.

I while also (I hope!) an extaggeration, I think everyone would agree that if the group is literally forcing someone to craft without any down time, always making things for them, then even if the guy decided without coersion to take the feats, that its wrong for them to behave this way. Crafters, just like everyone else, deserve time off. If all they are is a crafting slave, they should be charging extra. Probably alot more than 10%. I know I would.

The underlying theme is simple:
The group should act like a group. Its not a matter of "why should I have to do X'.
its a matter of "I want to do X so the group doesn't fail"
or "I want to do X so the group is better than it is now."
If they are mistreating the crafter, then there are issues that need to be solved. But all else being equal- they are all doing their part to progress and no one really deserves more than their 1/x of the loot. (where x is the number of people in the group).

-S

(yay, 1k posts!)


Selgard. The problem that I have with your logic is that it doesn't make the group weaker to charge. I am not a dragon. I'm not hoarding this wealth. I'm making potions with it. I'm enhancing my head band o brains. Since I'm not playing a dedicated crafter my choice of grabbing craft wondrous item is not affecting my combat prowess on anything other than a fine marginal scale. That money that I charge is still being used to enhance the group.

I see a very large difference between charging a price increase for crafted items and charging for healing. If you are not a dedicated crafter then you are still presumably fulfilling your group duties much like our party fighter who despite taking cosmopolitan has never actually used it due to the fact that the paladin's diplomacy is substantially higher. A dedicated crafter should not charge because crafting is their group duty. A dedicated healer should not charge because healing is their duty. Fulfilling that duty is how you get your loot share.

When you craft someone an item you increase their prowess in a given field. At the end of the day though they go home with that item. They choose how and when to use it. I could upgrade our paladin's sword and he could use it against another party member because he considers said party member an abomination. Said party member being a friend of my characters. That is what differentiates crafting skills in my view from other feats. You are elevating another players power permanently in a way that it outside of your control and influence. When I charge for items during group downtime it is because of that fact.

As a power ratio

Paladin 1 after upgrade 2
Barb 1
Sorc 1
Me 1

Total 4 after upgrade 5

When I boost the paladin's sword the group goes up to five. But I stay at one. I do not consider it unreasonable to have his power be at 1.9 and mine be at 1.1. Now on the road I probably won't charge for my friends. While the group is off doing other things that contribute to the given adventure I probably wont charge for my friends. When the barb and paladin are at the bar drinking and I'm sitting at the inn crafting him a new headband o charisma you bet your lucky tush I'm charging him a 10% fee.

Edit: Note I said friends not party members. My character does consider the paladin to be his friend and I did not charge him an upgrade fee for his new shiny hat.


Banatine wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:


Steve, I see absolutely no difference in your character charging me for a magic weapon, and my character charging you for a heal spell. None. Zip. Nada.

I see a massive differance.

Your cleric has infinite spells. You can always get them back, no matter what happens.

A fighter can always swing his sword again.

The barbarian can always rage again.

The crafter, however, cannot always craft again because crafting requires using the ONLY, truly, finite resource that the game ever gives you: gold.

plus, once again, you have missed something important.

"Oh, except that when we adventure, I'll be making 15% more off of our loot than the rest of you. However, in return i will make you any magical equipment you like for 50% less than the magic shops sell for."

See, you keep looking at the one thing you don't like, and ignoring the MASSIVE return you get for it.

If we aren't playing 'Dungeons and Accountants', why are you getting so bent out of shape about the wizard getting his +10%, bacause i think YOU ignoring that you are actually getting +40% at the same time is terribly obtuse. See, at any table i played at, YOU would be the one who was booted from the group for being such a shameless munchkin.

If the wizard wasn't crafting for you, you would be paying full price for everything, why so you refuse to see that no matter what happens, you are getting a superior deal?

He's not. he's just using the RAW model of wealth distribution that says when the wizard crafts the fighter an 8k sword and charges him 4k, the fighter's WBL goes up by 8k not 4.

So while his liquid assets went down by 4 his actual "cost" is 8k.
So when you factor up how much his gear is worth its *worth* is 8k not 4k.
So he (by raw) gets 4k less "loot" which is supposed to even out the difference.

(which is why that ruling is so weird.. but whatever).

