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Are gunslingers actually broken?


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion

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Andoran

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

No.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion Subscriber
TriOmegaZero wrote:
No.

Post build or else.

Shadow Lodge

Else what, mouthy?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Maxximilius wrote:


- How the heck are you getting a BAB so high ? A level 12 pistolero double-wielding DB pistols has a BAB of +1/+1/+1/-4/-9 +1/-4/-9 with haste, PBS, deadly aim, double tapping and rapid shot on.
- Where did you find two +5 weapons at level 13 ? >_> Can I have a free balor with my fighter too for DPR calculation ?
- DB weapons shot twice per attack, as if using manyshot on each attack, you don't get two attack rolls per shot - that's the most reasonable interpretation of the rules since it doesn't allow for instantaneous misfire explosion nor nova critical hit.

I said 13, not 12. The starting wealth for a 13 is 140k, +5 pistols are 50k, so thats 100k. a +6 dex belt is 36k, which, assuming a starting dex of 17, 2 racial, and 3 advancements gets you 28. which is a +9.

BAB
13 base + 9 dex + 5 magic + 1 PBS + 1 WF = +29.

Off hand is light, so TWF penalty is -2, bringing you to 27

DB is -4, bringing you to 23 to hit.

As for it letting you take 2 attacks per shot. I've seen it interpreted many ways. I for one don't think you should be able to reload More then a single barrel for free.

Valid point on precise shot, you can drop improved crit for that. Someone link me the character builder you all use, and assuming its free I'll post the build.


Dolomyte wrote:
Maxximilius wrote:


- How the heck are you getting a BAB so high ? A level 12 pistolero double-wielding DB pistols has a BAB of +1/+1/+1/-4/-9 +1/-4/-9 with haste, PBS, deadly aim, double tapping and rapid shot on.
- Where did you find two +5 weapons at level 13 ? >_> Can I have a free balor with my fighter too for DPR calculation ?
- DB weapons shot twice per attack, as if using manyshot on each attack, you don't get two attack rolls per shot - that's the most reasonable interpretation of the rules since it doesn't allow for instantaneous misfire explosion nor nova critical hit.

I said 13, not 12. The starting wealth for a 13 is 140k, +5 pistols are 50k, so thats 100k. a +6 dex belt is 36k, which, assuming a starting dex of 17, 2 racial, and 3 advancements gets you 28. which is a +9.

BAB
13 base + 9 dex + 5 magic + 1 PBS + 1 WF = +29.

Off hand is light, so TWF penalty is -2, bringing you to 27

DB is -4, bringing you to 23 to hit.

As for it letting you take 2 attacks per shot. I've seen it interpreted many ways. I for one don't think you should be able to reload More then a single barrel for free.

Valid point on precise shot, you can drop improved crit for that. Someone link me the character builder you all use, and assuming its free I'll post the build.

Can't you only use, like 1/4 of your wbl on one item?

Andoran

Dolomyte wrote:

I said 13, not 12. The starting wealth for a 13 is 140k, +5 pistols are 50k, so thats 100k. a +6 dex belt is 36k, which, assuming a starting dex of 17, 2 racial, and 3 advancements gets you 28. which is a +9.

BAB
13 base + 9 dex + 5 magic + 1 PBS + 1 WF = +29.

Off hand is light, so TWF penalty is -2, bringing you to 27

DB is -4, bringing you to 23 to hit.

As for it letting you take 2 attacks per shot. I've seen it interpreted many ways. I for one don't think you should be able to reload More then a single barrel for free.

Valid point on precise shot, you can drop improved crit for that. Someone link me the character builder you all use, and assuming its free I'll post the build.

Uh...pistols aren't Light. Therefore they're at -4 to both from that. Additionally, the ability to actually reload the pistols repeatedly is debatable...and definitely requires Weapon Cords and Quick Draw, or it flat-out doesn't work.

