Dragonfire8974 you keep quoting that paragraph without referencing the paragraph below it which limits the amount of work per day. I can see that you do not wish to read this but that is fine, it is your game. Enjoy - Gauss
but i don't understand what your point is?
Doram ob'Han wrote:
even if it only benefits the crafter, it is still the most powerful feat in the game. but that's a wonky limitation, IMO, but one that works for limiting the power of the feat
Agreed Selgard, however depending on the environment where you are crafting you might be using the 4 hours nets 2hours clause. That is up to the DM though. - Gauss
Unfortunately, going by RAW, SRK's clarification makes it such that only the caster gets double the wealth.
While IMO the DM has no business making PC's charge other PCs any price to craft- it IS his/her job to adjust drops accordingly to keep everyone on their WBL.
The caster gets double WBL for what he crafts- not the group. The benefit They get is spinning their gold into the exact item they want rather than what happens to drop, or what they can or can't find in the store.
Thats pretty much RAW. (the bit about the WBL is RAW anyway- the bit about the DM not forcing PC's to sell for full price to other PC's is just my opinion. RAW is silent on how PC's treat each other)
If the DM told me I had to sell to the barbarian for 8k instead of 4k I'd blink at the DM and sell it for 4k anyway. None of the DM's business what me and the barbarian agree to, in game. If I want to, i can craft the barbarian stuff and pay for it myself. Absolutely not his place to /force/ the crafter to take anything and if so how much from the party.
This issue is a party one, and one the DM should stay out of unless the DM is the source of the underlying problem (by slanting loot towards one group or another, or whatever). But telling the crafter he MUST sell for X price? Not his place.
My point is that you can only craft 8 hours a day. It seemed like you were trying to add more hours in a day. However, if you were trying to point it out like Selgard did then I think we had a misunderstanding.
A) Crafter without ring of sustenance can craft 8 hours in one day, 4 hours (2 count) if adventuring.
B) Crafter with ring of sustenance can craft 8 hours in one day, 4 hours (2 count) if adventuring OR 4 or 8 hours (4 or 8 count) IF they can find a proper space to work in.
The amount of gp per 8 hour period is either 1000gp or 2000gp depending on if you accelerate crafting or not.
I am still curious how other crafters help you to craft (other than being able to craft their own items or adding spells/abilities).
right, misunderstanding. phew... i'm sorry, i'm not trying to be rude or frustrating.
so there's a feat cooperative crafting which allows you to assist someone and it doubles the amount of GP you can craft when you're being assisted
Yes, that feat does modify the rules in that fashion. Glad we figured it out, thanks Selgard for clarifying things. - Gauss
*steeples fingers and taps them together in villanous fashion*
so if two crafters each took that feat and they each had a ring of sustenance, could they each assist each other in crafting for the day and net 4x the normal amount for the cost of an extra feat each?
*taps fingers together*
I sense a DM smiting players. lol :)
I would rule no since both players are crafting for 8 hours. But that is my interpretation on a grey area. - Gauss
but what if one of those crafters is a summoner who spec'd his eidolon for crafting with this feat, now we're getting to 8x with 2 characters
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Hey! I resemble that remark! That being said.. Profiteering implies raising prices due the buyer having no other option. Clearly, selling at a discount from the normal market would be the opposite of profiteering. It's more like charity :)
hahaha thats totally awesome :)
Eidolons have a caster level? IF they dont then there is no way they can do this. Note: spell-like abilities do not qualify them to have craft feats. - Gauss
You're mistaken. Eidolons possess skill ranks, which means they can qualify for Master Craftsman. Master Craftsman would allow them to qualify for item creation feats despite not possessing a caster level, which means they could take Cooperative Crafting at that point.
I agree with everything you said about RAW and the feat. And if the group is happy with it the DM shouldn't directly interfere, I suppose. The local mages guild will have objections to being undercut, though, if it happens frequently. If the party stops buying from them completely, then the local magic economy just tanked, and there is likely to be a guild war.
This is, of course, in addition to a steep dropoff in magic item loot for the rest of the party as the DM adjusts for their doubled wealth.
