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Core+ Wizard Guide: An Expansion to Treantmonk's Guide


Advice

101 to 150 of 243 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | next > last >>

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Bloatmage provides considerable power and flexibility with the blood pool concept, if you can stomach being hugely overweight. Overland flight neatly counters most of our mobility-related disadvantages.

Harrower and cyphermage both look interesting but I haven't tried them.


Highglander wrote:
You might want to check this topic if you are going to rate spells taking combo into account. I think it would be best to rate them being cast alone and make a chapter on spell combo, there is quite a few of them.

I'm trying to split up ratings even when I take metamagic into account. Note that the Snapdragon Fireworks combo definitely starts out as a red spell when you first get it.

I don't think I've rated something higher just for combining it with other spells.

Good thread though, I should link it in the guide.


tonyz wrote:

Bloatmage provides considerable power and flexibility with the blood pool concept, if you can stomach being hugely overweight. Overland flight neatly counters most of our mobility-related disadvantages.

Harrower and cyphermage both look interesting but I haven't tried them.

I've glanced at Bloatmage a few times. I'll review it again for sure.

Harrower uses those harrow cards right? I think I'll avoid that. I'll definitely check out Cyphermage.


Finished the spells and made sure they all had references. Taking a short break and will be back to finish the elemental schools. After that I'll tackle a few good traits and look at prestige classes.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

To expand: the thing about bloatmage is that, while it isn't a lot at lower levels, once you get up to about level 5 in it, you have enough blood points to cast your highest-level spell slot, plus you can bloat for more blood points... what would you give for a class that (effectively) gave you 2-3 more of your highest-level spell slot. Not quite, because you can only power spells you already have memorized, but very handy still. And one of the pre-req feats (Bloatmage Initiatie) gives you a caster level bump in something you have Spell Focus in. Handy (and thematic) when combined with Varisian Tattoo for another caster level bump.

Traits vary very widely depending on what you want to do. Focused Mind (+2 to concentration checks) can be useful. (I admit I tend to look at traits more thematically -- "this is the sort of character I play, what would he be like" or even "This trait suggests a very interesting character to me" -- but there's no denying that some fit a wizard very nicely.)

In default I usually go with save-boosters if I can't think of anything else. (There is no such thing as "too high" of a saving throw, though which one to boost depends on the campaign and your character's other stats and saves.)


Am I missing something about admixture? From the pathfinder srd:

Versatile Evocation (Su): When you cast an evocation spell that does acid, cold, electricity, or fire damage, you may change the damage dealt to one of the other four energy types. This changes the descriptor of the spell to match the new energy type. Any non-damaging effects remain unchanged unless the new energy type invalidates them (an ice storm that deals fire damage might still provide a penalty on Perception checks due to smoke, but it would not create difficult terrain). Such effects are subject to GM discretion. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier

RAW this changes the discriptor of the spell to the new energy type. Thus fireball goes from a fire to a cold spell and is thus eligible for rime spell. The wrinkle is that versatile evocation is chosen on cast, so fireball is still a fire spell when memorized, and thus you cannot memorize a rime fireball (unless you add an elemental spell metamagic as well). If you can cast fireball spontaneously though (via preferred spell or greater spell specialization) and apply metamagics on the fly I think a rime fireball is legal.

Given all that I think fireball is the ultimate base spell for the blaster/controller wizard abusing dazing/rime/persistent spell. Its relatively low level, targets reflex, long range, and a nice big AOE. Stack magical lineage, preferred spell, spell focus, and spell perfection and the appropriate metamagics combined with an admixture specialist and you have a versatile controller wizard casting basically one spell while also doing decent damage. A faded classic rides again!


sorry about the eldritch heritage mistake, I thought the sorcerer would get his ability at lvl 9.

For create demiplane greater, my favorite combo is timeless and lots of antimagic fields inside, as it can only be dispelled inside that will be next to impossible.
Leave only a square out, only you know about.
Put a few golems in there, and no ennemy will survive a visit, try to fighting a good golem without magic gear or spells.
But yes, this beyond the scope of a guide probably.

Plus I believe you forgot the void elementalist, the best one in my opinion.


Richard Leonhart wrote:

sorry about the eldritch heritage mistake, I thought the sorcerer would get his ability at lvl 9.

For create demiplane greater, my favorite combo is timeless and lots of antimagic fields inside, as it can only be dispelled inside that will be next to impossible.
Leave only a square out, only you know about.
Put a few golems in there, and no ennemy will survive a visit, try to fighting a good golem without magic gear or spells.
But yes, this beyond the scope of a guide probably.

Plus I believe you forgot the void elementalist, the best one in my opinion.

