I was wondering what sort of restrictions are placed on mounts in regards to Spider Climb. The PFS group I game with has a couple members interested in halfing/gnome mounts, and it was mentioned that Spider Climb could be used on the mount to overcome obstacles (vertical ascents, for example).

The subject can climb and travel on vertical surfaces or even traverse ceilings as well as a spider does. The affected creature must have its hands free to climb in this manner. The subject gains a climb speed of 20 feet and a +8 racial bonus on Climb skill checks; furthermore, it need not make Climb checks to traverse a vertical or horizontal surface (even upside down). A spider climbing creature retains its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) while climbing, and opponents get no special bonus to their attacks against it. It cannot, however, use the run action while climbing.

The rules seem to indicate that the creature must have its "hands free", but mounts don't have "hands". Should I assume that if a creature, such as a wolf, has its paws free then it can spider climb?

Furthermore, it seems unlikely that a mount would even have the foggiest notion that it could climb walls as a result of the spell. Should a handle animal check of some sort be necessary to coax your mount onto a vertical surface?

I'm not a huge fan of having mounts in dungeons in the first place (personal preference beyond anything else), but I would like know how to properly handle them when they are in there.

Also, I apologize if this question has been answered elsewhere. I'm still a bit of a rookie in regards to the messageboards and Pathfinder in general.

I personally would not have a problem with it, though it would definitely require a Handle Animal check.

How is the rider planning on staying in the saddle when his mount is upside down? That's my question :P

How is the rider planning on staying in the saddle when his mount is upside down? That's my question :P

Strap himself in

Soveriegn glue.

Cast spiderclimb on himself and stick to the saddle.

And the same way the halfling monk can wrestle a giant red dragon to the ground. Cinematic license with physics.

Put out a carrot and you get get a donkey to follow you pretty much anywhere.

Although I know of no official ruling on this, I can certainly say that it would at least fall under the "pushing" rules for the Handle Animal skill. I can't imagine ever actually training a mount to do this. Sure, they teach dogs how to water ski, bu that's them just standing there, not hanging upside-down from the ceiling.

In regard to Spider climbing mounts

As a rule of thumb - if you need to ask here, then expect table variation on the issue. After all - you and your group had time to think about it, look up the Rulebook - and still didn't come up with an unequivocal answer.
A GM at a table who gets surprised by it can act in a way different to what you are used - either more generous or flat out saying no. Nothing wrong with you making a decision for your table. After all - you are the GM - this is your responsibility. Just warn the players that this is a grey area and they should not expect every other GM to rule in the same way. Provided they accept this there shouldn't be an issue however you rule - assuming you did the best to come up with a sensible ruling.

Possible issues I see:
Can mounts spider climb - I would say yes, but expect some rare GMs to be not happy with it.
Animal Handling - a lot of GMs will likely forget it. The once who remember it will likely ask for a check. I would personally base it on riding checks into melee as it is also a stressful situation.
Rider staying in the saddle - expect GMs to flat out say the rider falls out. Especially if they are upside down. Don't expect them to accept custom saddles or harness. These are conceivable but they don't exist in any Rulebook. A GM who lets the rider drop might likely not allow such a saddle as well. You could alternatively say the rider just holds on but needs both free hands while doing so and is flat footed.
Second spider climb for the rider - this could mitigate the issue with the saddle.
Fighting while on the mount. I would allow this while upside down, while the rider has a second spider climb on him and while the mount is stationary. So you are pretty helpless while on the wall.

I surely forget something. So as I said at the beginning - nothing wrong with you and your players to decide on a way forward if it is more common. I would strongly discourage a player who bases his build on the spider climbing mount. Unless he only plays in your group he eventually will feel grief when a GM rules differently.

As long as this is understood - go ahead. If you expect a PFS wide ruling and zero table variation as it should be done the way your players think it works - strongly discourage it.

Oh, also note that Spiderclimb is self only. Druids and Summoners can cast it on their companions, but other classes are probably out of luck.

Oh, also note that Spiderclimb is self only. Druids and Summoners can cast it on their companions, but other classes are probably out of luck.

Has there been an errata?

Just checking my CRB (1st printing) and target is creature touched. I also seem to remember potions of spider climb which would be illigeal if the target it self only.

