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Witch / Monk - Bad idea?


Advice

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Pathfinder Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I have returned to Pathfinder after 4E being such a huge disappointment for me...especially the 4E "Witch"

We are starting a new campaign and I have never played the PF Witch before.

I thought about making a 1/2 elf witch/monk......the character is an asian themed character so I thought the witch/monk might be fun. The DM has allowed me to use the Kung Fu Master feat which allows me to use INT instead of Wis. I was planning on only taking 1 lvl in monk for the extra AC bonus as I was only interested in the defensive abilities of the Monk and not the attack abilities.

Is this a bad idea to make a INT based Monk/Witch or should I stick with just straight Witch. If I go straight Witch, how should I boost my defenses?

Any suggestions what would be good Traits to take? I took the one which gives me an extra cantrip from another list as I love Presdigitation.

Thanks to anyone who can give me advice.

Qadira

Look up a guide for a Magus/monk/white haired witch. U use your hair to kick some butt


Multi-classing in pathfinder is generally much less powerful than sticking with a single class (very different from 3.5). If your GM has said that he/she wants to have a low-power campaign, and encourages all the characters to multi-class, then go for it, but if the other players are going to stick with a single class, you will quickly fall behind the power-curve. Additionally, both Witch and Monk get extra punished for multi-classing. (most of their abilities are based on class-level)


1 Level of Monk can be useful for any Class. +2 all saves 3 bonus feats bonus AC, ect. The witch is a great buff mage, take Transformation or Strength patron if your going for melee

Trait:
Magical Knack +2 CL as long as it doesn't raise it above your HD
Good for multiclass casters.

-Flash


Pathfinder Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Not planning on meleeing.

My party consists of Magus, Cleric, Barbarian & Alchemist so I have others who will be up front. It will be a very brutal campaign where if you die, you die. Smart enemies will target my familiar - I choose alitle dragon lizard so he can remain hidden on my person.

I want to focus on Debuffing & control. I want to focus mostly on my Hexes. I was planning on taking Flight, Sleep, Cackle & Evil Eye.

Should I dip the one lvl into Monk for the AC bonus & DEX skills like acrobatics OR focus on just Witch, get Scribe Scroll & load up on Mage Armor?


If you're not going to melee, I'd recommend skipping the monk. Mage Armor's worked for my witch so far, but hiding behind the tough-guys is definitely a witch's primary combat tactic.

I'd suggest not taking Cackle unless you also grab Fortune or Misfortune. (Which I would recommend, as they're awesome.) Evil Eye's got a pretty good duration as it is.

As for Acrobatics, don't forget that PF is a LOT less punishing out out-of-class skills that D&D3 was - my witch has a point or two in Acrobatics, and she's actually gotten lucky on the tumble die-rolls so far. And with high Int, witches generally aren't hurting for skill points.

Good luck!

Shadow Lodge

3 people marked this as a favorite.

its a bad idea. monk would net you... nothing that would be usful to a witch. you would need 5 stats to function. that means a +1 or better in 5 scores.

it would be a better choice to go solid witch, or monk/hexcrafter magus.

now a hex crafter magus would be pretty sweet if you used a kukuri and unarmed attack. unarmed strike + hex strike is very awesome.


If your not gonna melee then I would skip the monk both thematically and mechanically.

Cackle is great even with just evil eye because it lasts at least 1 round can be cackled every round for 1 extra round and you can use evil eye over and over on differnt stats, AC or Saves or to Hit. That being said I would still pick up Fortune Hex as a Debuff mage. Toss in some Persistant spell metamagic later on. Good Times.

-Flash


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Witches knowing Kung Fu?

Name her Witchifu and she can defeat any Half-Dragon she meets, even if they get elected.

Those of you who get the reference, just admit you're old...


1 person marked this as a favorite.

If it sounds fun to play, then it may be worth playing.

