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Creating magical item for the party + small fee on the work = players uprorar?


Advice

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Humphey Boggard wrote:


In Selgard's Khmer Rouge fantasy game a crafter refusing to give his 100% in and out combat is an enemy of the Party and ends up dead in a rice paddy somewhere.

In my party the time a crafter spends crafting is time he doesn't get to spend with his family, running his estate and pursuing his non-adventuring goals.

That is a lot of frog croaking’s; It is a simple but fundamental difference in what a party is, or rather what some call “off-time”, but I would call “out of the field” (in the field most parties are red Khmers killing off anything that they find evil).

In a group were the moment one returns to base is vacation time stuff like charging members from the old party money for services makes sense, lasts call this view “I want a bigger slice of cake”.
But in most groups that I have ever played in there is not really a difference between being home and being out; everyone is still invested in the common venture until the party finally splits, call in “lets make a bigger cake”.
If someone charge extra from something (to continue the analogies) is like the mechanic in a small construction company wanting a slice of the other staff wages for fixing and possibly upgrading the machine park between contracts.

If one takes it upon oneself to be the crafter, healer, tank or face of a party the party members have a right to expect you to fulfil that role to the best of you abilities, if you do not want that role, do not take on yourself and lest someone else do it. Taking up a role and then charging the other party members for it is just bad manners.

But the difference really seem to be:
Pro demanding extra money for helping party members = Non-adventuring time is vacation from all party-related activities.
Anti demanding extra payment for service = A Party is still a party until it splits up, both in city as well as dungeon.


Whether I ask for a surcharge or not depends on the character - a lot of my crafting characters are businesslike types, so for them it makes sense. Some are pure scholars, and they tend to craft party items for free. The surcharge is never very much - 5-10% over cost or so.

As far as how the rest of the party reacts, nobody seems to mind since they're still getting a pretty steep discount and I tend to put the extra cash into items I'll end up using on their behalf if they need it anyway. (Or, in one case, into a business that the PC was running where the other players were interested in seeing where it would go anyway.)

Basically it comes down to how much the players trust each other not to pull a screwjob, because as long as that trust is present any money that stays in the party is still working for everyone and the only factor in deciding whether or not to apply a surcharge is the characters' personalities.


Korpen wrote:

But the difference really seem to be:

Pro demanding extra money for helping party members = Non-adventuring time is vacation from all party-related activities.
Anti demanding extra payment for service = A Party is still a party until it splits up, both in city as well as dungeon.

In the game I'm playing in we're still very much a party outside of adventuring but we all have other *interesting* things to do during downtime. I'm playing a samurai and we're recently completed an adventure and we're using the time to tie up loose ends and pursue personal interests.

I'll be doing the following:
- Putting together a Viking funeral for our fallen Cleric of Gorum (at great personal expense).
- Doing legal research to figure out what should happen to a property that belonged to an (undead) nobleman that had no next of kin.
- Repairing relations with a town that we were driven out of due to a slight misunderstanding involving our barbarian.
- Doing a little cultural exchange by learning Western fighting methods from the Captain of the Guards (a friend after we saved his lord) and teaching Eastern fighting methods to any guards that care to learn.

Our witch (who recently took craft wondrous item) will be doing the following:
- Craftting magic items for the group.

The witch originally asked for a 15% crafting charge and my samurai insists on paying 30%. If this helps her get her wand of fireballs sooner, then bless her greedy, pyromanical heart.
[edited for uniformity of gendered pronouns. This is what happens when a guy plays a lady witch]


Hm, I guess the whole issue here is cost vs price vs value. Those of us who are OK with casters charging a small fee feel that the crafter is contributing something of greater value in their off time than the fighter who is -say- taking part in a cometition to earn a few extra bucks.

So, a few questions for the 'stealing from the group' people:

1: In the above case, should the fighter toss his winings in to the group pot? How about the bard holding a performance?

2: Since the group is equal, do you combine your starting funds into a common pot and divide equally?

To me, crafting items is the ultimate meta-game. The crafter is not taking this for any other reaon than half-price stuff. This is why SKR says the crafter's WBL is skewed.

I did a little research and found the NPC WBL and division chart, and it has interesting implications for the whole WBL issue:

At 5th level the PC's WBL is 10,500 gp; at 9th level an NPC's WBL is 9,000 gp and at 10th an NPC wil have a WBL of 12,000 gp. The chart says the breakdown of items that NPC has will resemble this:

Level Total GP Value Weapons Protection Magic Limited Use Gear
9th 9,000 gp 3,000 gp 2,500 gp 2,000 gp 1,000 gp 500 gp
10th 12,000 gp 4,000 gp 3,000 gp 3,000 gp 1,500 gp 500 gp

So that makes the PC's WBL exactly the average of those two NPC levels. giving the PC a similar breakdown gives us the following:

Level Total GP Value Weapons Protection Magic Limited Use Gear
5th 10,500gp 3,500 gp 2,750 gp 2,500 gp 1,250 gp 500 gp

Are you going to say that the crafter has to maintain that ratio as well?

Carla Crafter: "Sorry, I can't enchant your sword any further, you've already got it up to your current max. Want me to do your armor instead? That's a little low." -or- "Sorry Fred Fighter, but I already enchanted your sword, I'm going to enchant Roger Rogue's stuff so he catches up."

Pure meta-game sillyness.


Spiral_Ninja wrote:


1: In the above case, should the fighter toss his winings in to the group pot? How about the bard holding a performance?

As demonstrated before both of these amounts pale in comparison to a crafter charging his group. This does not answer your question but it does demonstrate that in terms of cold hard cash this si what's being done with time.

Quote:


2: Since the group is equal, do you combine your starting funds into a common pot and divide equally?

A loaded question. And an entirely different subject. We're speaking of established groups. If a crafter decides to charge people he just met he might find in-game wise it's much more palatable. After a while though one might find it difficult to swallow as one pc seems to be growing ever richer than the others.


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Diego Rossi wrote:
LazarX wrote:

It becomes an issue with groups like this because they feel the WBL balance sliding towards crafters when the crafter starts charging fees on them. Whether it's logical from an character or rp standpoint is irrelevant, they now see it as an end-sum game where you're "winning" and they're "losing".

"We are losing against other players"

It that is the reason, it is a horrible reason. But probably it is the reason, as there is plenty of people that feel that everything should be perfectly balanced and start crying and raging if they feel that they aren't as powerful as all other character.

I tend to side with my friend Cheapy on this: "Being OP is when you marginalize the other players."

It's not losing against the other players so much as gaining a significant power advantage over them.

Worse, it's at their expense.

If you want to talk about meta-game give me one good reason out of game why I should want another player to be gaining a significant advantage by means of taking money from the group for doing what is essentially converting the crap that drops into crap the group can use?

I think this is the real honest to god heart of it. Forget the in game reasoning, forget the charity or the generosity, forget the "well my time in game while the party sits around doing f#$& all anyway is more valuable than the bards epic performance", in the end when you get right down to it you are skewing things further in your favor then would normally be allowable. As a player I might end up rolling with it purely out of a sense of group harmony. However as time goes on and Crafter MacCraig has about three sheets for equipment and I have to hold all his stuff because he cna only make so many bags of holding, well we might be having an issue.