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Oh, also note that Spiderclimb is self only. Druids and Summoners can cast it on their companions, but other classes are probably out of luck.

Has there been an errata?

Just checking my CRB (1st printing) and target is creature touched. I also seem to remember potions of spider climb which would be illigeal if the target it self only.

Drat.. you're right. what spell was i thinking of?

Spider climbing mounts for everyone!

There is even a communal spider climb spell, so the druid in question could cast it on himself and his companion with one slot. In my opinion, the distinction between hands and paws or hooves is silly. Mounts should definitely be able to make use of a spell that requires 'vestigial limbs' to be 'unoccupied'.

I have no problem with the spider climbing mount.

I'd say it would require a Push Handle Animal check, as this is not a trick, and is not natural for the animal (in a home campaign, I might allow persistent use of this to mitigate the need for a push, or even allow a custom trick... but this is PFS, so none of that here).

I'd say the Rider would need spider climb to stay in the saddle. However, if they did use spider climb to stay in the saddle, they couldn't attack, as they need their hands free. I believe slippers of spider climb are a different breed and only need you to use your feet.

Alternatively, if they spend a full round tying themselves to the mount, I'd allow that, but then they'd be flat footed.

Thanks for the feedback on this everyone! I think as of right now I'm leaning towards:

1) A DC25 Push Handle Animal check to get the mount to go up the wall solo; perhaps higher if the wall is rough and uneven.

2) Some sort of magical or physical assistance for the rider to stay in the saddle while vertical, or one helluva Ride check (30+). I may also enforce some sort of strength check for the mount, as the weight distribution would be vastly different than what it is used to.

3) No upside down riding. It is my thought that the added weight of a rider would make it too difficult for the mount. I don't see this coming up too often anyways.

Since there are no specific rules for this, I guess it really is up to the GM's discretion.

Handle Animal to push the mount to do this because PFS mounts aren't used to doing this. DCs would vary depending on conditions.

Ride checks to stay in saddle assuming the rider is just using skill + normal straps. DCs would vary depending on conditions.

"Spider-horse, Spider-horse. Does whatever a Spider-Horse does.
Can he swing from web? No he can't; he's a horse."

This was the inevitable song being sung at our table when the party was contemplating raiding a keep by riding their mounts up and down the keep's walls via spider climb spells.

Edit: I forgot to mention that the druid named her horse Sleipnir; which is yet another reason we periodically sing the Spider-horse song.

Handle Animal to push the mount to do this because PFS mounts aren't used to doing this. DCs would vary depending on conditions.

Ride checks to stay in saddle assuming the rider is just using skill + normal straps. DCs would vary depending on conditions.

Nah, I don't think we need something like a push for this. You just have to trick your animal.

Step 1) Train animal to fetch.

Step 2) Cast spider climb on animal.

Step 3) Throw a sticky ball at the wall above its jump height and command it to fetch. It's got to try at least, and if it puts a hoof or a paw on the wall it'll stick and then make some ordinary and very easy climb checks, because climb is a class skill for an animal.

Step 4) Give it a sugar cube/doggy treat.

EDIT: To stay in the saddle, I would say ride/climb check or sovereign glue. There's no need for him to be flat-footed if he's making his checks.

"Spider-horse, Spider-horse. Does whatever a Spider-Horse does.

Can he swing from web? No he can't; he's a horse."

\

of course

Ambrus wrote:

"Spider-horse, Spider-horse. Does whatever a Spider-Horse does.

Can he swing from web? No he can't; he's a horse."

\

of course

Mr. Ed.

Nah, I don't think we need something like a push for this. You just have to trick your animal.

I diagree. Just cause your mount may realize his foot is sticking to the wall does not mean that it is intelligent enough to realize that all of its feet will, or that the stickiness would be great enough to hold its weight when it tries to move up the wall.

Handle Animal Push definitely required. Other than that, I have no problem with letting a player do this.

Nah, I don't think we need something like a push for this. You just have to trick your animal.

I am in agreement with godsDMit on this one. The animal does not realize that it is able to climb the wall, and could not be coaxed up as normal. Even if it did figure out that it's feet were sticky, it is a completely different form of movement than what it is used to.

Step 3) Throw a sticky ball at the wall above its jump height and command it to fetch. It's got to try at least, and if it puts a hoof or a paw on the wall it'll stick and then make some ordinary and very easy climb checks, because climb is a class skill for an animal.