I agree about the Void Elementalist, however it's from Dragon Empires Primer, not from the sources I'm doing in this guide. I'll have to save that for another guide (Or if someone else wants to do another guide.)


Pawn512 wrote:

Am I missing something about admixture? From the pathfinder srd:

Versatile Evocation (Su): When you cast an evocation spell that does acid, cold, electricity, or fire damage, you may change the damage dealt to one of the other four energy types. This changes the descriptor of the spell to match the new energy type. Any non-damaging effects remain unchanged unless the new energy type invalidates them (an ice storm that deals fire damage might still provide a penalty on Perception checks due to smoke, but it would not create difficult terrain). Such effects are subject to GM discretion. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier

RAW this changes the discriptor of the spell to the new energy type. Thus fireball goes from a fire to a cold spell and is thus eligible for rime spell. The wrinkle is that versatile evocation is chosen on cast, so fireball is still a fire spell when memorized, and thus you cannot memorize a rime fireball (unless you add an elemental spell metamagic as well). If you can cast fireball spontaneously though (via preferred spell or greater spell specialization) and apply metamagics on the fly I think a rime fireball is legal.

Given all that I think fireball is the ultimate base spell for the blaster/controller wizard abusing dazing/rime/persistent spell. Its relatively low level, targets reflex, long range, and a nice big AOE. Stack magical lineage, preferred spell, spell focus, and spell perfection and the appropriate metamagics combined with an admixture specialist and you have a versatile controller wizard casting basically one spell while also doing decent damage. A faded classic rides again!

My mistake, must have glanced over where it says it changes the spell type.

I'll change what I said for Preferred Spell and Admixture.


tonyz wrote:

To expand: the thing about bloatmage is that, while it isn't a lot at lower levels, once you get up to about level 5 in it, you have enough blood points to cast your highest-level spell slot, plus you can bloat for more blood points... what would you give for a class that (effectively) gave you 2-3 more of your highest-level spell slot. Not quite, because you can only power spells you already have memorized, but very handy still. And one of the pre-req feats (Bloatmage Initiatie) gives you a caster level bump in something you have Spell Focus in. Handy (and thematic) when combined with Varisian Tattoo for another caster level bump.

Traits vary very widely depending on what you want to do. Focused Mind (+2 to concentration checks) can be useful. (I admit I tend to look at traits more thematically -- "this is the sort of character I play, what would he be like" or even "This trait suggests a very interesting character to me" -- but there's no denying that some fit a wizard very nicely.)

In default I usually go with save-boosters if I can't think of anything else. (There is no such thing as "too high" of a saving throw, though which one to boost depends on the campaign and your character's other stats and saves.)

I'll keep this post in mind when I get to prestige classes and traits.

Thanks!


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Looking a bit at spells:

I'd rate anticipate peril as green. Yes, you need to know the danger is coming, but there are a lot of time when you have a few minutes to pre-buff ("everyone ready to kick down the door?"), and going before the enemy does is worth more than most buffs. A wand of it would be very handy at higher levels.

Boiling blood is VERY nice if you have a bunch of orcs working for you (or even a half-orc or three in your party); not so good otherwise.

Draconic reservoir is a spell for maguses or Eldritch Knights, not wizards. Why are you doing melee attacks again?

Enter image isn't an adventurer's spells, it's a BBEG spell. It requires some flexibility in thinking about what an "image" is. Nice for defending your home (have portraits of yourself all over the place), or for necromancers who can sculpt corpse to have their undead look exactly like them. Oh, and if you're the King, did you know your face gets to be on every coin in the kingdom? It's an information-gathering spell of unparalleled use for a clever, patient person. (Did I mention wizards work best when clever and patient?)

Protection from energy, communal -- the thing nobody seems to realize is that the Pro/Energy spells are not replacements for the resist energy line: they're complements. Resistance keeps you from getting toasted by regular problem energy levels (spells below your level, environmental hazards, occasional others), but protection keeps you from dying to single big blasts -- like, oh, dragonbreath, or an evoker using a metamagic rod of maximize The communal one is actually really good if you're going up against a dragon, because you can put up a bunch of protection for everyone very fast, then repeat it before the dragon's breath recharges.

Planar adaptation is at 5th level because while you get plane shift as a seventh level spell, it's fifth level for clerics. And there are other ways of travelling to the planes. I'd rate it orange instead of red -- situationally very useful, but it depends on which plane you're going to and what you plan to do there.


puksone wrote:
Cibulan wrote:

Cool guide but you've missed one of the best post-CRB combos:

Snapdragon Fireworks + Dazing Spell + Heighten Spell = Once per round you can pretty much lock down one opponent.

