If my options are pay 2000gp for a +1 weapon from an NPC
or
Pay 1100gp to the party crafter for the same item.I'll pay the 1100 gp everytime, and if the crafter is considered to be "stealing" from me, he can "steal" from me the whole campaign.
This is the way I see it. The players in the op are being just as selfish as they claim the crafted is. They are getting magic items at a discounted rate and still aren't happy. If i was playing in that game as the crafter, I would just stop making items for the group and quietly craft items for myself in the downtime between sessions. Crafters give up a lot taking those feats, why should there not be a return on it?
This may have been said already, but I really dont feel like reading 500+ posts to get caught up
Well the general reasoning is.
1. Because he is not chargin himself that rate therefore he's gaining more money then his fellow pc's. This in and of itself is nto a problem except it's coming out of those pc's.
2. Four or five feats is a huge investment. One really isn't for what you gain. If you divide the labor and spread the work you'll find that charging is relatively pointless as everyone is putting in their contribution.
No one seems to protest this issue, though. It's not 'stealing from friends' when Clyde Carpenter charges his neighbor Frank Farmer twice what it cost him to make that plow. Why, then, is it 'stealing from friends' when Wally Wizard charges extra to Rudy Rogue for that +1 dagger?
Because Clyde Carpenter and Frank Farmer are not fighting for their lives each and every day utilizing the tools they get from one another.
However Rudy Rogue is taking that +1 dagger with him to the dungeon each adn every day with Wally Wizard and slitting the throats of sleeping kobolds who might otherwise put arrows in Wally Wizard. It's an investment in Wally Wizards survival. Wally Wizard does not rely on the money he's charging the rogue for his livelihood he's relying on Rudy Rogue to be doing his job better and he might not do his job as well if he can't get said dagger.
These "real life" analogies fail to take a lot of this into account. The wizard is not a magic shop, he is not selling to joe shmoe on the street with dreams of adventuring. He's selling to the guy who bleeds, fights, and demeans himself each and everyday to ensure that the wizard gets his fair share of twenty thousand some odd gold.
Well, this is an interesting turn. So now the crafter gets to steal from the party because he's not doing it "in combat"? Combat feats are freebies, fighters and such are expected to use them for free but because crafters are helping the party outside combat then they get to rob the party for the privilege?
What kind of crap reasoning is that?
These aren't 4-6 people who come together in combat and then separate until the next combat. Is that what happens in your games?
In the games I've been in- the group is a team. A cohesive group. A party. We're friends. We're working towards "the goal" of the campaign whether we're slaying ogres or sitting in the tavern planning what to do next.
If the crafter (wizard cleric or whoever) is spending time to craft, he's doing so for the group. Not himself. Not the fighter. But for the group.
Now sure, he (should) be making stuff for himself first- it is his feat afterall- but to say he gets to steal from the party for using a feat on their behalf but the fighter doesn't because he uses his in combat is laughable. Absolutely laughable.
"sorry Mr. Fighter I know you saved my arse back there, but sorry mr Cleric I know you healed me from -3 to full three times in the Dungeon of Doom we just got out of but.. combat is over now. that stuff is in the past. You'll pay the extra 3500 gold or I'm gonna sit here with my thumb up my butt instead of contributing meaningfully to the group."
How is this possibly even remotely acceptable? Simple: It isn't.
The group is a whole, it works as one to advance the goals of the group. IF you are a member of that group, then you should be working to advance the goals too. The diplomancer doesn't get to charge for using diplomancy "out of combat". The cleric doesn't get to charge for that remove curse he cast on you after combat was over, the next day after he memorized it. You are a T E A M. You guys need to seriously learn what that means.
All you've done is to fabricate a difference between the group being "in combat" and not "in combat' so as to create a reason why you can rip off the party- and it just doesn't fly. Its not even getting off the ground.
Either you are working with the team or you are stealing from it.
And lets also keep in mind we're talking about a PC fronting the costs for the crafting here. All the crafter is taking is abit of time when he'd be doing something else for the group, to do this. Meanwhile the *rest* of the group are also doing things to further the group.
If your group is expecting the crafter to work hard while they are screwing off, then you have far greater issues than him stealing from the party in the process.
You are a group. Act like a group. Behave like a group. The members of the group should work together to further the aims and goals of the group. Unless you really are playing D&D Monopoly, robbing your fellow players shouldn't even be factorng into the equation.
-S
Had some time last night to mull over the scenarios we discussed and I can certainly see why the party may think it is exploitive to charge for crafting. The game mechanics prevent crafting for profit on the open market, and a party member would certainly consider himself to be on the open market.
However, it is also exploitive of the party to expect a crafter to craft free of charge. In my scenario, my charecter concept makes my wizard both a merchant and a scribe. Time spent crafting can take away from time spent earning money through his profession during our downtimes.
Now the problem with that analysis is that you only make half your skill check in gold per week performing these tasks, which by comparison, a 10% (or even 5% in my case) is well beyond adequate compensation for thier time.
I'm thinking to make it more fair, that a 1% charge would be more than adequate compensation for time spent.. That would roughly be tripple what I would make (depending on rolls) for my professions.
Selgard, I want you to go back and find my last post. You seem strongly emotional about this, I'm curious as to what you'd have to say to it.
Also, remember that in combat, while the fighter is saving the wizard's arse and the cleric is healing him from -3 to full three times, the wizard is doing just as much for the others, throwing out his Black Tentacles and summoning monsters to benefit the party as well. It's not entirely one sided, the way you make it seem.
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Selgard I think that there is a general disagreement on what "theft" is.
In common usage, theft is the taking of another person's property without that person's permission or consent with the intent to deprive the rightful owner of it.
The rightful owner of some gold is the player who has it. He voluntary gives that gold to somebody in exchange for an item. I see no theft.
I do see theft when you take somebodies labor without paying for it when they don't wish to donate that labor.
The argument on theft doesn't get any simpler than that.
What you are saying is that the group owns all labor performed by all members. Even if they don't wish to give that labor.
You are assuming all groups have effectively a communist charter, where all of the fruits of labor belongs to the group, and there is no property. This is NOT how all groups work.
Then you trot out the straw-man about making every action in combat being a chargeable thing. Guess what, most groups don't play a la carte either.
A balance between this is probably what most people play. Actions in combat count towards party share. Once you have your share you are free to do anything with it. If you want to burn your gold buying glamoured armor, go for it. If you want to buy a stronghold that the party can chill in, go for it. Heck, if its cool enough and the party wishes to benefit from it, they might even chip in.
I think we need to ask an additional question; how do you divide loot? I believe this directly relates to whether or not X group thinks it is acceptable to charge Party members for magic item creation.
So - Selgard, et al, how do you think magical equipment and other kinds of gear should be divvied?
Sigh. I am going to ban crafting for PCs.
PC crafting is stupid!
Why would you even take a crafting feat after first level if you are an adventurer? When do you have time to learn how?
There is no benefit to a PC crafter. They're just wasting feat slots they could use for more combat-oriented purposes.
Why? Because of this sense of entitlement attitude. Once it stopped costing xp, PCs came to expect items and for their comrades to make them for them, even when it makes no sense to do so.
As a PC caster, I've never taken a craft feat. As a GM why would I bother adjucating downtime during a senario so Frank Fighter can get a discounted weapon rather than use his WBL to purchase it, as the WBL charts are designed for?
Frankly, as a GM, if I had an issue where one or more PCs drove out or harrassed another PC over crafting, I'd have that lovely sense of entitlement spread. The next town the group arrived in would have a large burnt ruin where the magic shop used to be as the customers rose in rioting and (much like some modern protestors) burnt the profiteer's shop to the ground, possibly with him still in it.
