The transcript I read said, "White, black, or Hispanic?" It is the same order that I use when requesting suspect descriptions, which is why I made note of it.
The transcript I read said, "White, black, or Hispanic?" It is the same order that I use when requesting suspect descriptions, which is why I made note of it.
Listening to the recording, I didn't catch the "white" part.
It may be that woman's perspective that she was ignored. However, until we see the full report, we cannot make that determination. It is equally possible (even likely, given the chaos of a murder scene) that they were prioritizing the interviews, which she took as being blown off.
I would suggest caution before basically concocting a conspiracy or accusing the officers of corruption. Again, if they were so intent on not charging Zimmerman, why did they try to charge Zimmerman?
The simple, unglamorous answer is usually the right one.
She made several calls to the station before they took her statement which was over a couple of days at least IIRC. It does not take that long to do a statement.
From what I understand a certain detective tried to have him charged, but he got shut down. I am not implying the entire department was in on it, but I considering what happened, and the area it happened it I doubt it was a coincidence.
The lead detective tried to charge him. It's not a democracy. He was "shut down" by the State's Attorney, not by popular vote in the department or pressure from the command staff.
From the article you linked, I got the impression that they took a preliminary statement from her, then she asked the officers on-scene to give a more in-depth statement then and there.
That is somewhat correct. I wish I could find those other 3 videos, but from the way I remember her describing it they never contacted her again, and she was silent about it at first, but when she finally decided to speak up she felt like she was blown off.
Since the case was on the way to being closed at best I am guessing that is why they never got back to her, but they should have done that before trying to close the case.
His nose is still not broken going by the pic, but at least it does show possible signs of a struggle. I still think Zimmerman is being put on trial* for the errors of the PD also.
In short even if he is innocent, which I don't think he is, I am almost sure he will serve time.
*I am not saying anything has been decided. I am saying a lot of people want to see someone punished for this.
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His nose is still not broken going by the pic, but at least it does show possible signs of a struggle. I still think Zimmerman is being put on trial* for the errors of the PD also.
Most definitely. Or more accurately, if the lead detective's story pans out, the errors of the initial prosecutor. The irony is that at this point by not charging Zimmerman immediately they have probably screwed him out of a fair trial because of the narrative the media is pushing (whether it is true or not Zimmerman deserves a fair trial).
I think the events were probably something like this:
1. Zimmerman follows Trayvon in his truck.
2. Calls 911.
3. Trayvon tells GF that someone is following him. She tells him to run and he, not wanting to sound like a coward, says that he will walk fast to calm her down. He heads down the walkway behind the homes.
4. Zimmerman, now unable to pursue by vehicle, exits the vehicle. This is when we hear him breathing hard and when the 911 dispatcher advises him not to pursue.
5. Zimmerman runs up behind Trayvon, passes him, swings around. From what the GF says, she heard Trayvon say "why are you following me?" and Zimmerman respond "what are you doing here" and then the headset falls.
6. I think Zimmerman tried to manhandle Trayvon to keep him from running which knocked off the headset, Trayvon fought back possibly screaming for help (if the audio forensic experts are to be believed), managed to actually injure Zimmerman in the process, and Zimmerman realizing he bit off more than he could chew shot and killed Trayvon.
This is, of course, my opinion.
Again, there is no evidence from the video that his nose is broken, this is not the same as there is evidence it is not broken. Between the time when it stops bleeding is cleaned up and to the time when it starts bruising visibly there may be a time when it is not immediately obvious that it is broken. This could be the case here.
Also, there maybe some differences between a technical nose break/fracture and what many of us consider a "true" nose break. If medical records are produced, I foresee people arguing that what the records show is not a "true" break, even though it might technically be one. These are the games people play in order to maintain their own paradigm.
Hnn. Interesting thoughts, as ever.
There is also a nyt article that goes into some details. Will link when not at work.
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Again, there is no evidence from the video that his nose is broken, this is not the same as there is evidence it is not broken. Between the time when it stops bleeding is cleaned up and to the time when it starts bruising visibly there may be a time when it is not immediately obvious that it is broken. This could be the case here.