For example, at level 11 (my current level in the game I play in), I can prepare this as a 6th level spell. For 11 rounds I can lob a firework with a maxed out save DC. If they fail (which they almost always do since you're targeting Ref), they're dazed for 6 rounds (thanks to heighten spell). After your first round, you can use your standard for a new spell, your move for a firework, and your swift to move (teleportation school).

Snapdragon plus dazing spell is one of the most cost effective god combos since it last so long.

wow nice combo. why is it level 6 ? snap dragon is lvl 1 + 3 for dazing + 2 heighten....so it uses a level 6 spell slot, but is like a level 3 spell. So it would daze for 3 rounds?

is the daze effect mind-affecting?

thx

really great guide so far.

I'm by no means a Heightened Spell expert so I could be getting this wrong, but I'll show you my logic:

Dazing Spell: When a creature takes damage from this spell, they become dazed for a number of rounds equal to the original level of the spell.

Heighten Spell: A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level.

It seems to me that Dazing Spell's effect is an effect "dependent on spell level" that Heighten Spell specifically increases. It is well established that other meta-magic does not increase spell level (a quickened fireball is still treated as a 3rd level spell) but Heightened Spell is designed for this.

I'm happily corrected if wrong, however.

EDIT: I see the objection now; that I only increased it via Heighten by 2 spell levels, so Snapdragon goes from a 1st to 3rd level spell. I see what you're saying now. That could be correct but I've never seen it done like that in my 3.5/Pathfinder years. We've always treated it as the new spell slot level; however, we could have just been wrong all along.


tonyz wrote:

Looking a bit at spells:

I'd rate anticipate peril as green. Yes, you need to know the danger is coming, but there are a lot of time when you have a few minutes to pre-buff ("everyone ready to kick down the door?"), and going before the enemy does is worth more than most buffs. A wand of it would be very handy at higher levels.

Yeah, and Initiative is important. I wouldn't memorize this a bunch at low levels though. I'll make it half-green.

tonyz wrote:


Boiling blood is VERY nice if you have a bunch of orcs working for you (or even a half-orc or three in your party); not so good otherwise.

I think by the time you get an orc army, you won't need this spell. As far as the half-orc in your party, cast Bull's Strength, and hope he's not a barbarian because this won't stack.

tonyz wrote:


Draconic reservoir is a spell for maguses or Eldritch Knights, not wizards. Why are you doing melee attacks again?

I think it's bad even for Maguses and Eldrich Knights. You CAN cast this on your buddies too

tonyz wrote:


Enter image isn't an adventurer's spells, it's a BBEG spell. It requires some flexibility in thinking about what an "image" is. Nice for defending your home (have portraits of yourself all over the place), or for necromancers who can sculpt corpse to have their undead look exactly like them. Oh, and if you're the King, did you know your face gets to be on every coin in the kingdom? It's an information-gathering spell of unparalleled use for a clever, patient person. (Did I mention wizards work best when clever and patient?)

According to the OGC it's APG...

Heh, and if you're king, then the normal circumstance has changed dramatically for this spell.

tonyz wrote:


Protection from energy, communal -- the thing nobody seems to realize is that the Pro/Energy spells are not replacements for the resist energy line: they're complements. Resistance keeps you from getting toasted by regular problem energy levels (spells below your level, environmental hazards, occasional others), but protection keeps you from dying to single big blasts -- like, oh, dragonbreath, or an evoker using a metamagic rod of maximize The communal one is actually really good if you're going up against a dragon, because you can put up a bunch of protection for everyone very fast, then repeat it before the dragon's breath recharges.

They're not exactly compliments.

Protection from Energy states:

"Protection from energy overlaps (and does not stack with) resist energy. If a character is warded by protection from energy and resist energy, the protection spell absorbs damage until its power is exhausted."

I don't disagree with you, but it's not that great for the level. If they did stack, it'd be totally worth having. Circumstantially, I suppose, it still is.

tonyz wrote:


Planar adaptation is at 5th level because while you get plane shift as a seventh level spell, it's fifth level for clerics. And there are other ways of travelling to the planes....

Thanks for pointing that out, I mentioned that circumstance and gave it a half-rating for it.

Dark Archive

KaptainKrunch wrote:
ZomB wrote:


Hungry pit: Note that to fly vertically out of a pit you need to make a DC 20 fly check (and it might be deeper than your fly speed), granted you aren't going to catch already flying creatures in the first place.
I don't see in the spell where it says this though, could you clarify where it's coming from?

Its from the Fly skill, not the spell description.

"Fly up at a greater than 45° angle" Fly DC 20


ZomB wrote:
KaptainKrunch wrote:
ZomB wrote:


Hungry pit: Note that to fly vertically out of a pit you need to make a DC 20 fly check (and it might be deeper than your fly speed), granted you aren't going to catch already flying creatures in the first place.
I don't see in the spell where it says this though, could you clarify where it's coming from?

