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Core Race RP Discrepancy


Advanced Race Guide Playtest


I am very new to the boards, apologies in advance if this is a repost!

I was actually in the process of creating and balancing a race within our campaign group when someone pointed out that the race creation playtest had come out.

I downloaded it, but they pointed out something I would also agree is confusing. In the core race examples at the end of the material, you see something like Gnome Magic which comes with various benefits, including 4 spell-like abilities; dancing lights, ghost sound, prestidigitation, and speak with animals.

Assuming for the sake of argument that all of these spell-like abilities are level 0 spells, that should still be 4 RP. And yet in the breakdown for gnomes, this only accounts for 1 RP. I was wondering if anyone could explain / account for this discrepancy? Because as it stands now, I think that kind of makes at least that magical racial ability broken.


Such a n00b, replying to my own post. As an addendum, there is another thing which is confusing: When you choose a spell as a spell-like ability, the RP cost is based on the spell level. (With, of cource, the restriction of level 2 or lower spells available to select.)

But what if multiple casters get this spell at different levels? What rule of thumb would you use to determine the cost? The lowest spell level listed, the highest? It's not really elaborated on in that eventuality, but I'm sure it's important.

Jato Jay wrote:

I am very new to the boards, apologies in advance if this is a repost!

I was actually in the process of creating and balancing a race within our campaign group when someone pointed out that the race creation playtest had come out.

I downloaded it, but they pointed out something I would also agree is confusing. In the core race examples at the end of the material, you see something like Gnome Magic which comes with various benefits, including 4 spell-like abilities; dancing lights, ghost sound, prestidigitation, and speak with animals.

Assuming for the sake of argument that all of these spell-like abilities are level 0 spells, that should still be 4 RP. And yet in the breakdown for gnomes, this only accounts for 1 RP. I was wondering if anyone could explain / account for this discrepancy? Because as it stands now, I think that kind of makes at least that magical racial ability broken.


bestiary wrote:
...Some spell-like abilities duplicate spells that work differently when cast by characters of different classes. A monster's spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order.


I don't have the advanced player's guide so I can't answer the first question.


The race points are being tabulated to make all the core races come out at the same point value, not to accurately rate what all of their racial features are actually "worth." Pretending that the core races are all equal is more important, apparently.

Don't expect balanced or sensible results. I expect a train wreck.


StreamOfTheSky wrote:
Don't expect balanced or sensible results. I expect a train wreck.

And I just can't look away...


I thought that when the board united(which almost never happens) against that idea they would keep their word and not use the artificial race point method that pretends all core races are 10's. I am so disappointed.


wraithstrike wrote:
I thought that when the board united(which almost never happens) against that idea they would keep their word and not use the artificial race point method that pretends all core races are 10's. I am so disappointed.

I think he's still using the playtest version. I don't think that the full product is out yet.


Thanks for the assistance!

concerro wrote:
bestiary wrote:
...Some spell-like abilities duplicate spells that work differently when cast by characters of different classes. A monster's spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order.


I am using the playtest version. The Advanced Race Guide doesn't come out until... June? But I wanted to give it a go anyway and see how what I had so far transfered over. I am kind of disappointed thus far, as from what I can see it definitely grants special privileges to the core races. =(

However, I suppose there's always room for improvement. The other thing that isn't really addressed is race-specific feats. But I suppose there isn't a good way to go about that, since a feat wouldn't need to be restricted in the same rigid way that racial traits or bonuses are.

HappyDaze wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
I thought that when the board united(which almost never happens) against that idea they would keep their word and not use the artificial race point method that pretends all core races are 10's. I am so disappointed.
I think he's still using the playtest version. I don't think that the full product is out yet.


The core races are not equally strong. And the writers have a proven record of piling bad decision on top of bad decision and call it intentional, rather than admit and possibly change the original bad decision.


HappyDaze wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
I thought that when the board united(which almost never happens) against that idea they would keep their word and not use the artificial race point method that pretends all core races are 10's. I am so disappointed.
I think he's still using the playtest version. I don't think that the full product is out yet.

Ok. I am not disappointed then, at least not at this book.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber
Rasmus Wagner wrote:
The core races are not equally strong. And the writers have a proven record of piling bad decision on top of bad decision and call it intentional, rather than admit and possibly change the original bad decision.

Do you want a kleenex to wipe that acid that's left on the floor after your posts?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Jato Jay wrote:
Assuming for the sake of argument that all of these spell-like abilities are level 0 spells, that should still be 4 RP.

I'm confused - where does it say in the Advanced Race Guide Playtest that a 0-level spell like ability costs 1 RP? Because that seems like an awful lot for each once-per-day cantrip to cost 1/10th the race's total.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Jato Jay wrote:
When you choose a spell as a spell-like ability, the RP cost is based on the spell level. (With, of cource, the restriction of level 2 or lower spells available to select.)

This too confuses me - I don't see this statement anywhere in the document.


HappyDaze wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
I thought that when the board united(which almost never happens) against that idea they would keep their word and not use the artificial race point method that pretends all core races are 10's. I am so disappointed.
I think he's still using the playtest version. I don't think that the full product is out yet.