This is why I stand where stand. It's why divvying up that labor works. You can call it trite metagame nonsense if you like. I've seen games where such trite metagame nonsense gets ignored. It ends up with disgruntled players and frustrated gm's. Your groups might work differently. You might be happy little bundles of capitalist merchants for all I know. All I know is that the monsters are still going to try and murder me as hard as possible and that the GM is goign to see our skewed WBL and adjust accordingly. And it will hurt. It will hurt a lot.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Diego Rossi wrote:

So, the wizard must work 8 hours/day for free for the fighter sword.

Fine.
But the the fighter has the obligation to stand guard 8 hours/day outside the wizard shop. For free.
And the cleric has to cast his spells at the wizard request even when not adventuring.
"I will really benefit from getting guidance cast on me every minute while crafting. You don't mind staying in my shop 8 hour every day, right?"

Crafting occasionally something for cost is a thing, pretending that the crafter work for cost for months (or years, if you sum up all the time spent in a campaign) is unreasonable, as it would be unreasonable to ask the fighter to do guard duty to the wizard shop for free, the cleric to cast create food for the fighter extended family and livestock on a regular basis and so on.

Not only are you absolutely right, I LOVE this idea!

Roughly five years after arrangement.
Fighter: Is my +2 sword ready yet?
Wizard: Yes, it finally is. Here you go.
Fighter: Why did it take so long?
Wizard: It didn't. I finished it in the first 4 days. Been running this shop and crafting other trinkets since.
Fighter: What!? Then how come you've had me guarding your shop for five years?
Wizard: You didn't really think guarding my shop was worth two-thousand gold a day, like crafting your sword was, did you? Silly boy! Run along now.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I think that you are doing a great thing, you can point out also that you are casting magic just like they are in an event/combat state. And that you are contributing just as much as they are in that sense. Crafting is an extra thing that takes time and money from you/the party so wanting something from that, especially from a god of commerce is just excellent role playing.

Good job. :) Stick to your guns and maybe take the time to explain to the other players in the party that it is part of your character, and that they are still getting a very discounted item.

Try to make them see that if this were a real life situation, they would in fact be paying way more for the crafted/ magical item, and that the 10% is because they are your friends. Any body in real life would totally not just do it at cost unless it was like family or a really specific situation.

Shadow Lodge

4 people marked this as a favorite.

I'm with Amenthal: I've gotten a lot out of this thread, particularly about the (perfectly reasonable) motivations of people on both sides.

I've said where I am as a player (depends on alignment), but I've realized where I am as a GM, in terms of game balance. I think that was the problem with the OP's situation: the GM didn't step up and do his job. This debate can fracture a group, and if people like Selig are willing to leave a game over it, that's the GM's problem to fix.

As a GM, I think the rule at my table going forward is this: when a character takes a feat, that feat benefits that character directly and other characters indirectly. If I take Power Attack, I hit harder, which helps me directly, and keep the monsters from killing you, which helps you indirectly. There are, as far as I can tell, three feats that have a direct impact on characters who didn't take them: Crafting (I'm lumping them all together), Leadership, and Antagonize. They're all broken.

If a crafter takes a crafting feat, the direct effect of that feat will be to make it cheaper for the crafter to make himself items. In fairness, Carl Crafter's feat should no more net Bill Barbarian cheaper items than Bill's Power Attack nets Carl more damage. As dragonfire said, "crafting feats are the most powerful in the game," if they can transfer.

In my games, the crafter must charge the other players full price for making items. If they don't, then they risk incurring the wrath of the NPC wizard crafting guild. After all, if Carl is making Bill a +5 Holy Avenger, then he's undercutting the price in a very, very small market. And, like Tony Soprano, the wizard who relies on the small number of high level adventurers in the world to buy the +5 holy avenger that he worked on, at full price, is going to come after the scab who is cutting into his profits.

However, the crafter can not monetarily benefit from the members of his party. So, if he makes +1 armor, the 1000gp that Bill pays over cost to create doesn't end up in Carl's pocket. It has to go somewhere that doesn't mechanically benefit Carl: tithe to church, spending the night with a high-priced prostitute, buying a beautiful painting for his workroom.

That way, the feat can only mechanically benefit the crafter. Other characters can get something out of it: the exact item they want, when they want it. They just can't take the price break that is only intended, RAW, for the crafter.

That seems, to me, like a solid compromise, unbreaking the feat to a degree. No one player lines their pockets, and no one is turned into a wage slave.


Wow. Tons of posts in such a short amount of time.

One point I think we can all agree on: If the crafter is crafting consumeables (scrolls / wands and the like), his WBL will be lower than that of his party memembers.

If my wizard creates a scroll of (insert situationaly useful scroll here) on the offhand chance it comes in handy. Would it be wrong to ask for compensation for creating said scroll?

Or, should he just not bother with asking for compensation for the scroll and instead re-coup his losses via surcharge on thier magic item creation?


Some folks like RD and Diego seem to have come into the party late and basically didn't read a /bunch/ of posts. Not an insult to either of you it just seems like we're hashing out stuff we hashed out 2 days ago. So, I'll go back, and do some repeating. Catch everyone up.

I think I'm pretty much head of the "robbing your team of their gold is wrong. No one gets more than their fair share of the treasure by selecting one feat instead of another".

However, this exists with some caveats.

1) That the caster chose his own feats.
Wally Wizard is selecting his 9th level feat and decides Quicken would be good. However, Billy the Barbariand and Roddy the Rogue tell WW that if he doesn't take Craft Wondrous Item then they'll kick him from the group. Sad and dejected (and thinking they are both pricks) he buckles to peer pressure and takes the feat.
They then proceed for the rest of his career to force him to turn their gold into items, even before he gets to use his own feat for himself. They chain him down inthe basement when they have down time and go partying while he's forced to be the crafting slave for the group.
Poor wally. :(
Now this Wally of course, should find a new group. Screw BB and RR. Those guys *suck*. But he could also just charge extra.

2) That the caster is getting down time when folks get down time, and is using group time to craft stuff:
Wally the Wizard decides at 9th level to take craft wondrous item. While traveling he uses some of his spare time to make a couple items to himself but isn't requesting extra down time or anything for it. He's just doing it as he can.
Roddy the Rogue and Billy the Barbarian notice him crafting however, and start badgering him in town to stop partying with them and instead to go get to upgrading their stuff. Wally the Wizard would like some down time but bows to peer pressure and is basically enslaved at the request of his so called "buddies".
If he's crafting, at the "request" of the party, while he otherwise would be relaxing and taking down time, then he should be able to charge for it. Not because he took a feat. But because *they* are out screwing around and expecting *him* to work while they do it.

