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Creating magical item for the party + small fee on the work = players uprorar?


Advice

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So, i have a crafting wizard and we're playing kingmaker, we just hitted lvl 5 and started building the kingdom.

I'm a LN mage follower of Abadar, the other party member are a paladin a LG oracle, a NG inquisitor and a N druid.

I decided to add a 10% fee on the creation cost when crafting item for the party (this mean that a belt of +2 str will cost them 2200 instead of 2000, which is still a lot better than 4000); this caused an unexpected reaction on the other players (not pg, players).

They now pretty much consider me to be a jerk, just suggesting this we're arrived to the point of them preferring to buy the items at full price and they said me this is not right since the don't make me pay for cure, tanking ecc ecc.

This was totally unexpected by this group since they are always very mature, am i missing something and being "that guy" without knowing? Is this some kind of delicate argument in the average group?

Some advice on how to deal with this situation will be most appreciated! :)


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

You may have just unintentionally pulled a jerk move. My best advice is to apologize, and let it be known that it was unintentional that you acted like in that way.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

In most groups there is an, usually unspoken, idea that PCs don,t charge each other for services rendered unto the party. This is why they compared what you were doing to charging for cures etc. Now it might be In Character for you to add a fee, Abadar is all about commerce after all, but trying to charge the party crosses a line that you might not have known was there.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

Our witch has also started crafting, originally wanting to charge 15%. My samurai insists on paying 30%.

I would have another go at discussing this with your fellow PCs in game - IMO a 10% crafting fee is more than reasonable, especially for a follower of Adabar (personally, I would be developing arcane financial instruments like stocks, crafting futures and crafting default swaps). If they don't want to pay 10% then you can come to an arrangement where their character spends an equivalent amount of time doing stuff for you (belt of str +2 = two days of your labor, so they can spend those two days gathering spell components, doing shopping, scrubbing floors in your tower, whatever).

If that fails I would content myself with only crafting to meet my own needs. If this is still causes friction going forward, talk to your GM about retraining the feat to something else.


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Back in 3.5 this was a lot more understandable, especially considering crafting cost the crafter a resource that literally couldn't be repaid (XP)- it was more than reasonable for the crafter to charge whatever he felt appropriate. Nowadays, it still costs you a non-renewable resource (one or more feats) but it seems like players in general are still irked by it.

If you ask me, it's reasonable. You're spending a portion of your character on crafting feats, and you're STILL giving the other players a HUGE discount (only charging 10% extra is practically nothing compared to full price)- not to mention in-game time (which, during periods of long downtime it's not an issue, but if time is of the essence, it CAN be a problem) but some players are still going to be upset. It's probably going to depend on the maturity of the players, and their personal preference.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Good advice from blackbloodtroll. It's a case of something that would have been totally fine in a real world situation, but generally not cool within the group dynamic of an RPG. Pretty much every group I've played with has a communal group mentality, meaning that they all do what they can to help each other, at no cost/profit, in order to give the group an edge, and have a better chance of success in their adventuring. It's an unwritten rule, but most groups seem to abide by it via gamer autopilot. I wouldn't say that you're "that guy", but you did skirt that little unwritten rule.


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Think about it this way . your are making money out of something that will benefit the whole party. your group is right !!!! If your charging them for a creation of items why cant they charge you for other services..like you mentioned...why should they heal you unless you pay them? they could've just left you to die when you need help and just loot of your body.

and trust me your group is mature for not doing anything to your character.since im pretty sure everyone will be pissed by that kind of item creation policy


Nermal2097 wrote:
In most groups there is an, usually unspoken, idea that PCs don,t charge each other for services rendered unto the party. This is why they compared what you were doing to charging for cures etc. Now it might be In Character for you to add a fee, Abadar is all about commerce after all, but trying to charge the party crosses a line that you might not have known was there.

With this in mind, PCs considering crafting should discuss this before taking the feat. While I'd agree that in combat characters should always have each other's backs IMO this doesn't automatically apply to things outside of the combat and healing. I wouldn't let the other deadbeats in my party ride my cool samurai mount around town to pick up chicks (the horse is *that* cool) and the party thief isn't splitting his pick-pocketing proceeds with the rest of us (assuming he's doing that, I wouldn't know).

Andoran

7 people marked this as a favorite.

Does the fighter charge you to intercept that ogre that's coming at you? Does the cleric charge you for cures? Does the rogue steal from you? Are you in fact, merely being greedy?


eleclipse wrote:

So, i have a crafting wizard and we're playing kingmaker, we just hitted lvl 5 and started building the kingdom.