Silver Crusade

Dolomyte wrote:
I said 13, not 12. The starting wealth for a 13 is 140k, +5 pistols are 50k, so thats 100k. a +6 dex belt is 36k, which, assuming a starting dex of 17, 2 racial, and 3 advancements gets you 28. which is a +9.

Nice, but I know how to read too. You are also missing the 2350 GP needed to craft two DB pistols, and the 72 GP by round of alchemical cartridges. Just some questions :

- Where is, you know, your armor ?
- What are your saves ?
- What are your HP ?

Your character looks so laughably easily to kill that I couldn't care less about the guy hitting hard, nor would any DM worth it's salt consider it a broken foe.
One-trick pony, cristal-fragile, high damage character required to stay at close range to be efficient ? Priority target. Same level archer fighter enters the game and full attacks once, you die miserably.

Quote:

BAB

13 base + 9 dex + 5 magic + 1 PBS + 1 WF = +29.

Off hand is light

No it isn't. Pistols are one-handed weapons.

Also, I see that you have found a way to put WF in a TWF pistolero build. I'm curious to know what essential feat you sacrificed to make this possible.
Not that WF is in the slightest optimum for a gunslinger...

Silver Crusade

Matt Stich wrote:
Can't you only use, like 1/4 of your wbl on one item?

The only real rule that shall be enforced is the "no more that half your wealth on a single item", others are more guidelines that are explicitely opened to different character concepts... a wizard will not spend half his wealth in armors and weapons, as a fighter will probably not spend much gold in scrolls.


With all these numbers flying around I thought it would be worth posting this simple observation.

My level 8, decidedly unoptimized druid archer pulled off 70+ damage (I don't remember the exact number) in one round and didn't even hit with all her arrows.

That's because she did about 37 damage and her pouncing tiger did another 35 or so. But that's still one character's worth of damage.

If I had optimized her, then between her and her tiger getting 100 damage in a round at level 8 would not be terribly difficult. Much less at level 11.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Maxximilius wrote:
Dolomyte wrote:
I said 13, not 12. The starting wealth for a 13 is 140k, +5 pistols are 50k, so thats 100k. a +6 dex belt is 36k, which, assuming a starting dex of 17, 2 racial, and 3 advancements gets you 28. which is a +9.

Nice, but I know how to read too. You are also missing the 2350 GP needed to craft two DB pistols, and the 72 GP by round of alchemical cartridges. Just some questions :

- Where is, you know, your armor ?
- What are your saves ?
- What are your HP ?

Your character looks so laughably easily to kill that I couldn't care less about the guy hitting hard, nor would any DM worth it's salt consider it a broken foe.
One-trick pony, cristal-fragile, high damage character required to stay at close range to be efficient ? Priority target. Same level archer fighter enters the game and full attacks once, you die miserably.

No it isn't. Pistols are one-handed weapons.
Also, I see that you have found a way to put WF in a TWF pistolero build. I'm curious to know what essential feat you sacrificed to make this possible.
Not that WF is in the slightest optimum for a gunslinger...

Same level archer can't one round a CR 20. One trick pony or not, if that trick is broken, it needs fixing. (if closing the gap is your defense, which im sure it will be, the priest or caster in the group could dimension door you into range)

My fix for gunslingers is make the rapid reload and cartridge combination equal 1, ONE, free reload a round. This way if someone wants to take 6-8 shots in a single round (haste, rapid shot, whatever). They can use a pepperbox, then after the second round of shooting they would need to reload.

I agree wholeheartedly that the double-barrel pistol only means one single extra shot. not in effect manyshot on every shot. but Paizo nver gave a firm ruling on that.

As for the fragility of my build, Its no more fragile then a rogue, or a wizard, with more hp's then either of those classes. And roughly the same AC as the rogue. It's not meant to tank. It's meant to do damage, which is does very well.

Silver Crusade

Dolomyte wrote:
Same level archer can't one round a CR 20.