Also, there maybe some differences between a technical nose break/fracture and what many of us consider a "true" nose break. If medical records are produced, I foresee people arguing that what the records show is not a "true" break, even though it might technically be one. These are the games people play in order to maintain their own paradigm.
Yes there is no evidence that his nose was broken but from the enhanced ABC video there does appear to be scratches on the back of his head. Apparently the EMTs did not find them to be serious enough to take him to the hospital and canceled the 2nd ambulance.
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Again, there is no evidence from the video that his nose is broken, this is not the same as there is evidence it is not broken. Between the time when it stops bleeding is cleaned up and to the time when it starts bruising visibly there may be a time when it is not immediately obvious that it is broken. This could be the case here.
Also, there maybe some differences between a technical nose break/fracture and what many of us consider a "true" nose break. If medical records are produced, I foresee people arguing that what the records show is not a "true" break, even though it might technically be one. These are the games people play in order to maintain their own paradigm.
And I expect if the records don't show a break, there will be people arguing that doesn't mean anything. Maybe it was "broken", even if it wasn't technically a "true" break. Or that just because it wasn't broken, doesn't mean he wasn't punched in the nose and he didn't think it was broken. Etc. Etc.
These games can be played on both sides of the argument. And there are a lot of idiots on the Internet.
I don't even think it matters whether or not Zimmerman was hurt. Whose to say he didn't assault Martin first in an effort to sit on him until the police arrived and Martin didn't just stand his ground to protect himself?
People are arguing over the wrong things. Was Zimmerman hurt? Probably. I would have hurt him if he tried to grab me. Was Zimmerman racist? Maybe...but more troublesome is "was racism involved in the prosecutor/police decision to not arrest Zimmerman".
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Did younot read the statutes I posted earlier? They are the impediment to prosecution, not some great white conspiracy. The state not only has to present probable cause that Zimmerman Killed Martin (easy enough), it is procedurally barred from moving forward unless it can present probable cause that it was not in self-defense. It is a high (though not insurmountable) bar to prosecution, higher than any other state.
There is no evidence to back up the claims that the investigators ignored evidence or twisted words, or had any reason to. There is evidence that they presented the case for prosecution, but were denied. There is no evidence that Zimmerman's father, a minor judge in another state, called in any favors or would have possibly had any ability to.
It's not a conspiracy. It's a poorly-written law.
I think "conspiracy" is too strong of a word for what most people are talking about. I think what most people are concerned about is that Zimmerman's claim of self defense was pretty much just accepted because it was just another black kid up to no good that was shot and killed. It is more about ingrained racism that gets projected into our institutions of authority. It might not even be conscious racism on the part of the prosecutor/police, meaning, their perceptions are so shaped by the media, by high crime rates among young black men, that this case crossed a desk somewhere and they just accepted the self defense claim at face value. It hasn't been made clear to Martin's family why Zimmerman's claim was accepted when their son does not have a history of violence and would have been acting out of character if his claim were true.
The question most people should be asking, in my opinion, is why this particular shooting and killing is being treated as so much worse than all of the others? In the time since the incident between Martin and Zimmerman, around 400* other murders have been committed with a firearm in this country. Of those, about 380* will have been intraracial crimes with more than 372* of those being instances of black on black violence. Of the ~20* interracial instances, more than 17* were statistically committed by an African-American perpetrator upon a white or Hispanic victim.
So why does this death receive so much attention while these others languish in relative obscurity?
(All of the above numbers were found via The U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics and the latest compiled census statistics)
Because it was one of the 3 out 400 (less than 1%), is so "interesting" because it is so unusually.
And I expect if the records don't show a break,
Any kind of force worth mentioning will show up on a MRI scan for quite some time. Since Martin didn´t have a gun, nor a knife, won´t Zimmermann go to jail , if the autopsy doesn´t find at least bruised knuckles on Martin?
So why does this death receive so much attention while these others languish in relative obscurity?
