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um im just wondering if i can use spell storing enchant (+1) to enchant my arrows with this ability. now i remember ... somewhere, that you can use an arrow as a melee weapon , light, 1d2 damage, x20. i cant remember if its a feat or a rulling somewhere.
now would i be able to enchant said arrows with spell storing seeing as it is only for melee weapons? now it dosent say in the description that you must use a melee weapon, but the mechanic require the weapon to strike the target, which makes ranged weapons unable to be used.
or so im told. anyone do this or figure out the raw for doing this?
As I see it wouldn't work due to two things:
- First and foremost, a melee weapon enchantment does not apply to ranged weapons. While you can enchant the arrow, you can only use the ability when using it as a melee weapon, not when firing it from a bow.
- Secondly, if you enchant the arrow as a melee weapon, you have to pay the price for a melee weapon and not as ammunition. Paying a +2 enhancement bonus for a weapon that is going to break when used a single time, is rather expensive.
As I see it wouldn't work due to two things:
- First and foremost, a melee weapon enchantment does not apply to ranged weapons. While you can enchant the arrow, you can only use the ability when using it as a melee weapon, not when firing it from a bow.
- Secondly, if you enchant the arrow as a melee weapon, you have to pay the price for a melee weapon and not as ammunition. Paying a +2 enhancement bonus for a weapon that is going to break when used a single time, is rather expensive.
Useless non-answer.
To actually answer the question: "It's unclear". The rules don't specifically state that some abilities are restricted to melee weapons, others to ranged weapons. The tables assign some abilities to melee, others to ranged, when randomly generating treasure.
Going by the d20pfsrd, I can't find a rule that forbids it. At my table, it would not be allowed (from rule zero).
As I see it wouldn't work due to two things:
- First and foremost, a melee weapon enchantment does not apply to ranged weapons. While you can enchant the arrow, you can only use the ability when using it as a melee weapon, not when firing it from a bow.
- Secondly, if you enchant the arrow as a melee weapon, you have to pay the price for a melee weapon and not as ammunition. Paying a +2 enhancement bonus for a weapon that is going to break when used a single time, is rather expensive.
Useless non-answer.
To actually answer the question: "It's unclear". The rules don't specifically state that some abilities are restricted to melee weapons, others to ranged weapons. The tables assign some abilities to melee, others to ranged, when randomly generating treasure.
Going by the d20pfsrd, I can't find a rule that forbids it. At my table, it would not be allowed (from rule zero).
I am not really sure whether that was a rude answer to my post, or just a reference to your own answer.
The rules does quite specifically state which abilities a viable to ranged weapons and which are viable to melee weapons. Furthermore it even specifies which abilities that a bow is able to transfer to ammunition, and which can only be placed on ammunition.
The rules does quite specifically state which abilities a viable to ranged weapons and which are viable to melee weapons.
Do they now? I've demonstrated that the tables apply to random treasure generation but aren't stated to be restrictive. If you've found rules text to support your position, please quote it.
Furthermore it even specifies which abilities that a bow is able to transfer to ammunition, and which can only be placed on ammunition.
We're not discussing a Spell Storing bow, we're discussing spell storing arrows.
And I criticized your earlier answer, because the question was about the legality of spell storing arrows, not about arrows enchanted as spell storing melee weapons. You made two claims; the first is still undocumented, the second was irrelevant. Hence, non-answer.
To the OP. I think the rule about the melee damage of the arrow comes from the improvised weapon rules. As for spell storing it can't be placed upon ranged weapons. The tables in the PRD (found here http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magicItems/weapons.html) list what enchants can be placed upon melee weapon and ranged. There will be some people who will argue otherwise because it's not explicitly stated that you can't do something. However, I remember a game designer saying that they didn't write out every rule because they assumed that everything didn't have to be written out. There may be a unique/specific ranged weapon somewhere in the rules that has the ability but I didn't see it.
It sounds like you're wanting some on the fly versatility with your ranged attacks. Might I suggest the Arcane Archer? Their second level ability lets them imbue area effect spells into their arrows.