-S

Shadow Lodge

Some of the arguments cancel each other out:

"The crafter spent a feat" is the same as "the barbarian spent a feat," though if the barbarian chose a feat that doesn't makes sense for his character then everyone should jump on him to exactly the same degree they would a crafter who choses not to craft for free.

"The crafter is helping herself by helping the fighter hit more often" is true. But equally true is "the fighter who pays to help for the wizard to make a headband is helping himself because the wizard can now cast better spells on his behalf." By paying the crafter, who then crafts items which make her a better party member, the fighter has helped himself, using the logic of the earlier statement.

"The crafter will be ahead by WBL if the others pay" may be true, but equally true is that "the rest of the party will be ahead unless the GM finds a way to give loot strictly to the crafter." This is hard to do, as you have said. Assume a four person party, everyone gets +1 armor (because everyone had exactly 1000gp to spend). The crafter who made it doesn't ask for a tip. Everyone now has 2000gp in items, except the crafter, who is considered to have 1000gp.

They kill a goblin who has 1000gp. (Maybe he was a goblin crafter who charged his party to make items and they kicked him out. I don't know.) They split it evenly, as parties tend to do. Now, either the crafter is square and everyone else in the party is currently ahead by 1250gp, OR the party is square and the crafter is behind 750gp. To make it even, the crafter could make herself another item, but she doesn't have enough money to do that. If everyone in the party paid 100gp, then the other three party members would be ahead 1150 (or behind 100) and the crafter could make an item putting her ahead 450 (or behind 300, respectively).

In other words: if the crafter makes items for the whole party and the DM gives out loot that can be divided equally, then the crafter will always be behind the rest of the party.

If we assume that the GM wants to keep things balanced, instead of letting the crafter fall further and further behind her "friends" on the power curve, then the DM has no choice but in intervene. The only intervention that doesn't "interfere with how the characters interact" is to stop giving out loot in either gold or items that the other characters can use. Every monster they kill is either broke, or only has items that the crafter can use, until the crafter (in the above example) has another 1000gp in items.

I agree that it is nicer and more collectivist for the crafter to make items without asking for a tip. What I don't agree with is that is it even remotely fair or balanced. If the math in my above example is solid, can we agree that party-crafting impoverishes the caster, relative to the party, all things being equal? ("Friends help each other" = true. "Friends go bankrupt for each other," though?)

I've been thinking about this, and I have some advice for other DMs whose groups include a selfless crafter. As always, you should talk to your players and let them know that you are doing the job of a DM, and plan to do these things because you want to keep wealth (and character power) more or less balanced:

1) Use the crafter's wealth as a guide. Every character with crafted magic items is ahead by half the value of each item.
2) When any non-crafter has two items of equal value, you will want to sunder one of them to destroyed. This brings that character's wealth back in line with the crafter. If they complain, remind them that they got both items at half price.
3) If the world has thieves, they could target the non-crafters exclusively. Targeting the crafter puts her further behind, which isn't fair. The thieves should, of course, only steal enough to bring the non-crafters' wealth back in line with the crafter.
4) Find a way to get the crafter more money/ items in treasure. Headbands of intellect are no good to a barbarian. Stop giving out armor, weapons and shields. Give out just expendable magic items, since the crafter will be more likely to use them. Give lots of books.
5) Enemies should run away more often, taking their gear with them. (This doesn't help the crafter, but keeps things from getting less unbalanced.)

Whether or not your group thinks that paying the crafter is fair, a DM still have a responsibility not to let the rest of the party end up with double the crafter's wealth. This means getting the crafter a bump or depriving the others of wealth, somehow.

Alternately, you could encourage your players to play by the rules: pay market price to the crafter, who then has to do something non-mechanically beneficial with the funds. If they don't want half of their new items broken, or to stop getting item drops, there really aren't any other options.


Those of you who continue to argue that the WBL rules support your argument simply don't understand my point.

I'm not metagaming this. I'm character gaming it.

Those of you who claim there is some critical difference between crafting items for money and charging for heals are also metagaming.

If you want to make a capitalist argument, I'll do exactly the same thing. You have something I want, so you want to charge me for it. I can either buy it from YOU or buy it from someone else for more gold.

That identical argument holds for heal spells, ranger tracking, melee tanking, ANYTHING.

You need it. I have it. You want some of it, fork over some gold dude. If you want your heals at cost, then I want my magic items at cost.

Fair is fair.