In Way of the Wicked my evil aligned alchemist seems to be the only character capable of providing healing to the party through his usage of Brew Potion. Since we're required by contract to share loot equally, we do so. I then charge 75% market price for the sale of potions, and use the 12ish gold per 'sale' for level one potions to further my research, adding additional formulae to my book. In turn that 'helps' the party in combat by giving us additional means to solve problems. I guess the party feels this deal is a fair one, their characters don't know the price it costs to craft, but they do know that I'm cutting them a deal compared to the market value. Maybe our group is just a bit more easy going with loot though. Despite what is essentially 'ripping' off the party, no complaints have been levied against me. The market I have for them would probably run dry if the player's had chosen things like a healing capable class though I'm sure. It is interesting to think about. This is a very interesting thread, very passionate on both sides.
Selgard, I want you to go back and find my last post. You seem strongly emotional about this, I'm curious as to what you'd have to say to it.
Also, remember that in combat, while the fighter is saving the wizard's arse and the cleric is healing him from -3 to full three times, the wizard is doing just as much for the others, throwing out his Black Tentacles and summoning monsters to benefit the party as well. It's not entirely one sided, the way you make it seem.
I'm not in the slightest bit emotionally invested, to be honest.
I mean this will sound rude- but i really don't *care* what folks on the boards think. I mean- lets all be honest. You are about as likely to change your group due to what I say as I am to change mine based on what you say. And why should we? If you are having fun at home, thats far mroe important than what some twit (me) says on the boards.I do however enjoy a good discussion- like this one. I'm having fun, and enjoying it. I hope the other posters are as well. Good solid discussions like this help vent the issue so everyone can see that there are clearly two sides to the same coin.
When a player comes and searches this topic he'll find many good solid reasons on both sides of the fence for and against it. They can read through and make their own decision based on what they find.
As for Theft: You can steal from someone with their permission- believe it or not.
If you go to a mechanic to get your car fixed and he tells you the parts cost 100 and they really cost 90 then he just stole 10 bucks from you.
If the item costs 100 to make and the crafter charges you 110 he's stealing 10 bucks from you. The fact that it item costs you 200 from some other person is actually irrelevant. It could be worth two bazillion more, but he's still stealing your money from you and putting it into his pocket. Its theft, plain and simple.
I'm categorizing it as theft because the crafter who's pinching 10% is stealing from his party mates.
The crafter- whatever class- is also contributing in combat. I hope. (he better be!).
So fighter took power attack. useful in battle? no doubt.
Wizard took a feat. Maximize Spell. Useful in combat? No doubt.
Crafter takes a feat: craft wondrous item. Now he gets to pinch 10%?
Absolutely not.
The answer of "well they are benefiting more than him" just isn't true.
*they are a team*. Why are they competing? They shouldn't be. They are a group. Dude chose one feat over another and suddenly that lets him swipe money from the group?
And no one who isn't a crafter gets to do it? How is this patently fair?
It just isn't.
The crafter is contributing to combat just like everyone else. he also took a feat that lets him *continue to contribute* outside combat.
Or are we going to start letting others charge for their feat just because its outside combat? The cleric who rests a night to memorize a remove curse, disease, or blindness- can they charge for it? its not in combat. What abouut the diplomancer? can he make use of his feats and skills for the group and charge them for that?
They are all contributing to the group. No one gets to charge the group for that. Its part of being in the same group.
Now as has been said before- if the group is off partying (just having fun, not at some group function where they are trying to do something, like get in good with the Mayor or whateveR) but actually just screwing off, then the crafter should be too. If the group is forcing him to stay home and work while they are off screwing around then that is an issue that needs to be dealt with.
But if Crafter Cindy is crafting while Diplomancer Dan is out trying to get more for the loot than normal while Fighter Fred is escorting DD around town with the goods and Roddy Rogue is down at the tavern gathering intel for whhich way the bad guy went and Windy the Wizard is in the library researching ways to defeat the Glabrezu that kicked the party's ass in the last dungeon- why is CC getting to charge for helping the group but the others aren't?
No one is charging because they are *all* working towards the common goal of increasing the effectiveness and ability of the party.
When you start trying to slice it off into "well I'm better than you because I can make this and you can't so I get to swipe your money" then you stop being a team. You stop being a party.
If all the crafter has time for (due to no down time or whatever) is to make the things he himself needs, then thats what he should do. I'm simply advocating that in theory at least, he'll reach a point where he has time to spare and no more money left to craft with (or he's saving up for something expensive or whatever) and if he should choose to spend that time crafting for the group it doesn't entitle him to steal their money in the process. No more than the fighter can charge for taking a turn at watch or the bard can for cooking supper or the rogue for going out and getting spare wood, or for any of the other million things *the group* does *as a group* on a daily basis to further and promote the success of the group.
Loaba:
I think every group needs their own method for it.
The way the past several groups have done it that I've been in, is as follows:
We Id the item.
The group discusses the item and determines who its best for. (melee, casters, etc). its uusally obvious (pearl of power for fighter? probably not) but not always (cloak of resistance?)
Folks who want it, chime in with what they currently have. The folks in the running for it discuss it. Often times, one or more folks decline to take it either because the upgrade is marginal or because someone else needs it more.
If two folks really want it- they roll for it. Whoever lost, gets the next one. Often times, whoever wins it will have a hand-me-down they give to someone else.
For example- our RotL group got a great item that either me or the wizard could use- but it was far far better for him than me. Even though it was my turn for loot- i gave it to him. He in turn gave me what he had been using. It was a great upgrade for me. We both got awesome items. The next time an awesome item comes that he and i can use, I'll probably get it. Unless its something thats far better for him than me- then I'll pass it to him.
I could have taken the item. It was my turn. Why not? because I'm interested in the group progressing, not myself. Him being stronger *makes me stronger*. Because he's fighting on my side.
I was in a group once where a ring of regeneration was found. the group discussed it, and the melee guy without a shield received it- because he'd get hit more than the guy with the shield. He decided he'd rather sell the ring and get some new whatever, and the group had a fit. It ended up that guy leaving the group over it, because if it was going to be sold then the group should get the money not the one character. Not "Selgard made him leave" but "the group didn't like that he did that, and the end result was that he left rather than bow to the will of the group".
The group is for the group. It works for the gruop. It furthers the aims of the group. A greedy person in the group, doesn't work. Not in the groups i've been in. A crafter stealing 10% off the top is stealing from the group. He's not a team player. We wouldn't put up with it.
Your group(s) are apparently different. And thats awesome. I'm very glad we aren't sitting at each others tables though. :)
-S
One other scenario I didn't know existed until just a few minutes ago involves the Hedge Magician Trait.
Would you still consider it exploitation to charge the normal half retail when the crafter can craft at 5% below cost?
As for Theft: You can steal from someone with their permission- believe it or not.
If you go to a mechanic to get your car fixed and he tells you the parts cost 100 and they really cost 90 then he just stole 10 bucks from you.
So the average mechanic? Mostly they pretend they time cost the other 10 bucks.
If the item costs 100 to make and the crafter charges you 110 he's stealing 10 bucks from you. The fact that it item costs you 200 from some other person is actually irrelevant. It could be worth two bazillion more, but he's still stealing your money from you and putting it into his pocket. Its theft, plain and simple.
So capitalism is theft?
I think that there has actually been some progress in the discussion.