As I see it wouldn't work due to two things:
- First and foremost, a melee weapon enchantment does not apply to ranged weapons. While you can enchant the arrow, you can only use the ability when using it as a melee weapon, not when firing it from a bow.
Pretty much agreed. An Arrow is actually classified as a Ranged Weapon see this table. The equipment description for arrows does not state that you can enchant an arrow as a melee weapon (as it does with armor spikes an shield spikes.
- Secondly, if you enchant the arrow as a melee weapon, you have to pay the price for a melee weapon and not as ammunition. Paying a +2 enhancement bonus for a weapon that is going to break when used a single time, is rather expensive.
You can only use an arrow as an improvised melee weapon per the description, it is not classified as a melee weapon. As such, I would rule that you cannot utilize any of the melee enchantments on it (if there were any).
I'd agree with what's already been said. You cannot enchant a bow with spell storing (or, rather, you COULD, but it would only be usable when you slap things with the bow as an improvised weapon). You cannot enchant 50 arrows at once with spell storing, though you certainly could enchant 1 arrow at a time as an improvised melee weapon. Though, once again, I think you'd only be able to make the stored spell go off if you used it as a melee weapon.
It seems absurd to claim improvised melee weapons can't be enchanted (I can make a flaming sword but not a flaming frying pan?), but it does seem clear that there is a difference between melee abilities and ranged abilities.
While it is not explicitly stated, the melee abilities do not have the note that they confer the property to ammunition fired from them, which would make them practically useless (note that this is why the Seeking enhancement is practically nonsensical, since it can't be placed on ammunition, and yet isn't noted as conferring the ability on ammunition fired from the weapon, making it troubling as written).
I'd agree with what's already been said. You cannot enchant a bow with spell storing (or, rather, you COULD, but it would only be usable when you slap things with the bow as an improvised weapon). You cannot enchant 50 arrows at once with spell storing, though you certainly could enchant 1 arrow at a time as an improvised melee weapon. Though, once again, I think you'd only be able to make the stored spell go off if you used it as a melee weapon.
It seems absurd to claim improvised melee weapons can't be enchanted (I can make a flaming sword but not a flaming frying pan?), but it does seem clear that there is a difference between melee abilities and ranged abilities.
While it is not explicitly stated, the melee abilities do not have the note that they confer the property to ammunition fired from them, which would make them practically useless (note that this is why the Seeking enhancement is practically nonsensical, since it can't be placed on ammunition, and yet isn't noted as conferring the ability on ammunition fired from the weapon, making it troubling as written).
Often etched with images of spider webs or swampy vines, this sickly green +1 seeking bolt transforms into sticky goo when it hits,…
Somethings wrong here.
-Flash
@sylvanite
For what it's worth, a frying pan is not a weapon, you have to wield it differently to use it as a weapon. I know people are attached to the idea of flaming chairs and whatever, but in my game there'd be no improvised magic weapons.
Frying Pan is a tool, can't enchant a tool as a weapon. But, that's my 2cents on this side issue.
Does a masterwork frying pan add +1 to your attack rolls?.... probably not. Maybe to craft (foods)
Often etched with images of spider webs or swampy vines, this sickly green +1 seeking bolt transforms into sticky goo when it hits,…Somethings wrong here.
What? Seeking is viable for a ranged weapon.
@sylvanite
For what it's worth, a frying pan is not a weapon, you have to wield it differently to use it as a weapon. I know people are attached to the idea of flaming chairs and whatever, but in my game there'd be no improvised magic weapons.
Frying Pan is a tool, can't enchant a tool as a weapon. But, that's my 2cents on this side issue.
Does a masterwork frying pan add +1 to your attack rolls?.... probably not. Maybe to craft (foods)
What? Seeking is viable for a ranged weapon.Often etched with images of spider webs or swampy vines, this sickly green +1 seeking bolt transforms into sticky goo when it hits,…Somethings wrong here.
Sylvanite posted that seeking can not be added to ammunition, Tangle Bolt is seeking ammunition.
@blackblood Id like to add that arrows are destroyed when used but you can just make whole it if your CL is high enough.
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It seems like you could enchant ammunition with Spell Storing but it could not affect anything when used as a ranged attack because Spell Storing requires the wielder to decide if the stored spell is released, and fired ammunition has no wielder.