YOu don't like it, don't make magic items. But if you charge me, then you won't be getting a heal until I've got some gold in my hand.

Let's see who starts hollering "Please I need it NOW!" first.

That's capitalism folks.


gnomersy wrote:
Selgard wrote:

I've never had a blood brother in game either.. but by that same token:

At some point in the game, you trust the group enough to lay down, close your eyes, and sleep, and still wake up in the next morning. You trust that all your bits are still there, and all your loot is still there, and that the group is also still there.

You trust that in battle, the rogue isn't trying to flank -you- and that the wizard is pointing his spells at your opponents instead of the back of your head.

Presumably, you are all working towards the same goal. Whatever goal it may be. Over throwing the BBEG, probably, whatever form that may take.

You might not be bestest buddies in the whole wide world but yuo trust each other with your backs. You Should realize that them stronger is you stronger. That them weaker is you weaker.
And that collectively making them all weaker to strengthen yourself is actually a *loss* to the group.
Even staying out of metagame concepts like "action economy", it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that
5 people being 2% stronger is stronger than 4 people at par and the 5th guy is 10% stronger than them.

A stronger group, is stronger than any individual in it. They need to work together, cooperatively, without someone getting a big head and thinking they are MVP and deserving of more than their share.

If your characters are acting in character- whether they are good, evil, neutral, or whatever, *no one* is going to apppreciate or put up with that 5th guy demanding an extra share of loot just because he's so special. The good guys will talk him out of it, the evil guys will just kill him, but no one is going to say "hey yanno, you're right.. You are doing just as much as we are for the team but what the hell, it'll weaken the team to do it, but he's 5% of my cash."

Its just not rational.

The *only thing* it works for is absolute 100% strict adherence to RAW. It fails every other test hands down flat out. It doesn't even get past the starting gate.

...

No because in reality here's how it goes.

"holy crap that guy is charging 40k for that item."
"yeah well, I can make it for you for 20k"
"no joke? thats awesome. Do you mind?"
"no not at all, it'll just take some time"
"thats awesome!" *gives the guy 20k gold"
*awhile later*
"here you go*
crafter gives him the item. The group gets a 40k item for 20k and they are all the better off for it.

I see where you are coming from Gnomersy. I just disagree with the notion that because the crafter chose a feat, he gets to take advantage of the discount that is provided to the group by that feat.

It'd be like him charging the group for the HP the bad guys lost for maximizing the spell verses not.

Or the healer charging you for your HP regained, according to the caster chart in the CRB.

Crafting lets you make an item for X.
If you go to the store, that item costs Y.

Crafting lets the crafter get y-x into his own pocket? This is the disconnect.

Crafting doesn't let the crafter take advantage of his party mates, anymore than *any other skill feat or class ability* lets someone take advantage of their party mates.

You have a rogue. He picks the lock on a chest.
Does he get to charge you, what it would have cost to lug the thing back into town and have an NPC do it?
What if the barbarian is about to HULK SMASH! the chest and the rogue steps up and unlocks it instead. he just saved the contents of the chest! is he entitled to half? full? what?

or to use AD's example:

The party could have wandered around in the forest for days trying to find the Big Bad's lair. Fortunately, they have a ranger. Ranger Rick goes out for an hour while they are cleaning up camp and comes back.
"ok guys, I followed their foot prints. They went -> that way".
Does he get to charge for it?
He saved them potentially days of running around in the forest, through enemy territory.

Course not. Why not? Everyone in the group does things that save the group *tons* of money effort energy and time. They do it *all the time*.
Try opening every locked door and chest. Try checking everywhere for traps. Can others do it? sure. Who does it best? the rogue. Or someone else who invested time energy and talent into catching and removing traps and unlocking doors and such.

The whole group is made up of people doing things for the group.
No one gets to charge more for it. Not the fighter for fighting, not the healer for healing, not the crafter for crafting.

-S


Selgard wrote:

He's not. he's just using the RAW model of wealth distribution that says when the wizard crafts the fighter an 8k sword and charges him 4k, the fighter's WBL goes up by 8k not 4.
So while his liquid assets went down by 4 his actual "cost" is 8k.
So when you factor up how much his gear is worth its *worth* is 8k not 4k.
So he (by raw) gets 4k less "loot" which is supposed to even out the difference.

(which is why that ruling is so weird.. but whatever).