3) That everyone works together:
Wally the Wizard is 12th level and has 4 different crafting feats. He's spent all- or all that he cares to for the moment- of his free coin to upgrade his gear and has noticed that the Barbarian's axe is abit on the weakside. Just not cutting up the bad guys like it should. So, during the group's down time (while RR and BB are making camp, cooking supper, keeping the fire going, taking the watches, etc) WW upgrades BB's axe. When they get to town, the three of them sit down and look at what all things they have to do. They need to sell some loot, hit up the library, scmooze with the nobles, kiss up to the clerics. So they decide (they, not any one person) that RR will tackle the schmmozing gigs, BB will go take care of the library and selling the loot while WW hangs out at the tavern in their room burning a few hours to craft items. Later that night, the 3 of them meet up at the bar, share a jug of ale and toast to their awesome team work.
WW here has no need to charge the others for his work. He's working in time that the others are also working, doing his share of the other work so that he has more time to craft. While group work is going on, he's doing group work. When leizure time is to be had, he takes part in it. He's not a crafting whore. he's not being taken advantage of. he's working in a group, as part of the group, to further the goals of the group.

What's your group? I'm in a #3. All the group's I've been in have been 3's.

I flat out wouldn't be in a group 1 or 2. Those guys are jerks, in my opinion.

Some others have also posited groups that were like 3, but without the group being quite that tight knit, such that they were ok with the crafter charging 10% (or whatever) just because of the discount they were getting off the other crafters. I wouldn't be with that group either, without being a crafter myself to avoid the theft. Just simply selecting feat A instead of feat B doesn't allow you to get more than your share of loot. Not to me.

-S


Gauss wrote:
dragonfire8974: 1 day = 1000gp. If you are making a 2000gp that is normally 2 days = 2000gp. When halving the time you are making a 2000gp item in 1 day...thus 1day = 2000gp when halving the time. My statement is just a different way of looking at it. - Gauss

so as i've said before many times, a crafter should be able to find something to be able to craft 1k a day due to either the help of the party or with the help of a ring of sustenance. maybe both

but yes, it is true that a way to limit crafting is to not have adventures take long. but usually there's travel time, investigation, and usually that's a good chunk of time. sometimes you need more than 1 crafter to craft everything, or you can get around the limitation by taking leadership with a summoner cohort with the feats of the eidolon also for magic item creation.


Doram ob'Han wrote:
saying the DM intervenes

I would not stay in a group where the DM thought it his job to intervene in this issue.

-S

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Ravingdork wrote:
Quantum Steve wrote:
Expecting crafters to craft at half price is just as selfish as crafters expecting their party to pay full price. Both from an in-game and meta-game standpoint.

And this is the rub of it I think.

Can we come up with a mathematical formula that evenly disperses the effective party wealth among the party, assuming the crafter crafts for everyone else?

The caster's 'free time' has to be worth exactly as much as any other character's 'free time'.

So, if the most the other characters can make in their down time is 3d6 gp, then the most a crafter should charge for a day of HIS time is...3d6 gp. The wage of a high value professional.

10 gp/day.

Remember, cost of materials is NOT the factor for the caster. It's the fact he's got free time he's now converting into gold, and the other characters have free time that they are NOT allowed to convert into gold.

That's where the whole 'unfairness' argument is stemming from. The Crafter is making money off a feat, and nobody else is able to do the same!

==Aelryinth


Humphrey Boggard wrote:
Korpen wrote:

But the difference really seem to be:

Pro demanding extra money for helping party members = Non-adventuring time is vacation from all party-related activities.
Anti demanding extra payment for service = A Party is still a party until it splits up, both in city as well as dungeon.

In the game I'm playing in we're still very much a party outside of adventuring but we all have other *interesting* things to do during downtime. I'm playing a samurai and we're recently completed an adventure and we're using the time to tie up loose ends and pursue personal interests.

I'll be doing the following:
- Putting together a Viking funeral for our fallen Cleric of Gorum (at great personal expense).
- Doing legal research to figure out what should happen to a property that belonged to an (undead) nobleman that had no next of kin.
- Repairing relations with a town that we were driven out of due to a slight misunderstanding involving our barbarian.
- Doing a little cultural exchange by learning Western fighting methods from the Captain of the Guards (a friend after we saved his lord) and teaching Eastern fighting methods to any guards that care to learn.

Our witch (who recently took craft wondrous item) will be doing the following:
- Craftting magic items for the group.

The witch originally asked for a 15% crafting charge and my samurai insists on paying 30%. If this helps her get her wand of fireballs sooner, then bless her greedy, pyromanical heart.
[edited for uniformity of gendered pronouns. This is what happens when a guy plays a lady witch]

you are intentionally ignoring the fact that IG, crafting takes a trivial amount of time. i'd not point this out but i've had to point this out so many times i'm getting a little sick of it.

a crafter should be able to rush the DC to create an item, otherwise i'm sure some other people in the party would be helping out because that means the PC can't auto succeed which isn't good.

even spending 8 hours a day, the crafter can still pursue other things, especially with a ring of sustenance.

crafter without ring taking 8 hrs a day - 8hrs of downtime left in a day
crafter with ring taking 8 hrs a day - 13 hrs of downtime left in a day
crafter rushing without ring - 12 hours of downtime
crafter rushing with ring - 16hrs of downtime

still allows wizard to do research/investigate/do profession

10% isn't really trivial if you are crafting for everyone in the party. if you craft all their stuff, you end up with around 50% more wealth than others (crafter has 130% above WBL while the other characters are at 90%)


Dr Grecko wrote:

Wow. Tons of posts in such a short amount of time.

One point I think we can all agree on: If the crafter is crafting consumeables (scrolls / wands and the like), his WBL will be lower than that of his party memembers.

1) If my wizard creates a scroll of (insert situationaly useful scroll here) on the offhand chance it comes in handy. Would it be wrong to ask for compensation for creating said scroll?

2) Or, should he just not bother with asking for compensation for the scroll and instead re-coup his losses via surcharge on thier magic item creation?

I added numbers to your post to make it easier to discuss.

1) I guess it depends. If he discusses with the group, and the group decides that they need a few scrolls for some odd purpose (like remove blindness or remove curse, or those things that come up but aren't likely memorized) then the group could certainly pool their gold to buy the few scrolls. If its the wizard just deciding "hey I'd rather have these as scrolls" then thats his business, and his money and time spent making them. He's not getting compensation- the group is having him make items for the group.

2) If the wizard is making items for the group at the group's request then the group should be paying for it. If the wizard is crafting them just becasue he thinks he should, thats his business. "re-couping his costs" by stealing from the party isn't the answer. If he wants the group to pay for things he thinks the group needs, he needs to take it up with the group- not try some back door way to make them pay for it whether they like it or not.

-S


Ravingdork wrote:


Not only are you absolutely right, I LOVE this idea!

Roughly five years after arrangement.
Fighter: Is my +2 sword ready yet?
Wizard: Yes, it finally is. Here you go.
Fighter: Why did it take so long?
Wizard: It didn't. I finished it in the first 4 days. Been running this shop and crafting other trinkets since.
Fighter: What!? Then how come you've had me guarding your shop for five years?
Wizard: You didn't really think guarding my shop was worth two-thousand gold a day, like crafting your sword was, did you? Silly boy! Run along now.

you know what? if i was that fighter, i would shrug and say, "is there anything else i can help you out with? I really appreciate this."