The fee crafters believe that their out of combat down time should be compensated for when they craft for others. If everyone is doing things to aid the group during the downtime or doing things for the crafter, then most agree that a fee is not appropriate as they have been compensated for.
The free crafters seem to have agreed that there is a problem with the group if the crafter is the only group member doing things for the group during down time, but still do not believe that any fee should be paid.
The positions seem to be closer than earlier in the discussion.
There are still individual group ways of operating that will have an impact (like how each group divides the loot).
I would ask that the free crafters tone down their language a bit as the insulting language (profiteer, jerk, swiping crew, lots of talk of killing the crafter or causing them bodily harm) does not really help the discussion, quite the opposite really.
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The arguments seem to boil down to "crafter should get paid for time and effort" and "crafter should not profit from party members above what s/he can get on the open market." Both of those positions, it seems to me, are perfectly reasonable.
There are two different arguments, here. One is in-game and the other is meta-game. In the game world, the fighter is, in fact, paying half as much for a sword crafted by his buddy the wizard, as opposed to going to a shop. A 40% discount is a 40% discount, separate from the "cost to craft" issue. If my fighter has a choice between "pay 2000" and "pay 1100," one of those options leaves more money in my pocket. From a strictly in-world economic standpoint, this makes sense.
But there is a meta-game issue of "stealing," in that I have now paid 100gp of my wealth-by-level to another party member, whose WBL has gone up while mine went down. Now, maybe the DM will balance that out, and maybe the DM will balance the encounters to match my party's increased magical load, but either way that's meta-game, not in-world. Meta-game, I expect my DM to balance this out. If I choose to pay the crafter, I expect my DM to find a way to shift the loot in my direction a little, and for the crafter to be okay with that.
In-world, however, it's all about alignment. I assume that I've talked to the players and the GM before taking the feat to say, "my character is likely to charge you for this, because it's in character not to give freebies, but I'll take less from the loot when I do." I have had this conversation with other players' rogues, as well: "I'm okay with you stealing a bit from the corpses before we get to them, as long as the shopkeepers charge you a little more for magic items on the back end." It all balances out, if you talk to your players and GM. (No, I didn't like the rogue "stealing," but I didn't ask to throw the player out. I talked to him and to the GM. This is what we do.)
Alignment-wise:
If I'm a LG crafter, I make items at cost, for everyone in the party. If I'm an LG non-crafter I always pay the crafter more than the cost-to-create, because it is the right thing to do and the lawful thing to do. If they won't take the money, I take care of their expenses (including magic items, like scrolls and potions, that they need but can't create because they are working on my item).
If I'm a LN crafter, I expect to be paid exactly the cost to create, plus whatever local guild dues and taxes I have to pay in order to be in compliance with local ordinances. If I'm a LN non-crafter, I find out the cost to create and pay it, then might haggle with the crafter for tips or taxes. If I do not pay additional above base cost, I must not be paying taxes and wouldn't be in compliance with the law or my alignment.
If I'm a LE crafter, I offer my services to two characters and take the highest bid. If I'm a LE non-crafter, I make sure that I live in a place that allows slavery and chain my "friend" the wizard in the basement. Or I charge him every time I use Power Attack to save him, so that he is always indentured to me and has to craft items for free. If he doesn't want to pay, I let him die and have him raised as a crafting-zombie.
If I'm a NG crafter, I make items at cost for most characters, depending on how they interact with me. Other characters, like the rogue who steals from the party, have to pay. If I'm a NG non-crafter, I pay slightly above market value, but help with the work.
If I'm a TN crafter, I make items for myself first, every time. If I have time, I make things for other people at cost, unless I need money. They we haggle. If I'm a TN non-crafter, I haggle like hell for every gold piece and if I can pay less than cost-to-create, I will.
If I'm a NE crafter, I always charge market value +50%: more than I'll get at a shop but not so much more that the other character goes elsewhere with his gold. If the character doesn't want to pay, they don't have to ask me to craft things for them. If I'm a NE non-crafter, I'll probably just steal other characters' stuff, anyway.
If I'm a CG crafter, I will probably have a sliding scale based on the amount of magic a character has. The fighter with seven magic items will have to pay more than the monk with two, because the fighter has been getting more of the loot and can afford it. If I'm a CG non-crafter, I'll haggle on the price but do favors for the crafter while s/he's working.
If I'm a CN crafter, I'll charge more based on which characters have been nice to me, or some other, fairly arbitrary, criteria. My criteria will never be consistent. If a character has been really nice to me, I might even charge them less than cost-to-create, and make up the difference by charging a less-nice character more. If I'm a CN non-crafter, I will pay extra about half the time, usually in livestock. ("I will pay you 1000 gp and seven sheep for the +1 armor. Why don't you want them, these are prize sheep and I love them like they were my own children!")
If I'm a CE crafter, unless the other character pays almost full market value they'll end up with a cursed item. If I'm a CE non-crafter, I'll kill the crafter when s/he is done and take the item (and whatever else is on that character).
I should note that the evil courses of action are all hypothetical, as I never play evil characters (not that it's bad-wrong-fun, I just don't enjoy it).
Tl;DR: For characters living In the game world, justifications for charging for crafting make sense. Meta-game, they do not. Either way, it seems as though it should boil down to 1) your group's temperament and 2) your character's alignment.
Final thought: If someone in your group wants to do it and you don't like it, don't ask them to craft for you and pretend that they took a pointless feat (like Death or Glory). You lose nothing and they get to play their character in a way that is fun for them. Yes, that means that you will pay full price for items and they will pay half, but it also means that you can go run a kingdom, or bed wenches, or train a dragon while they are slaving away in their workshop. If you feel slighted because you are using Power Attack to save them and they're not using Craft to help you, then you can always take a feat that doesn't benefit them in any way (like Skill Focus: Craft Russian Nesting Dolls). (Of course, then you could make magical nesting dolls to use as thrown weapons. They have fear effects, because those things are freaky.)
That said, if you're a crafter and your group thinks that charging them is bad-wrong-fun, then be respectful of that. Don't take the feat. Or, if you want to be petty, swap it out for Power Attack (if you're a wizard), a teamwork feat no one else has, or Fleet (if you wear armor).
Selgard, I didn't mean to say that your passion is unnecessary, or really anything to offend you. I know you're coming at this as more of a friendly debate than trying to force others to adopt your way of thinking, and that's fine - I'm the same, tbh.
However, I'm not sure you found my post, but forget it. I'll just reiterate the point I really want you to hit on.
A NPC can craft X item, paying 1000 gold in costs, then sell it on the open market for 2000 gold, resulting in 1000 gold of profit. A PC can craft the same item, paying 1000 gold in costs, then sell it on the open market for 1000 gold, resulting in no profit. This makes little sense, but it's an important rule to prevent crafting feats from equating to infinite wealth.
I see this rule for what it is: silly but necessary.
However, to ask a party crafter to create items and only charge the creation cost is not looking at this rule in its entirety. It's only looking at the fact that the PC can only sell at half cost. It doesn't consider the rule from the angle of why it does what it does, only what it does.
In-game, there is no justification for a character selling his created items for full market price, just because he belongs to a metagame group of PC instead of NPC. The best argument probably entails having a shop setup versus just traveling, but the rules don't even allow for setting up a shop to begin to gain full market price. As such, there is just as much justification (read: none) to ask a player to sell his created items for only the costs he incurs, because it should otherwise be understood he could make double profit on it (though, he can't, obviously, but the characters themselves have no concept of this, since they don't know the difference between a PC and a NPC). The PCs, really, should be excited they can get something for 60% of the cost.