Its from the Fly skill, not the spell description.

"Fly up at a greater than 45° angle" Fly DC 20

Figured it was something like that. That would apply to any of the pits then.


KaptainKrunch wrote:
TheSideKick wrote:

ok i found a few spells that are ,imo, a little miss ranked.

cloak of winds: green
this spell is important to stop ranged characters from obliterating your mage. it is only slightly weaker then wind wall, but wind wall can be countered by flying cratures.

force punch: BLUE
a dagger with spell storing, returning, and ghost touch can can be thrown at targets to blast them half way across the battel field into pits, snares, black tenticles, and any other movement hindering spells, prismatic sphere/wall anyone?

it is also a force effect so it has 100% effectiveness against ghosts, wraths, ect... i use this alot since the spell was released, and it has won me so many battles when used properly.

If Cloak of Winds completely blocked arrows, I'd agree. But if your problem is only arrows, then Shield offers the same exact defense for your standard action. Or Bullet Shield gives you up to a +8 as you level up. Wind Wall potentially protects your whole party (Except against fliers as you mention.)

Cloak of winds would be a superior standard action and worth its level compared to the lower level spells I mentioned if you're being both attacked by small creatures and shot by arrows, or small creatures + a fog spell, but I personally have never run into a situation where I've had to deal with that combination of problems, hence Orange.

Force Punch is a good spell, but are we sure we're talking about the same spell? Being an instantaneous duration, I'm not sure it can be considered returning, spell storing, or a wall like you say. It is nice that it's 100% effective against ghosts though, but that alone I don't think makes it better than the green rating I gave it.

Probably still green, but you can use toppling on your force punch for extra joy.


Traits I like for wizards:
(Combat Traits)
Reactionary*
Deft Dodger
Resilient*

(Faith Traits)
Birthmark
Indomitable Faith

(Magic Traits)
Dangerously Curious
Focused Mind
Magic Lineage*

(Social Traits)
Child of the Streets
Suspicious

(Campaign Traits)
Lore Seeker*
Exile

(Race Traits)
Forlorn*
Warrior of Old*
Elven Reflexes*

(Regional Traits)
Vagabond Child

(Religion Traits)
Eyes and Ears of the City*
Magic is Life

I starred the ones I'd rate blue.

I'm pulling the traits from here since I think the PRD list is good for what you are doing and avoids all the srd add-on clutter.


bfobar wrote:

Traits I like for wizards:

(Combat Traits)
Reactionary*
Deft Dodger
Resilient*

(Faith Traits)
Birthmark
Indomitable Faith

(Magic Traits)
Dangerously Curious
Focused Mind
Magic Lineage*

(Social Traits)
Child of the Streets
Suspicious

(Campaign Traits)
Lore Seeker*
Exile

(Race Traits)
Forlorn*
Warrior of Old*
Elven Reflexes*

(Regional Traits)
Vagabond Child

(Religion Traits)
Eyes and Ears of the City*
Magic is Life

I starred the ones I'd rate blue.

I'm pulling the traits from here since I think the PRD list is good for what you are doing and avoids all the srd add-on clutter.

Very good, I'll review these and add each of them to the guide.

I appreciate this list very much.


Welp, after countless hours this past week, I'm finally satisfied with what's in this guide.

The text is pretty much done save for any adjustments I make based on discussion.

I started doing prestige classes, but then I noticed that the recommended prestige classes weren't in the 3 books I'm doing in this guide. A month from now or so, I'll consider creating a third expansion including everything I haven't included here.

For now though I'm taking a much needed break from this. It was fun and I hope everyone enjoys what its become.

I also hope that I can continue to get feedback and different point-of-views that will help better the opinion expressed here.

Thanks everyone who has contributed feedback so far.


Lessons of Chaldira (1/day reroll a save) and Defensive Strategist (don't lose dex to AC at the start of a fight) are good traits for just about anyone. Both are religion; religion has a crazy amount of good traits. I'll try and look at more of the guide later, been busy. :)

Dark Archive

KaptainKrunch wrote:
ZomB wrote:
"Fly up at a greater than 45° angle" Fly DC 20
Figured it was something like that. That would apply to any of the pits then.

Yup. You only mentioned fly in relation to hungry pit, which is why I raised it there.


ZomB wrote:
KaptainKrunch wrote:
ZomB wrote:
"Fly up at a greater than 45° angle" Fly DC 20
Figured it was something like that. That would apply to any of the pits then.
Yup. You only mentioned fly in relation to hungry pit, which is why I raised it there.

Yup. It's all good. Good to know either way.


Some notes about spell ratings

1) Shadow Projection may or may not allow you to cast while so projected. If so, it should be blue - Inability to die combined with ability to cast is very powerful.