Because Casey Anthony's been out of the news and Florida needs to get back in the spotlight.
The question most people should be asking, in my opinion, is why this particular shooting and killing is being treated as so much worse than all of the others? In the time since the incident between Martin and Zimmerman, around 400* other murders have been committed with a firearm in this country. Of those, about 380* will have been intraracial crimes with more than 372* of those being instances of black on black violence. Of the ~20* interracial instances, more than 17* were statistically committed by an African-American perpetrator upon a white or Hispanic victim.
Because a Black guy shooting a Black guy is 'business'.
A Black guy shooting a White guy is 'disadvantage and disenfranchisemnt'
A White guy shooting a Black guy is 'White culture racism and a hate crime and part of a bigger picture involving a grand conspiracy supported by the Police etc'.
Oh I agree with you, I was being a bit sarcastic there, but the point is that there are a lot of people with an interest in politicising the matter to meet their own agendas.
There is an industry out there that needs feeding so they can continue to maintain relevance and 'maintain the rage'. There are people out there happy to hijack this as 'racially motivated' as they get their heads on TV and get to 'have a voice'.
Unfortunately they miss the point about what happened here, miss the bigger picture argument about ticking time bombs on the street - or maybe they don't miss it but don't really care because it isn't furthering their pet issue.
Why Zimmerman? Well I ask you, why Kony?
Because this was (at first sight) a neatly packaged + shiny ribbon gift to a bunch of political wannabe's who just loved the idea of a raciallymotivated killing clouded with a corrupt conspiracy.
To me this is about some idiot rolling with a gat looking for trouble, looking so hard he actually managed to BE the trouble, and then killing a minor as a result. This isn't about race. This is about 'stupid', and we can't pass legislation against stupidity.
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The question most people should be asking, in my opinion, is why this particular shooting and killing is being treated as so much worse than all of the others? In the time since the incident between Martin and Zimmerman, around 400* other murders have been committed with a firearm in this country. Of those, about 380* will have been intraracial crimes with more than 372* of those being instances of black on black violence. Of the ~20* interracial instances, more than 17* were statistically committed by an African-American perpetrator upon a white or Hispanic victim.
So why does this death receive so much attention while these others languish in relative obscurity?
(All of the above numbers were found via The U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics and the latest compiled census statistics)
Nobody is asking that question because it is easily answered. In this particular case the shooter was not charged even though he shot an unarmed teenager who wasn't doing anything illegal. It isn't clear as to why he was able to claim self defense when he was acting like a vigilante and his claim to self defense depends only on his own testimony. I have heard your so-called "question" already and quite frankly it is absurd to pretend that this case does not have a distinguishing feature.
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The question most people should be asking, in my opinion, is why this particular shooting and killing is being treated as so much worse than all of the others? In the time since the incident between Martin and Zimmerman, around 400* other murders have been committed with a firearm in this country. Of those, about 380* will have been intraracial crimes with more than 372* of those being instances of black on black violence. Of the ~20* interracial instances, more than 17* were statistically committed by an African-American perpetrator upon a white or Hispanic victim.
So why does this death receive so much attention while these others languish in relative obscurity?
Because this case involved an admitted shooter of a teenage boy who had committed no crime other than allegedly assaulting the armed man who was following him?
Because the shooter was not arrested, despite the recommendation of the homicide investigator? And in fact no further public progress was made on the case until after the case received media attention and in fact after the DOJ announced it's own investigation?
Because, despite having, among other evidence Martin's cellphone, the police did not contact Martin's parents for several days?
Because Martin's parents made a great effort to get the media involved? To push for an arrest and a trial?
Because the Internet works that way sometimes? One appeal goes viral and another doesn't?
Most murders are fairly simple affairs. Domestic disputes. Part of other crimes. Fights between criminals. Crimes of passion. Etc.
Some are immediately followed with an arrest. Some the killer is never identified. Some are clear cases of self defense.This case is unique for many reasons.
But none of those could be it. It has to be a massive conspiracy by the liberal media (which took no notice of it until it had already spread widely on the Internet) to make whites look racist.