Such as: The computer I game on is pretty ballin'. It was custom built by a friend, who also games with me. It cost me $800. If I had purchased the same machine from a store, I would be looking at $1700. The parts for the computer only cost $700-$750. I was more than happy with this, which should be obvious. Now, because he plays games with me, we both do better, because I have a better machine and I can do more in our games. The fact he charged a few bucks for labor and time means absolutely nothing to me - I'd have paid him for it anyway. He could have gone and sold that machine for $1700, but instead he was willing to sell it to me for just over half the cost. I was thankful.
And you keep talking about having a group with perfect cohesion, but some groups I've played in, the party is together either because of an external reason (which doesn't imply that they want to work together - currently, my paladin of Sarenrae has had a multitude of issues with the CN rogue) or because they see adventuring as a plausible form of livelihood and found a group of people who can hold their own in battle - but that still doesn't mean that they feel like they have to provide items at zero cost, because they are still an individual.
What you're talking about, in terms of party workings, is almost groupthink. And groupthink is bad.
Crafting inherently costs money. Casting spells (non expensive ones like heal) and swinging swords don't cost you money per cast or swing, respectively. Comparing crafting in a quid pro quo fashion to spell casting or fighting in combat fails outright due to this. A crafter should be reimbursed at minimum the cost of the materials. Anything over that while being below the market price is fair game and debatable among the party. Anything less is stealing from the crafter.
1) All my posts are from the standpoint that whoever is asking for the item is paying the cost of that to the crafter for it to be made.
Crafter gets gold from Item Wanter. Turns gold into item.
The crafter has one way on earth to profit off of crafting. This method is to steal the gold from his comrades. Thats really it. Is it stupid? Yup. But its why its *stealing*.
It is stealing because if he takes that item and puts it on "the market" he gets X. Thats it. its all he can get, by RAW. So what does he do? he instead goes to sell it to his buddies. His pals. his..err.. friends? Not really.
I had a friend all through college who built computers for a living. I paid him well for the service and got alot of use for him over the years. He even did alot of work for me after I graduated and setup an office. A good guy, knew his stuff. I paid him for his work.
Know what he didn't do? he didn't charge me 20% more, 30% more, or 40% more of what he could have sold it for to someone else.
Its true that the D&D economy is wonky because an NPC can literally make twice what the PC can. But thems the rules.
The other problem, as has been repeatedly stated, is that:
The crafter chose to take the feat instead of some other feat. He made this choice and decision. Any other feat he would have taken, presumably, would have benefitted the group. Maximize, empower, whatever. Heck weapon focus is useful for some builds. (clerics 3/4 bab?). He doesn't get to stick his fingers into the pockets of the rest of the group.. Why? Well, clearly choosing weapon focus doesn't let you snitch cash from the group.
However, suddenly if he chooses craft arms/armor or wondrous item then he chose a feat that lets him start raking in the cash from the group.
I don't think so!
You are saying that these feats allow him to contribute so much to the group that he deserves more than a normal share of the loot.
Thats really what this is. Crafters get more than there share of the loot for taking a crafting feat. They get to take X% more than everyone eise since they took the feat. It just shouldn't work that way.
Choosing any given feat, or class, or skill, or any option should not allow you to take more than your share of the loot- and this *does* under your interpretation of it. And I flat out disagree with it.
You aren't working any harder than anyone else in the group to get the job done. You are doing something different- that is true. But better? is the crafter better than the fighter now? than the bard? the paladin? the rogue? If the feat is so very powerful that taking one makes you worth more than your fair share in the group then they do need to be banned. (the feats, that is).
The fact is- they don't. They give one small benefit: they allow the PC's to spin their gold into directly what they want instead of hoping the dice give them the item they are looking for. It also lets them get it a little sooner than they might have otherwise.
And even then, thats assuming that 1) the crafter has the right feat 2) that the crafter has the *time*.
Crafting doesn't cost money except for the person wanting the item crafted. 100% of the cost is borne by them.
The feat that the caster took? They are getting the WBL benefit (by SKR's ruling) TYhe group is getting the benefit of 1) a stronger crafter (he's twice WBL, if he turns 100% of his loot into his own items). 2) Better itemized selfs. (their WBL doesnt' change, by SKR's ruling. a 4k item is 4k).
Should the crafter *also* benefit by diminishing the wealth of the other party members? Does he deserve- by virtue of taking a feat- to a greater share of the party loot?
I don't think so. I really don't.
Also: Capitalism isn't theft. Lying about the cost of something is theft. Telling someone the cost is X when the cost is really X-Y, is stealing Y from them.
I'm not accusing the crafters if lying. I've not heard anyone yet say the crafter is lying about the cost bump. I am assuming they are up front with it. (since afterall, all the player has to do is find the item in the book and check. I'd know the price of anything before I asked a crafter to make it for me- so I'd know how much gold I needed to give him to have it made).
If he then tries to tell me that the 1000 gold thing is really 1100 because I did my math wrong or I don't understand the crafting rules- that is wrong and theft. If he's upfront about it and tells me he's charging me a 10% fee, then its theft for trying to take my money that he didn't earn. :)
Clearly you disagree with me calling it theft. But to me, it is theft, simple and direct. He's trying to steal a portion of my share of the party loot for himself for using a feat he chose on my behalf.
And apparently if I try to use a feat I chose on his behalf- say by saving his ass in combat, I'm a bad guy.
-S
Sel - how do y'all build characters? Do you each do it independently, or all together, at the same time?
Our current group discussed what folks were gonna make and such so we'd be sure we covered the basic monster food groups (tanky' type, skill type, god dude and arcane dude) and also tried to make sure no one was double dipping weapon types.
Of course, then two of the peeps left and we replaced them and sprouted more later on lol 3 of us and the DM are all left from the original. Of those, I've gone through 2 characters and we've added 4 more players.
At initial creation we all worked through to make sure we had it all covered. We had a major TPK after the new guys came in and we lost some of what we needed. (one of the guys who left was our mage, neither replacement for those two came in as a caster).
After that near wipe (all but 1 dead, only 1 chose to be res'd) we came back with a much stronger and better party.
Did we ever say "hey You become the crafter" nope.
I took scribe scroll as a witch so i could trade spells with the wizard. he took whatever crafting feats he had, so far as I know anyway, without group discussion or input. It was his decision to do so.
The campaign I was in before this current one, I came in around 9th level. They didn't have an arcane caster so I rolled in with a wizard.
The one before that I came in.. err also around 9th I guess? They had all the bases covered so I chose a sorceror.
I prefer the group to come together prior to campaign beginning and work out who's going to play what. Its not as important in a big group. (we have 7 at the table right now. oi) but small groups really, really benefit from making sure you don't end up with a ranger rogue barbarian and fighter. (not that the group can't work. but it requires more work on the part of the DM.. or for them to die a few times and rethink it.)
-S
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Just to be clear, since you mentioned capitalism: the crafter making the item at cost is, in fact, socialism. If it were capitalism, he would be getting paid for it, charging even his friends what the market could bear. That's how capitalism works, and I tend to agree with you that it is theft. That, however, is another thread entirely.
Most adventuring parties are, by their very nature, socialist. Adventurers help each other because it's the right thing to do, without expectation of material rewards in excess of their companions. All rewards are split equally among the members, with no greater portion going to the fighter (for being extra strong - dictatorship) or the wizard (for being extra smart - meritocracy) or the rogue (for being extra sneaky - kleptocracy), or the cleric (for doing the will of god - theocracy). I think that is where the expectation of crafters not charging their friends comes from (also the concept of "pooling party funds"): the social compact of an adventuring party is just that: socialist (in the best possible way).