Feel free to talk with your GM about allowing Spell Storing arrows that function when fired, though, or settle on a Spell Storing bow? Either way, sounds like fun.
Arcane Archers gain limited ability to fire phase arrows at 6th level IIRC as a class ability.
If you're wanting touch attacks, you're looking at brilliant energy arrows as the closest thing to attaining that without Magus.
Being able to plunk area effect spells into your many enemies via imbue arrow is lots of fun. freezing sphere gets really nasty that way...
1. On Masterwork improvised weapons: A masterwork shield can be enchanted as a weapon, I believe. (Please tell me if I am wrong, as I'm not 100% on this). If a shield can be enchanted as a weapon, then masterwork tools are fair game, aren't they?
Also, what about an adamantine frying pan? Am I not even allowed to make that, per RAW? 'Cause that would seem ridiculous and illogical. If I did make it, wouldn't it automatically be considered a masterwork weapon, even if improvised? Or would I be so far outside the rules that it required DM adjudication? (It's probably the latter, eh?)
2. Seeking: Cap'n Moonscar, I'm with you that something is wrong there, considering that the first line in the Seeking description is "This ability can only be placed on a ranged weapon." RAW that means it can't be on ammunition (which also makes the ability seem to not function on bows/crossbows/slings/etc.). My guess is that since the Tangle Bolt is a specific item if functions outside the bounds of what is normally allowed. Either that, or someone screwed up.
I guess you could make the case that ammunition is technically considered ranged weapons, but there seems to be many cases where those are treated as two separate and distinct categories, so I'm not sure it's true.
3. Ammunition breakage happens when ammunition is used as ammunition, I would think. I'm not sure it applies to melee attacks with arrows. I could see the argument both ways, to be honest.
Actually, I'd like to see FAQ answers to all of these issues (though if I am wrong about shields being able to be enchanted as weapons then the first one may be pretty clear cut, even if unsatisfying).
Sylvanite,
Shields are weapons when used via shield bash. They have entries under weapons in the equipment section. Shields are listed under the armor section for magic items, not weapons. Lastly, "The masterwork quality of a suit of armor or shield never provides a bonus on attack or damage rolls, even if the armor or shield is used as a weapon."
Masterwork tools are listed, "Tool, Masterwork: This well-made item is the perfect tool for the job. It grants a +2 circumstance bonus on a related skill check (if any). Bonuses provided by multiple masterwork items do not stack."
So no, they do not give you a bonus on attack rolls, only on the related skill check.
Sylvanite,
Shields are weapons when used via shield bash. They have entries under weapons in the equipment section. Shields are listed under the armor section for magic items, not weapons. Lastly, "The masterwork quality of a suit of armor or shield never provides a bonus on attack or damage rolls, even if the armor or shield is used as a weapon."Masterwork tools are listed, "Tool, Masterwork: This well-made item is the perfect tool for the job. It grants a +2 circumstance bonus on a related skill check (if any). Bonuses provided by multiple masterwork items do not stack."
So no, they do not give you a bonus on attack rolls, only on the related skill check.
This doesn't really answer my question. Can shields be enchanted as weapons? Because if they can, then it's an example of a non-masterwork weapon being enchanted as a weapon.
You're actually furthering my confusion by saying they are listed in the weapons section, and then going on to say that the masterwork quality never gives them a bonus. Sooooooo. Can they be enchanted as weapons?
Basically, is it enough for an item to be masterwork...then it can be enchanted as a weapon? Or does anything enchanted as a weapon HAVE TO BE a masterwork WEAPON? The rules do seem to say that it needs to be a masterwork weapon, but if you can enchant a shield as a weapon, then you'd be enchanting a masterwork piece of armor...thus opening the door for improvised weapons (tools, usually) to also possible be enchanted.
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There is unbreakable ammunition, like the durable arrow. This is good for things like adamantine arrows. Once enchanted, the magical properties stay until you strike a foe, whether you shoot it from a bow, or stab them in melee with it as an improvised weapon. After that, it is just a durable adamantine arrow. No more magical properties.