-S

Now, at the risk of sounding stupid, THIS is the thing i don't understand about you argument.

Because how i see it is, yes his gear is now WORTH 8K, BUT since he also has 4K that he wouldn't have had otherwise, isn't he now at 12K?

And it is definately something i would like to understand, because i intend to run a pretty long campaign soon (Slumbering Tsar! Joy!) and i don't want to bad crafting feats purely on the ground of me not really 'getting' WBL! Not that i might not just bad them for the plethora of other reasons we have raised in the last few days! :)


Selgard wrote:
The logical assumption is that somewhere in between levels you are in between WBL's too. If you are 50% between 12 and 13 you could be 50% of the wealth difference between them too.

I agree

Quote:
If you are exactly on the very dot at WBL for your given level then its a corner case. Because usually you are over it or under it. If you are *exactly on the dot* then it'll get correctd as you continue to progress through the level- without additional work by the PC's, if the DM is following WBL and allocating the loot accordingly.

To avoid further arguments along thise line, I amend my previous statement:

If the Barbarian is somewhere in the ballpark of his expected wealth and pays the crafter 2,000gp for a 4,000gp item, he will eventually go over WBL. Assuming all future treasures are divided equally, he will always now have 2,000gp more than the rest of the party. If he commissions more items from the crafter, he will end up even more above WBL.

Quote:

Now the problem with SKR's ruling is this:

The caster has the right to double WBL but no method to actually get it without obtaining from the group more than their fair share of the treasure.

You're base assumption here is wrong, which is why you're able to take it to absurd extremes.

The crafter doesn't get double wealth, so he doesn't need a method to get it.

The crafter appears to have extra wealth (up to double, but not necessarily double) because he only counts crafted items at cost.

Let's look at an example 3rd level party.

Each of the 4 members has close to 3,000gp worth of money, jewels, goods, and gear. Maybe they have a little more, maybe a little less, but they all close to their expected WBL.

As his 3rd level feat, the crafter picks up Craft Wondrous Item. The party adventures, and eventually levels up to 4th level. They found some treasure, sold some loot, bought some items, and used some consumables, and now they all have, more or less, 6,000gp worth of stuff.

During this time the crafter used some of the money he had saved already along with some of the money he earned adventuring, or from selling back items from his share of the loot to craft himself a Cloak of Protection +1, some Bracers of Armour +2, and a Handy Haversack. These cost him 3,500gp out of the 6,000gp that he currently has leaving him with only 2,500gp worth of stuff remaining.

So, when you add up the value of his 2,500gp worth of stuff, and the 7,000gp price of the items he crafted, it would seem the crafter has 9,500gp worth of stuff, well over his expected level. But, when he adds up his wealth, he only counts his crafted items at half, 2500gp and 3500gp is 6000gp, which is just about what he should have. Even if the crafter only had 5,990gp or 5,914gp, or 6,097gp the example is still sound because when he leveled up he had close to what he should have.

Even if we waited until he was halfway to 5th level, he would have had somewhere between 6,000gp and 10,500gp and he still would have appeared to have 3500gp more.

So, the crafter doesn't need anything extra; he gets all the extra he's entitled simply from crafting. Provided he crafts only for himself.

When he starts crafting for others, too, a problem arises. Now, the other members of his party are getting extra, too (just like the crafter). Except, unlike the caster, the others aren't entitled to any extra. When they add up their wealth, they add all items at full price.

So, now, everyone has extra they aren't supposed to just as if the GM had gotten over generous and dropped too much treasure. Except the caster, he doesn't have any extra he isn't supposed to, as if the GM dropped too much treasure, but the caster got a smaller share than everyone else.

Now, the problem that you were describing is seen. The caster is supposed to have more wealth than everyone else, but when he crafts for the party he doesn't have more. So, the caster needs to get more wealth from somewhere. Otherwise, the caster either can't craft for the party, or suffers having less than everyone else.

If the crafter charges, this is one way for him to get more, giving him more loot is another way, giving the rest of the party less loot is a third. However you do it, the crafter needs extra if he crafts for the party. If you can think of a better way to give it to him than charging, I'm all ears.