If you use a feat to save his ass in combat, without expectation of material renumeration, then you're not a bad guy - you're a socialist. If you put a numerical value on his life and charge it every time you save it, then you're in the insurance business (or the protection rackets - YMMV). Fortunately, the game is set in the late middle ages, before capitalism or socialism were invented.
Our current group discussed what folks were gonna make and such so we'd be sure we covered the basic monster food groups (tanky' type, skill type, god dude and arcane dude) and also tried to make sure no one was double dipping weapon types.
So you guys work really hard from the beginning to optimize the best, most synergized, group that you can?
Okay - then I begin to understand where you're coming from in terms of crafting.
My group pretty much says "I'm gonna play X" and it just goes from there. We rocked Second Darkness sans Clerical support and we were bereft of Arcane might for the first 3 chapters of Kingmaker. We don't make any real effort to cover the bases. And it can be annoying, sure.
To the OP, if you want to RP a cleric of Abadar then why not change the mentality of "me and my adventuring friends" to one of "me and my hirelings?" Roleplay out hiring these adventurers to accompany you on your adventures and as such you sell them your crafted items at reduced cost to them. It could add a dimension to the game and remove the idea of you "ripping off" your adventuring buddies.
It changes the dynamics of the group a bit, but if all parties like the idea then perhaps it's worth a shot? I would be sure to offer a fair share of all treasure to all party members up front, though, so as not to offend your fellow players. Nobody wants to play a hireling who has no say or right to a fair share. Good luck!
Except you're misusing the word theft. It's not theft if he tells you what he's willing to sell something to you for and then gives you a choice about whether or not to buy it.
I mean s#!* do you think every brick and mortar store in the universe is stealing from you because they charge more than the interwebs?
That's how business works you the buyer look around at various places to buy things you then buy if the price works for you it's not like they're kidnapping your children and holding them at gunpoint until you buy.
Also nobody takes weapon focus "for the group" you take weapon focus because it helps your build by making you stronger. That indirectly helps the group by making you more effective at killing things but unless you're taking all teamwork feats you aren't taking feats for the group, and the crafter taking the crafting feat and getting 50% more gold for himself while everyone else is still ahead of the WBL curve is helping the group by making himself stronger so where's the issue?
The B&M is only stealing if they are claiming they are selling it to me at cost when they aren't. I know when I go there that there is a mark up. They aren't lying to me about it.
I go to the store, I buy a book, I get a book.
And by taking it for themselves they make the group better. Exactly. No one gets to charge the group to use the feats. Except the crafters? Nope. *no one* gets to charge the group to use their feats. Its part of being in the group.
Merchants charge PC's to use the feats the merchants have.
PC's don't charge each other for their feats.
Bringing WBL into it and all that is just a thinly veiled attempt to make it right for you to swipe your party's gold. It doesn't work.
You don't get to make feat choices and then charge the group to use them for the group.
The barbarian doesn't get to charge per power attack, the rogue doesn't get to charge per trap removed, the paladin doesn't charge per smite, the cleric doesn't charge per channel, the wizard isn't charging per fireball and the guy who chose to pick a crafting feat doesn't get to charge the group to use it.
Clearly some things could alter this.
if the group is forcing the guy to take crafting feats when he doesnt' want to. I'd say that would warrant a surcharge.
The group forcing a crafter to craft while they are out screwing around, and he never gets any down or leisure time. Sure, I could see that.
If the cleric or wizard or whoever *is* charging the group to cast their spells for the group, then the crafter should do the same.
But as long as the group is working as a group towards the group's stated goals and aims *none of them* get to take advantage of the members of the group by claiming a charge for using their feats.
No player gets to charge the other players for using their feats, class abilities, or skills, for the group. Why? Because no player is more deserving of a fair share of the loot as any other player. Presumably, you divide loot amongs the group evenly and thats what folks have to spend. You don't get to say "I have X feat that means I get more of that money". Not a crafting feat, not power attack, not quicken spell, not skill focus (disable device).
-S
So what's more important; the group or the individuals in it?
Our current group discussed what folks were gonna make and such so we'd be sure we covered the basic monster food groups (tanky' type, skill type, god dude and arcane dude) and also tried to make sure no one was double dipping weapon types.So you guys work really hard from the beginning to optimize the best, most synergized, group that you can?
Okay - then I begin to understand where you're coming from in terms of crafting.
My group pretty much says "I'm gonna play X" and it just goes from there. We rocked Second Darkness sans Clerical support and we were bereft of Arcane might for the first 3 chapters of Kingmaker. We don't make any real effort to cover the bases. And it can be annoying, sure.
We didn't make any effort to cover the arcane base after our mage & monk departed and we got a paladin and ranger in return. it worked fairly well until a particular encounter that totally and completely cleaned our clocks. After that, we decided to rebalance it.
My melee bard came back as a witch, the ranger came back as a wizard, the paladin came back as a str based rogue.. we've since then also added in a pure ranger and a magus. The cleric had died but got res'd and the sword n'board fighter hasn't died yet.
So we went from a paladin and cleric as casters, to
witch, wizard, cleric, and (2 sessions ago) a magus.
And a rogue who loves scrolls.
More important? I guess that depends on the situation.
The group often does things so that one person can accomplish some goal they want. Sometimes its one guy wanting something, sometimes another.
We've turned a ton of giants to stone and are taking some effort to transport them across the continent for a project one of the PC's has that the rest of us think is amusing.
Generally- the group though. We wouldn't sacrifice someone for the group as a whole though if we were in the situation where someone would sacririce themselves to let the group escape I could maybe see that happening. None of us are really the squeaky clean paladin type to go rushing off like that to save the group- but it is possible.
We just do our best to stick together and do things for the group. We're not entirely sure yet what "the goal" of this AP will be but we're pretty sure it'll involve saving the world. (don't they all involve saving the world somehow?) and we are, as a group, in it to win it.
-S
No because the Barbarian can't give away his feat. It's like saying okay the Barbarian takes power attack but he can also give the actual feat to everyone else so everyone gets power attack now. Then everyone else picks feats that don't get shared to the barbarian and yet they insist that they're doing just as much to help him as he is doing for them. Seem fair to you?
I'm having a hard time understanding what you mean.
I think you are trying to say that the crafter is better beacuse the barbarian can't give his power attack to someone else.If that is what you mean then:
The barbarian takes power attack. he uses power attack to hit harder, which makes critters die faster. This means fewer resources spent healing both himself and others, and potentially means someone didn't in fact die.
His feat choice contributed to the success of the group.
The barbarian gets 1/x of the loot share. Because he contributed.
The crafter made the barbarian's axe. The crafter has contributed to the group. Because the axe is better than it was before, the critters died faster. This means fewer resources spent healing both the barbarian, and the crafter, and potentially everyone else.
The crafter is also contributing in other ways. But the barbarian is also using abilities other than power attack. Bullrushing sometimes, or sundering a hydra's head or using his survival skill or, well, whatever.
Both are using their feats to help the group progress. To help them progress faster, more efficiently, using up fewer resources which lets them progress further faster.
Does this mean the crafter is entitled to some share of the barbarian's loot?
I don't think so. The crafter used his feat to make the group better. The barbarian used his feat to make the group better. They are doing their part- both of them- to progress the goals of the group.
Both get their 1/x portion of the loot.
Where X is the number of players in the group.