2) Icy Prison is not just a fancy hold monster. It also kills just about anything not cold resistant that fails the reflex save. "Whether or not the target saves, it takes 1 point of cold damage per caster level each round it is helpless or entangled in the ice."

3) Suffocation should be blue. It forces the target to make 3 succesful saves or be reduced to zero HP, all while making the target staggered for 3 rounds while they make all those saves. It's ridiculously powerful, and can get silly combined with the extend spell metamagic.


Further notes.
Haunting mists is RED, not green. With range capped at 20ft, and a cloud radius of 20 ft, you will always effect yourself. You are not immune to your own spell. Making saves against wisdom damage and being shaken from your own spell sucks!

Regarding the various symbol spells, see this
http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz3s05&page=5?Hubble-Bubble-toil-and-trouble# 228
and
http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz3s05&page=5?Hubble-Bubble-toil-and-trouble# 230

Liberty's Edge

Nice guide. :)

Under the 'Warrior of Old' trait, you seem to imply that it would stack with Reactionary. This isn't true as both grant the same kind of bonus (a Trait bonus). If that's not what you meant, you should probably rephrase.


KaptainKrunch wrote:
Corlindale wrote:

I think you severely underestimate the Prescience power from the Foresight school. Having played a diviner, I can't really express how useful it is to have a huge number of pre-rolls each day. It's extremely useful to know in advance when you can safely attempt an attack (or even when you're going to crit!) or a difficult skill check. In a fight against a caster, just using it every round will give you a great statistical advantage when it comes to passing saves.

It's also great for any wizard relying on spells that call for d20 rolls, like Hydraulic Push, Dispel Magic, Telekinesis, etc...

It also helps you a lot against spell resistance.

To me it's a much greater selling point than the aura you get later on, which is just a nice bonus on top the truly great level 1 ability. Incidentally, I think that it's also one of the abilities that is worth spending your elf favoured class bonus on.

Hmm.. True.

There IS a lot of value in knowing what's going to happen ahead of time. While it technically doesn't improve your odds mechanically, it could very well improve your decision making by having an ace in the hole ready in advance.

After thinking about it some more, I like the ability for the flavor on top of the effect. I'll remove my "Meh" sentence and even suggest that for some it might be worth the elf favored class bonus.

Even this undersells how amazing the ability is. Our Kingmaker Magister is an elven diviner, so I've seen him use this ability to its full extent. It's a whole batman utility belt in one ability.

Rather than iterate more subexamples than the below, I would summarize that saying that this ability doesn't actually improve your odds (as you say in your guide) is not quite correct, even if at first it seems that way. I mean, you're just rolling the roll early, right? In fact, if you have one particular check or save in mind for this ability, it is statistically as powerful as a flat out reroll (I'll show how in #4), and in cases where there are more rolls, it becomes more and more powerful.

Possibilities include:

0) I'll number this zero because it's a complement to what's already explored in the other post on the ability in this thread and in your amendment to your guide, but in circumstances where you might lose your spell (such as if you have to make a concentration check to escape a grapple), it can be better to simply not even cast until you have a hanging roll that is a sure thing, rather than potentially lose your escape spell (as a wizard, you have few spells prepared and might not have a backup).

1) Checks where there's a penalty of failure, including those that cannot be retried. Roll your hanging dice first and if you don't like what you see, don't attempt the action.

1b) For the "god wizard" who plays to the personality stereotype, you can also use it for arrogance (works best with elves for multiple reasons)--if you have lots of uses to spare, you can convince the other PCs that you are infallible at a certain type of skill (by prerolling until you have a high number).

2) If you get a 20, you can use an ability that can crit. At low levels with an elf in particular, the party diviner put out some pretty serious damage with his longbow's x3 crit. At higher levels, you can make it something nastier like Enervation or Calcific Touch, albeit with only a x2 crit. If you have a high-Int elf in a game like Kingmaker with few fights per day, you can afford to use the ability every round of a significant fight, in which case crits will come up more often than you might think.

3) When you know the target DCs pretty well--If you have a good sense of the target DCs in an encounter, then, depending on how many d20 rolls you have to make per round (a monster with SR and an aura of save-or-suck might be more times per round, for instance), there's actually a pretty good chance that there's something you can do with the roll that becomes an auto-success.