In this situation, I would be inclined to give the animal a climb check with a +8 modifier. This is the bonus described in the Spider Climb spell description, and would not require the mount to learn a new type of movement.

The subject can climb and travel on vertical surfaces or even traverse ceilings as well as a spider does. The affected creature must have its hands free to climb in this manner. The subject gains a climb speed of 20 feet and a +8 racial bonus on Climb skill checks; furthermore, it need not make Climb checks to traverse a vertical or horizontal surface (even upside down). A spider climbing creature retains its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) while climbing, and opponents get no special bonus to their attacks against it. It cannot, however, use the run action while climbing.

In my mind, the mount would be scrambling on the wall to climb up towards the aforementioned "treat". He wouldn't gain the full bonus of the Spider Climb because he doesn't know how it works, but he would get a climb bonus because his paws/hooves/feet are sticky.

Just a thought: how would speak with animals or share language factor into this?

Hmm, we seem to be mostly in agreement that Spider Climb would let the rider stay in the saddle. But Spider Climb doesn't actually do that.

Spider Climb: The subject can climb and travel on vertical surfaces or even traverse ceilings as well as a spider does. The affected creature must have its hands free to climb in this manner. The subject gains a climb speed of 20 feet and a +8 racial bonus on Climb skill checks; furthermore, it need not make Climb checks to traverse a vertical or horizontal surface (even upside down). A spider climbing creature retains its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) while climbing, and opponents get no special bonus to their attacks against it. It cannot, however, use the run action while climbing.

Unless a saddle is considered a "surface" in which case you should be able to spider climb up a dragon, the spell would not keep you in the saddle. Also, it lets your hands help climb, not your butt. So sitting for the duration would do nothing, as the whole "spidery" action would be coming from your hands/feet as I understand it.

If there was "Spider Climb, butt" we could work with that spell, but I would rule that this spell doesn't keep you in your saddle. Otherwise you could cast it and be nearly immune to dismounts of any kind. As has been mentioned, Sovereign Glue is another route, but personally I don't have any characters that would be OK with slathering glue on their rear end and then affixing it permanently to a saddle. Seems like a huge amount of work to just cross a chasm, or attack a creature on the ceiling. That's like three rounds that could have been spent firing your bow.

Soider climb isn't going to keep you in a saddle while the mount is climbing up a wall or across a ceiling.

An exotic saddle is probably what you are looking for if you want a saddle to hold you in place while your mount spider climbs.

Hrmm, sovereign glue + spider climb?

Just have your armour attached to the saddle and get into your saddle every day.

Actually that sounds awful I don't know why anyone would do that.

Also, it lets your hands help climb, not your butt. So sitting for the duration would do nothing, as the whole "spidery" action would be coming from your hands/feet as I understand it.

Unless you're standing on saddle, which isn't an uncommon practice in horseriding cultures. It would require a high DC riding check, but it could be worked into the game.

To add on to my previous post:

What would be the required Int score, Knowledge Engineering and Craft skills to manufacture a specialized saddle to ride a spider climbing mount? And the DC check to ride it?

Just in case you havent noticed, this post is in the Pathfinder Society organized play section of the boards, so most responses you would get would be for that.

If you want a PFS answer, then you cannot craft a saddle. The regularly priced 'exotic saddle' would probably do well enough, though depending on the situation, I might call for a Ride check to stay in, unless you also specifically tied or glued yourself into the thing.

If you mean for a home game, than I wouldnt think it would cost too much more than the regular exotic saddle price to say that you had made one with some custom harness that allows you to stay in the saddle easily even while your mount is climbing vertically or upsidedown. But then, I'm not your GM...as far as I know...so it would be up to them. :/

Hope that helps. :)

To add on to my previous post:

What would be the required Int score, Knowledge Engineering and Craft skills to manufacture a specialized saddle to ride a spider climbing mount? And the DC check to ride it?

Mike Brock already stated all you needed was an exotic saddle to handle this situation. He's the campaign organizer, so that issue is solved. You cannot manufacture anything in PFS, so you cannot make it yourself, but you can buy one.

If an AC didn't have spider climb naturally, you you probably will be required to push the animal, which is a move action.