Really ? CR 20 have not an AC so high, I can build level 12 monks with more AC than a CR 20 creature. Crit on a single arrow and you've got a base 3d8+75 base damage on a single hit, with at least three other arrows at your best BAB.

Also, not the system's problem again if the DM doesn't know how to play a CR 20 creature as to stand on it's assumptions or to deal with your group. A low level wizard that rolls high on SR and an enemy that fumble can mean you just one-shoted a creature with a transmutation spell out of sheer luck.
Wind wall is a low level spell that negates your contribution, concealment from simple smoke is a b$$@$ to deal with, illusions are fun, invisibility is worse and yet common.

Quote:
One trick pony or not, if that trick is broken, it needs fixing. (if closing the gap is your defense, which im sure it will be, the priest or caster in the group could dimension door you into range)

Then I'm sure my own caster readied a prepared dispel magic. And he's a specialist in it. Or it's a diviner that began his round before you, quick-dimensional-anchored you and just sent you in another plane in the same round just to be sure, because he can. Or the conveniently placed fighter readied a disarm.

See what I did there ?

Quote:
As for the fragility of my build, Its no more fragile then a rogue, or a wizard, with more hp's then either of those classes. And roughly the same AC as the...

Comparing your AC to that of a wizard as an argument that it isn't so bad ? When you are a front martial class ? Nope.

You just found a trick that requires you to basically die in the following round to attempt it, including a pal wizard to teleport you in close range to foes that can stomp him in a swing, just in case your group didn't appreciate the loss of the pistolero yet.
Perfect glass cannon that requires to suck misfire during 10+ levels ? I'm still not impressed in the slightest.


Dolomyte wrote:


I agree wholeheartedly that the double-barrel pistol only means one single extra shot. not in effect manyshot on every shot. but Paizo nver gave a firm ruling on that

But that isn't RAW.

Anyway, he could just use one Double pistol then swing it to other hand for TWFing feat.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Starbuck_II wrote:
Dolomyte wrote:


I agree wholeheartedly that the double-barrel pistol only means one single extra shot. not in effect manyshot on every shot. but Paizo nver gave a firm ruling on that

But that isn't RAW.

Anyway, he could just use one Double pistol then swing it to other hand for TWFing feat.

No, you actually need two weapons for twf


Dolomyte wrote:
My fix for gunslingers is make the rapid reload and cartridge combination equal 1, ONE, free reload a round.

I'd suggest a more simple fix, that is nearly in the RAW already: Don't allow two pistols being used with reloading.

You need two hands to reload a weapon. It makes sense to me that the hand is being used during the round to load the weapon. To suddenly drop the weapon and use both hands to fire and reload a second weapon feels like you are mincing rules to get the offhand attacks.

Even if you want to allow using two weapons with both hands, the weaponcord + two weapons thing necessitates firing all rounds with one weapon before moving on to the next. A DM can rule that you need to fire your weapons intermittent to follow BAB (highest primary, highest secondary, next primary, next secondary, etc) which kills this combo as well.

Now, just firing away with two muti-shot guns outright is fine. I see that all the time in movies with revolvers. However, a pepperbox needs two hands to move cylinders, so we are really talking about Advanced weapons (that might not exist depending on the campaign). In a normal campaign, you'd get maybe two shots per hand (double barrel guns).

Gunslinger ridiculousness is reduced when you take a moment to think about the use of your hands.

TL;DR: Firing and reloading, even with a free action, uses up both hands.. to the point that I'd be hard pressed to argue against a ruling saying that your "offhand" is being used and can't be used for wielding another weapon for TWF.
If as a DM you are freaking out about the Pistolero two weapon, double barrel damage... this is all you need to do to "keep him in line". You've literally halved the damage, and it makes conceptual and rule sense.