EDIT: oh wow, i misted the roughly five years thing, this changes my opinion a lot.

over 15k days? that means the fighter's time is worth less than 1g a day, and we know that's not true, that wizard deserves to have his superiority complex shoved down his throat. they're companions, that's a real dick move for the wizard to pull

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Ravingdork wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:

So, the wizard must work 8 hours/day for free for the fighter sword.

Fine.
But the the fighter has the obligation to stand guard 8 hours/day outside the wizard shop. For free.
And the cleric has to cast his spells at the wizard request even when not adventuring.
"I will really benefit from getting guidance cast on me every minute while crafting. You don't mind staying in my shop 8 hour every day, right?"

Crafting occasionally something for cost is a thing, pretending that the crafter work for cost for months (or years, if you sum up all the time spent in a campaign) is unreasonable, as it would be unreasonable to ask the fighter to do guard duty to the wizard shop for free, the cleric to cast create food for the fighter extended family and livestock on a regular basis and so on.

Not only are you absolutely right, I LOVE this idea!

Roughly five years after arrangement.
Fighter: Is my +2 sword ready yet?
Wizard: Yes, it finally is. Here you go.
Fighter: Why did it take so long?
Wizard: It didn't. I finished it in the first 4 days. Been running this shop and crafting other trinkets since.
Fighter: What!? Then how come you've had me guarding your shop for five years?
Wizard: You didn't really think guarding my shop was worth two-thousand gold a day, like crafting your sword was, did you? Silly boy! Run along now.

Except the fighter's time is exactly as valuable as the crafter's time. The money is in the materials. The crafter's time is NOT worth 1000 gp/day, regardless of what NPC's sell their magic items for. They are marking up for convenience and other things.

No profession in the world is worth 1000 gp/day, except active adventuring.

The correct counter-reply to the wizard is "Those 4 days I could have been out killing trolls and cleared 15,000 gp. Now make me a suit of +2 mail...you owe me."

==Aelryinth


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber
Humphrey Boggard wrote:
Korpen wrote:

But the difference really seem to be:

Pro demanding extra money for helping party members = Non-adventuring time is vacation from all party-related activities.
Anti demanding extra payment for service = A Party is still a party until it splits up, both in city as well as dungeon.

In the game I'm playing in we're still very much a party outside of adventuring but we all have other *interesting* things to do during downtime. I'm playing a samurai and we're recently completed an adventure and we're using the time to tie up loose ends and pursue personal interests.

I'll be doing the following:
- Putting together a Viking funeral for our fallen Cleric of Gorum (at great personal expense).
- Doing legal research to figure out what should happen to a property that belonged to an (undead) nobleman that had no next of kin.
- Repairing relations with a town that we were driven out of due to a slight misunderstanding involving our barbarian.
- Doing a little cultural exchange by learning Western fighting methods from the Captain of the Guards (a friend after we saved his lord) and teaching Eastern fighting methods to any guards that care to learn.

Our witch (who recently took craft wondrous item) will be doing the following:
- Craftting magic items for the group.

The witch originally asked for a 15% crafting charge and my samurai insists on paying 30%. If this helps her get her wand of fireballs sooner, then bless her greedy, pyromanical heart.
[edited for uniformity of gendered pronouns. This is what happens when a guy plays a lady witch]

Except, since you can only work on one magic item a day, and for no more than 8 hours a day--which will more likely be 4, since any crafter worth his/her salt will be able to take the +5 DC to halve their time investment--the witch has plenty of time to be doing her own thing as well as crafting, on the order of 8-12 hours each day.


Spiral_Ninja wrote:

Hm, I guess the whole issue here is cost vs price vs value. Those of us who are OK with casters charging a small fee feel that the crafter is contributing something of greater value in their off time than the fighter who is -say- taking part in a cometition to earn a few extra bucks.

So, a few questions for the 'stealing from the group' people:

1: In the above case, should the fighter toss his winings in to the group pot? How about the bard holding a performance?

2: Since the group is equal, do you combine your starting funds into a common pot and divide equally?

To me, crafting items is the ultimate meta-game. The crafter is not taking this for any other reaon than half-price stuff. This is why SKR says the crafter's WBL is skewed.

I did a little research and found the NPC WBL and division chart, and it has interesting implications for the whole WBL issue:

At 5th level the PC's WBL is 10,500 gp; at 9th level an NPC's WBL is 9,000 gp and at 10th an NPC wil have a WBL of 12,000 gp. The chart says the breakdown of items that NPC has will resemble this:

Level Total GP Value Weapons Protection Magic Limited Use Gear
9th 9,000 gp 3,000 gp 2,500 gp 2,000 gp 1,000 gp 500 gp
10th 12,000 gp 4,000 gp 3,000 gp 3,000 gp 1,500 gp 500 gp

So that makes the PC's WBL exactly the average of those two NPC levels. giving the PC a similar breakdown gives us the following:

Level Total GP Value Weapons Protection Magic Limited Use Gear
5th 10,500gp 3,500 gp 2,750 gp 2,500 gp 1,250 gp 500 gp

Are you going to say that the crafter has to maintain that ratio as well?

Carla Crafter: "Sorry, I can't enchant your sword any further, you've already got it up to your current max. Want me to do your armor instead? That's a little low." -or- "Sorry Fred Fighter, but I already enchanted your sword, I'm going to enchant Roger Rogue's stuff so he catches up."

Pure meta-game sillyness.

so yeah, in my game, we all help out with our pursuits. if i'm going to run a concert as a bard, my alchemist is going to set up a brew shop, the wizard is going to create a little light show with a fireworks display, the rogue is going to do knife tricks and acrobatics as a warm up to the crowd. we all participate because if something happens we're all there.

fighter in the arena is a little harder to justify, but he has downtime and is board, or is doing the arena thing to forward the story. I think he should share his winnings if they are significant, but if it is 100g, let the dude keep em. but as a part of his party, i would be in his corner, and wanna help out if possible, but if all i can do is cheer him on, i'd at least wanna be involved, just in case one of the other combatants is going to pull something illegal on him, or if he's gonna die and not be revived, i can help


Aelryinth wrote:


Except the fighter's time is exactly as valuable as the crafter's time. The money is in the materials. The crafter's time is NOT worth 1000 gp/day, regardless of what NPC's sell their magic items for. They are marking up for convenience and other things.

No profession in the world is worth 1000 gp/day, except active adventuring.

The correct counter-reply to the wizard is "Those 4 days I could have been out killing trolls and cleared 15,000 gp. Now make me a suit of +2 mail...you owe me."

==Aelryinth

you also missed the roughly 5 years thing. methinks RD is just trolling now


Selgard wrote:

1) I guess it depends. If he discusses with the group, and the group decides that they need a few scrolls for some odd purpose (like remove blindness or remove curse, or those things that come up but aren't likely memorized) then the group could certainly pool their gold to buy the few scrolls. If its the wizard just deciding "hey I'd rather have these as scrolls" then thats his business, and his money and time spent making them. He's not getting compensation- the group is having him make items for the group.