-S
@ sel - okay, so that's were the disconnect is. Your group largely puts the needs of the group as a whole first, and the needs of individual characters second.
My group is a little different. We come together as individuals and become a cohesive group as the game progresses. We always keep in mind that as individuals, we all have different motives and desires.
Sel's group is a committed team from the get-go, so crafting is a team thing. My group works together, but crafting Wizards want to get paid.
I'm fine with this.
/ like it matters what I'm fine with... lol
No because the Barbarian can't give away his feat. It's like saying okay the Barbarian takes power attack but he can also give the actual feat to everyone else so everyone gets power attack now. Then everyone else picks feats that don't get shared to the barbarian and yet they insist that they're doing just as much to help him as he is doing for them. Seem fair to you?
GREAT SCOTT! I must now switch to the Cavalier class so that I can charge others for the use of my teamwork feats via the Tactician, Greater Tactician, and Master Tactician class features! Because I can give away my feats, that means I can charge them, right?
That was sarcasm in case you didn't notice.
Master Arminas
Just to be clear, since you mentioned capitalism: the crafter making the item at cost is, in fact, socialism. If it were capitalism, he would be getting paid for it, charging even his friends what the market could bear. That's how capitalism works, and I tend to agree with you that it is theft. That, however, is another thread entirely.
Most adventuring parties are, by their very nature, socialist. Adventurers help each other because it's the right thing to do, without expectation of material rewards in excess of their companions. All rewards are split equally among the members, with no greater portion going to the fighter (for being extra strong - dictatorship) or the wizard (for being extra smart - meritocracy) or the rogue (for being extra sneaky - kleptocracy), or the cleric (for doing the will of god - theocracy). I think that is where the expectation of crafters not charging their friends comes from (also the concept of "pooling party funds"): the social compact of an adventuring party is just that: socialist (in the best possible way).
If you use a feat to save his ass in combat, without expectation of material renumeration, then you're not a bad guy - you're a socialist. If you put a numerical value on his life and charge it every time you save it, then you're in the insurance business (or the protection rackets - YMMV). Fortunately, the game is set in the late middle ages, before capitalism or socialism were invented.
Just because you don't charge for in combat actions doesn't mean that you are a socialist. You could be, but you could also be a capitalist using your skills as part of the party charter to gain a share of the loot.
Adventurers help each other because its part of their social and business construct. If they let a party member die, they weaken groups ability to do more (whether this is earning more treasure, or social status or whatever doesn't matter). Its in each members best interest to help each other achieve their mission objectives. This doesn't mean giving free wealth though. It is not expected that one party member sacrifice their time (which equals money or at least WBL since you can't gain gold by crafting) to give wealth to another party member. They might choose to do it, to help the party out, but their level of help is their choice. Giving a discount is helping the party, and charging more than cost gives the caster motivation to do it.
Like I said earlier, if the caster charges 6k for a 10k item, the buyer made 4k in wealth, and the caster can then change that 1k into 2k, total party gain is 6k. Compared to 5k for a 10k item, and the gain is only 5k for the party. Charging over cost increases real party wealth (sure, WBL should be adjusted, but the wizards item for himself only counts for 1k, which is fine for the intent and the FAQ ruling purpose of the feat.)
Amazing how capitalism comes out ahead by both giving motive for advantageous behavior, and increases overall wealth. The socialist version discourages even bothering other than relying on people willing to be exploited, and even if they do the overall gain isn't as good.
The only way to get around the fact that charging party members increases overall wealth is to just get rid of the retail price and price everything at cost. This change has to happen campaign wide, and make it so there is no profit in making things. Of course then the motivation to actually make things goes away, and then you don't have to worry about buying things that no longer are available to buy.
Selgard: on the mechanic charging 10 bucks extra: Its his choice to charge whatever he thinks the market will accept. Its not like he is the only one doing it. Also its completely justified too. He had to spend the effort to order the right part, he had to pay the overhead for storing the part until you needed it, he had to pay for his training that let him know what part was correct ect... Nearly every contractor or service person will mark up over their cost parts they get. They won't even have a problem if you supply the part, but good luck finding it as cheap since they usually have connections or industry pricing (which is usually better than consumer pricing).
PC's don't charge each other for their feats.
Clearly some things could alter this.
if the group is forcing the guy to take crafting feats when he doesnt' want to. I'd say that would warrant a surcharge.The group forcing a crafter to craft while they are out screwing around, and he never gets any down or leisure time. Sure, I could see that.
This is what most of the fee crafting folks have been saying. The fee was for compensation for not getting down time while the other got to play, not for pure greed.
@ sel - okay, so that's were the disconnect is. Your group largely puts the needs of the group as a whole first, and the needs of individual characters second.
My group is a little different. We come together as individuals and become a cohesive group as the game progresses. We always keep in mind that as individuals, we all have different motives and desires.
Sel's group is a group from the get-go, so crafting is a team thing. My group works together, but crafting Wizards want to get paid.
I'm fine with this.
/ like it matters what I'm fine with... lol
Not to sound odd, but I do think it matters.
When our "group formed' They were complete strangers. this AP does a good job of that. It didn't take many fights though before that weirdo with the bastard sword and shield was a buddy of mine who I trusted to watch my back and take watch while I slept. He, and the group, also trusted me with it. That trust continued and grew. (until I died to some shadows. *cough*) Then they got to meet the new guy, and that trust didn't exist at first but began to form over time. By the time that character died, he was well trusted by them and trusted them in return.
Its like any "group". You have your group of friends. A new guy (or gal) gets introduced. You don't know them at first, you certainly wouldn't let them borrow your car and probably wouldn't loan them $20 if they needed it. But over time you get to know 'em. You get to know if you should trust them with your car (or your $20) and as you learn and get to know them they learn and get to know you.
That person who a year ago you might not be willing to do anything for, is now a trusted friend who you'd go out of your way for. And they, the same for you.
We definately metagame character creation to make sure we have the bases covered. We also decide on general alignments and such. Its metagaming but it helps us to make the group work.
Some folks might consider how the crafting works in our group to be metagaming. And it might be, I dunno. I'd have to think about it.
But if it takes metagaming to keep someone from robbing the group, then I'm all for it.
-S
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Just because you don't charge for in combat actions doesn't mean that you are a socialist. You could be, but you could also be a capitalist using your skills as part of the party charter to gain a share of the loot.
That's a good point. You are charging, in that you take a share of the loot. Except that, in most groups, if the wizard is unconscious for a combat, or doesn't cast any spells (because they're not needed, or because she is out of them) that wizard still gets paid in share of loot. That's not capitalism. If the wizard doesn't "work": cast spells every combat, stay up, actively participate, etc, then they wizard doesn't get paid. If everyone gets an equal share of the loot, even if they were dead at the time, that's a form of socialism.
Just to be clear: when I say socialism, it's not a dirty word. It's just a word.
Amazing how capitalism comes out ahead by both giving motive for advantageous behavior, and increases overall wealth. The socialist version discourages even bothering other than relying on people willing to be exploited, and even if they do the overall gain isn't as good.
Here, we must disagree. The socialist wizard says, "thank you, fighter, for using your combat skills to keep me from dying. Let me create an item for you at cost, as a reward." The socialist wizard doesn't need the 10% bonus as a motivator, because he understands that the fighter paid him in helping him to still be alive. They are exchanging skills, not coin. The capitalist wizard says, "I owe you 100gp for keeping me alive, and charge you an extra 110gp for that magic item I just made." (I'm not debating real world political systems. This is purely in-game.)