While others before are right in that it's not the strongest class combo, it's not horrible to the point of worthlessness as some people seem to be suggesting. So long as you don't try to do everything that both classes offer at once you should be fine. Pick one or two things you want to be good at and focus on those.

Ultimate Combat provides a lot a feats for multiclassed monks too. Flipping through it, it looks like the witch/monk one is Hex Strike, which is more useful for a primarily monk character than a primarily witch one, so that's unfortunate. It also relies on your unarmed strike, so if you're staying out of melee it won't be useful to you. Again, unfortunate since Hex Strike is one of the few things a witch/monk can do that generally wouldn't be possible without the class combo.


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I like the backstory possibilities - parents/guardians embarrassed of developing witch abilities, so they send him/her to a monestary, which ends badly....

Of course, fun back stories don't always do well in combat. I have an oracle with Attention Deficit Disorder and a converted character from Gamma World that would have made better town NPCs than adventurers


So bassically you want to lose a caster level to get +2 to all Saves and add INT to your AC (which might easily mean +6 or so) that adds with anything.

I'd say thematically it's not really sound, but from a pure powergaming point of view, it might work.


It's a horrible idea mechanically. Int is one of only two dump stats a monk has, and wis is hardly high on a witch's totem pole. And a witch loses more than just about any other caster by multiclassing, since hexes are so good.
EDIT: Missed that Kung Fu Genius was allowed. It's still pretty subpar to dilute the witch levels and witch certainly lacks the BAB and HD to fight well, but for purely defensive boons...I guess 1 level in monk isn't awful. If you're only interested in defense, consider Master of Many Styles and go for Crane Wing (if you take Dodge at level 1 or any time before monk, and go into monk at level 3 or any odd level thereafter, you can take Crane Style as your general feat and Crane Wing as your monk feat).

I'm all for trying to make Bayonetta, but the existing witch class isn't very good for making a "witch" from that game. Perhaps a dex-based Hexcrafter Magus that dips MoMS Monk and uses Hex Strike for swift action unarmed hex delivery could work. Using gestalt rules from 3e certainly makes a kung fu witch easier to do...


Pathfinder Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Hmm so if I went pure Witch but still want the "flavor" of martial arts, are there any feats I could pick up that thematically it could be "martial arts"?

Is a Witch able to use a Spellbook as a backup if her familiar goes SPLAT??

It would be a backup that she could use as "scrolls" to reteach a new familiar those spells. I guess I could always keep rolled up scrolls in a tube too.


Witch has d6 HD, poor BAB, and terrible proficiencies. If you want a "martial arts witch" the best you can currentl do is Hexcrafter Magus. Or use gestalt rules, where you advance two classes simultaneously and combine witch with any melee class you want. Except Barbarian...rage does not mix well with casters...


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Take improved unarmed strike, ranks in acrobatics, and up the fluff. Two characters, same stats, same feats, same class, and very different flavor. That is something all players should remember.


Askanipsion wrote:
Hmm so if I went pure Witch but still want the "flavor" of martial arts, are there any feats I could pick up that thematically it could be "martial arts"?

Personally, I would just reflavor Intimidate's Demoralize action and the Evil Eye and Misfortune hexes as special scary or debilitating "martial arts" moves.

You're not the kind of martial artist that punches and kicks. Instead you throw little marbles or darts or something to hit pressure points that hinder your foes.

Traits
Unnatural Presence

Feats:
Skill Focus (Intimidate)
Persuasive
Ability Focus (Misfortune) - if GM allows
Ability Focus (Evil Eye) - if GM allows


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Go for it. Have fun. Screw the munchkins.


Where did you get the Kung Fu feat?


Pathfinder Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Shalafi2412 wrote:
Where did you get the Kung Fu feat?

It is from Dragon Magazine #319


That sounds like a blast go for the Wonk!
Or the Mitch!

-Moox


Witch/Monk would be hilarious. It's a TERRIBLE combination, but hilarious.

My suggestion: Go White-Haired Witch and tie people up in your hair, grappling everyone nearby you so you don't need to worry about AC.