And Im'a start charging you 5 gp for every hp of the monsters I defend you from. See? I can make profit with MY feats too :)
Would cost 3 feats for the eidolon though (and 1 for the summoner) and would only apply to whatever the Master Craftsman feat applied to.
I believe you mean 'GUIDELINES as written, This ain't warhammer 40K. PC's can sell items to PC's for whatever their characters agree on.
Doram ob'Han wrote:
I don't necessarily disagree.. but its also extremely campaign specific.Once the PC's get teleport, the "guild issue" is irrelevant. They can go global and buy/sell anywhere they want to at the snap of the fingers.
Just using Golarion as an example- there is no "global" guild. Each city may have one, and you may even have one for a whole country.. but that next country over is just a snap of the fingers away for the group once they can teleport or shadow walk or whatever.
Best for the DM to just quit trying to heavy-handedly dictate how the party interacts and stick to other things though, imo. "the crafting guild" and all that is just another way of the DM trying to dictate inter party interactions. He shouldn't tell the party how to interact. This also means trying to force the matter by using outside forces.
I was extremely clear on the context.
You are using time you could be adventuring to make stuff.
What your examples are trying to say is that you could be making 1000 gp/day profit in your down time.
That's also not true. He will go out and fight, and he'll make a ton more then that. He just won't drag you along to do it.
Keep in mind that truly doubling the wealth for a whole group is almost impossible. The time constraints alone will see to that. 880k x 4 standard party is a good EIGHT YEARS of crafting time, doing nothing but crafting (okay, cut in half with a +5). Unless you have a pretty slow moving campaign, you just don't have time to do that.
they can also be tracked, and wizards will talk to one another.As soon as it becomes obvious that someone is selling magic items for less then market value, there's going to be a very hostile reaction. Word will spread VERY quickly. It's cheaper to hire assassins to kill the PC crafter off then for everyone to adjust their prices down.
SRK made a clarification saying that the feats worked that way. Crafters get double WBL but everyone else gets it charged full cost to their WBL.
Whether groups actually *do* that is a different matter. But its RAW at least.
I do agree with you in general though.
If the DM is so set on forcing his method of interparty actions on the gruop that he's going to send assassins after the players who don't do what he says, then I'm finding a new game. "Don't be a jerk" applies to the DM too.
"You will Not sell to the other player for less than FMV"
The DM does not get to tell the PC's they can or can't trade items, give each other items, craft items for each other or dictate the price they charge for each other. That is something for the players to discuss and decide upon. Trying to "use the game world" to twist the player's arms into doing what he wants, is just as wrong as just instructing them how to act.
I'm not hanging around for that game anymore than I am the game where the crafter thinks its his right to steal 10% off the top for selecting a feat. Both are wrong.
Do you guys really have DM's who try to tell the PC's they can't trade items? pass an item down when they find an upgrade? dictate to the group what they charge each other for things the group does?
I was referring to the fact that jumping to other cities to avoid price monopolies is a form of metagaming. It's equivalent to criminals running to another country to get away from laws they broke. The law WILL come after you, be it Guild or Nation. And, you know, lawmakers talk to one another.
Between players is a non-issue. The DM has no say in that.
my dm actually has asked us to not take the items from dead pcs. i'd ask the dm to tell me how much wealth he wants us to have in items, then do something else with the rest of the gold for RP. like one character is going to forge some adamantine blades for gifts now that we're on diplomatic missions, crafting guns and scopes for our peasants to defend themselves, and then enchanting our store-rooms and marble statues for fountains. I always hope the pcs in my games would do that when I impose a buy limit and give them about 10x wealth
How is it metagaming?
If I live in Atlanta and someone tells me I'm selling for too little, I can go to Memphis and try to sell there.
Now its true the guys in Memphis may not like it either- but to call it metagaming to escape an unfavorable market for a more favorable one? I'm not sure I go for that.
Metagaming is using knowledge the player has that the chacter doesn't, to make ingame decisions.
I'm not sure how that applies here.