2) If the wizard is making items for the group at the group's request then the group should be paying for it. If the wizard is crafting them just becasue he thinks he should, thats his business. "re-couping his costs" by stealing from the party isn't the answer. If he wants the group to pay for things he thinks the group needs, he needs to take it up with the group- not try some back door way to make them pay for it whether they like it or not.

-S

1) Discussing that before hand would certainly be the best option. In the italicized part: What if that scroll he created as a "I'd rather have these as scrolls" comes in handy and he needs to use it? Would he then be validated in charging the group for it?

-
2) I don't consider recouping losses as "stealing". Especially in the scenario I listed.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

dragonfire8974 wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:


Except the fighter's time is exactly as valuable as the crafter's time. The money is in the materials. The crafter's time is NOT worth 1000 gp/day, regardless of what NPC's sell their magic items for. They are marking up for convenience and other things.

No profession in the world is worth 1000 gp/day, except active adventuring.

The correct counter-reply to the wizard is "Those 4 days I could have been out killing trolls and cleared 15,000 gp. Now make me a suit of +2 mail...you owe me."

==Aelryinth

you also missed the roughly 5 years thing. methinks RD is just trolling now

Yeah, its a DC 0 check to ask someone how long it takes to craft a +2 sword from a +1, and since everyone is metagaming, the years just don't happen.

Their time is exactly as valuable. They both could be out adventuring and earning tons of moolah. The fighter could be earning several times the money of an NPC crafter by going out and slaughtering stuff every day, and gaining xp at the same time.

NPC crafter, assuming he can sell everything at full markup EVERY DAY, could net +365k in one year...and be the same level.

The fighter will net 880k, and be level 20, in that same year.

Fighter's time is WAY more valuable then the crafter's time.

==Aelryinth


Dr Grecko wrote:

1) Discussing that before hand would certainly be the best option. In the italicized part: What if that scroll he created as a "I'd rather have these as scrolls" comes in handy and he needs to use it? Would he then be validated in charging the group for it?
-
2) I don't consider recouping losses as "stealing". Especially in the scenario I listed.

i think the Idea with the party first mentality is that you'd ask for people to contribut to a CLW wand, or scrolls of selectively useful spell


Aelryinth wrote:

Yeah, its a DC 0 check to ask someone how long it takes to craft a +2 sword from a +1, and since everyone is metagaming, the years just don't happen.

Their time is exactly as valuable. They both could be out adventuring and earning tons of moolah. The fighter could be earning several times the money of an NPC crafter by going out and slaughtering stuff every day, and gaining xp at the same time.

NPC crafter, assuming he can sell everything at full markup EVERY DAY, could net +365k in one year...and be the same level.

The fighter will net 880k, and be level 20, in that same year.

Fighter's time is WAY more valuable then the crafter's time.

==Aelryinth

maybe than the NPC crafter, but the PC crafter will help you out tons. so yeah, its cool to help out the PC crafter with guard duty because he can't really be disturbed. or even better, you can help out with the crafting if you had the skill, then when you all have your upgraded gear, you all go out and bring death and destruction to all that is evil


dragonfire8974 wrote:
Dr Grecko wrote:

1) Discussing that before hand would certainly be the best option. In the italicized part: What if that scroll he created as a "I'd rather have these as scrolls" comes in handy and he needs to use it? Would he then be validated in charging the group for it?
-
2) I don't consider recouping losses as "stealing". Especially in the scenario I listed.

i think the Idea with the party first mentality is that you'd ask for people to contribut to a CLW wand, or scrolls of selectively useful spell

For wands? Yes. Not so much for scrolls as I generally use them as extra emergency spell slots. But I see how certain spells might call for some extra investment from the group.


Dr Grecko wrote:
Selgard wrote:

1) I guess it depends. If he discusses with the group, and the group decides that they need a few scrolls for some odd purpose (like remove blindness or remove curse, or those things that come up but aren't likely memorized) then the group could certainly pool their gold to buy the few scrolls. If its the wizard just deciding "hey I'd rather have these as scrolls" then thats his business, and his money and time spent making them. He's not getting compensation- the group is having him make items for the group.

2) If the wizard is making items for the group at the group's request then the group should be paying for it. If the wizard is crafting them just becasue he thinks he should, thats his business. "re-couping his costs" by stealing from the party isn't the answer. If he wants the group to pay for things he thinks the group needs, he needs to take it up with the group- not try some back door way to make them pay for it whether they like it or not.

-S

1) Discussing that before hand would certainly be the best option. In the italicized part: What if that scroll he created as a "I'd rather have these as scrolls" comes in handy and he needs to use it? Would he then be validated in charging the group for it?

-
2) I don't consider recouping losses as "stealing". Especially in the scenario I listed.

Unless I missed something in it (which is certainly possible) your scenario is that the crafter decides the group needs something and then uses the 10% recoup to pay himself back for what he thinks the group needs.

What I said to do was to ask the group if they wanted the group to pay for some things the group may need. If the group says yes, everyone tosses in a few gold and there you go. if not, the wizard doesn't get to use group funds to make the items. he either 1) makes 'em anyway and the group is grateful when they are useful and probably pays for 'em ('hey you were right afterall!') or you don't craft them at all.
You don't get to say "The group said no.. but I disagree, I'm going to make them anyway and make the group pay for them, cuz they are wrong and I'm right"

Which is really what "I craft items for them anyway and use the surcharge to pay for it" is saying.

If you want the group to pay for somthing, discuss it with the group. If you don't, then the group is under no obligation to pay for it. (whether they actually *do* pay for it is up to them.)

Now of course, the group could just as easily say "here are some scrolls/potions we want to make sure we always have on hand and the group'll pay you 10% on anything else you make for us, to cover those costs. Please let us know if it turns out to not be enough to cover it".
Then its just the group deciding a different way to pay for it than to toss coin up front when the items are needed. Either way though the group is paying for items the group needs- they aren't giving their portion of the wealth to the crafter for his own personal use. The cash spent is for specific items the group wants.

-S

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Guarding the mage for those days means time is equal. There's no problem with that.

He only makes one skill check a day. Having the cleric there to cast that is great. Time is equal.

Having the rogue there instead of out gathering information for their next job is okay. Time is equal.

Charging the party because you can't accurately reflect the $/day wage of an adventurer? Not equal.

==Aelryinth


TarkXT wrote:
dragonfire8974 wrote:
Dr Grecko wrote:

1) Discussing that before hand would certainly be the best option. In the italicized part: What if that scroll he created as a "I'd rather have these as scrolls" comes in handy and he needs to use it? Would he then be validated in charging the group for it?
-
2) I don't consider recouping losses as "stealing". Especially in the scenario I listed.

i think the Idea with the party first mentality is that you'd ask for people to contribut to a CLW wand, or scrolls of selectively useful spell
For wands? Yes. Not so much for scrolls as I generally use them as extra emergency spell slots. But I see how certain spells might call for some extra investment from the group.

like break enchantment, remove curse and the like. i'd even put in for a couple teleport scrolls


Aelryinth wrote:

Guarding the mage for those days means time is equal. There's no problem with that.