There is precendence in allowing a trick to cover teaching an AC how to move while under an unusual spell like spider climb. Looking under air walk, the last paragraph says:

You can cast air walk on a specially trained mount so it can be ridden through the air. You can train a mount to move with the aid of air walk (counts as a trick; see Handle Animal skill) with 1 week of work and a DC 25 Handle Animal check.

Clearly, the list of tricks under Handle Animal is not intended to be all inclusive. Unfortunately, this paragraph was not included under the spider climb spell description, but it seems like a logical extension.

why could you not use a trick for an animal companion? after all, druid animal companions eventually get more tricks than are listed under the handle animal skill. i don't see an issue with teaching an animal to be ok with walking on a wall, or flying.

i have a sylvan sorcerer in pfs who has this issue, so many tricks my lion gets, plus having an int of 3, i don't think it is that big of a stretch to use those extra tricks on him being ok with a certain spell cast on him. the handle animal skill says

Possible tricks (and their associated DCs) include, but are not necessarily limited to, the following:....

If an AC didn't have spider climb naturally, you will be required to push the animal, which is a move action.

Unless I am mistaken there are referances to "riding lizards" used by darkland races that climb walls.
.
On this note: if you turn to me at the start of a game and say "my AC and I have trained to use the spell Spider Climb, that I can cast several times a day. I have an exotic saddle for my AC and have taken this into account several times." Then I am most likely not going to see a problem with this. It's PC tactics and I am not being surprised by in in the middle of the game. It may become a "funny scene" when you are trying to drink a potion in the saddle while hanging from the ceiling, but no more than the PC beside you who has never used the spell before today, who seems to be able to stand there and fire a bazillion arrows a round, and never drop a one (or suffer a minus for fireing upside down). And we may chat for a minute or two while I point a few of these problems out to the player and we address this. Outside of the game, ironing out the problems before they pop up in combat.
.
This tactic has been around in the game almost all long as Spider Climb has been on the Druid spell list (maybe a day less). Just because it's new to our group, doesn't mean we should "Judge nerf" it.

Walter Sheppard wrote:

Also, it lets your hands help climb, not your butt. So sitting for the duration would do nothing, as the whole "spidery" action would be coming from your hands/feet as I understand it.

Unless you're standing on saddle, which isn't an uncommon practice in horseriding cultures. It would require a high DC riding check, but it could be worked into the game.

You'd of course have to be hand-standing, which would required a higher DC...

I would say that teaching a trick is a no go. While it does say that the tricks are not limited to those printed in the Core, who sets the DC for teaching a mount to climb on the ceiling? Usually if a rule states that their are other options but does not describe said options then those options don't exist in PFS. For this reason your best bet is to use the push mechanic.

As others have said. The staying in the saddle issue is solved by an exotic saddle. Any saddle for a flying creature is going to have straps to stay in so the same can be said for spider climbing.

why could you not use a trick for an animal companion? after all, druid animal companions eventually get more tricks than are listed under the handle animal skill. i don't see an issue with teaching an animal to be ok with walking on a wall, or flying.

i have a sylvan sorcerer in pfs who has this issue, so many tricks my lion gets, plus having an int of 3, i don't think it is that big of a stretch to use those extra tricks on him being ok with a certain spell cast on him. the handle animal skill says

Handle Animal wrote:

Possible tricks (and their associated DCs) include, but are not necessarily limited to, the following:....

New tricks require mechanics. Because it requires a GM to basically create the rules for something that doesn’t already exist, you can’t create it in PFS. If the trick is listed somewhere, as mentioned with the Air Walk spell above, the you may take it.

asthyril wrote:

why could you not use a trick for an animal companion? after all, druid animal companions eventually get more tricks than are listed under the handle animal skill. i don't see an issue with teaching an animal to be ok with walking on a wall, or flying.

i have a sylvan sorcerer in pfs who has this issue, so many tricks my lion gets, plus having an int of 3, i don't think it is that big of a stretch to use those extra tricks on him being ok with a certain spell cast on him. the handle animal skill says

Handle Animal wrote:

Possible tricks (and their associated DCs) include, but are not necessarily limited to, the following:....