I was in one were we rolled the dead PC, but took the family ring he had and gave it back to the family because it belonged to him/the family and not to the group.
I can definately see the DM saying that adding one dead PC to the wealth is going to seriously unbalance it. I could also see the DM saying it wasn't exactly a lawful act to loot your fallen comrade.
well... in my group it is an issue of wealth distribution the GM think it makes us too rich, so we justify it IG why we don't take their stuff.
Yep, I agree, we've had that happen ourselves. (just not in our current campaign).
it just seems different:
2) the DM says the crafter isn't allowed to sell to the group for what he wants to sell to the group for.
I guess to me, 2 is like.
Like i said, maybe its a false distinction thats just in my head. I dunno. But its still how I feel about it.
You're thinking American politics, let the seller beware...anyone can sell for anything.
Think Medievel. Think guild monopoly.
A PC who sets up shop and starts consistently selling to customers (and not resellers) for 90% is basically forcing ALL resellers to sell at 90%. When you're talking items worth hundreds of thousands of gp, with all the costs and risks not being taken by this traveling PC, 10% of 500k is 50k gp...that's a MASSIVE hit to the guild's income.
Rather then take a 50k hit to income, the guild will spend 25k, hire a team of assassins, take you out, sell your loot to recoup the loss, and proceed on with their monopoly, making sure the story spreads about how you tried to cross the guild(s) and were made an example of.
This is EXACTLY the kind of thing that happened with guilds where there's no strong rule of law to protect consumers. It's still going on in China and similar places, where the law doesn't care.
I had a professor tell me that he knows the owner of a company in China who prints his textbook. If he came across someone on a streetcorner selling a copy of his textbook new for underprice, or a copy of it, he'd call up his friend, and his friend's invisible '9th company' would pay a visit to the street vendor, who would not show up for business the next day.
And we're talking about lot smaller amounts of money then 50k gp. 50k gp can keep an entire city going for a year (see Thuvia, Sun Orchard Elixir). for the money you might cost them by undercutting sales to end users, the guilds WILL go after you.
I know man, i agree with you. i'd rather the GM set a gp limit of things that can be crafted, or percentage or something like that
where does it stop? i think we're talking about a group selling to eachother.
hahaha i just though of the funniest bbeg for a high level campaign. because high level people are a magic item shop's only customers, they're trying to make them buy all their items
not sure if it's been said, but i can't find much discussion about it...
If there were two wizards, one using feats to beef himself up to be a more effective and devestating caster, and the other uses feats for crafting and improving the power-level of the party as a whole.
The Crafting wizard is missing out on a huge power-boost of an effective feat progression, while the rest of the party benefits for having more gold. In order to make up for that power loss, the wizard needs better items to be on par with a non-crafter.
If the rest of the party has to pay full price for their items, then both wizards are around equal power-level in relation to their party, as the party has the normal wealth.
If the rest of the party suddenly has more cash to work with due to the wizard's casting feats, the wizard begins to lag behind the party. The GM scales up the encounters. the rest of the party has the Gear and Feats to handle these threats, but the Crafter has gear equivalent to the party, but not the feats.
If the party gives the Crafter some extra cash, Crafter can afford to properly Equip themselves to face the challenges that the rest of the party can handle.
There isn't really a power-difference between the Crafter and Caster, but If the rest of the party is stronger, then there is a difference between the Crafter and Party power level, but not between the Caster and Party.
SO it makes sense for the party to give the Crafter a little extra so he can keep up with the rest of the party, as he lacks feats...
And now who's metagaming? The crafting guild, thats who.Unless your PC's have a home base and are going back to it and doing all their crafting and bragging about it all around town how's the guild to know? Answer: They won't.
Adventurers go out all the time and come back with loot. Heck, adventurer loot is the major driving force behind most economies, aside from those silly life extending elixers.
Its the DM who is metagaming when he decides some arbitrary guild is going to come hunting my character for using one of his feats for the group benefit, not the player who decides to change cities due to the DM being a jerk.