I'm a LN mage follower of Abadar, the other party member are a paladin a LG oracle, a NG inquisitor and a N druid.

I decided to add a 10% fee on the creation cost when crafting item for the party (this mean that a belt of +2 str will cost them 2200 instead of 2000, which is still a lot better than 4000); this caused an unexpected reaction on the other players (not pg, players).

They now pretty much consider me to be a jerk, just suggesting this we're arrived to the point of them preferring to buy the items at full price and they said me this is not right since the don't make me pay for cure, tanking ecc ecc.

This was totally unexpected by this group since they are always very mature, am i missing something and being "that guy" without knowing? Is this some kind of delicate argument in the average group?

Some advice on how to deal with this situation will be most appreciated! :)

I personally think it would be cool from an RP aspect, but I can see their point also. If they are that bothered by it I would not charge them.


13 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Let's not make hateful posts. I do not think that will help at all.


wraithstrike wrote:
eleclipse wrote:

So, i have a crafting wizard and we're playing kingmaker, we just hitted lvl 5 and started building the kingdom.

I'm a LN mage follower of Abadar, the other party member are a paladin a LG oracle, a NG inquisitor and a N druid.

I decided to add a 10% fee on the creation cost when crafting item for the party (this mean that a belt of +2 str will cost them 2200 instead of 2000, which is still a lot better than 4000); this caused an unexpected reaction on the other players (not pg, players).

They now pretty much consider me to be a jerk, just suggesting this we're arrived to the point of them preferring to buy the items at full price and they said me this is not right since the don't make me pay for cure, tanking ecc ecc.

This was totally unexpected by this group since they are always very mature, am i missing something and being "that guy" without knowing? Is this some kind of delicate argument in the average group?

Some advice on how to deal with this situation will be most appreciated! :)

I personally think it would be cool from an RP aspect, but I can see their point also. If they are that bothered by it I would not charge them.

I agree Omnipotent one let them purchase their items from the local magic shop instead of charging them and save time to help the Lord Wraithstrike rule all.


10 people marked this as a favorite.
eleclipse wrote:

So, i have a crafting wizard and we're playing kingmaker, we just hitted lvl 5 and started building the kingdom.

I'm a LN mage follower of Abadar, the other party member are a paladin a LG oracle, a NG inquisitor and a N druid.

I just realized that every single other member of your party can potentially craft as well. I would politely apologize to them for causing such a stir, admit that your character is too selfish to be trusted with this power and ask the GM to allow you to take another feat instead. Let one of the less selfish characters spend a feat to take on the charity crafting mantle.

*Grabs bucket of popcorn and waits eagerly*


Wraithstrike Minion #1 wrote:


I agree Omnipotent one let them purchase their items from the local magic shop instead of charging them and save time to help the Lord Wraithstrike rule all.

Always the thoughtful one when it comes to world domination.

<gives Wraithstrike Minion #1 someone's soul as a reward>

Team Wraithstrike rules.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

I think it would be fine from a RP perspective if you were tithing that 10% to your church - and make it clear to the group that is what your are using the 10% for.

Down the track the church may then step in to assist the kingdom in some way because you (and the party by extension) have been so supportive of it.

In Kingmaker you can easily create an in-game purpose for that money that none of the other players should have reason to complain about. Talk to your DM about ways to incorporate the 10% into the game in a meaningful way. Have you befriended the kobolds? Perhaps the church is using the money to "civilise" the kobolds.

In my group we spent a squillion BP building a "spa resort" on Lake Silverstep just for the fun of it. Be creative and encourage the rest of the party to do the same :)


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Perhaps contributions to group items would be better suggestions.

Shadow Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
eleclipse wrote:

So, i have a crafting wizard and we're playing kingmaker, we just hitted lvl 5 and started building the kingdom.

I'm a LN mage follower of Abadar, the other party member are a paladin a LG oracle, a NG inquisitor and a N druid.

I decided to add a 10% fee on the creation cost when crafting item for the party (this mean that a belt of +2 str will cost them 2200 instead of 2000, which is still a lot better than 4000); this caused an unexpected reaction on the other players (not pg, players).

They now pretty much consider me to be a jerk, just suggesting this we're arrived to the point of them preferring to buy the items at full price and they said me this is not right since the don't make me pay for cure, tanking ecc ecc.

This was totally unexpected by this group since they are always very mature, am i missing something and being "that guy" without knowing? Is this some kind of delicate argument in the average group?