I have not looked at the playtest stuff in a long time. If they have indeed changed their minds to give up on the whole "everyone has 10 race points!" thing, then I'd be glad, and happy to retract my statement.


To clarify, I am speaking in regards to the race creation playtest supplement which will be included in the Advanced Race Guide. The section I am referring to is on page 11 of that content (downloadable form this site at the following link:http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lcp6&source=rss)

"Spell-Like Ability (Variable, see special): Prerequisites: None; Benefit: Choose a 2nd-level or lower spell that does not attack a creature or that deals damage. Members of this race can use this spell as a spell-like ability 1/day. The caster level of the spell is equal to the character level of the user. Special: This ability costs as many RP as the
level of the spell chosen (except for 0-level spells, which cost 1 RP). This ability can be taken up to three times. Each time it is taken, the race gains another spell or the ability to cast a spell already chosen once more per day."

EDIT: Please disregard my response below, I re-read it and I was wrong. But still, that means that lvl 0 = 1 RP, lvl 1 = 1 RP, and lvl 2 = 2 RP.

[So the way this is written, you may only choose spells level 2 or lower, with the RP cost N+1. So lvl 0 = 1 RP, lvl 1 = 2 RP, and lvl 2 = 3 RP.]

Thanis Kartaleon wrote:
Jato Jay wrote:
Assuming for the sake of argument that all of these spell-like abilities are level 0 spells, that should still be 4 RP.
I'm confused - where does it say in the Advanced Race Guide Playtest that a 0-level spell like ability costs 1 RP? Because that seems like an awful lot for each once-per-day cantrip to cost 1/10th the race's total.


Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jato Jay wrote:

To clarify, I am speaking in regards to the race creation playtest supplement which will be included in the Advanced Race Guide. The section I am referring to is on page 11 of that content (downloadable form this site at the following link)

Advanced Race Guide Playtest wrote:

"Spell-Like Ability (Variable, see special): Prerequisites: None; Benefit: Choose a 2nd-level or lower spell that does not attack a creature or that deals damage. Members of this race can use this spell as a spell-like ability 1/day. The caster level of the spell is equal to the character level of the user. Special: This ability costs as many RP as the

level of the spell chosen (except for 0-level spells, which cost 1 RP). This ability can be taken up to three times. Each time it is taken, the race gains another spell or the ability to cast a spell already chosen once more per day."

EDIT: Please disregard my response below, I re-read it and I was wrong. But still, that means that lvl 0 = 1 RP, lvl 1 = 1 RP, and lvl 2 = 2 RP.

[So the way this is written, you may only choose spells level 2 or lower, with the RP cost N+1. So lvl 0 = 1 RP, lvl 1 = 2 RP, and lvl 2 = 3 RP.]

Thanis Kartaleon wrote:
Jato Jay wrote:
Assuming for the sake of argument that all of these spell-like abilities are level 0 spells, that should still be 4 RP.
I'm confused - where does it say in the Advanced Race Guide Playtest that a 0-level spell like ability costs 1 RP? Because that seems like an awful lot for each once-per-day cantrip to cost 1/10th the race's total.

Clearly, gnomes are OP and get 4 for the price of 1. Hopefully this is something that will get worked out in the final release version, otherwise...good luck having even cantrips for a new race you want to create.

Oh, and the awkward limitations on starting ability scores was also weird and didn't allow a lot of flexibility, even if it doesn't matter too much in the long run.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

Gorbacz wrote:
Rasmus Wagner wrote:
The core races are not equally strong. And the writers have a proven record of piling bad decision on top of bad decision and call it intentional, rather than admit and possibly change the original bad decision.
Do you want a kleenex to wipe that acid that's left on the floor after your posts?

That doesn't mean that he is wrong.


Jason Buhlman mentions in his interview in Know Direction that the core races aren't assumed to have the same amount of RP any longer.

I think he said the dwarves come out with the most at eleven points.

Edit: Here is a link to the show if you're interested.


Pathfinder Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Hopefully they also gave up on everything costing at least one point! Fractional points would help with some of these things (like cantrips as SLAs).


Thanks for the link! This may answer some of my questions.

Jam412 wrote:

Jason Buhlman mentions in his interview in Know Direction that the core races aren't assumed to have the same amount of RP any longer.

I think he said the dwarves come out with the most at eleven points.

Edit: Here is a link to the show if you're interested.


Jam412 wrote:

Jason Buhlman mentions in his interview in Know Direction that the core races aren't assumed to have the same amount of RP any longer.

I think he said the dwarves come out with the most at eleven points.

Edit: Here is a link to the show if you're interested.

I'm genuinely happy to hear that.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I think they should've increased what points represent, so that the "base" assumption they started out with (and have since nixed) would be they were worth 20 points. Much more granularity there, and you can have nice integers rather than fractions.


Cheapy wrote:
I think they should've increased what points represent, so that the "base" assumption they started out with (and have since nixed) would be they were worth 20 points. Much more granularity there, and you can have nice integers rather than fractions.

But fractions are fun for everyone! Plus it gives you an excuse to teach children both pathfinder and math at the same time bwahahaha.

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