"The Answer" is for the DM to get his pointy little nose out of the PC's party interactions. If he's going to get his finger that far up their butts about it he should just ban the feat. Thats clearly what he's wanting to do anyway- he's just trying to make using it so onerous and annoying that no one picks them. Instead, he needs to grow a pair and ban them out right and stop tip-tpeing around the issue.
How the PC's deal with each other as to who crafts for what and how much is an issue for the PC's to deal with. The DM should sit back, relax, see how it works out, and then get on with the adventure.
And I expect the guild to get pissed at the PC's selling for half *to the public*. But they need to consult the game designers about that, not come trying to kill the adventurers. Or buy all the PC's stuf for half and turn around and sell it for full price.
Your post assumes that he's crafting 100% of the party goods and that they are therefoe getting the exact same benefit as him, but without spending the feat.
This is flawed in two says:
2) Even if he has all the feats to make all the gear: where is he getting the time? Now I do admit that there is time to make some stuff but every item for every party member? Thats a freaking ton of time. its just not realistic to assume that the crafter will be doing it for every person all the time. EVen if they are though- they are *still* getting to actually turn twice their cash amount into gear when by RAW the others are still limited to 100% of their wbl.
3) Now lets get away from weird RAW rulings and all that:
I've never been in a group that didn't have time to craft some. I've also never been in a group that had such an amazing amount of down time that folks were able to literally double the party WBL. I suppose in such a group, something might need to be done. My primary suggestion would be to go out adventuring instead of staying home and crafting, though.
whoa there. I'm not saying anything about selling to other PC's.
I'm saying selling to 'end users', and not 'resellers'.
Merchants buy from PC's and sell to others...resellers.
End users buy from PC's and merchants and use for themselves...end users. It's assumed the PC's don't have the time or connections to find/wait for end users, and end users don't waste time trying to find PC's for commission work when any crafter will jump at the chance to make 000's of gp/day doing a custom job.
PC's getting stuff from one another isn't selling at all.
And as for how the guilds might know such things...you DO realize you're buying tens of thousands of gp in magic item components, and those things get watched closely by those interested in such things, right? (Like, Guilds of theives and merchants). Remember, selling a magic item for full cost also means buying the stuff that went into it...and that's a LOT of money.
You aren't going to be able to keep secret the fact you're making magic items. Now, whether people can follow a teleporter is a different story...
If the DM can dictate full price he can say the crafter has to pay it all, or part, or whatever. and I just disagree with that. If the crafter wants to make an axe and give it to Billy the Barbarian its not for the DM to tell me that I can't. Or that I have to charge 2k 4k or whatever. He's telling me I can't treat BB like my friend and group mate and I don't feel that its his place to do so.
I completely see your point: the GM shouldn't necessarily interfere with character interactions. But maintaining game balance is the GM's job. If one crafter is making items for the whole party, then that is unbalancing the game. You know what I mean, because you've references SKR's clarification a number of times.
So a party mining a crafter is unbalancing, and even dragonfire has admitted that crafting for the whole party is overpowered. It's the GM's job to bring things back into balance. I suggested one way, and maybe that's not right for every group. That's why GM's should talk to their players. You wouldn't like that method of balancing. But, as a GM, I have to balance this, or this feat is vastly overpowered.
Paying the crafter is one way to balance it. That is clearly unacceptable.
Finding that the monsters drop less and less loot is another. (All of a sudden, as your party relies on crafted items, you find that you're fighting more and more natural monsters with no treasure.) I'm not sure how you feel about this.
Another way to balance it is that in-game actions (undercutting the big players in a niche market) have in-game consequences. You don't like that one, either.
Are there any ways in which a GM could attempt to bring this feat back into balance with Weapon Focus, Dodge or Combat Expertise that wouldn't lead to your quitting the game? I don't want to overgeneralize, but it seems as though every time someone disagrees with your play-style you say you'd quit that game. I'm sure you're not actually like that, but it does come across as being prone to abandoning games if there is any disagreement. I'd like to know how to deal with a player like that, assuming they are otherwise a good gamer or good friend.