Banatine wrote:
Selgard wrote:

He's not. he's just using the RAW model of wealth distribution that says when the wizard crafts the fighter an 8k sword and charges him 4k, the fighter's WBL goes up by 8k not 4.
So while his liquid assets went down by 4 his actual "cost" is 8k.
So when you factor up how much his gear is worth its *worth* is 8k not 4k.
So he (by raw) gets 4k less "loot" which is supposed to even out the difference.

(which is why that ruling is so weird.. but whatever).

-S

Now, at the risk of sounding stupid, THIS is the thing i don't understand about you argument.

Because how i see it is, yes his gear is now WORTH 8K, BUT since he also has 4K that he wouldn't have had otherwise, isn't he now at 12K?

And it is definately something i would like to understand, because i intend to run a pretty long campaign soon (Slumbering Tsar! Joy!) and i don't want to bad crafting feats purely on the ground of me not really 'getting' WBL! Not that i might not just bad them for the plethora of other reasons we have raised in the last few days! :)

Well in reverse order:

WBl is as important, or not, as you want it to be as a DM. Thats really up to you. We have to argue it here because otherwise we *are* arguing our house rules. Luckily this is an advice thread- and thats really what alot of folks are doing. Saying X is RAW, RAW is stupid, heres a Y that works.

You got to 12k by saying 4+8 I'm assuming.
the 4 is part of hte 8 though.

the axe is worth 8k, regardless.
If i give you 4k to craft it for me, my wealth is now 8k.
Sounds like I doubled my money.

Except that if you are following WBL, then when the DM looks at everyone to see who needs what- I'm being charged 8k. Just like if I had spent 8k.

So if everyone in the group has 4k and there are 4 people
1 4k
2 4k
3 4k
4 4k

guy 1 gets a sword crafted thats worth 8k. It cost him 4k.
1 8k
2 4k
3 4k
4 4k

DM looks at the party and says "hmm guy 1 has 8k, the rest have 4k. I need to give the party 12k in ways that 2 3 and 4 can use it, to even it up."

so then 2 3 and 4 get money to even it up, and 1 doesn't. Because even though it only cost him 4k, he actually *has* 8k wealth.

(confused yet? me too. raw is silly sometimes :P).

It works *great* on paper. But in practice? it comes out sorta weird.

Even if the DM wants everyone to be at 12k instead of 8k he's still rewarding guy 1 less than everyone else- because of his sword.
Which ingame looks something like

*the king invites the group to his throne room*
Well done good and faithful servants. My Bob the Barbarian, thats a nice sword you have. I think I'll have to give you 1/3 less than I'm giving everyone else, despite the fact that you all went and risked your lives to save my daughter. Ahh well, them's the breaks".

RAW fails the "ingame" test. Which is why it seems so weird.
*it is weird*.

-S


Banatine wrote:
Selgard wrote:

He's not. he's just using the RAW model of wealth distribution that says when the wizard crafts the fighter an 8k sword and charges him 4k, the fighter's WBL goes up by 8k not 4.
So while his liquid assets went down by 4 his actual "cost" is 8k.
So when you factor up how much his gear is worth its *worth* is 8k not 4k.
So he (by raw) gets 4k less "loot" which is supposed to even out the difference.

(which is why that ruling is so weird.. but whatever).

-S

Now, at the risk of sounding stupid, THIS is the thing i don't understand about you argument.

Because how i see it is, yes his gear is now WORTH 8K, BUT since he also has 4K that he wouldn't have had otherwise, isn't he now at 12K?

And it is definately something i would like to understand, because i intend to run a pretty long campaign soon (Slumbering Tsar! Joy!) and i don't want to bad crafting feats purely on the ground of me not really 'getting' WBL! Not that i might not just bad them for the plethora of other reasons we have raised in the last few days! :)

Banatine, the point that Selgard is making is that at any given time the GM is going to calculate your character's WBL value according to the prices for the items in the pricing guide. It doesn't matter how the character got it, whether he bought it from a shop, looted it from a dead enemy or had a fellow PC make it for him.

So even if his armor "cost him" 4,000g, as soon as he puts it on, his actual wealth increased by 8,000g. So the GM won't give as much loot the next time.

The Sean K Reynolds quote here is saying that the only character whose wealth can be tracked at actual cost is the crafter because that's teh value of the crafting feat.

I think that's bull. A feat that so dramatically increases your wealth is, imho, overpowered.

That's the metagame description of the RAW that most people are quoting.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Selgard wrote:
Teamwork.