He only makes one skill check a day. Having the cleric there to cast that is great. Time is equal.

Having the rogue there instead of out gathering information for their next job is okay. Time is equal.

Charging the party because you can't accurately reflect the $/day wage of an adventurer? Not equal.

==Aelryinth

+1

although i wouldn't mind having all the people going out doing their own thing as a crafter, but some people just don't think that's fair


dragonfire8974 wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:

Guarding the mage for those days means time is equal. There's no problem with that.

He only makes one skill check a day. Having the cleric there to cast that is great. Time is equal.

Having the rogue there instead of out gathering information for their next job is okay. Time is equal.

Charging the party because you can't accurately reflect the $/day wage of an adventurer? Not equal.

==Aelryinth

+1

although i wouldn't mind having all the people going out doing their own thing as a crafter, but some people just don't think that's fair

I think the crafter has the right to tell the party they can do go their own thing while they are crafting. Its when the party forces the crafter to craft while they are out screwing around, that it becomes an issue.

"hey we're going down to the tavern to have a pint. You can join us when you finish that sword, slave, and not a moment before".

vs

"hey guys I'll be done with this in an hour.. why don't you go have a drink and I'll meet you there in abit? You don't have to sit in here standing guard- I'm safe enough."

Same ending (group goes to screw off while crafter is crafting) but very different party interaction.

-S


Good Lord are you guys still arguing about this? 780 post? I see the same people posting on this topic i was arguing with 2 days ago.

This topic only has 2 concrete answers.

1. People have 2 different opionions on this question.

2. Your not going to change someones opinion either way.

Cant we move on to something else and agree to disagree?

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Selgard wrote:


However, this exists with some caveats.

Your posts and those of Adamantine Dragon in the first 6 pages don't seem to respect any of your caveats.

They start with variants of "money grubbing/thief/profiteer" and then build on that.
You two start with the argument that the crafter is stealing from the party simply because the feat he take should be useful to the party, essentially you want a communal organization here everyone work for the group benefit only. "Everyone contributes with his abilities and everyone take based on his needs"

Small problem: more often than not it will not be balanced. You claim that the "poor non crafters" will be the one suffering from a small surcharge, but generally the "poor non crafters" are the one that say "Oh, outside of combat I can't do anything useful, so my character is laying about doing nothing, but you can do tons of stuff during downtime, go to work."
Then normally the same characters that have produced nothing are those that need more. "I need a better weapon and armor, my ST sucks, if I had more strength I would be doing more damage. You have all hose spell to buff your abilities when needed, my magic items are more important."

I doubt I would touch a crafting feat with a ten meter pole in one of your games.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Spellcrafting should be no more valuable then any other kind of crafting. There's no way an NPC crafter is worth 1000 gp/day. They'd all be fantastically rich, barring any normal kind of economics.

The only way the system would work in reality is if magic items hardly ever get bought or sold, and the NPC's have to use the profit to survive until the next 'big sale'. An NPC who was assured a steady job of making magic items each and every day is nothing more then another professional with skill ranks. The cost of making magic items would PLUMMET if everything that was made was bought continuously.

In reality, that +1 sword might sit around for six months after the smith makes it, waiting for someone with enough gold to come around and buy it. The smith has 1000 gp wrapped up, doing nothing, as long as its not sold, and still has all his expenses in the meantime. If it doesn't sell, gets stolen, or destroyed, he's out a LOT of money.

I imagine the expenses for 'magic shops' just against theft would be hugely expensive.

In short, you can't justify the crafter's time being worth any more then the rest of the party. I would simply turn to the DM and say, "Okay, while he's doing his crafting thing, the rest of us are going to adventure without him. How much money and xp do we make, so I can pay him?"

and the process will sort itself out thereby. The mage's time isn't worth any more then the fighter's, so they can spend time on one another and be cool about it.

==Aelryinth


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I really don't see an issue. If I'm fighter and the wizard will make me a sword at +10% over their cost then who am to complain. I mean I want +2 sword and the guy in the market is selling it for 8000 gp, the wizard says he can do it for 5000 gp. I'm going to go with wizard, I'm saving 3000 gp that way. I see no reason in role playing sense to get upset with that. I'm fighter and I don't know how it cost to enchant a sword, all I know is the wizard is doing it cheaper. It would be meta gaming to claim the wizard is ripping off by charging me 5000 gp when it's only costing him 4000 gp. As far as my character know maybe it's different for every wizard and the better you are the cheaper it is.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Selgard wrote:


However, this exists with some caveats.

Your posts and those of Adamantine Dragon in the first 6 pages don't seem to respect any of your caveats.

They start with variants of "money grubbing/thief/profiteer" and then build on that.
You two start with the argument that the crafter is stealing from the party simply because the feat he take should be useful to the party, essentially you want a communal organization here everyone work for the group benefit only. "Everyone contributes with his abilities and everyone take based on his needs"

Small problem: more often than not it will not be balanced. You claim that the "poor non crafters" will be the one suffering from a small surcharge, but generally the "poor non crafters" are the one that say "Oh, outside of combat I can't do anything useful, so my character is laying about doing nothing, but you can do tons of stuff during downtime, go to work."
Then normally the same characters that have produced nothing are those that need more. "I need a better weapon and armor, my ST sucks, if I had more strength I would be doing more damage. You have all hose spell to buff your abilities when needed, my magic items are more important."

I doubt I would touch a crafting feat with a ten meter pole in one of your games.

i'll post this again

please read the last few posts... they address the idea that a 10% surcharge is a small amount because that gives that crafter 50% more wealth than the other characters.

then the idea that the crafter can't do anything during his downtime and should be compensated is also false because the crafter can still pursue any other downtime activity while crafting even without a ring of sustenance or rushing.


dragonfire8974 wrote:
Dr Grecko wrote:

1) Discussing that before hand would certainly be the best option. In the italicized part: What if that scroll he created as a "I'd rather have these as scrolls" comes in handy and he needs to use it? Would he then be validated in charging the group for it?
-
2) I don't consider recouping losses as "stealing". Especially in the scenario I listed.

i think the Idea with the party first mentality is that you'd ask for people to contribut to a CLW wand, or scrolls of selectively useful spell

Not every group ends up playing "equal for all" style games.. If the group you play in calculates out what the entire horde is worth; Gives certain items to certain people; Sells the rest of the loot, and divides it up to make it even for the people who didn't get extra loot; Makes all consumables from party loot; All downtime is spent for the benifit of the party (Wealth By Levely speaking). Then, and only then would I consider crafting items for party memebers at cost.

-
I have yet to encounter a group that plays like this. Is this the way the "free crafting" crowd honestly plays? The mind numbingly tedious nature of keeping track of all that to ensure equality for all would make the game boring to me. But to each his own I guess.

So therein lies my position. We don't play like that, so it's perfectly reasonable to charge for item creation.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Selgard wrote:
dragonfire8974 wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:

Guarding the mage for those days means time is equal. There's no problem with that.