This doesn't really answer my question. Can shields be enchanted as weapons? Because if they can, then it's an example of a non-masterwork weapon being enchanted as a weapon.
You're actually furthering my confusion by saying they are listed in the weapons section, and then going on to say that the masterwork quality never gives them a bonus. Sooooooo. Can they be enchanted as weapons?
Basically, is it enough for an item to be masterwork...then it can be enchanted as a weapon? Or does anything enchanted as a weapon HAVE TO BE a masterwork WEAPON? The rules do seem to say that it needs to be a masterwork weapon, but if you can enchant a shield as a weapon, then you'd be enchanting a masterwork piece of armor...thus opening the door for improvised weapons (tools, usually) to also possible be enchanted.
"Shields: Shield enhancement bonuses stack with armor enhancement bonuses. Shield enhancement bonuses do not act as attack or damage bonuses when the shield is used in a shield bash. The bashing special ability, however, does grant a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls (see the special ability description)."
No, they can't. Adding bashing grants a +1 bonus specifically. But their enhancement bonus is to their shield value, and does not count toward attacks/damage ever.
Then there is shield spikes.
"Shield Spikes: These spikes turn a shield into a martial piercing weapon and increase the damage dealt by a shield bash as if the shield were designed for a creature one size category larger than you (see “spiked shields” on Table: Weapons). You can't put spikes on a buckler or a tower shield. Otherwise, attacking with a spiked shield is like making a shield bash attack.
An enhancement bonus on a spiked shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but a spiked shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right."
Again, enchanting the shield does not help with attacks made with it. You can enchant the shield spike itself specifically as a magic weapon however.
In short, shields never can be enchanted as a weapon. Yes, anything enchanted as a weapon HAS TO Be a masterwork WEAPON. "All magic weapons are also masterwork weapons"
Alright, then I withdraw my question. I just wasn't sure as I thought there was precedent for enchanting shields separately as weapons, not just with defensive enchantments. If there isn't, then it's clear you cannot enchant tools. Of course, that's RAW, and I think it's ridiculous...I'd allow people to make a +1 flaming chair or frying pan if they really wanted to in my games. It'd be a houserule, though.
The thing is, once you attack with a enchanted arrow, it becomes just masterwork arrow.
Could you cite this please.
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Now this is here in the rules because for the cost of enchanting an arrow is 1/50 the cost of enchanting a weapon. With special cases like the durable arrow, the magic is gone, but the arrow remains.
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(I can make a flaming sword but not a flaming frying pan?)
Mwahaha, I have now found an idea for an NPC in my campaign. Not only can it cook food without needing a fire (as it's flaming) but it's an improvised flaming melee weapon too!!
Helga, the Mother-in-Law from HELL!
(I can make a flaming sword but not a flaming frying pan?)Mwahaha, I have now found an idea for an NPC in my campaign. Not only can it cook food without needing a fire (as it's flaming) but it's an improvised flaming melee weapon too!!
Helga, the Mother-in-Law from HELL!
I met her once. I'm pretty sure she dual-wields the frying pan with a Holy Rolling Pin. Or a Vicious Wooden Spoon.
I met her once. I'm pretty sure she dual-wields the frying pan with a Holy Rolling Pin. Or a Vicious Wooden Spoon.(I can make a flaming sword but not a flaming frying pan?)Mwahaha, I have now found an idea for an NPC in my campaign. Not only can it cook food without needing a fire (as it's flaming) but it's an improvised flaming melee weapon too!!
Helga, the Mother-in-Law from HELL!
Worse ... Power Word Nag. Or Word of Inadequacy.
Worse ... Power Word Nag. Or Word of Inadequacy.I met her once. I'm pretty sure she dual-wields the frying pan with a Holy Rolling Pin. Or a Vicious Wooden Spoon.(I can make a flaming sword but not a flaming frying pan?)Mwahaha, I have now found an idea for an NPC in my campaign. Not only can it cook food without needing a fire (as it's flaming) but it's an improvised flaming melee weapon too!!
Helga, the Mother-in-Law from HELL!
Thread jacked!
which is word for word identical besides the change in the weapon name from Shield to Spike Shield doesn't? How do you figure that, when the exact same text explicitly states that you can make shields into magic weapons.