While I understand your point as well I think we have a fundamental disconnect in how we treat our groups. These are people who I trust enough to believe that they won't steal from me or stab me in the back these are not people I trust enough to loan money to or give my car to etc.

Teamwork again makes sense if you assume the team is always going to be together and lives out of each other's pockets etc. But if you treat it like a bunch of guys who got together and who may filter in and out as they accomplish their goals or die or get "too old for this s+&*" or get married. Then the only safe assumption to make is that making yourself stronger will make any group you are a part of stronger and that sacrificing that strength(by losing the WBL you should have per the RAW) may potentially make any group you end up a part of weaker than if you hadn't been a crafter.

I think the real issue is that I honestly don't think anyone else should get to have crafted gear if the feats let him craft. It's the simplest way to balance the feat and achieve what the FAQ wants you to do with regards to WBL and it makes the feat function like other feats in that it affects you personally instead of giving you an awesome aura that excludes you. I suppose my question is if you have a bard with "Inspire Courage" that gives everyone including himself +2 to some stuff but that bard could replace that with "Look at that Fool" which gave everyone except himself +4 should he be expected to use the second because it's better for the group?


Quantum Steve wrote:
Selgard wrote:
The logical assumption is that somewhere in between levels you are in between WBL's too. If you are 50% between 12 and 13 you could be 50% of the wealth difference between them too.

I agree

Quote:
If you are exactly on the very dot at WBL for your given level then its a corner case. Because usually you are over it or under it. If you are *exactly on the dot* then it'll get correctd as you continue to progress through the level- without additional work by the PC's, if the DM is following WBL and allocating the loot accordingly.

To avoid further arguments along thise line, I amend my previous statement:

If the Barbarian is somewhere in the ballpark of his expected wealth and pays the crafter 2,000gp for a 4,000gp item, he will eventually go over WBL. Assuming all future treasures are divided equally, he will always now have 2,000gp more than the rest of the party. If he commissions more items from the crafter, he will end up even more above WBL.

Quote:

Now the problem with SKR's ruling is this:

The caster has the right to double WBL but no method to actually get it without obtaining from the group more than their fair share of the treasure.

You're base assumption here is wrong, which is why you're able to take it to absurd extremes.

The crafter doesn't get double wealth, so he doesn't need a method to get it.

The crafter appears to have extra wealth (up to double, but not necessarily double) because he only counts crafted items at cost.

Let's look at an example 3rd level party.

Each of the 4 members has close to 3,000gp worth of money, jewels, goods, and gear. Maybe they have a little more, maybe a little less, but they all close to their expected WBL.

As his 3rd level feat, the crafter picks up Craft Wondrous Item. The party adventures, and eventually levels up to 4th level. They found some treasure, sold some loot, bought some items, and used some consumables, and now they all have, more or less, 6,000gp worth of stuff.
...

Its a problem with RAW, I do agree with you there. We personally deal with it by just quite frankly ignoring it. We literally aren't worried about how much wealth each of us has in relation to the rest of the group. We just aren't. I realize others don't work that way.

As for actual solutions? I'm not sure. Nothing really "fits" how any character would actually act in game, and still keep RAW going.

No character is going to sit there and let a crafter charge them extra.

No character is going to divide the loot unequally because someone else took a feat. Its the same thing as charging them extra, you are just doing it at a slightly different moment in time.

the DM can intervene and sprinkle treasure such that the crafter always gets more to make up for it- but even that tends to lead to some wonky results.
"hey DM, wizard boy sure is getting alot of loot lately."
"yeah I know, by RAW he's still behind though because of all the crafting.. I'm giving him more and more to make up for it".

There is no really elegant solution. Except to ignore SKR's ruling.

Not by discussion, but by impact, our group basically treats crafted items as a benefit just as to getting to pick what you want. Rather than looking at the +3 longsword in disgust, you get the +1 flaming keen bastard sword that you were looking for afterall. (or whatever).
The "increased wealth" part of it is largely ignored by crafter and party alike.

Clearly if your DM is tailoring the drops to the party that results in much less benefit to the crafters. My advice to them would be to take something else instead. Just like you would if the DM is running a campaign with absolutely no down time or something.

Its most definately a *very* screwy thing in the rules, and can lead to wonky results when trying to find a method to both stay RAW and not just metagame until your brain leaks out your ears.

-S

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