You have to survive to level 10 to play at level 10. Yeah I know that some games start off at higher levels, but most don't. :(

In any event if there are multiple enemies and you 1-shot one of them the rest get to dogpile you and you get a new character. I would not be worried about it.

Kaisoku has a point. If it takes two hands to reload then this build is not happening anyway without a vestial arm(?) or some other trick that allows weapons to be loaded without a freeing a hand up.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Matt Stich wrote:
Starbuck_II wrote:
Anyway, he could just use one Double pistol then swing it to other hand for TWFing feat.
No, you actually need two weapons for twf

See.. and this is why it doesn't make sense that you can drop the first weapon, pull up the other, and then do the same thing. It's the same amount of time being used, so what about the second weapon makes it so that this seems right, but switching the weapon from one hand to the other is somehow wrong?

Perhaps both should be wrong?

In beta they had a feat that let you switch the weapon from one hand to the other for purposes of TWF.
There were a lot of questions about that feat (people asking if it was to allow TWFers only needing one magical weapon to get full TWF benefits), and the designers responded by taking out the feat.
Ultimately, the creator of the feat was thinking more along the lines of the Princess Bride, "Haha! I'm not actually left handed!", but in practice it made a more drastic change.

It didn't make sense then, and was stricken from the game, so it shouldn't make sense now.

I'll see if I can find that thread...
Here it is. I linked to the dev response, but you can scroll back and read the whole discussion if you want.

The general consensus is that it's illogical to get extra attacks in the same span of time, if you are (physically) waiting to make those attacks until after your first set are done. Rolling them all on one and then the other make no difference... is that the weapon spent it's time doing all your BAB attacks on one hand, your offhand needs to be doing attacks while that's going on, not after those are done.

This follows through with the "need a hand to reload" issue, and I'm inclined to rule the same way here.

No two weapons used if (two hand) reloading is involved.

And this is coming from a person who is playing a gun toting PC right now.

Silver Crusade

Kaisoku wrote:
Dolomyte wrote:
My fix for gunslingers is make the rapid reload and cartridge combination equal 1, ONE, free reload a round.

I'd suggest a more simple fix, that is nearly in the RAW already: Don't allow two pistols being used with reloading.

You need two hands to reload a weapon. It makes sense to me that the hand is being used during the round to load the weapon. To suddenly drop the weapon and use both hands to fire and reload a second weapon feels like you are mincing rules to get the offhand attacks.

No one is cheesing anything. TWFing needs two weapon to attack during the round, one in each hand. You can do it with weapon cords or/and with a storing glove. You got one swift acion per round or may switch your weapon from one hand to another as a free action : you're saying it yourself, "nearly". This is RAW, so anyone can use them granted enough resources and feats invested.

Even the iconic double wields old pistols. Double wielding guns is the most common trope with a pistol setting, and wishing to do so without having to resort to the revolver (which IS a broken weapon in any setting not dealing commonly with firearms) is normal.

I've yet so see an example of broken build that isn't laughably easy to kill... or where everyone read the rules thoroughly before arguing about them. I've seen the gunslinger and every arguments against it from the very beginning of the official UC playtest, I've seen it in game, I've seen it in theorycrafting, I've designed content for it.
And last time we got someone complaining about gunslingers, it ended after 550+ posts, lots of botched DPR calculations that were proven wrong, and still no point was made.

Shadow Lodge

drbuzzard wrote:
Kolokotroni wrote:

can you give us more details then 'over the top'? How much damage was he doing? What feats did he have? etc.

Over the top is handing out on the order of 100 damage in a round on touch attacks. Nobody will convince me that is unbroken.