4) Use it as a "reroll" for one particular important roll. This assumes that you know the target DC (if not, you can ballpark). First, roll your hanging dice. If it is high enough to succeed, then you're done. So where's the reroll? If it isn't high enough to succeed, then just don't use the hanging dice and instead roll again. You've now gained the identical statistical effects of a reroll, and you can use it way more times per day than the jealous luck domain cleric (though true it takes more foresight to use than the cleric ability, but that's the name of your subschool). For a binary outcome, this is the same as being able to roll twice and take the higher (if you know the DC) Even if there are multiple possible results (or you don't know the DC and are guessing at it), prescience is still as good as the ability to reroll while being forced to take the second result.


pad300 wrote:

Some notes about spell ratings

1) Shadow Projection may or may not allow you to cast while so projected. If so, it should be blue - Inability to die combined with ability to cast is very powerful.

I'm not sure you can cast - don't you need to have somatic and verbal components? Can you speak while in these objects? I'll put a half-green on it because you're right, but your body is still vulnerable in the meantime.

pad300 wrote:
2) Icy Prison is not just a fancy hold monster. It also kills just about anything not cold resistant that fails the reflex save. "Whether or not the target saves, it takes 1 point of cold damage per caster level each round it is helpless or entangled in the ice."

This is the wiles of rating these spells at all hours in the day, including early morning. I was so infatuated with how awesome the "always effects them" portion of the spell was that I completely missed how high the damage was (I think in the back of my mind I read one-per-round which is negligible.) I'll update it.

pad300 wrote:


3) Suffocation should be blue. It forces the target to make 3 succesful saves or be reduced to zero HP, all while making the target staggered for 3 rounds while they make all those saves. It's ridiculously powerful, and can get silly combined with the extend spell metamagic.

Interesting... Rereading the spell, I agree with you. It's almost like a free 3 round stagger if nothing else, but even if they fail one save they're reduced to zero HP. That's pretty good all in itself. I think that also boosts the level 9 version too.


KaptainKrunch wrote:
Interesting... Rereading the spell, I agree with you. It's almost like a free 3 round stagger if nothing else, but even if they fail one save they're reduced to zero HP. That's pretty good all in itself. I think that also boosts the level 9 version too.

It depends on the scoping of the wording. If everything that comes after "If the target fails" is considered to be scoped under that "if" conditional, then making the initial save should end the effect with one round of stagger.


pad300 wrote:

Further notes.

Haunting mists is RED, not green. With range capped at 20ft, and a cloud radius of 20 ft, you will always effect yourself. You are not immune to your own spell. Making saves against wisdom damage and being shaken from your own spell sucks!

Regarding the various symbol spells, see this
http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz3s05&page=5?Hubble-Bubble-toil-and-trouble# 228
and
http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz3s05&page=5?Hubble-Bubble-toil-and-trouble# 230

Bleh, that's too bad about Haunting Mists.

I'll have to check out more on the symbols.


Rogue Eidolon wrote:
KaptainKrunch wrote:
Interesting... Rereading the spell, I agree with you. It's almost like a free 3 round stagger if nothing else, but even if they fail one save they're reduced to zero HP. That's pretty good all in itself. I think that also boosts the level 9 version too.
It depends on the scoping of the wording. If everything that comes after "If the target fails" is considered to be scoped under that "if" conditional, then making the initial save should end the effect with one round of stagger.

You can interpret it either way I think, especially because of this sentence:

"Each round, the target can delay that round's effects from occurring by making a successful Fortitude save, but the spell continues for 3 rounds, and each time a target fails his Fortitude save, he moves one step further along the track to suffocation. "

Before that it says this (Which is what you're referring to): "The target can attempt to resist this spell's effects with a Fortitude save-if he succeeds, he is merely staggered for 1 round as he gasps for breath. "

It doesn't actually say it ends the spell. But the order of the wording does favor you.

Being save-or-die for the first round I can't help but feel it's still green. The original would make a great 7th level persistent spell though.


ride the lightning is a swift action cast time, but is a standard action to transform into a lightning bolt


dragonfire8974 wrote:
ride the lightning is a swift action cast time, but is a standard action to transform into a lightning bolt

Bleh.

I'm not sure how that's even that great then.


Deadmanwalking wrote:

Nice guide. :)

Under the 'Warrior of Old' trait, you seem to imply that it would stack with Reactionary. This isn't true as both grant the same kind of bonus (a Trait bonus). If that's not what you meant, you should probably rephrase.

Not my intention, and removed "Another"


Rogue Eidolon wrote:


Even this undersells how amazing the ability is. Our Kingmaker Magister is an elven diviner, so I've seen him use this ability to its full extent. It's a whole batman utility belt in one ability.

Rather than iterate more subexamples than the below, I would summarize that saying that this ability doesn't actually improve your odds (as you say in your guide) is not quite correct, even if at first it seems that way. I mean, you're just rolling the roll early, right? In fact, if you have one particular check or save in mind for this ability, it is statistically as powerful as a flat out reroll (I'll show how...

Heh, the power is good. I don't think anyone can disagree that Divination has the best abilities out of all the schools. You're getting a great deal with just the initiative bonus. (And actually, couldn't you use your prescience on that roll to?)