New tricks require mechanics. Because it requires a GM to basically create the rules for something that doesn’t already exist, you can’t create it in PFS. If the trick is listed somewhere, as mentioned with the Air Walk spell above, the you may take it.

poor michael, having to change your mind mid post and changing messages, i apologize for making your monday more complicated than it has to be :)

But I would like to ask if you could mention this to the powers-that-be at paizo, or at least put a post-it note on the monitor of the person in charge of Pathfinder Player Companion: Animal Archive (PFRPG), if they could put something like this(using tricks for specific spells) in there before it comes out in January.

I would also like to personally thank you for all your hard work on coordinating a campaign with this many people. I think of it similar to coordinating 40 person raids in W.o.W. but instead of herding 40 cats, you're herding thousands.

Good job, sir.

why could you not use a trick for an animal companion? after all, druid animal companions eventually get more tricks than are listed under the handle animal skill. i don't see an issue with teaching an animal to be ok with walking on a wall, or flying.

i have a sylvan sorcerer in pfs who has this issue, so many tricks my lion gets, plus having an int of 3, i don't think it is that big of a stretch to use those extra tricks on him being ok with a certain spell cast on him. the handle animal skill says

Handle Animal wrote:

Possible tricks (and their associated DCs) include, but are not necessarily limited to, the following:....

It isn't possible by RAW that im aware to have more tricks as there are in the book. You might want to check out if you have the right number.

An animal of int 2 (or higher !) knows 6 tricks. Some people misinterpret Int*3 as you have only 3 tricks for Int 1.
A Druid companion for a level 20 Druid gets 6 bonus tricks.

That makes a total of 13 tricks at level 20 (well - already level 18 - but still the same number at 13).

There are 12 tricks in CRB - 13 if you count attack twice as you need it a second time to attack undead and other unnatural enemies.

I'm happy to be proven wrong - but last time I checked and made the numbers there were enough tricks for a level 20 Druid in the book.

poor michael, having to change your mind mid post and changing messages, i apologize for making your monday more complicated than it has to be :)

But I would like to ask if you could mention this to the powers-that-be at paizo, or at least put a post-it note on the monitor of the person in charge of Pathfinder Player Companion: Animal Archive (PFRPG), if they could put something like this(using tricks for specific spells) in there before it comes out in January.

I would also like to personally thank you for all your hard work on coordinating a campaign with this many people. I think of it similar to coordinating 40 person raids in W.o.W. but instead of herding 40 cats, you're herding thousands.

Good job, sir.

I didnt really change my mind mid post. It just took a few minutes to go through my 4,500+ posts to see how I had ruled in the past and could stay cosistent with those rulings.

I will make sure the design team is aware of the issue.

Actually there is an official ruling that higher INT animal companions get INT*3 tricks, which makes it easy to quickly run out of tricks and have leftover "trick points". It makes sense to want to find new things to spend them on.

Actually there is an official ruling that higher INT animal companions get INT*3 tricks, which makes it easy to quickly run out of tricks and have leftover "trick points". It makes sense to want to find new things to spend them on.

Can you link to that ruling?

Because this would indeed cause leftover tricks - especially if you raise int above 3.

The Great Rinaldo! wrote:

Actually there is an official ruling that higher INT animal companions get INT*3 tricks, which makes it easy to quickly run out of tricks and have leftover "trick points". It makes sense to want to find new things to spend them on.

Can you link to that ruling?

Because this would indeed cause leftover tricks - especially if you raise int above 3.

Pathfinder Society FAQ: Can I improve my companion’s Intelligence to 3 or higher and give it weapon feats?

And not leftover tricks, but leftover trick slots.

Unless I am mistaken there are referances to "riding lizards" used by darkland races that climb walls.

The Giant Gecko is clearly at least one of them. http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary3/lizard.html

Perfect for all the ceiling hanging halflings amongst us.

The faq

An animal may learn 3 additional tricks per point of Intelligence above 2.

Also from the Monkey See Monkey Do blog post commentary

The rules are silent on the second issue, but I think a GM could safely assume that an animal can learn 3 extra tricks for each point of Int above 2 (following the pattern).

nosig wrote:

Unless I am mistaken there are referances to "riding lizards" used by darkland races that climb walls.

The Giant Gecko is clearly at least one of them. http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary3/lizard.html

Perfect for all the ceiling hanging halflings amongst us.

Pinata!