Some advice on how to deal with this situation will be most appreciated! :)

play your character, if the pc's in the group dont agree with what you are doing that sucks for them. your character is doing what it does. in game decisions should have in game conciquences.

now if they are acting like a bunch of b%$!~es in RL then screw them and knock the price up to 40% for them metagaming. you dont NEED to make them items, and they would be saving money no matter what you charge them, as long as its less then the book price.

this situation would be like players crying over the gm deciding that magic items in this section of the world are rare, so they cost more.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
TheSideKick wrote:
eleclipse wrote:

So, i have a crafting wizard and we're playing kingmaker, we just hitted lvl 5 and started building the kingdom.

I'm a LN mage follower of Abadar, the other party member are a paladin a LG oracle, a NG inquisitor and a N druid.

I decided to add a 10% fee on the creation cost when crafting item for the party (this mean that a belt of +2 str will cost them 2200 instead of 2000, which is still a lot better than 4000); this caused an unexpected reaction on the other players (not pg, players).

They now pretty much consider me to be a jerk, just suggesting this we're arrived to the point of them preferring to buy the items at full price and they said me this is not right since the don't make me pay for cure, tanking ecc ecc.

This was totally unexpected by this group since they are always very mature, am i missing something and being "that guy" without knowing? Is this some kind of delicate argument in the average group?

Some advice on how to deal with this situation will be most appreciated! :)

play your character, if the pc's in the group dont agree with what you are doing that sucks for them. your character is doing what it does. in game decisions should have in game conciquences.

now if they are acting like a bunch of b!%~@es in RL then screw them and knock the price up to 40% for them metagaming. you dont NEED to make them items, and they would be saving money no matter what you charge them, as long as its less then the book price.

this situation would be like players crying over the gm deciding that magic items in this section of the world are rare, so they cost more.

Terribad advice.

By acting like an a$*$*~! because the other players feel they're rendering THEIR services for FREE you're only going to make drama. The rest of the party will probably start hoarding loot too because "well HE is just going to get our share of the gold when we ask him to make us magic items anyways."


3 people marked this as a favorite.

i dont think taking 10% for making an item is much at all, i would be perfectly happy with that deal as a player.
Taking crafting feats is switching gear "power" for real useful feats.
Considering the time it will take you to craft some of the more powerful items your group will want in the future it would be strange for a "friend" to spend 50 days crafting just because he is a nice guy.
You could say that the magic crafting guild in your kingdom wont let you sell items for less, as it would ruin future Bp income.


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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Using the 10% to create a party fund for group items will keep in character and not piss off fellow players. Things like healing wands and portable holes are good candidates.

Shadow Lodge

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CommandoDude wrote:


Terribad advice.

By acting like an a@@!!$# because the other players feel they're rendering THEIR services for FREE you're only going to make drama. The rest of the party will probably start hoarding loot too because "well HE is just going to get our share of the gold when we ask him to make us magic items anyways."

but the fallacy with what you're saying is that the services they render have a price. he is investinf feats and time into making something for a lower cost for his party. they are not.

if they chose to make a mercenary type character that charged by the head, i would allow that in my party. my character wouldnt like it, but i THE PLAYER would not care.

if you, as a player cannot distinguish between RL and FANTASY then you dont need to play this game. it is not healthy for you. but if you decided to act as you SHOULD in game while ROLE PLAYING then you could justify that a *neutral evil* character would kill this guy in his sleep. if you want to get all pissy because of role play STAY THE F%+% OFF MY TABLE, because i dont care. if my character dies it sucks, but i dont allow myself to form an attachment with a piece of paper. i roll up a new guy or i have an agreement with the party that if i die i get raised.

in game actions have in game concequences... never let roleplay affect you the player.


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10% seems quite reasonable to me, you are giving them a 45% discount compared to the market price so I don't see why any of their characters would have a reason to complain. If they don't consider a 45% discount to be good enough then I'd say let them metagame and buy items at full price and just enjoy your cheaper items alone, in the end it's their loss.

But if it's really such a problem for them then you could always ask your GM if you can trade in the feat for something else and let one of them take it instead. If in that case none of them are willing to take the feat then that says enough about their team mentality (in that case don't trade in the feat, point this out to them and continue selling at 55% of market price), and if one of them does take it then all the better for you since you can use the feat to make your character better and still get the items at a low cost.


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Too me this is a Meta game issue the party is assuming that because this guy works with them he should make these things at cost. Now unless this party expects this of every NPC they come across and save their life its a bit odd to expect the guy pulling his weight for the group. Also the fact that these characters are complaining about getting a 40% discount.

This is why I always let my party know in advance that I am taking craft feats there will be an X% charge to make you somthing if thats a problem feel free to pay full price.