He only makes one skill check a day. Having the cleric there to cast that is great. Time is equal.

Having the rogue there instead of out gathering information for their next job is okay. Time is equal.

Charging the party because you can't accurately reflect the $/day wage of an adventurer? Not equal.

==Aelryinth

+1

although i wouldn't mind having all the people going out doing their own thing as a crafter, but some people just don't think that's fair

I think the crafter has the right to tell the party they can do go their own thing while they are crafting. Its when the party forces the crafter to craft while they are out screwing around, that it becomes an issue.

"hey we're going down to the tavern to have a pint. You can join us when you finish that sword, slave, and not a moment before".

vs

"hey guys I'll be done with this in an hour.. why don't you go have a drink and I'll meet you there in abit? You don't have to sit in here standing guard- I'm safe enough."

Same ending (group goes to screw off while crafter is crafting) but very different party interaction.

-S

I agree with this in principle. What you get into is group harmonics.

If, for instance, the wizard just makes stuff for himself with his feat so as to avoid the slavery/overcharge argument, basically that means that everyone in the party should pick up the same set of skills so that they all double their gold.

Thus, you end up with 4 characters in the party who can all make their own stuff, with double gold...which is exactly the same thing that happens if just ONE character has the feat and does the crafting, except now the rest of the party has fewer combat feats, skill points, etc.

The crafter is always going to make stuff for himself first. He blew the feat, he gets first benefit.

But not making stuff for the rest of the party is cutting off the hand to spite the face. It actually makes the whole party weaker then it could be otherwise. Thus, a crafter in a group will make stuff for the rest of the party when he has time and inclination to do so. Being forced to do so at expense of his own interests? Not going to happen.

==Aelryinth


voska66 wrote:
I really don't see an issue. If I'm fighter and the wizard will make me a sword at +10% over their cost then who am to complain. I mean I want +2 sword and the guy in the market is selling it for 8000 gp, the wizard says he can do it for 5000 gp. I'm going to go with wizard, I'm saving 3000 gp that way. I see no reason in role playing sense to get upset with that. I'm fighter and I don't know how it cost to enchant a sword, all I know is the wizard is doing it cheaper. It would be meta gaming to claim the wizard is ripping off by charging me 5000 gp when it's only costing him 4000 gp. As far as my character know maybe it's different for every wizard and the better you are the cheaper it is.

see my above post, and then look at this page or the last one, you will see why it is that way instead of making me post the math again


Diego Rossi wrote:
Selgard wrote:


However, this exists with some caveats.

Your posts and those of Adamantine Dragon in the first 6 pages don't seem to respect any of your caveats.

They start with variants of "money grubbing/thief/profiteer" and then build on that.
You two start with the argument that the crafter is stealing from the party simply because the feat he take should be useful to the party, essentially you want a communal organization here everyone work for the group benefit only. "Everyone contributes with his abilities and everyone take based on his needs"

Small problem: more often than not it will not be balanced. You claim that the "poor non crafters" will be the one suffering from a small surcharge, but generally the "poor non crafters" are the one that say "Oh, outside of combat I can't do anything useful, so my character is laying about doing nothing, but you can do tons of stuff during downtime, go to work."
Then normally the same characters that have produced nothing are those that need more. "I need a better weapon and armor, my ST sucks, if I had more strength I would be doing more damage. You have all hose spell to buff your abilities when needed, my magic items are more important."

I doubt I would touch a crafting feat with a ten meter pole in one of your games.

If no one but your crafters can do anything useful outside combat- then That is the problem your group has, not whatever the crafters are doing.

We have many many non-crafters in our group who contribute meaningfully outside combat regularly. That may mean being the diplomancer (who has no crafting feats, but is a spell caster), that may mean going with him (since two people are better than one if something bad happens). It may mean hanging out with the crafter to help him in case something bad happens (which is just as legitimate thign to do as anything else).
Going to talk to contacts, selling loot, checking the library for information.

If your group has the crafter, who is also the only person who can do something out of combat, then your group needs to fix -that-.

I wouldn't want to be in a group where the crafter did 100% of the outside-combat work. Luckily, I haven't had it come up. Even the 3 int/cha fighter (not that we have one, but for example) can be the packmule, carting the gear to the shop for the rogue to sell while the crafter is busy or going with the wizard (or witch or bard or whoevre) to the library while he has a nose in a book to make sure he doesn't get snuck up on.

Go back and read through the posts. What I've been saying does reflect that, as more detail came out and more folks were posting what was going on in their groups. Some folks have even changed sides once it became clear that most of the "no stealing from the group" folks have made it clear that it was assuming a situation where everyone was contributing to the group and no one was an "in the basement crafting slave while everyone is at the tavern having an ale". I've said this more than once. This is the second or third time I've said it on this page. (unless the page turns while I'm typing, anyway).

The situation has evolved from "crafters never get more than their share of the loot" to "if everyone is acting as a group for the group and not treating the crafter as a slave, then the crafter doesn't get to steal from a group".

And even if the group Was a bunch of jerks treating the crafter that way- the crafter should just leave. Becoming a jerk to combat a jerk just makes you both a jerk. The better option is to just find a group who aren't a bunch of jerks.

-S


Dr Grecko wrote:
dragonfire8974 wrote:
Dr Grecko wrote:

1) Discussing that before hand would certainly be the best option. In the italicized part: What if that scroll he created as a "I'd rather have these as scrolls" comes in handy and he needs to use it? Would he then be validated in charging the group for it?
-
2) I don't consider recouping losses as "stealing". Especially in the scenario I listed.

i think the Idea with the party first mentality is that you'd ask for people to contribut to a CLW wand, or scrolls of selectively useful spell

Not every group ends up playing "equal for all" style games.. If the group you play in calculates out what the entire horde is worth; Gives certain items to certain people; Sells the rest of the loot, and divides it up to make it even for the people who didn't get extra loot; Makes all consumables from party loot; All downtime is spent for the benifit of the party (Wealth By Levely speaking). Then, and only then would I consider crafting items for party memebers at cost.

-
I have yet to encounter a group that plays like this. Is this the way the "free crafting" crowd honestly plays? The mind numbingly tedious nature of keeping track of all that to ensure equality for all would make the game boring to me. But to each his own I guess.

So therein lies my position. We don't play like that, so it's perfectly reasonable to charge for item creation.

i'm sorry, i don't mean to imply that how you play is wrong, but i'm just trying to address the concerns that 10% is a small amount and that the crafter can't do anything else in his downtime


So has anyone started making Objectivist "Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?" jokes yet? Because every time I see a poster insisting on calling the parties involved in this hypothetical situation robbers, Objectivist "looter" rhetoric is all I can think of.

I remember I saw a Khmer Rouge comparison while skimming the thread, that was pretty classy.


- One problem with crafting as is, is in my mind that the more powerful characters (wizards/casters) are handed more power, if they charge the other character it makes that power disparity even bigger.