KaptainKrunch wrote:
Rogue Eidolon wrote:


Even this undersells how amazing the ability is. Our Kingmaker Magister is an elven diviner, so I've seen him use this ability to its full extent. It's a whole batman utility belt in one ability.

Rather than iterate more subexamples than the below, I would summarize that saying that this ability doesn't actually improve your odds (as you say in your guide) is not quite correct, even if at first it seems that way. I mean, you're just rolling the roll early, right? In fact, if you have one particular check or save in mind for this ability, it is statistically as powerful as a flat out reroll (I'll show how...

Heh, the power is good. I don't think anyone can disagree that Divination has the best abilities out of all the schools. You're getting a great deal with just the initiative bonus. (And actually, couldn't you use your prescience on that roll to?)

Unfortunately probably not, since you can only use prescience at the beginning of your turn, and you probably haven't had a turn yet when you rolled initiative.


KaptainKrunch wrote:
dragonfire8974 wrote:
ride the lightning is a swift action cast time, but is a standard action to transform into a lightning bolt

Bleh.

I'm not sure how that's even that great then.

its a 1/round staggering lightning bolt. not a good blasting spell, but it can keep the badguys staggered because it targets reflex. can be good maybe


dragonfire8974 wrote:
KaptainKrunch wrote:
dragonfire8974 wrote:
ride the lightning is a swift action cast time, but is a standard action to transform into a lightning bolt

Bleh.

I'm not sure how that's even that great then.

its a 1/round staggering lightning bolt. not a good blasting spell, but it can keep the badguys staggered because it targets reflex. can be good maybe

1 round of stagger could be accomplished without a save by casting suffocate, mass - given that they have lungs sure, but you're assuming they aren't immune to electricity in the case of the lightning bolt.

A standard action is a Time-Stop, a Mass Icy Prison, or Summon Monster IX at that level.

The only advantage Ride the Lightning gives is that it saves on your resources. But you have a whole library of lower level spells that you could be doing instead with your standard action, and even without intelligence modifiers the 20 rounds Ride the Lightning would cover could be filled with all of your spells 5th through 8th level, all of which could easily do the same if not more damage with better metamagic effects.

The movement is cool, but if you just need movement, Dimension Door is a standard action which starts at 400' as a 4th level spell.


That Icy Prison spell is weird.
So if the target makes its save it is entangled for 1 min/level and gets 1 point of cold damage/level every round. wtf?

When the target fails its save it is in the icy prison and takes the same damage every round. But when someone destroys the ice or the target makes the Strength check, it is free and take no further damage. ( I know my GM some minions will destroy the ice)

So in some cases it is even better when the target fails its save. I got that right?


puksone wrote:

That Icy Prison spell is weird.

So if the target makes its save it is entangled for 1 min/level and gets 1 point of cold damage/level every round. wtf?

When the target fails its save it is in the icy prison and takes the same damage every round. But when someone destroys the ice or the target makes the Strength check, it is free and take no further damage. ( I know my GM some minions will destroy the ice)

So in some cases it is even better when the target fails its save. I got that right?

They take damage when they fail their save too.

This next part is just me musing about odds:
Shoelessinsight hasn't done an average strength for monsters, so I'll just grab a Red Wyrm Red Dragon as a test subject. This particular subject could just breathe fire on himself but I'm just looking at his strength score.

The strength check to break the ice is DC35 at level 20. A Great Wyrm Red Dragon trying to break free has a 41 strength or a +15 to the roll meaning he has a 5% chance of breaking out this way.

A Balor with a 35 str has no chance of breaking out. You need at least a 40 strength to break out. Not even the mighty Jabberwock has that much strength.

That's okay though because the ice only has 60hp at this level with 0 hardness, so any of these creatures could just break open the ice with a full round of attacks.

So you want them to fail their save. The damage for even one round of being in the ice is 20, but you did keep them somewhat occupied even on a failed save.


pad300 wrote:
Haunting mists is RED, not green. With range capped at 20ft, and a cloud radius of 20 ft, you will always effect yourself. You are not immune to your own spell. Making saves against wisdom damage and being shaken from your own spell sucks!

This is incorrect.

Spells are targeted at grid intersections, not squares. As such, targeting the spell on one of the far corners of the square 20ft. away (max range) puts the caster right on the edge of the mist, but not standing in it.

It's still a decent enough spell, even more so if you can coordinate with another caster to take advantage of the shaken + Wis drain by targeting a Will save before the enemies just leave the mist. Alternatively, combining this with an immobilizing effect can be pretty devastating.


KaptainKrunch, you might want to add a note to Dancing Latern as it has great synergy for Pyrotechnics. Instead of carrying a torch around just have the latern float with you and when needed cast Pyrothcnics to blind your foes.