Shadow Lodge

Talonhawke wrote:

Too me this is a Meta game issue the party is assuming that because this guy works with them he should make these things at cost. Now unless this party expects this of every NPC they come across and save their life its a bit odd to expect the guy pulling his weight for the group. Also the fact that these characters are complaining about getting a 40% discount.

This is why I always let my party know in advance that I am taking craft feats there will be an X% charge to make you somthing if thats a problem feel free to pay full price.

^^^ +1

your character is getting a lower cost, they dont know the actual cost for making the item is 50% unless they also have said feats. so they should be over joyed at the idea of getting 40% off. ask how many people who shop for clothing would pass up a 40% off sale.

YOU THE PLAYER are getting pissy, not your character, over this.

in game actions have in game concequences... and letting your team have 40% off should be reason enough to put this guy on your shoulder like a hero.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
TheSideKick wrote:
CommandoDude wrote:


Terribad advice.

By acting like an a@@!!$# because the other players feel they're rendering THEIR services for FREE you're only going to make drama. The rest of the party will probably start hoarding loot too because "well HE is just going to get our share of the gold when we ask him to make us magic items anyways."

but the fallacy with what you're saying is that the services they render have a price. he is investinf feats and time into making something for a lower cost for his party. they are not.

if they chose to make a mercenary type character that charged by the head, i would allow that in my party. my character wouldnt like it, but i THE PLAYER would not care.

if you, as a player cannot distinguish between RL and FANTASY then you dont need to play this game. it is not healthy for you. but if you decided to act as you SHOULD in game while ROLE PLAYING then you could justify that a *neutral evil* character would kill this guy in his sleep. if you want to get all pissy because of role play STAY THE F#$+ OFF MY TABLE, because i dont care. if my character dies it sucks, but i dont allow myself to form an attachment with a piece of paper. i roll up a new guy or i have an agreement with the party that if i die i get raised.

in game actions have in game concequences... never let roleplay affect you the player.

I would not say he acting like _____, but neither would I say that the player should have _____ level of investment either. At the end of the day the game is a social activity, and one must weigh consequences vs results.

That is why people's characters don't get kicked out of groups or killed for stealing, being virtually useless, and so on(many other reasons.

PC1:Why am I not getting my share of the loot.
PC2:You didn't do anything but hide. Actually you never do anything. When you become useful you get paid.
PC1:My job is to talk to people not fight.
PC2:We have been in the woods for 4 months, and it will probably be 2 more months so unless village manifest itself you either better learn how to use that dagger or expect to not get paid to tag along behind us.

If that were to happen at many tables RL arguments would take place even though PC1 really is not earning his pay.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I agree that because it costs you a feat, 10% is not outrageous. explain this out of character, and maybe your fellow players will understand, if not, well its a game, figure out what will be more fun for you

EDIT: and the group

Shadow Lodge

wraithstrike wrote:

I would not say he acting like _____, but neither would I say that the player should have _____ level of investment either. At the end of the day the game is a social activity, and one must weigh consequences vs results.

That is why people's characters don't get kicked out of groups or killed for stealing, being virtually useless, and so on(many other reasons.

PC1:Why am I not getting my share of the loot.
PC2:You didn't do anything but hide. Actually you never do anything. When you become useful you get paid.
PC1:My job is to talk to people not fight.
PC2:We have been in the woods for 4 months, and it will...

but this is no longer an excuse. all characters, in pathfinder, have combat functionallity. they all can contribute in one way shape of form. even a fighter, who we can all agree is the most screwed when it comes to skill choices, can be useful out of combat.

Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (engineering) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Survival (Wis), all have a place in role play when not fighting.

so the "you only hide in the corner" example, would not fly in a game i was playing. and i have kicked player out of my group temporarily, they usually come back and change what ever was causing the problem. it has only happened 3 times in 15 years but it has happened.

i will use an example:

i was playing a game, and our healer charged us for healing. he didnt contribute in combat at all. any spell he cast he charged as if it was an npc cast. now i thought this was hilarious out of game, but after 3 combats my character was done. the healer was left in the middle of the night after his shift of guard duty. he had to roll a new guy because he was voted out of the group.

Osirion

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Unless the party is evil, I would advise against charging the other players. There is generally a common understanding that characters will provide whatever they can for the other members of the party at no charge. There are two things you should consider:

The magic item crafting rules are generally made so that players cannot profit from them. That's why items sell for 50% and also cost 50% of the list price to create. Old/unneeded item + item creation feat = new item of same value. I realize this is not perfect, since coins and raw treasure can be added to item creation at double value, but still. The intent is that players don't make money -- we're supposed to be adventurers (or rulers, as the case may be) but not merchants. By charging the other players, you are making a profit from item creation. Even if it's a smaller profit than the rules say is possible, it can be considered exploiting a loophole.