Quote:

"Loading a Firearm: You need at least one hand free to load one-handed and two-handed firearms. In the case of two-handed firearms, you hold the weapon in one hand and load it with the other—you only need to hold it in two hands to aim and shoot the firearm. Loading siege firearms requires both hands, and one hand usually manipulates a large ramrod (which can be wielded as a club in combat). "

A relevant quote from the OGL Gunslinger section:

Lightning Reload (Ex): At 11th level, as long as the gunslinger has at least 1 grit point, she can reload a single barrel of a one-handed or two-handed firearm as a swift action once per round. If she has the Rapid Reload feat or is using an alchemical cartridge (or both), she can reload a single barrel of the weapon as a free action each round instead. Furthermore, using this deed does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

The bolded bit was discussed as important in the previous discussion I found on this subject. It would appear to indicate you can reload as a free action once per found.

As that is a bit ambiguous, I was hoping an errata or FAQ had addressed this point.

wait... 100 points of damage is broken to you? at 11th level thats not very OP. a druid can, with a furious finish build, hit for over 200 points of damage on its highest bab.

a ninja can hit for 8 attacks @ 8d2 + strength + any magical modifiers + feats + 5d6 sneak attack with ninja stars in melee while flanking.

100-150 on a touch attack/attacks is not over powered.


Maxximilius wrote:
Double wielding guns is the most common trope with a pistol setting, and wishing to do so without having to resort to the revolver (which IS a broken weapon in any setting not dealing commonly with firearms) is normal.

Take a look at some movies and shows that show dual wielding guns. They all have guns that automatically load the next shot for you (revolvers) and they all include a downtime where they have to reload and then move on.*Edit* Even Equilibrium had a brief pause as he dumps his spent clips, and rolls over the extras he threw ahead of himself, before shooting again. And those ain't front-loaders.

Especially when it comes to front-loading pistols, you simply don't see "3 shots fired from one gun using both hands, drop weapon, pull another and 3 more shots fired from a second gun the same way". It's simply isn't part of the trope.

The trope desired is from a Western or later era gun setting. This is revolvers or some other form of autoloader advancement.

And even with a revolver setting, the trope includes a pause (1 round) to reload both the guns before moving on.

This, I'm fine with. It's the idea of front loading a gun and firing a gun a bunch of times, using both hands, and then expecting to get more attacks in the round by spending extra time dropping that weapon and grabbing another to do the same process.
I'd sooner believe you just spent the time shooting more times with the same weapon (like Rapid shot) rather than waste time and actions grabbing a second weapon.

I mean.. it's a free action to just switch which hand the weapon is in. How is that not ridiculously simpler than having weapon cords and pulling up a second gun?

The TWF pistols seriously takes advantage of the "offhand weapon" wording.

Please note: I'm not even talking about a balance or power issue. I have a conceptual issue with this process.


Now, I'm not one to normally go with the "Non-casters can't have nice things" route.

I'd rather see a "Rapid Fire" feat (or feat tree) that added extra attacks with a single weapon, as long as you can reload as a free action.

Reloading and shooting a firearm is about the same as pulling an arrow from a quiver and shooting a bow. Bows get Rapid Shot.. not "fire your BAB iteratives, drop the bow, swift action pull up another bow and fire your offhand attacks".

If I were DM, I'd probably just let someone use the Rapid Shot feat with any firing ranged weapon that he can reload as a free action (so that includes Crossbow Mastery situations too).


1 person marked this as a favorite.

The main problem with allowing the, weapon cord quick draw twf gunslinger, is that you so easily run into a smililar problem with all the rest of the ranged chars. Personally i dont see the rules argument for letting a person dual wield with a weapon cord, but even if you allow it, here are some of the problems that can follow.

What about the fighter wanting to dual wield greatsword dagger, where the dagger is hold in a weapon cord, and the greatsword is wielded in 1 hand after its attacks are resolved, so he can have the hand free for the dagger. (would work with any one handed weapon in the other hand)

What about the Ranger that decides that firing 5 arrows at level 11 isnt enough, so he wants to dual wield a hand crosbow in the other hand once he is done shooting his bow. Again using the weapon cord.

How about the musketeer with his 2 h weapon and catridges and everything so he can reload as a free action, dropping the musket after attacking (into a weapon cord), then drawing a pepperbox and gets more attacks off.