You're right, that's what I get for posting in a hurry.
Shields are listed under the weapon tables. Improvised weapons aren't. That's what I'm down to now. Well, and also the logical step that if a weapon is a masterwork (to the point of granting an attack bonus) it isn't an improvised weapon any longer.
Armor Spikes and Shield spikes carry the RAW wording that they can be made into a magic weapon in their own right.
A frying pan or other tool/object/misc does not.
I am in agreement with Tarantula that if you had a Masterwork Frying Pan that functioned as a weapon, that's by definition *not* an improvised weapon, but rather an actual weapon.
Improvised Weapons don't function properly (even if you're improvising with a real weapon)... so even if the object had a magical weapon bonus (somehow) you'd have to use it as an improvised weapon (since it's not a weapon) and would not benefit from the bonuses.
The Faith Orb is a good example of a magical improvised weapon.
Can't find any text regarding the faith orb. What is it?
BTW do magic arrows break if you use them as melee weapons? I know they break if they hit when being shot from the bow.
If they don't, it seems like a cheesy way to get magical weapons.
It appears to be a 3.5 item. Reference I found: http://www.archivesofnethys.com/test/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Fa ith%20Orb
It is not a good example. It says, "If used as an improvised weapon, it deals 1d6 points of bludgeoning damage and serves as a good weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction."
So, it does damage as a club that is good aligned. No +1 to atk, no +1 to dmg. Doesn't work like a magic weapon.
Stynkk, the text is: "Magic Ammunition and Breakage: When a magic arrow, crossbow bolt, or sling bullet misses its target, there is a 50% chance it breaks or is otherwise rendered useless. A magic arrow, bolt, or bullet that successfully hits a target is automatically destroyed after it delivers its damage."
I'd say that follows for all attacks with it. No wording that states only if fired. Therefore, if you miss with a melee attack with an improvised magic arrow, you are 50/50 to breaking it anyway. If you hit, it definitely breaks.
Armor Spikes and Shield spikes carry the RAW wording that they can be made into a magic weapon in their own right.
A frying pan or other tool/object/misc does not.
I am in agreement with Tarantula that if you had a Masterwork Frying Pan that functioned as a weapon, that's by definition *not* an improvised weapon, but rather an actual weapon.
Improvised Weapons don't function properly (even if you're improvising with a real weapon)... so even if the object had a magical weapon bonus (somehow) you'd have to use it as an improvised weapon (since it's not a weapon) and would not benefit from the bonuses.
Improvised weapons DO have text that say they can be weapons....it's the whole section on using things as WEAPONS :p
On a serious note, with Improvised Weapon Mastery you don't suffer any penalties (and some improvised weapons to a character like that are better than regular weapons!)...so they function plenty properly!
Either way I'm not really arguing. This is such a non-game breaking rule quibble, that if I wanted to make a character who specialized in fighting with a frying pan, I highly doubt any DM would really say "No! That's against RAW and will bust the balance of Pathfinder WIDE open. Liz Courts and Ross Byers would literally bust through my windows like a nerdy SWAT team while James Jacobs smokes a cigar with a d20-proof vest on at a safe distance. I'd never be allowed to DM again. Ever."
Improvised weapons DO have text that say they can be weapons....it's the whole section on using things as WEAPONS :p
On a serious note, with Improvised Weapon Mastery you don't suffer any penalties (and some improvised weapons to a character like that are better than regular weapons!)...so they function plenty properly!
Here's the quote from the equipment section on improvised weapons.
"Improvised Weapons: Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat."
Funny, ALL improvised weapons are not crafted to be a weapon. Therefore, they cannot be a masterwork weapon.
Also, "A masterwork weapon is a finely crafted version of a normal weapon."
Not, a finely crafted item which is being used as a weapon. But a finely crafted weapon.
The fact that some characters can use improvised weapons as well or better than regular weapons, doesn't make them enchantable.
Funny, ALL improvised weapons are not crafted to be a weapon. Therefore, they cannot be a masterwork weapon.
I agree with your general idea and argument, but this statement is a little too blankety for me since there are weapons (such as Arrows & Javelins) that state they can be utilized as improvised weapons.