Saint Bernard wrote:
KaptainKrunch, you might want to add a note to Dancing Latern as it has great synergy for Pyrotechnics. Instead of carrying a torch around just have the latern float with you and when needed cast Pyrothcnics to blind your foes.

Still not sure that raises its rating at all since you're casting two spells for one spell that could easily be ignited with an alchemists fire, but I'll note the option.

Depending on what familiar you have you could use their standard action to drop an alchemists fire, or even carry the lamp instead of casting this spell.


pad300 wrote:

Further notes.

Haunting mists is RED, not green. With range capped at 20ft, and a cloud radius of 20 ft, you will always effect yourself. You are not immune to your own spell. Making saves against wisdom damage and being shaken from your own spell sucks!

I disagree. Haunting Mists is an Illusion (Figment). Doesn't a caster automatically disbelieve his or her own illusions? The rules say, "A character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw," and having created the illusion surely counts as proof.

That means a caster sees through his/her Haunting Mist as if it weren't there, and ignores its ability-damaging effects...which makes the spell an interesting twist on Obscuring Mist.

Presumably, if you tell your companions Haunting Mist is an illusion ahead of time, they'll get a will save (at +4!) to disregard it too.


KaptainKrunch wrote:

This next part is just me musing about odds:

Shoelessinsight hasn't done an average strength for monsters, so I'll just grab a Red Wyrm Red Dragon as a test subject. This particular subject could just breathe fire on himself but I'm just looking at his strength score.

I just added the other five ability scores to the statistics sheet. I originally only did Wisdom because I was curious about Intimidate DCs, but I couldn't see much reason to do the others at that time. Since you were curious, though, and they're easy to add, I just did them all.

Now I need another statistic to add so I can keep all the columns filled. It's nice to have everything nice and even, after all. =)


KaptainKrunch wrote:

...

That's okay though because the ice only has 60hp at this level with 0 hardness, so any of these creatures could just break open the ice with a full round of attacks.

So you want them to fail their save. The damage for even one round of being in the ice is 20, but you did keep them somewhat occupied even on a failed save.

If the target fails it's save, without outside intervention, they just die. The spell specifies the subject who fails their save is helpless. I don't think you get to take actions if you are helpless... No full attack to break out for you Mr. Balor.

Liberty's Edge

Just a quick correction on Clashing Rocks. It doesn't just prone the target on a failed save, it buries them as if in a cave in, needing a DC 25 strength check to bust out. Might push the spell more towards green than orange.


Reshal wrote:
Just a quick correction on Clashing Rocks. It doesn't just prone the target on a failed save, it buries them as if in a cave in, needing a DC 25 strength check to bust out. Might push the spell more towards green than orange.

I thought I put that as green already.

... oh that's right, I was kind of on the border.

Fixed.


pad300 wrote:
KaptainKrunch wrote:

...

That's okay though because the ice only has 60hp at this level with 0 hardness, so any of these creatures could just break open the ice with a full round of attacks.

So you want them to fail their save. The damage for even one round of being in the ice is 20, but you did keep them somewhat occupied even on a failed save.

If the target fails it's save, without outside intervention, they just die. The spell specifies the subject who fails their save is helpless. I don't think you get to take actions if you are helpless... No full attack to break out for you Mr. Balor.

Heh, I think we're on the same page.


Great work on the guide, it is very helpful. I would like to hear your thoughts on the void elemental school if possible.


Guide says for teleportation subschool: "Note that in the description of Dimensional Door which this power explicitly says it’s based off of, it says “After using this spell, you can't take any other actions until your next turn.” This would lock out any benefits of using this to avoid grappling compared to Dimension Step, the 8th level power."

Umm...except the part where Dim. Steps is spell-like, and this is Su. Have you SEEN the stupidly insane bs concentration DCs for casting in a grapple? That's why that ability IS good for grapple escape. No concentration check.

I like Evocation, but I think ranking the specialty as blue is being a little too kind.

Transmutation and Enhancement subschool may warrant a better rating, not sure why the former especially is so low.

On to level 2 spells...

Slipstream: This is decent simply for NOT being an enhancement bonus to speed. So, it stacks with longstrider, the boots, haste, any of that stuff.

Returning Weapon: I think this is red. Returning property sucks, it doesn't come back till the start of your next turn and goes to the square you were in, not where you currently are (if you've moved). In any case, the communal version is just one level higher and will hit a whole lot of weapons. The duration is too short for long term use anyway, so dividing it up on lots of weapons is far more useful.

Stone Call: It's a great spell. I would not do dazing with it much, as it'd just be another area will save or lose, though it would be a big area, I suppose.

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