One thing is certain, if you allow the cheese with weapon cord and 2 wp fighting for one class, then you need to allow it for all classes. And honestly all of these alternatives seem really dumb.

Moving on to speaking about the gunslinger. I do believe that i can make a reasonable gunslinger that approaches OP, even without using this mega cheese. Ill try to find my book and build him after dinner or something later today, so you guys can comment.

Silver Crusade

Kaisoku wrote:
Please note: I'm not even talking about a balance or power issue. I have a conceptual issue with this process.

You're taking the problem the opposite way : I personally don't see why a character that takes two levels in another class (vestigial arm alchemist/rapid reloading spellslinger), or uses a similar kind of weapon that exists in the system but is only available in adanced settings (revolver) would be better at my own job and close me the path of the double-pistols trope. Said revolver also is better in any way and deserves it's reloading limitations.

Note that there is no way to do it efficiently by instead transporting and quick drawing a ton of pistols, that is another cool but impossible to do efficientely trope considering the weight, price and magic weapons issue met.

Kaisoku wrote:
If I were DM, I'd probably just let someone use the Rapid Shot feat with any firing ranged weapon that he can reload as a free action (so that includes Crossbow Mastery situations too).

Rapid Shot already works for all ranged weapons (except siege engines if I remember), even if you can't reload it as a free action.

Silver Crusade

nicklas Læssøe wrote:
What about the fighter wanting to dual wield greatsword dagger, where the dagger is hold in a weapon cord, and the greatsword is wielded in 1 hand after its attacks are resolved, so he can have the hand free for the dagger. (would work with any one handed weapon in the other hand)

You can't wield a 2HW in one hand by raw.

The same guy could simply TWF with a greatsword and armor spikes instead, which incurs no further investment except feats. Or THF with a one-handed weapon and draw/hide an off-hand weapon in a storing glove to both TH and TW fight.

Quote:
What about the Ranger that decides that firing 5 arrows at level 11 isnt enough, so he wants to dual wield a hand crosbow in the other hand once he is done shooting his bow. Again using the weapon cord.

A bow is a two-handed weapon, and you can't wield another weapon in a hand tied to a weapon cord by RAW. Same guy could instead let his bow fall, quick draw and shoot with a crossbow as long as he sucks the TWF penalties and invest in feats.

Quote:
How about the musketeer with his 2 h weapon and catridges and everything so he can reload as a free action, dropping the musket after attacking (into a weapon cord), then drawing a pepperbox and gets more attacks off.

Same than above, no weapon cord for TH weapons since you can't attack with another weapon in the same hand. Did you know that an alchemist can TWF with bows though ?

Quote:
Moving on to speaking about the gunslinger. I do believe that i can make a reasonable gunslinger that approaches OP, even without using this mega cheese. Ill try to find my book and build him after dinner or something later today, so you guys can comment.

Spare you the suffering of building a character, everybody knows what a gunslinger is able to do. What people don't agree with is that finding a seemingly awesome hole in the rules is meaningless if you die in a single spell or full-attack... sometimes even your own if the enemy isn't dumb and has reach.

Andoran

nicklas Læssøe wrote:

The main problem with allowing the, weapon cord quick draw twf gunslinger, is that you so easily run into a smililar problem with all the rest of the ranged chars. Personally i dont see the rules argument for letting a person dual wield with a weapon cord, but even if you allow it, here are some of the problems that can follow.

What about the fighter wanting to dual wield greatsword dagger, where the dagger is hold in a weapon cord, and the greatsword is wielded in 1 hand after its attacks are resolved, so he can have the hand free for the dagger. (would work with any one handed weapon in the other hand)

What about the Ranger that decides that firing 5 arrows at level 11 isnt enough, so he wants to dual wield a hand crosbow in the other hand once he is done shooting his bow. Again using the weapon cord.