Second, Kingmaker allows for lots of time and money, the resources needed to craft items. If you treat your fellow players like this now, things may well be reversed in the next campaign. When Kingmaker is over and you move on to the next adventure path, it could be a different player who has the item creation feats. I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that there will be less time and less money to craft in any other campaign. Therefore, your money will be more precious and the crafters time will be much more limited. Those conditions make it more reasonable to charge for crafting services. And, since you have already stuck it to the rest of the group when you had plenty of time and money, they will feel completely justified in sticking it to you when they have less time to craft and need even your limited funds.

The bottom line: my advice is to be a team player and craft for no profit.


I understand, but many groups put up with such things to "keep the peace". I think the social contract of the OP's group needs to be reexamined. Some groups even allow PvP if it seems reasonable. Other groups would never accept it.
I personally think the 10% idea is cool especially since in KM the characters don't necessarily know each other at the beginning. If I was the OP I would just trade the feat out, or not craft anything for them. It is really not much different than a friend fixing your car in real life. I rather pay him at a discounted price than go to some autoshop, and pay full price.


Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Tales Subscriber

First of all i suggest to not use crafting feats AT ALL while playing Kingmaker, it can really ruin the game. Seriously tell your DM to ban them.
Now as far as charging other party members, i guess it depends on the difficulty of the game, if for example the game is a very hard one and each character needs every advantage it can get then i am against charging the other party members, if on the other hand it's a more easy game then i would be ok with something like that IF it simply wasn't player greed and it was an IC thing.

Shadow Lodge

Obirandiath wrote:

Unless the party is evil, I would advise against charging the other players. There is generally a common understanding that characters will provide whatever they can for the other members of the party at no charge. There are two things you should consider:

The magic item crafting rules are generally made so that players cannot profit from them. That's why items sell for 50% and also cost 50% of the list price to create. Old/unneeded item + item creation feat = new item of same value. I realize this is not perfect, since coins and raw treasure can be added to item creation at double value, but still. The intent is that players don't make money -- we're supposed to be adventurers (or rulers, as the case may be) but not merchants. By charging the other players, you are making a profit from item creation. Even if it's a smaller profit than the rules say is possible, it can be considered exploiting a loophole.

i have to disagree with this 100%. its very easy to make money off crafting magic items. and yes they have the ability in the rules to be a merchant. diplomacy + profession can make you very good money in down time. not to mention that if you chose to open your own magic item shop, ive done this and it was very great for roleplaying even though it didnt add much gold over all, and charge full price -10% to beat all of the other crafting shops in the book.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion Subscriber

Wow. •Every• PC invests in the team. The crafter of course is entitled to charge, but so too can the face negotiate his own rewards, exclusive of the party. The fighter can choose to intercept the baddie trading his investment in armor, weapons and hit points to keep the wizard safe. The cleric raised his charisma to get extra channels, again an investment. My point is that directly profiting from PCa is simply bad form.

GNOME

Shadow Lodge

FireberdGNOME wrote:

Wow. •Every• PC invests in the team. The crafter of course is entitled to charge, but so too can the face negotiate his own rewards, exclusive of the party. The fighter can choose to intercept the baddie trading his investment in armor, weapons and hit points to keep the wizard safe. The cleric raised his charisma to get extra channels, again an investment. My point is that directly profiting from PCa is simply bad form.

GNOME

if you roll play i would agree, but if you role play then i would disagree. but ive stated my opinion, and i hope that the op doesnt give in due to peer pressure. i hope he plays his character how he wants to and his party can come to an adult decision as to how to handle it.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

As far as RP your character is well within his rights to charge a fee.
As far as player cohesion, it seems the other players are, in fact not quite mature enough to see a: the RP reasoning b: the feat sacrifice you made or c: their alternative. If they pull the "we don't charge for our services" schtick they are IMHO devolving into debate, not participating in a discussion. It seems the best option is probably to desist in good grace, acknowledge publically what a shame it is they can't see beyond their own sense of "fairness" (that's the "grace" bit ;p) and move on. Make them their toys, after all, with your alignments, it SEEMS like you're all in it together...
As far as paying for magic items in the first place goes: this is what you get when you have magic shops, WBL, and a system that assumes certain magic item plug ins for encounter levels. You have my pity... ;p


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
eleclipse wrote:

So, i have a crafting wizard and we're playing kingmaker, we just hitted lvl 5 and started building the kingdom.

I'm a LN mage follower of Abadar, the other party member are a paladin a LG oracle, a NG inquisitor and a N druid.