As it is, as a witch you can Heal, Hex, and dish out epic pain. Get Bracers of Armor, you don't need Monk for the AC.

Admittedly, if there was a way to play Witch/Monk effectively? I would TOTALLY do that. It's too hilarious not to try.


Askanipsion wrote:
Hmm so if I went pure Witch but still want the "flavor" of martial arts, are there any feats I could pick up that thematically it could be "martial arts"?

Could you expand on your character concept? Earlier you said that you did not plan on going into melee, but now it sounds like you do want to.

It sounds like you might want to look into Magus.


If I read WHW correctly they loose hexes don't they?

Lantern Lodge

Shalafi2412 wrote:
If I read WHW correctly they loose hexes don't they?

yeah, but they can gain 30 foot reach with thier hair.


Have you seen one played Bright Sun?


Pathfinder Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
slacks wrote:
Askanipsion wrote:
Hmm so if I went pure Witch but still want the "flavor" of martial arts, are there any feats I could pick up that thematically it could be "martial arts"?

Could you expand on your character concept? Earlier you said that you did not plan on going into melee, but now it sounds like you do want to.

It sounds like you might want to look into Magus.

Meaning that if an enemy comes at me in melee, I can use my "martial arts" to evade/dodge the attack....not looking to attack with the unarmed attacks as I would then need Weapon Finesse...looking for more a "soft" style of martial arts

I love the Hexes so don't want to go Magus...even though I know an archtype gets it later.


Why not simply use Sohei to qualify for Eldritch Knight? It's not like getting a lot of levels of monk will help you and Monastic Legacy and Hex Strike should help make the melee concept work more.


StreamOfTheSky wrote:
Witch has d6 HD, poor BAB, and terrible proficiencies. If you want a "martial arts witch" the best you can currentl do is Hexcrafter Magus. Or use gestalt rules, where you advance two classes simultaneously and combine witch with any melee class you want. Except Barbarian...rage does not mix well with casters...

I want to second the Hexcrafter Magus. I would that a dip into monk with the hexcrafter could get the flavor desired without leaving the entire concept behind the power curve.

I would definitely suggest dropping flurry of blows for an archetype since flurry is a full round action and so is spell combat. Hex strike would be an excellent choice since you can then spell combat, spell strike and land a hex on a foe all at the same time.

A master of many forms could be a good choice with Kirin style and Dragon style working well together (I would only take 2 monk levels) -- helping you charge and deal more damage when you hit.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

I agree about the magus. One should never define one's character by the name of his class.

Taldor

Witch/Monk: The only combination (to my knowledge) that can animate their mustache to punch a man to sleep (and at higher levels, change their race.) Couldn't see one viably survive, though.


Go Sohei Monk/Witch. Don't go White Haired witch, because your caster level will suffer from this combination, meaning that you're Hair Grappling will suffer. Stick to standard Witch.

They're right. Eldritch Knight is EXACTLY what you're looking for. You'll need something like 5 levels of witch (I'd suggest 6), and then 1 level of Sohei (I suggest you make that 2), then take levels in Eldritch Knight. it's viable.

O_O I didn't even THINK of Eldritch Knight...but yeah. It works. The only bad point is that you'll have to go at least 5 levels of witch first before you can take levels in sohei. Furthermore, you're going to be more of a fighter than any kind of monk, although you'll have Evasion and Light Armor Proficiency and Monk AC bonus. So it should work out in your favor.

I would also suggest dropping flurry of blows...just because Eldritch Knight gets Full BAB anyway.

It's crazy. But it could work.


Pathfinder Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Can a Witch make a backup copy spellbook if she has Scribe Scroll feat? In otherwords, if my familiar goes SPLAT, can I have backup copies in a spellbook to then reteach my new familiar those spells??

Or will I just have to keep a bundle of many scrolls as backups?