So this is almost always true.. some of the time.
Ok...I'm NOT arguing the point anymore. I see that it doesn't work to enchant frying pans as weapons per RAW (not that I really care, though as I don't play PFS and it's not a huge issue if I do enchant one).
Just curious what y'all would say about a +2 Flaming adamantine longspear that gets sundered.
Say that you described it as someone cutting the head off the spear. Would you allow the top to be picked up and still used? Would it be masterwork? Would it be magical? Would you even allow players to make attacks with it? Would it be an improvised weapon? Would it overcome DR/adamantine?
I'm aware that RAW, the weapon's just busted. I'm just thinking aloud here...
What if you ruled it an improvised weapon....and then the player used it to kill an important boss. Then, for RP, kept using it and even wanted to enchant it? Is that not allowed?
(I think my real beef, now that I've sorta thought this out, is that the masterwork requirement for magical weapons makes no sense at all. What does that have to do with enchanting it? If I rip a tooth out of a dragon's mouth, carve it into a decent, but not "masterwork" dagger, and want to enchant it...I can't? Bah. New houserule invented for this guy.)
Say that you described it as someone cutting the head off the spear. Would you allow the top to be picked up and still used? Would it be masterwork? Would it be magical? Would you even allow players to make attacks with it? Would it be an improvised weapon? Would it overcome DR/adamantine?
I assume sundered down to less than 0 hit points and broken.
Top picked up and used? Sure, improvised dagger.
Masterwork? No
Magical? No "A damaged magic item continues to function, but if it is destroyed, all its magical power is lost."
Make attacks? Yes, as an improvised weapon.
Overcome DR/adamatine? Since the description was cutting the head off, yes. If the description involved destroying the pointy adamantine bit, no.
Player could repair it and then continue using it. Just need someone with 2xCL of the original item to cast make whole on it. Then they can continue to enchant it.
If they wanted to keep it as the improvised head? Sorry. No further enchanting until you fix it.
As far as the dragon's mouth tooth? You should've made it masterwork when you crafted it if you wanted to later enchant it. Just like when you buy a weapon, you need to buy one masterwork if you plan to enchant it later.
Spidey, I like it RAW (cue ODB), but I'm not really looking for you to tell me that my admittedly non-RAW musings are non-RAW. I've discovered through this conversation that I dislike the masterwork requirement for enchanting things, as it doesn't make any logical sense....at all. I'd much rather have players able to enchant Frying Pans of Doom, Spearheads of Sentimental Value, and Arrows of Freestyle Fighting if that is their great desire. In fact, if someone cuts the haft in half on a flaming spear, I'd probably let the character wielding the spear use the half with the spearhead on it as an improv. weapon....and let it keep its magic! Heresy, I know!
I do appreciate your answers as to how you'd play the hypothetical situations I presented, even though I deride them as unfun rules-clinging :p
Either way, I recently had an Ogre with a masterwork statue that he had broken limbs off of....he used it as a greatclub. Not only did I not enforce improvised weapon penalties...but I even gave him the +1 to hit for its fine craftsmanship! Yikes! Lookout! Blending something cool into play instead of just making him challengingly built within RAW and using a Falchion or some triteness! Surprisingly, the players thought it was cool, and no one complained that I was "breaking the rules"....though they all know that if they complain I'll beat them with a masterwork frying pan.
Personally, I'm definitely using the Frying Pan of Doom when I can.
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A nature warden could, in theory, enchant an improvised weapon.
Survivalist (Ex)
At 5th level, a nature warden suffers no penalty for using an improvised weapon or improvised tool. At 10th level, a warden can spend 1 minute examining and adjusting an improvised weapon or tool; thereafter she treats it as a masterwork weapon or tool.
Sylvanite,
I was just letting you know what I think RAW would be on those rules. I think clear understanding of RAW is important, so that when games are created, if there are house rules, they can be laid out at the beginning so everyone is on the same page.
Honestly, I'm surprised you'd let the spearhead keep the magic. In a home game I was running, I would probably require a makewhole spell to restore the magic the longspear had, with a craft check to re-fashion the spearhead into a masterwork stabby thing.