As I said above, it's all about alignment. "Socialism" is LG. "Capitalism" is LE. (Again, in theoretical game terms only, not in real-world application, where all political systems are NE at best.)
I've read a few pages of this, and I'd just like to add my experiences on the subject.
A few campaigns ago, I played a NE Necromancer-Rogue who had a few crafting feats (when it still cost XP to make). I did charge extra (less than full market price) to the other party members.
Why did I do it? I explained it this way.
1. Crafting was something we did in down time. If I have to spend my down time crafting something for you, and you're out doing something else, my time should be worth something.
2. I used the funds to increase the Spells in my Spellbook, thus increasing my usefulness to the party and offer more Items (again, I couldn't spend time Researching New Spells since I had to spend my time on their items, so I would have to increase my expenditures because I was doing them a favor)
3. It cost XP, and I should be comp'd for it (not applicable now)
4. Depending on the relationship of the character asking, did make a difference on the "Mark up/Discount". Character I was normally in arguments over, it was more than if it was the character who was batting her eyes at my character (so he was weak willed ;-).
So that's why I did what I did. If I'm spending my time Crafting, I can't do some of the other things other party members were doing, nor was he able to do his own Spell Research. If you're upfront on the reasons (more than I just want the money), the other PCs are going to be understanding (well, except the 1 I was gouging - but that was In Character and not IRL).
Except we've covered this it's not robbing if you're given a choice just like B&Ms aren't robbing you they're giving you a choice to buy it at a higher cost or shop elsewhere.
Your claim that it isn't theft doesn't change the fact that its theft.
Everyone is contributing to the group. Everyone gets the same share.
One guy thinks his feat is so dang special he's going to charge the group to use it.
If they want him to use his feat for the group, he's making them pay him cash. Forking over some of their share of the loot, to him. He's stealing from 'em. Taking their money for something he outta be doing for free.
Theft is theft. No matter how you try to work around it. The crafter is stealing from his party.
Some folks have given examples where it isn't necessarily theft. And I don't disagree with those.
if Crafter Cindy is locked away in the basement making items while everyone is sittin in the tavern with their thumbs crammed into their posterior aperature, or if the group forced someone to take the feats when they otherwise had no intention or desire to and making them craft stuff for them rather than the crafter's on personal benefit... yeah, i can see those crafters getting pissed off and charging. Actually- what i see is those crafters packing up and leaving the jerks who are using the loot rules to get away with slave labor.
But those aren't my examples.
My example is:
A group of 4-6 people who mutually agree to hang around together for the stated purpose of going after Big Bads in order to roll 'em and sell the loot. The group makes decisions and selects options in order to benefit the group, so that the group is faster, stronger, better, more efficient. Not that the group dictates every character option but that every character is working towards the group.
So the crafter is working with the group, for the group. So is the diplomancer, as is the guy strong enough to be carrying most of the loot, and the guy cracking locks and disabling traps, as is the guy cracking the Big Bad's head so they can loot him. When everyone is taking part in the entire venture of being an adventurer as a group, then they work as a group and there's no need to nickel and dime each other for their time, effort and work. Because everyone is working towards that goal.
If your group isn't a group, if your team isn't a team, if the dudes (and dudeettes) around your table aren't working togheter but are rather just a bunch of people who happen to be on the same road at the same time.. then I guess I can see them treating each others as strangers, and charging each other for their work accordingly.
But the groups I've been in? They haven't worked that way. They've behaved as groups. Adventuring parties. We're out to stop X from happening- whatever X may be. We're in it to win it, not to roll each other for dimes when they use an ability we happen to have chosen for our characters.
-S
-S
ate my post, mumble grumble.
anyhoo:
Back when items cost XP, clearly the caster had a right for some recompense. Things were different then. At least in the groups I was in- a *lot* fewer things got crafted. Often, the only crafting feats folks had were the ones they game gave to 'em for free, because the XP costs made it not worth it. And it was stupid. "you finally figured out how to make that staff. Pity you got too stupid to use it by crafting it."
And also:
Being in an evil game changes alot of things. Anything you expect from your group in a good game, goes out the window. Including the crafting stuff, imo. I'd no more expect an evil wizard to make me an item for cost than I'd expect the group to help me with something without me paying them for it. The whole group dynamic changes when everyone's evil.
-S
That's the key - talk about it, instead of getting angry and putting labels on each other. You can justify charging or not charging as you wish and you must consider that Kingmaker is not quite like the other APs. Our group is happiest with the 25% discount, and I let them sell to NPCs "off camera" at higher than the cost to make things. There is a graduated scale that I employ so that getting full price might take you a year of game time, but you can get a small profit pretty quickly.
This adds a little verisimilitude, and in a typical winter in the cold north of the Stolen Lands, there just aren't many buyers able to travel over the snowy dirt roads.
The other option, for groups that insist on having party members craft for cost, would be to also allow the crafter to spend part of his time crafting for resale with a set scale or a sliding scale of profit. That allows the crafter to act like he is actually part of the world, with the means to generate income for himself. Doesn't he deserve that? I think so.
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Just to add a data point: our group in 3.0/3.5 used 75% of price (+50% of cost) as the tip to a crafter. Worked out just fine. Occasionally a crafter would end up down a level for a little while, but they typically had enough items to make up for it.
In Pathfinder, recognizing the lowered cost to the crafter, we dropped it to 60% of price (+20% of cost). Certainly 75% would be a bit high now. I've only had one player ever have a problem with that (like the OP's group, refused to pay, bought at full price or tried to steal from the party by paying only the cost.) In the end he left the group over that and other tensions.
The point of the 'tip' isn't to make tons of money for the crafter, but to encourage crafting in general, which benefits the party. People want to play fun characters, and a character with all crafting feats could turn out pretty boring. Add a smidgeon extra gold though, and he'll have the disposable income for a fun doo-dad, or a higher headband to make up for missing the Spell Focus feat he could have had.
If you're going to say that charging the party a tip is stealing from the party because everyone contributes to the overall goal of the group, then it *can't* be stealing from the party, since that gold isn't going into a bank account, but towards something *else* that will help the party.
Will the crafter's wealth be higher than the rest of the group? Maybe. For the OP, if another PC gets just 1/5 more use out of a crafting feat than the crafter, they won't. However, assuming they do, that WBL increase will let them make up for missing a combat feat so they can *restore* their combat contribution to what it would otherwise be, a benefit to the whole party.
Just to add a data point: our group in 3.0/3.5 used 75% of price (+50% of cost) as the tip to a crafter. Worked out just fine. Occasionally a crafter would end up down a level for a little while, but they typically had enough items to make up for it.
In Pathfinder, recognizing the lowered cost to the crafter, we dropped it to 60% of price (+20% of cost). Certainly 75% would be a bit high now. I've only had one player ever have a problem with that (like the OP's group, refused to pay, bought at full price or tried to steal from the party by paying only the cost.) In the end he left the group over that and other tensions.
The point of the 'tip' isn't to make tons of money for the crafter, but to encourage crafting in general, which benefits the party. People want to play fun characters, and a character with all crafting feats could turn out pretty boring. Add a smidgeon extra gold though, and he'll have the disposable income for a fun doo-dad, or a higher headband to make up for missing the Spell Focus feat he could have had.
If you're going to say that charging the party a tip is stealing from the party because everyone contributes to the overall goal of the group, then it *can't* be stealing from the party, since that gold isn't going into a bank account, but towards something *else* that will help the party.Will the crafter's wealth by level be higher than the rest of the group? Maybe. For the OP, if another PC gets just 1/5 more use out of a crafting feat than the crafter, they won't. However, assuming they do, that WBL increase will let them make up for missing a combat feat so they can *restore* their combat contribution to what it would otherwise be, a benefit to the whole party.