If you're not planning on meleeing, dump the monk and just go witch. If you're planning on meleeing, and want to keep the witch flavor, consider going straight magus, with the Hexcrafter and Staff Magus templates laid overtop of the Magus powers. Then spend your magus wigits on hexes, and dump extra feats on magus stuff.

Quote:
Or will I just have to keep a bundle of many scrolls as backups?

Bundle of scrolls, unfortunately. There are ways around it, though. If you can get in a coven, teach another witch all your spells and your new familiar can learn them from that witch's familiar. Covens are super useful for witches. Which is kinda neat flavor, IMO.


I'm actually playing a Monk1/Witch5.

We've had a single adventure so far, but my character was actually really effective for what she was intended for. Which is - get really good defenses up via AC/Saves/Defensive Style Feats (Master of Many Styles is a must), and draw attacks away from the rest of the party, while casting/hexing baddies. Oh, and counterattacking with Snake Style, but a combination of low-rolling and getting stuck against high-AC enemies cramped my style as far as that went.

Admittedly, it's only working so well because we needed a tank build, and because I managed to get a way to get a way to get Shield on myself (in my case, a custom magic item, but we could have done it by way of Alchemist Infusions, or if you've got the money to spend that spell-storing Ioun stone should work, or in a real pinch just get that UMD score to 10 somehow and get yourself a wand, or just spend more money on AC boosters, or...)

On the other hand, my overall build could be even better. I should have gone with Crane Wing as my bonus style feat, instead of Snake Fang, for starters. I thought that I'd be able to land

Offensively, though - I've basically sacrificed a spellcaster level (and maybe a couple of points of save DCs) to gain really good defenses. I also sacrificed any sort of relevant melee ability, too. That said, I think that the Hexes can compensate for that (Slumber is especially awesome, and if you make your character an Elf you should be able to get a fairly insane DC on that save.)


Pathfinder Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

What is the better hex to take at 1st lvl? Slumber or Evil Eye?


You're going to want to take them both sooner or later anyway, so I'd say slumber. Gives you something to do when your spell pyramid runs out.


Get prehensile hair and pretend its hair-fu, by using it for touch attacks , or maybe grappling or something if you're attacked.

Improved familiar for some familiar who got at will invisible or good survivability as soon as you hit 7 would be my advice if you're so afraid of losing it.

That Compasaurus got +4 init and is small, which would probably be an alright starting familiar. Flight helps if you want to be defensive, and out of reach.

Slumber, while powerful, doesn't feel too hair-fu, though, but I might be biased (I don't enjoy slumber myself).


Just because Eldritch Knight, multi-classing and thus prestige classes in general were mentioned: Remember that your hexes do not increase in effectiveness or DC unless you take witch levels. So if you, for example, took witch 5/fighter 1/eldritch knight x, all your hexes would remain as strong as for a 5th level witch.

Just so you are not surprised if you go that route :-)


I didn't pick up the Slumber feat, mostly because at the time I created my character there were several people mentionning that it was way overpowered.

If you do pick Slumber, consider being an Elf - there's an alternate race (or is it racial? Anyways, one that is in the elf description, not the trait list) trait that gives a bonus to sleep effect DCs. And the +2 to int and dex works well with the witch-monk combo.

Evil Eye works nicely enough (although you really need Cackle to make it worth it.)


Pathfinder Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I created my witch & decided to go full witch for 1st lvl instead of Apprentice monk/witch.

Decided I wanted to focus mainly on Hexes - I took Flight & Evil Eye. Already been in alot of close call fights - wish I had taken Slumber instead of Flight for 1st.

Eldritch Knight is too "melee" based for this character - I only want the 1 level in monk for the defense bonus & Snake Style.

1) Except for gaining more Witch levels, is there anyway you can boost up the DC of Hexes??

2) Are you allowed to retrain Hexes when you level for Pathfinder?


Flight is best taken around level 5, as it's around there it really kicks in. Cackle or Misfortune would have been more handy that early (if you're not set on taking the OPness that is Slumber).