I decided to add a 10% fee on the creation cost when crafting item for the party (this mean that a belt of +2 str will cost them 2200 instead of 2000, which is still a lot better than 4000); this caused an unexpected reaction on the other players (not pg, players).

They now pretty much consider me to be a jerk, just suggesting this we're arrived to the point of them preferring to buy the items at full price and they said me this is not right since the don't make me pay for cure, tanking ecc ecc.

Exactly - if they don't charge you, you don't charge them. Now you have your answer as to whether you should charge for crafting. You have chosen crafting feats as a contribution to the party the same way that the fighter chose Power Attack or the cleric chose Selective Channelling.

Yes, you were acting like a jerk. Go and apologise unless you want to be charged through the nose for services normally rendered for free to fellow party members.

On another front, if you charge for crafting, you end up with more usable resources than they do, which kind of unbalances things unless you take a smaller cut of the treasure.


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Thanks to all for the advice!

Personally i would agree with Humphey Boggard, UltimaGabe, Oceanshieldwolf and everyone on that line of thought.

This said i'm having fun with this group, we're friends and this is totally a first for us. I don't agree with their reason but i can understand them so, following Gallo advice, i'll just ask in "compensation" that the first church build in the kingdom is an Abadar church.

At the end, as TheSideKick and wraithstrike said (in different way), it all depend on the group and their way of playing; after reading this i realized that in fact in another group i play this will not be a problem at all since we roleplay a lot and we have fun with it; but in this group the "roll play" is much higher and the role play, expecially between party members is much lower.

The "cash for group" idea is also a good idea and i'll proposite it.

It should also be noted that in result of this i'm not so sure i'll take the craft magical armor and weapon feat since it don't have a use at all for me (and i saw some sexy talent on ultimate magic that are just waiting for me, and they can also be useful for the party plus the make my "surviva potential" higher, a thing that craft feats don't do).


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

This question/argument comes up on a regular basis.

Arguments that the other PCs should charge for saving the crafter (the tank putting themselves between them and a charging ogre, healing, etc.) are strawman arguments. The crafter is not talking about charging for casting spells in or out of combat, those he is providing at no cost.

Special forces groups, which seem a lot like adventuring parties, do save each other's lives and have their teammates back in and out of combat. But if one of them is skilled in carpentry, none of the rest of the team would expect/demand that the carpenter spends days or months doing carpentry upgrades (customs shelves, dining room table, etc..) during everyone's downtime. Come over and help paint, or fix something, sure, but usually there is a payment of somekind (like free pizza and beer after the painting job is done).

Those opposed to a small fee (and 5% of the market price is a small fee), are you telling me that you do spend days or months doing things for your friends, while your friends are off doing something else?

Why would it be any different in the game?

Shadow Lodge

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Dabbler wrote:


Exactly - if they don't charge you, you don't charge them. Now you have your answer as to whether you should charge for crafting. You have chosen crafting feats as a contribution to the party the same way that the fighter chose Power Attack or the cleric chose Selective Channelling.

Yes, you were acting like a jerk. Go and apologise unless you want to be charged through the nose for services normally rendered for free to fellow party members.

On another front, if you charge for crafting, you end up with more usable resources than they do, which kind of unbalances things unless you take a smaller cut of the treasure.

^ this the the exact oppoisite of rational.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
eleclipse wrote:
This said i'm having fun with this group, we're friends and this is totally a first for us. I don't agree with their reason but i can understand them so, following Gallo advice, i'll just ask in "compensation" that the first church build in the kingdom is an Abadar church.

Eminently sensible, Eclipse. Remember that in taking crafting you aren't taking feats that can immediately benefit everyone in combat the way they are. Crafting is how you are contributing to the community (a very Abadar trait).

eleclipse wrote:
It should also be noted that in result of this i'm not so sure i'll take the craft magical armor and weapon feat since it don't have a use at all for me (and i saw some sexy talent on ultimate magic that are just waiting for me, and they can also be useful for the party plus the make my "surviva potential" higher, a thing that craft feats don't do).

That's up to you what you do. I've made crafting characters before and never charged because I focussed so heavily on it, it was my big contribution to the group. I didn't do so much when the battle started, but they went in armed to the teeth and equipped with the best.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion Subscriber

TSK,
I am confused. You say charge, it's your character concept. You also say ditch the guy that charges. •Shrug•. I was only stating that making profit on your teammates is bad form. I did not say boot the player, I did not say tar and feather the PC.

GNOME


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
TheSideKick wrote:
Dabbler wrote:


Exactly - if they don't charge you, you don't charge them. Now you have your answer as to whether you should charge for crafting. You have chosen crafting feats as a contribution to the party the same way that the fighter chose Power Attack or the cleric chose Selective Channelling.