To be fair, in Kingmaker it can literally be years going through that AP. Lots of crafting time...more then a few comments about that on the AP boards, too.
Savage Tide also has a CONSIDERABLE amount of down time in the middle of the AP.
Likewise, Jade Regent has months of down time in the first 4 AP's, and even the last two can take place over a couple of months. Serpent's Skull in the middle can be days or months, depending on how you play it.
For RotL I'm not sure if its just our perception or written in- but if it wasn't for the rule to craft on the run we'd be able to make very very very few items. The whole thing seems to be blowin n'goin from the start to the end.(which isn't a complaint.. just how it seems to be goin)
Haven't done the others cept savage tied, very briefly.
I disagree it is not a jerk move to charge 10% here is why, crafting takes time as well as gold, it requires both a feat tax and a skill tax both of which the crafter took even though a metamagic feat or some other feat would be more beneficial. Freddie the Fighter could have taken craft armor or weapon and master craftsman hell he has more feats to do it.
I play an alchemist and I charge the extra 10% for ma wands and potions mainly because I have spent the time to be good at it and early on in our adventuring careers I often made potions for them on my own gold to help out when needed. I also hand out extracts to party members free of charge. My group has no problems with giving our crafters a little more as they still get the items below cost.
I feel it is a dick move for the non-crafter not to give a tip to the crafter when he gets a discounted item. This is for your time to be able to make my gear better, thank you Charlie Crafter.
The time thing is covered waaay back repeatedly. Basically: use group time for group things. You aren't a craft slave. You don't get to charge to use group time to do group things, no more than anyone else does.
Saying you took a feat and someone else didn't and that entitles you to rob from the group just doesn't fly. You made the choice. Use your features for the group, or get out of the group. You are either a team player or you aren't.
That being said: If your group puts up with that crap, more power to you. Just don't be surprised if your next group doesn't.
Humphrey Boggard wrote:
80k friendly non-bannable posts would be awesome.
And I'd counter by saying: if the PC is going to take a feat to profit from the group rather than help it, he should avoid the feat and that temptation altogether and select something else.
If you just can't help but try to steal from the party when you take feat X, take feat Y. Get maximize or quicken (or whatever) and contribute in a fashion that doesn't require you to stick your hands into your friends pockets and relieve them of their share of the loot.
If I was in your party I'd pass up 20% for you to craft me an item and I'd take that other 80% and go buy another item. Your party is the one being a jerk and stingy after you took the feat and took the ingame time to make the item. I'd laugh at my group if they wanted me to make a magic item for them without a little money changing hands.
As a player I'd even ask the GM would he let me sell the Magic items for 10% of creation cost, because I know I would let the player. Magic Item Stores don't just buy the magic items they sell for the creation costs to sell to other players. It's called business.
Honestly Just laugh at your party while they don't take advantage of your very generous offer, because I charge 20% to party and people I like, 50% to people I don't like and the only one who would get it for free are my player cohorts who SERVE and WORK FOR ME SUCCESSFULLY.
Nobody is requiring you to buy items in house. If you don't want to buy items from a PC then don't.
Also, not that it's anyone else's decision what feats to take but even if that crafter only crafts for himself he's going to be much more effective (because he's gotten more from his WBL) than he would be with most other feats anyways.
Sorry Sel but if you can't figure out why your argument is flawed than you should probably not be allowed to use scissors or other sharp objects.
But how about I explain it again.
2) Now WBL is normally moderated by the increase or decrease of loot on mobs fought by the party, again agreed?
3) Now if you split loot evenly after killing mobs there is no way for the crafter to increase his WBL without everyone else also doing so.
As such if you allow the crafter to share the wealth but manage WBL in a normal fashion he will always lose because to level the party WBL to standard the GM reduces loot drops which also reduces the WBL of the wizard back to 100% instead of the 200% it should be at.
Now a GM could rectify this by randomly giving the Wizard huge reward money for no reason but doing so while remaining in character is far more problematic than just all agreeing to pay a fee which will make sure the Wizards WBL is higher than yours by the right amount.