1) Higher intelligence is your best bet. Dump every stat increase into Int and aquire more Int with items (or keep up Threefold Aspect and look like an old crone at all times if you want to save gold, as soon as you got access to 3rd/4th level spells - or whatever it is).
Ability focus:[a particular Hex] I could see some GMs allowing.

2) Ask your GM. I believe most don't even allow retraining.

On the subject of monk: why Snake Style? It doesn't seem at all handy. It's only Snake Fang which is any attractive in that feat chain. Plus, you're not really increasing those hex DCs by taking monk levels.


if you use 3rd party stuff, feats of multiclassing from super genius games has a feat called Ajuoga that lets a multi class witch/summoner replace their familiar with an eidolon and level it with which levels... only takes a 1 lvl dip and you turn your familiar from a liability into an asset!


Pathfinder Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Raje wrote:

Flight is best taken around level 5, as it's around there it really kicks in. Cackle or Misfortune would have been more handy that early (if you're not set on taking the OPness that is Slumber).

1) Higher intelligence is your best bet. Dump every stat increase into Int and aquire more Int with items (or keep up Threefold Aspect and look like an old crone at all times if you want to save gold, as soon as you got access to 3rd/4th level spells - or whatever it is).
Ability focus:[a particular Hex] I could see some GMs allowing.

2) Ask your GM. I believe most don't even allow retraining.

On the subject of monk: why Snake Style? It doesn't seem at all handy. It's only Snake Fang which is any attractive in that feat chain. Plus, you're not really increasing those hex DCs by taking monk levels.

I like Snake Style for the ability to get the higher AC when attacked - also uses Immediate actions since the witch doesn't seem to have any immediate actions. Better to just focus on getting Mage Armor up more than Snake Style??

The original reason I took Flight at first was for the Feather Fall effect. My DM uses House Rules for falling where it does CON dmg instead of hp dmg. So suddenly I got paranoid I was going to fall to my death soon. Dead is dead in this campaign. Oh well I guess I am stuck with it since there is no "official" rule on retraining.

Nope not allowed to use any 3rd party books either...just Pathfinder with a chance that Dragon stuff might be allowed on individual basis.


Two levels of Monk (Master of Many Styles) so you can take style feats with your monk bonus feats without meeting prereqs.

Kirin Style, Kirin Strike.

As a MoMS you can pick other style feats you like as well and apply 2 styles together.


Going to bring this back because I thought about doing this for a new character.

This is what i was thinking for a level 12, as our campaign has another 1-3 levels in it.

Monk3/Witch9 (future into witch)
Race - Human

Benefits of Monk3
- Evasion
- Deflect Arrows
- Fort/Ref/Will Saves
- Combat Maneuver Bonus
- 10ft speed bonus

More mobility and higher saves, and blocking 1 arrow a round - saves my life. With 'Magical Knack' only the hex's suffer too much. While i agree it's not the most efficient, it might work and give more life protection - i'm hoping.

side note,
I might go full witch in the end, but i'd like to have a few options.


I usually find Deflect Arrows much less useful than I expect it to be. If you know your DM well and know he will use archers often, you can just burn two feats to get it. Casters have plenty of non-essential feat slots.


Pathfinder Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I took Deflect Arrows at 3rd lvl....now i am 9th....never used the feat.

I recommend you pick something more useful like Extra Hex.


If ur wanting a lil bit of protection, there is a cloth chest piece witches can wear that will net them 4ac. Im of the opionion it stacks with mage armor but its been awhile since ive seen it in the UE or UM book.


Redneckdevil wrote:
If ur wanting a lil bit of protection, there is a cloth chest piece witches can wear that will net them 4ac. Im of the opionion it stacks with mage armor but its been awhile since ive seen it in the UE or UM book.

You may be thinking of the Corset of Dire Witchcraft, which is a very useful witch item but is an armour bonus, and therefore wouldn't stack with Mage Armour.

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