Yes, you were acting like a jerk. Go and apologise unless you want to be charged through the nose for services normally rendered for free to fellow party members.

On another front, if you charge for crafting, you end up with more usable resources than they do, which kind of unbalances things unless you take a smaller cut of the treasure.

^ this the the exact oppoisite of rational.

Um, no, it's rational, it's just altruistic rather than greedy.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

I shouldn't, but can't resist. So here goes...

Dabbler wrote:
Exactly - if they don't charge you, you don't charge them. Now you have your answer as to whether you should charge for crafting. You have chosen crafting feats as a contribution to the party the same way that the fighter chose Power Attack or the cleric chose Selective Channelling.

The comparison is skewed. You are comparing combat feats to out of combat feats, feats that take seconds to use and are only used for a few minutes per month to feats that take days and can take months to use.

If you compared the feats to out of combat feats that could be useful to the group, then I would feel that you had a stronger argument. Say, if another PC took Skill Focus Survival and provided all the food, water and wilderness abilities that the group used, while the crafter made items, then yes, a fee would not be appropriate.

But now you are saying the another PC should be forced to do something for your PC, which is not right on several levels.

Dabbler wrote:
Yes, you were acting like a jerk. Go and apologise unless you want to be charged through the nose for services normally rendered for free to fellow party members.

Could you give me some examples of services normally rendered for free out of combat?

Dabbler wrote:
On another front, if you charge for crafting, you end up with more usable resources than they do, which kind of unbalances things unless you take a smaller cut of the treasure.

That is a pure metagaming argument, and I see no way to put that argument into game terms that the PCs would understand. You are also taking it for granted that it will cause an in game imbalance. The OP has not stated what they intended to do with the extra income (which is not that great to begin with).

You mention that it is greedy for the crafter to charge a nominal fee. To me, it would appear that the other PCs are the greedy ones, as they are demanding an addition discount to the 45% that they are already getting off, they want 50%.

Please note that it appears that the greed has cost them the chance to get 45% discounts on their armor and weapons, as the crafter is no longer considering taking the appropriate feat.


Mistwalker wrote:

This question/argument comes up on a regular basis.

Arguments that the other PCs should charge for saving the crafter (the tank putting themselves between them and a charging ogre, healing, etc.) are strawman arguments. The crafter is not talking about charging for casting spells in or out of combat, those he is providing at no cost.

Special forces groups, which seem a lot like adventuring parties, do save each other's lives and have their teammates back in and out of combat. But if one of them is skilled in carpentry, none of the rest of the team would expect/demand that the carpenter spends days or months doing carpentry upgrades (customs shelves, dining room table, etc..) during everyone's downtime. Come over and help paint, or fix something, sure, but usually there is a payment of somekind (like free pizza and beer after the painting job is done).

Those opposed to a small fee (and 5% of the market price is a small fee), are you telling me that you do spend days or months doing things for your friends, while your friends are off doing something else?

Why would it be any different in the game?

This makes the most sense from an in-game view.

Shadow Lodge

FireberdGNOME wrote:

TSK,

I am confused. You say charge, it's your character concept. You also say ditch the guy that charges. •Shrug•. I was only stating that making profit on your teammates is bad form. I did not say boot the player, I did not say tar and feather the PC.

GNOME

i said handle it in character and play what you want. if he gets his character kicked, thats an in game result of his actions.

then i went on to explain that if you the player are getting upset over this then you the player, need to chill. that his in game decisions should not effect out of game people.

Quote:

Yes, you were acting like a jerk. Go and apologise unless you want to be charged through the nose for services normally rendered for free to fellow party members.

calling people names is not rational,

Quote:
Go and apologise unless you want to be charged through the nose for services normally rendered for free to fellow party members.

acting like a child is also irrational and not to mention alpples and oranges.

actually i like mist walkers post much more then my own, go look at theirs.


omg, this again.
You have every right to charge them extra.
This being said, do not do it!
It's not worth it, just be nice, apologize, and give them what they want.

There are tons of arguments for both positions, but only one that may lead to people being angry and leaving the table.


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The out-of-character-fair way to do it is to consider how much you could have earned with a Profession skill during the crafting time and charging them this amount over and above the materials cost. Oddly enough, you can't make money with crafting directly due to the design of the rules.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Mistwalker wrote:

I shouldn't, but can't resist. So here goes...

Dabbler wrote:
Exactly - if they don't charge you, you don't charge them. Now you have your answer as to whether you should charge for crafting. You have chosen crafting feats as a contribution to the party the same way that the fighter chose Power Attack or the cleric chose Selective Channelling.