Or was there some other point to those numbers?
You beat me to it and with a better response.
Yeah, Comrade Jeff's usually pretty sharp.
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Oh I agree with you, I was being a bit sarcastic there, but the point is that there are a lot of people with an interest in politicising the matter to meet their own agendas.
There is an industry out there that needs feeding so they can continue to maintain relevance and 'maintain the rage'. There are people out there happy to hijack this as 'racially motivated' as they get their heads on TV and get to 'have a voice'.
Unfortunately they miss the point about what happened here, miss the bigger picture argument about ticking time bombs on the street - or maybe they don't miss it but don't really care because it isn't furthering their pet issue.
Why Zimmerman? Well I ask you, why Kony?
Because this was (at first sight) a neatly packaged + shiny ribbon gift to a bunch of political wannabe's who just loved the idea of a raciallymotivated killing clouded with a corrupt conspiracy.
To me this is about some idiot rolling with a gat looking for trouble, looking so hard he actually managed to BE the trouble, and then killing a minor as a result. This isn't about race. This is about 'stupid', and we can't pass legislation against stupidity.
Actually I think you are missing the big picture. The issue about Zimmerman's potential racism really will only serve to incriminate him if his day in court ever comes.
The overall big picture is institutionalized racism. Why did this case just pass over some prosecutor's desk without any real investigation of Zimmerman's claim to probable cause? If that question can't be answered is it really a stretch for people to think that it was due to the prosecutor's perceptions about young black men in America and their propensity to commit crime? That because of this the prosecutor gave it the validity stamp and went on to the next case without batting an eye? There has to be a reason other than "Zimmerman said so". If that reason can't be established it becomes fairly obvious to some what the real reason is.
Also, considering the Travares McGill case in 2005 in Sanford, FL where two guards (both connected to the police department) shot an unarmed black teenager in the back who was just sitting in his car. The guards claimed self defense because they thought Travares was going to run over them. The case was dismissed in court and both men walked free.
So Trayvon was the second innocent unarmed black teenager gunned down in Sanford in which the shooter walked free.
I would argue that a far more insidious form of institutionalized racism is on display here, supported by the statistics I referenced above.
The blatant disregard of the media when it comes to portraying the far more numerous victims of intraracial gun violence, specifically those within the black community, is far more insidious than anything perpetrated by the Sanford P.D. or Mr. Zimmerman. Each of those victims deserves to be humanized and placed under the same sort of spotlight that Trayvon Martin is being posthumously granted at this time.
By not doing so, and callously regulating nearly all (95%+) victims of firearm murder to the back pages or 10-second, nameless blurbs, the media drastically skews the public eye directly away from a major societal issue that, if addressed and given significant attention, could cause a monumental shift in racial perceptions and race relations in this country.
While I doubt that anyone with any sense could possibly argue that what happened to Trayvon Martin is not a tragedy, I am, as pretty much everyone commenting on the story is, ignorant of all of the facts in this case. It is not for me to decide George Zimmerman's guilt or innocence, but as far as coverage of these types of events goes, the media is assuredly guilty, not of making whites look racist (as suggested by thejeff) but of ignoring and downplaying events that could help put a great many things in perspective.
In many ways, this sort of selective journalism is as much an entrenched part of institutionalized racism as the manner in which the Sanford P.D. treated this case. I will never understand why it is that, as far as the media is concerned, the death of a young black man only seems to matter if it was perpetrated by a non-black person.
In many ways, this sort of selective journalism is as much an entrenched part of institutionalized racism as the manner in which the Sanford P.D. treated this case. I will never understand why it is that, as far as the media is concerned, the death of a young black man only seems to matter if it was perpetrated by a non-black person.
I think you might be attributing malfeasance to incompetence here. The media attracts viewers, and either viewers ARE attracted to a story or the prevailing wisdom of the media is that viewers are attracted to a story.
Black guy shoots black guy over drug deal gone bad just has no story to it, it doesn't sell. The entire story is in the headline.