- Another problem is the gain in power for the party compared to other feats, a party with crafters working to enhance that party will end up considerably more powerful than a party without.

The experience cost in 3rd edition at least kept the caster from going overboard and less likely to share his/her creations, essentialy they were selling some exp for gold/treasure of their choice, it can not really be justified as a single feat option if the caster uses it just for himself let alone the entire party.

Poor balance design, in most campaigns either GM or players will limit it's use in some way, but the base design is far from elegant.


Aelryinth wrote:
But not making stuff for the rest of the party is cutting off the hand to spite the face. It actually makes the whole party weaker then it could be otherwise. Thus, a crafter in a group will make stuff for the rest of the party when he has time and inclination to do so. Being forced to do so at expense of his own interests? Not going to happen.

I completely agree.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

The problem isn't that the crafter can't do anything else in his downtime. IT's that you are paying the crafter 100 gp a day for his free time.

Now, how is the rest of the party going to make 100 gp/day in their free time?

You can make 3d6 gp as a highly skilled professional using Skills.
You can also craft magic items.
Or you can go adventure.

That's it.

the wizard is profiting at the expense of the party unless the rest of the party can get a similar benefit. That's all there is to it.

So, your question should be to the GM, "Okay, I'll pay the wizard his 100 gp/day. Mr. DM, what can I go kill to get gold and xp to pay him with, while he's crafting?"

And the situation then balances out. The wizard misses out on xp, but gets his money.

===Aelryinth


Benly wrote:

So has anyone started making Objectivist "Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?" jokes yet? Because every time I see a poster insisting on calling the parties involved in this hypothetical situation robbers, Objectivist "looter" rhetoric is all I can think of.

I remember I saw a Khmer Rouge comparison while skimming the thread, that was pretty classy.

the idea about that is that he's going to get more money out of it because his companions are more powerful. and then they can adventure and make more money

but even then, no one objects 1% overcharge as an RP thing because it doesn't lead to a large power/wealth disparity in the party

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

a 1% overcharge is 10 gp/day, which is what you'd pay a professional craftsman of great skill and rarity for his time.

That IS a fair price. All of the other characters should be able to go out and make that amount in their downtime, too.

==+Aelryinth

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Selgard wrote:
Unless I missed something in it (which is certainly possible) your scenario is that the crafter decides the group needs something and then uses the 10% recoup to pay himself back for what he thinks the group needs.

This is one of your recurrent ideas apparently. "Somehow" the crafter force the group or the other party member to buy what he craft.

In my experience a crafter normally has a list of request he can't complete unless there is a very long downtime.
If he has made something because he wanted to make it there is no reason for the other members to pay him or buy the item. If, on the other hand, the barbarian his badgering him for a better sword I don't see why he should make it for free.

Sure, if he is crafting "on the road" what the party will use in the next adventure a surcharge isn't needed or welcome, but that is no the situation in he OP or most groups. When crafting on the road the other party members are (hopefully) all doing something useful while the crafter enchant, so it is a equal trade.
If during downtime one is working and the other partying that work should be rewarded.

Your argument "all are doing something useful, it can be as simple as being a pack mule" work when they are on the road or they have a small break between scenarios, not if there a long downtime. Maybe the party face will be around making contacts contacts that will be useful for all the group later, but mr. pack mule? The rogue going around picking pockets?

Not all adventuring groups play only AP that will end in 6 months of character time. There are groups that rest for the winter, have short adventures not necessarily linked between them and plenty of peaceful downtime.

I don't see any real improvement in your position from the first 6 pages.


Dr Grecko wrote:
dragonfire8974 wrote:
Dr Grecko wrote:

1) Discussing that before hand would certainly be the best option. In the italicized part: What if that scroll he created as a "I'd rather have these as scrolls" comes in handy and he needs to use it? Would he then be validated in charging the group for it?
-
2) I don't consider recouping losses as "stealing". Especially in the scenario I listed.

i think the Idea with the party first mentality is that you'd ask for people to contribut to a CLW wand, or scrolls of selectively useful spell

Not every group ends up playing "equal for all" style games.. If the group you play in calculates out what the entire horde is worth; Gives certain items to certain people; Sells the rest of the loot, and divides it up to make it even for the people who didn't get extra loot; Makes all consumables from party loot; All downtime is spent for the benifit of the party (Wealth By Levely speaking). Then, and only then would I consider crafting items for party memebers at cost.

-
I have yet to encounter a group that plays like this. Is this the way the "free crafting" crowd honestly plays? The mind numbingly tedious nature of keeping track of all that to ensure equality for all would make the game boring to me. But to each his own I guess.

So therein lies my position. We don't play like that, so it's perfectly reasonable to charge for item creation.

We don't calculate the wealth of each object and then use that to distribute gold so that everyone gets the same "WBL" chunk out of every thing we loot.

If someone needs something, they get it. When everything is sold and divided up, everyone gets a share. Sometimes the fighter gets a new toy, sometimes the cleric, sometimes the wizard, etc. It all rolls around in the end. Most of what we have is still the basic Xmas tree items with some variation. (my guy has 3 mm rods instead of some of the Xmas tree stuff- but he bought 'em all, none were found/crafted).
Most of hte stuff we find gets turned straight into gold in town. Very little of what we find is used- and most of that we use are unique items. fancy robe, weird goggles, or whatever. (well there was that one keen rapier.. the DM still regrets having that in the loot table)

Alot of people seem very very intent, at least here on the boards, with their specific WBL rather than the progress and success of the group. We just.. don't operate that way. I have no idea what the relative WBL is of the group to me, or me to any other character. I also don't particularly care. I know that if something drops and I'm the one who needs it most, then I'm going to get it. I know that when we sell loot I get my 1/7th of it, and I'm good with that too. Do I care if the fighter is 3000 ahead of me? Is the cleric butt hurt if I'm 2000 ahead of him? I guess if we took an hour out of the next game to add it all up and started "nanny nanny boo boo I have more cash than you" crap or something it'd get annoying.. but I see no need for that.
Everyone contributes. Everyone gets paid. No reason to nickel and dime each other. We're a group. We're working as a group, fighting as a group, resting as a group.

-S


Diego Rossi wrote:
Selgard wrote:
Unless I missed something in it (which is certainly possible) your scenario is that the crafter decides the group needs something and then uses the 10% recoup to pay himself back for what he thinks the group needs.

This is one of your recurrent ideas apparently. "Somehow" the crafter force the group or the other party member to buy what he craft.

In my experience a crafter normally has a list of request he can't complete unless there is a very long downtime.
If he has made something because he wanted to make it there is no reason for the other members to pay him or buy the item. If, on the other hand, the barbarian his badgering him for a better sword I don't see why he should make it for free.

Sure, if he is crafting "on the road" what the party will use in the next adventure a surcharge isn't needed or welcome, but that is no the situation in he OP or most groups. When crafting on the road the other party members are (hopefully) all doing something useful while the crafter enchant, so it is a equal trade.
If during downtime one is working and the other partying that work should be rewarded.

I don't see any real improvement in your position from the first 6 pages.

there's been a lot of developement in the last 9 pages.

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