The comparison is skewed. You are comparing combat feats to out of combat feats, feats that take seconds to use and are only used for a few minutes per month to feats that take days and can take months to use.

If you compared the feats to out of combat feats that could be useful to the group, then I would feel that you had a stronger argument. Say, if another PC took Skill Focus Survival and provided all the food, water and wilderness abilities that the group used, while the crafter made items, then yes, a fee would not be appropriate.

But now you are saying the another PC should be forced to do something for your PC, which is not right on several levels.

Actually I don't see how the comparison is skewed at all. The player has a choice about what feat he or she takes, but whatever feat they take it's assumed that they do so to increase their effectiveness, or everyone's effectiveness.

If the fighter takes Power Attack, it's a feat that benefits him, yes, but it also benefits everyone in the party by finishing off foes faster before they can hurt anyone else. Any feat that improves anyone's performance is contributing, and most of them do.

Crafting feats have the potential to improve the performance of everyone too, and taking a crafting feat means the person has NOT taken a feat that could directly benefit the party come crunch-time. Instead they have taken a feat that can help provide a kind of long-term buff to the party. Now if they still expect the party to help protect their ass in a fight when they are investing in out-of-combat feats instead of feats to make themselves more effective, the least they can do is provide the party with the gear to do so at cost.

Charging makes sense if the fighter charges for every foe downed, if the cleric charges for heals, etc.

Mistwalker wrote:
Dabbler wrote:
Yes, you were acting like a jerk. Go and apologise unless you want to be charged through the nose for services normally rendered for free to fellow party members.
Could you give me some examples of services normally rendered for free out of combat?
Other than:

  • Healing
  • restoration spells
  • long duration buff spells
  • bringing back the dead spells
  • Survival to provide food
  • other crafting skills that can provide shelter and other resources theparty may need

... I can't think of any.

Mistwalker wrote:
Dabbler wrote:
On another front, if you charge for crafting, you end up with more usable resources than they do, which kind of unbalances things unless you take a smaller cut of the treasure.
That is a pure metagaming argument, and I see no way to put that argument into game terms that the PCs would understand. You are also taking it for granted that it will cause an in game imbalance. The OP has not stated what they intended to do with the extra income (which is not that great to begin with).

This is true, but it being metagaming does not make it valid. It is also true that the player did not mention what he wanted to do with the cash. Then again, if he wants to make extra cash, nothing is stopping him from crafting items and selling them at full price to NPCs.

Mistwalker wrote:
You mention that it is greedy for the crafter to charge a nominal fee. To me, it would appear that the other PCs are the greedy ones, as they are demanding an addition discount to the 45% that they are already getting...

No, it isn't greedy of them because they are providing free services in return, as noted above. The OP is charging over and above that.


Mistwalker is soooo right i just can't express how much he is with words.

Sadly Richard Leonhart is totally right too, i suggested the thing yesterday on our forum; you can't belive what a mess this became in such a small time. It's totally not worth it (of course in my case, since i want to keep playing with this group of usually calm and funny friends).

Again, thanks a lot to all for the advices, it really help to see this much different views on a thing.


Achilles wrote:

Does the fighter charge you to intercept that ogre that's coming at you? Does the cleric charge you for cures? Does the rogue steal from you? Are you in fact, merely being greedy? [/QUOTE

Does the wizard charge for haste. Haste doubles a low parties damage output so should a sorcerer get 50% of the loot?

You are paying for him to 'waste' a feat.

It is however not something I would charge for because you are a team. I would say its not outright wrong but it *is* an unwritten rule.

I would stop charging but not because of roles in combat but because firstly what difference will a small bit of money do you and secondly its the right thing to do and finally because it doesn't really matter if you have *been a jerk* but rather if people think you have been.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Mistwalker wrote:
Special forces groups, which seem a lot like adventuring parties, do save each other's lives and have their teammates back in and out of combat. But if one of them is skilled in carpentry, none of the rest of the team would expect/demand that the carpenter spends days or months doing carpentry upgrades (customs shelves, dining room table, etc..) during everyone's downtime. Come over and help paint, or fix something, sure, but usually there is a payment of somekind (like free pizza and beer after the painting job is done).

OK, instead of carpentry, read gunsmith (that would be the equivelant of crafting magic gear). And because he's doing his gunsmithing, he isn't training with the team so much, and in scrapes they have to work harder to carry him through it (that's the equivelant of spending feats on crafting rather than on combat). I'd say using his gunsmithing skills to improve their weapons so that they can help keep him alive for free is the least he can do (the equivelant being making the items at cost).

Make more sense now?

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