You toss in racial issues, stand your ground law, a nepotistic former judge, and a character that can be read as either be a heavily armed KKK Member or the patron saint of Neighborhood defense and you've got drama... and that brings in the viewers/readers.
Please note I am not condoning how the media does it, just trying to explain it.
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I would argue that a far more insidious form of institutionalized racism is on display here, supported by the statistics I referenced above.
The blatant disregard of the media when it comes to portraying the far more numerous victims of intraracial gun violence, specifically those within the black community, is far more insidious than anything perpetrated by the Sanford P.D. or Mr. Zimmerman. Each of those victims deserves to be humanized and placed under the same sort of spotlight that Trayvon Martin is being posthumously granted at this time.
By not doing so, and callously regulating nearly all (95%+) victims of firearm murder to the back pages or 10-second, nameless blurbs, the media drastically skews the public eye directly away from a major societal issue that, if addressed and given significant attention, could cause a monumental shift in racial perceptions and race relations in this country.
While I doubt that anyone with any sense could possibly argue that what happened to Trayvon Martin is not a tragedy, I am, as pretty much everyone commenting on the story is, ignorant of all of the facts in this case. It is not for me to decide George Zimmerman's guilt or innocence, but as far as coverage of these types of events goes, the media is assuredly guilty, not of making whites look racist (as suggested by thejeff) but of ignoring and downplaying events that could help put a great many things in perspective.
In many ways, this sort of selective journalism is as much an entrenched part of institutionalized racism as the manner in which the Sanford P.D. treated this case. I will never understand why it is that, as far as the media is concerned, the death of a young black man only seems to matter if it was perpetrated by a non-black person.
Well I agree with most of this. But if you can't even get justice for a young black teen who was just minding his own business walking home to watch a basketball game, how are you going to get justice for the rest? We are talking about justice for Trayvon, what you are talking about is a deep seeded racism that comes about from the system reinforcing social norms to maintain econcomic race inequality. They have many tools at their disposal - the media is one of them.
In many ways, this sort of selective journalism is as much an entrenched part of institutionalized racism as the manner in which the Sanford P.D. treated this case. I will never understand why it is that, as far as the media is concerned, the death of a young black man only seems to matter if it was perpetrated by a non-black person.I think you might be attributing malfeasance to incompetence here. The media attracts viewers, and either viewers ARE attracted to a story or the prevailing wisdom of the media is that viewers are attracted to a story.
Black guy shoots black guy over drug deal gone bad just has no story to it, it doesn't sell. The entire story is in the headline.
You toss in racial issues, stand your ground law, a nepotistic former judge, and a character that can be read as either be a heavily armed KKK Member or the patron saint of Neighborhood defense and you've got drama... and that brings in the viewers/readers.
Please note I am not condoning how the media does it, just trying to explain it.
The mere fact that you immediately follow "black guy shoots black guy" with "over a drug deal gone bad" more than demonstrates my point. That is a perfect example of a mindset that the media has helped to create regarding the black community and many of the problems within.
The lack of coverage dehumanizes each of these victims, and to many, if not most, of the people outside of their immediate community they end up being automatically classified as a less than desirable object that simply came to the end of its expiration date rather than as a person who was murdered.
If all murder victims were given the Trayvon Martin treatment, then I would argue that this incident would actually stand out even more, but for the right reasons rather than the politicized ones we are being force fed.
The mere fact that you immediately follow "black guy shoots black guy" with "over a drug deal gone bad" more than demonstrates my point. That is a perfect example of a mindset that the media has helped to create regarding the black community and many of the problems within.
The media isn't creating that out of whole cloth.
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I want someone to provide even auess of a narrative which makes sense. Like I pointed out earlier, Zimmerman stopped breathing heavily about 10 seconds after he was told he wasn't needed to follow Martin. So, how did they get back in contact?
Once Trayvon rounded the corner and was heading down the path he probably stopped or slowed down thinking that Zimmerman wouldn't follow him because the path is inaccessible by truck. Zimmerman thinking that Trayvon was probably long gone stopped running and rounded the corner normally and realized Trayvon was still on the pathway just around the corner waiting for Zimmerman to pass by on the road around the corner so he could keep on walking to where he was going.