If I understand SKR's post correctly (and I may not, since we generally ignore it and WBL anyway)-
The crafter gets the benefit of his crafting calculated into his WBL.if he turns 2k gold into a 4k item he gets credited 2k. since he has the feat.
The barbarian has a 4k axe crafted by the wizard though- his WBL is up 4k not 2k. Because its worth 4k. HE doesn't get the WBL benefit of the feat.
So what happens WBL wise (by raw)
barbarian pays 2200 and is charged 4k.
The wizard pockets 200.
When the wizard crafts, he gets 50% off every item he crafts towards his WBL. And he gets to keep 10% of whatever he crafts for the PC's.
See how he's double dipping? His feat is already getting him half WBL just for taking the feat and crafting his stuff. The Barbarian is getting penalized 4k and the wizard is coming out way, way ahead.
The wizard is not only getting the 50% off for crafting his own gear but also getting 10% from anyone he crafts for.
He ends up *way, way* ahead of the group.
assuming he took something sensible for his class like craft wondrous items and not craft rod. (taking craft rod as the lone feat largely removes all the fus since nearly no one wants one anyway and the wizard probably isn't investing enough of his overall wealth into it to matter. Compared to say, craft wondrous items for the wizard or arms/armor for the melee'ish cleric.
Why isn't making the group stronger good enough for the crafter? Why does he also have to swipe an extra 10% from the group? That doesn't make any sense to me.
Your groups are happy doing what they are doing. I'm honestly glad to hear it. Myself though, I couldn't trust that thief in the group with me. If he'd rob from me doing that he'd rob from me in any other way he could and no character i've ever had would put up with that in a group thats supposed to depend on each other in combat and taking watches and everything else.
The group should depend on each other. If one guy is swindling the group out of their share of the loot, how can they depend on him for anything?
I understand you disagree with my categorizing him as a thief, and that your groups work just fine as is. I'm glad. Truly. What works for your group, works for your group. You've find a good way to run the game.
I'm just saying, I couldn't hang with that group. The crafter would either have to straigten up, or I'd (me, the player) would leave the group, or my character would just be a crafter himself and show the group how its supposed to work, or something. I wouldn't just sit and let the dude rob me though. Anymore than I'd let a rogue get away with pick pocketing the fighter, or swiping a sceptre before the group caught up, or anything even remotely close to it.
To each their own, but that way is not for me.
-S
stuff i agree withpersonally, my character would take advantage of the non-full price stuff, but one time when the caster is in trouble, or every so often when the caster is in trouble, i wouldn't help out until my money is refunded. or craft myself.
How is this helpful?
A. - in the OP's case, you've saved 40% on magic items. You know as well as I do that you've folded your savings into other items. You're benefiting here. No two ways about it.
B. - the crafter Wizard is by no means inept in combat. He's doing his part as well.
Basically you're saying that since you didn't get enough of a discount, now you're gonna try tit for tat. Except that as I've shown, the crafter Wizard has never stopped helping you.
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I see you too failed your will save and are posting in this thread again.
stuff i agree withpersonally, my character would take advantage of the non-full price stuff, but one time when the caster is in trouble, or every so often when the caster is in trouble, i wouldn't help out until my money is refunded. or craft myself.
Hmm, that sounds like extorsion or murder to me.
So, am I understanding your response correctly, that you would accept the price, likely complain about it, but pay it, and then when the crafter is in a bind in combat, you would abandon your role, your combat job, unless the crafter refunded you?
Also, out of curiosity, if the crafter is in a bind in combat, how would they provide you the gold in a manner that would allow you to return to your job before they get killed?
From where I am sitting, it appears that you would be the one who was escalating things, becoming a larger criminal that the what you are accusing the crafter of being.
If you do this, please let me know how it turned out, for your PC, the crafter, the group and the players.
stuff i agree withpersonally, my character would take advantage of the non-full price stuff, but one time when the caster is in trouble, or every so often when the caster is in trouble, i wouldn't help out until my money is refunded. or craft myself.How is this helpful?
A. - in the OP's case, you've saved 40% on magic items. You know as well as I do that you've folded your savings into other items. You're benefiting here. No two ways about it.
B. - the crafter Wizard is by no means inept in combat. He's doing his part as well.
Basically you're saying that since you didn't get enough of a discount, now you're gonna try tit for tat. Except that as I've shown, the crafter
Wizard has never stopped helping you.
I grant that I'd be very unlikely to charge the wizard for me to power attack. I use it as an example, and would in game, of how stupid it is for the crafter to charge for his feat.
But, the moment he thought his contribution to the group was more than mine (by virtue of charging extra to contribute to the group) he shows himself deserving of someone doing it back to him. I'd be more partial to the cleric charging for healing you back up, personally. Simply because it illustrates the point ever so nicely compared to stopping a combat to demand payment to save the wizards sorry butt.
"sorry but my healing spells cost 50 gold per level with a 20% extra if I come within 80% of the maximum amount that spell can cure. Have any gold on you? or would you prefer to sit there and bleed?)
but but .. yeah.. but. but.
Charging your group for your contribution because you think you deserve more due to contributing more, is a very quick way to a very bad day.
-S
Probably the heart of the problem is that Crafting feats allow those who take them to turn their free down time into productive time...this then becomes a springboard to charging the rest of the party for use of that down time, at no cost to the feat taker!
The proper way to balance this out is quite simple...let the rest of the party do something with their downtime, to either earn extra gold or extra xp.
Then, 'down time' becomes either a choice of benefits, or the money is a wash. IF YOU WANT TO BALANCE CRAFTING< YOU MUST MAKE THE DOWNTIME OF NON-CRAFTERS EQUALLY AS VALUABLE. Maybe the theif steals, or tests security systems, or gambles. Maybe the cleric is selling spells for donations, or earning xp casting spells for charity. maybe the fighter is training the sons of merchants and nobles with too much money, or maybe he's competing in cage bouts or the arena.
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The benefit of the crafting feats is both custom items AND the doubling of wealth. It's not the doubling of wealth, +10% for something free (the wizard's time). Unless the rest of the party can earn money for their free time, the crafter shouldn't expect to get anything for his...the value is the same.
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RD's graphic designer example falls flat.
RD would CERTAINLY make a kickass poster and display for a friend going to a conference with him that helped showcase both their work and drove business to their doors. Unless he assumes his friend isn't contributing anything with HIS time.
As someone pointed out, the main argument is that now the wizard can make money in his free time, and bork the economic system (if the wizard is suddenly selling at 75%, then instantly all NPC's should be, too...probably after they try to get the wizard assassinated who is trying to undercut their profit levels. Do you realize how much money he's costing them?)
IN short, this whole thing has to come with realistic consequences. If the wizard is allowed to undercut NPC prices, there's going to be fallout.
===Aelryinth
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The real disconnect is that Selgard and company prefer to play in parties that are more or less equivalent to MMO guilds. Hence the Khmer Rouge like expectation absolute cooperation at all times. The other camp prefers to play in parties that more closely resemble a group of friends in real life but given heroic powers and tasks.
In Selgard's Khmer Rouge fantasy game a crafter refusing to give his 100% in and out combat is an enemy of the Party and ends up dead in a rice paddy somewhere.
In my party the time a crafter spends crafting is time he doesn't get to spend with his family, running his estate and pursuing his non-adventuring goals.