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Do you believe that Zimmerman stopped running and told the 911 dispatcher, "okay" (both indicators that he didn't intend to keep following Martin), then got out in the rain to go in the direction of Martin?Once Trayvon rounded the corner and was heading down the path he probably stopped or slowed down thinking that Zimmerman wouldn't follow him because the path is inaccessible by truck. Zimmerman thinking that Trayvon was probably long gone stopped running and rounded the corner normally and realized Trayvon was still on the pathway just around the corner waiting for Zimmerman to pass by on the road around the corner so he could keep on walking to where he was going.I want someone to provide even auess of a narrative which makes sense. Like I pointed out earlier, Zimmerman stopped breathing heavily about 10 seconds after he was told he wasn't needed to follow Martin. So, how did they get back in contact?
Here is a map of the area showing the location of Zimmerman's truck and where the body was found:
Once Trayvon rounded the corner he probably slowed down and resumed walking, thinking Zimmerman wouldn't get out of his car. I believe Trayvon lived on the south end of this map. Zimmerman could have caught up to him walking fast around the corner or Zimmerman could have run down to the second entrance to the path between the two buildings slowed down as he rounded the corner to get his composure and then rounding the corner to head Trayvon off.
So we know he got out of the truck, in the rain, and went in the direction of Martin. He was not near his vehicle.
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Interestingly, the first map I saw had a different location for the car and a slightly different one for the body.
(Ignore the "assumed paths")I'm not sure of the origin or credibility of either map, but I'm throwing it out there for comment.
Yeah that is what I pictured could have happened. Zimmerman could have easily cut Martin off especially if Martin slowed back down once he got on the path going down.
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I would just like to add that listening to some kind of music really does not help, this includes banda music that praises druglord or rap music that praises violence and how to treat women poorly. I have noticed how this affects many children and teenagers and needs to change to also help change hispanic and african-american culture that are affected by this stereotyping thinking they are like the guys on the songs.
Once I heard an interview of an hispanic druglord gunmen he was 20 years old and his answer as to why would he do this was to him fairly simple "I rather live the high life, with money and b*** for a couple of years, than working of my life for a pathetic salary and be a nobody, just like (insert druglord here that is praised by X bands)". This also applies to african-american culture by the way. By no means I say this is the majority of hispanic and african-american (I'm hispanic myself) but it does affect usually low-income families.
Unfortunately this helps people form themselves a stereotype/judge african-american and hispanics. That is something might have happened in this case of why Zimmerman was not arrested until things were clear that it was self defense. He is also innocent until proven otherwise.
Like I said before I would think as for all the evidence right now Zimmerman would be free until they gather enough evidence to attempt anything, BUT the family of Martin could go with a civil law suit against the community (which is possible) for not training Zimmerman properly, because he used a firearm, the death of a resident in the hand of a person they assigned as the Cpt of the neighborhood watch, and this is an EASY win for the Martin family.
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Like I said before I would think as for all the evidence right now Zimmerman would be free until they gather enough evidence to attempt anything, BUT the family of Martin could go with a civil law suit against the community (which is possible) for not training Zimmerman properly, because he used a firearm, the death of a resident in the hand of a person they assigned as the Cpt of the neighborhood watch, and this is an EASY win for the Martin family.
They don't want money. They want justice for their son.
What evidence? All we know is that Zimmerman was following a teenager at night, there was a fight, and it ended with Martin dead with a gunshot to the chest. We have Zimmerman's word ONLY that Trayvon started the fight. There is no evidence that this is what happened other than Zimmerman's word. It is just as likely that Zimmerman caught sight of Martin again, and grabbed him to hold him until the police got there not expecting Martin to defend himself. Martin did, and perhaps got the upperhand, and Zimmerman shot him. What hard evidence do we have that it didn't go down that way other than Zimmerman's word?
Trayvon has no criminal record, no known history of violence. George on the other hand has a criminal history with two cases of violence.