How about the musketeer with his 2 h weapon and catridges and everything so he can reload as a free action, dropping the musket after attacking (into a weapon cord), then drawing a pepperbox and gets more attacks off.

One thing is certain, if you allow the cheese with weapon cord and 2 wp fighting for one class, then you need to allow it for all classes. And honestly all of these alternatives seem really dumb.

Moving on to speaking about the gunslinger. I do believe that i can make a reasonable gunslinger that approaches OP, even without using this mega cheese. Ill try to find my book and build him after dinner or something later today, so you guys can comment.

By RAW you can only use any given limb to make one attack (or series of attacks if you have iterative attacks. Ergo "greatsword and dagger," "bow and crossbow," "musketeer and anything" all fail to work.


No. People just think they are because they are using broken builds as examples.


So by the rules of weapon cord.

weapon cords are 2-foot-long leather straps that attach your weapon to your wrist. If you drop your weapon or are disarmed, you can recover it as a swift action, and it never moves any further away from you than an adjacent square. However, you cannot switch to a different weapon without first untying the cord (a full-round action) or cutting it (a move action or an attack, hardness 0, 0 hp). Unlike a locked gauntlet, you can still use a hand with a weapon cord, though a dangling weapon may interfere with finer actions.

So by this, you can most definately use the hand to wield other weapon, you just cant use another weapon in the cord without using a full round action.

Ie then you should be able to use a greatsword, drop it and let it hang in your right hand weapon cord. Then use swift action to retrieve the greatsword in your left hand weapon cord. And proceed to attack with that one.

I would claim as a GM, that you need to attack according to your BAB attacks. As far as i remember you cant choose to use the fx +11/+11/+6/+6, with first +11/+6 and then +11/+6. But if this is a houserule or not im not completely sure, and my search fu is lacking right now.

Silver Crusade

nicklas Læssøe wrote:
So by this, you can most definately use the hand to wield other weapon, you just cant use another weapon in the cord without using a full round action.

What ?

You just quoted it yourself : "you cannot switch to a different weapon without first untying the cord (a full-round action) or cutting it (a move action or an attack, hardness 0, 0 hp)".
You CAN'T switch to another weapon with a hand tied to a weapon cord without removing or destroying it first.

Quote:
Ie then you should be able to use a greatsword, drop it and let it hang in your right hand weapon cord. Then use swift action to retrieve the greatsword in your left hand weapon cord. And proceed to attack with that one.

No you can't, don't be silly. Again : a TH weapon cannot be wielded in one hand, even less used to TWF with itself. Plus, both hands are already treated as used and tied to the weapon.

Quote:
I would claim as a GM, that you need to attack according to your BAB attacks. As far as i remember you cant choose to use the fx +11/+11/+6/+6, with first +11/+6 and then +11/+6. But if this is a houserule or not im not completely sure, and my search fu is lacking right now.

This in a RAW discussion, and even then, the rules don't precise whether you actually have to do additional attacks given -from anything else than high BAB- in order.

Oh, and even if it did mention it, a glove of storing, a weapon cord and switching a weapon from one hand to another as a free action allows to do each attack from highest to lowest in the "right" order.


Glove of storing is limited to one hand only, and swift actions for the weapon cord is one per round, so alternating more than once would not work.

Rapid shot gives an extra ranged attack per round, but if you can't reload as a free action you aren't getting that extra attack

I also like how you refute other methods of using a weapon cord by stating that both hands are being used, while saying that it's fine for pistols doing it despite the same language about "it takes two hands to load a firearm". I'm curious as to how that's different from the description of how a bow is used.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

@ maxillius, yes apparently i misread that rule, fair enough.

It is still impossible to use the weapon cord with twf and guns though. The weapon cord specifically requires a swift action, and the iterative attacks require a full round action. You cannot just take a swift action inside your full attack action to recover the second gun. I need to look up the gloves of storing to see if they require a swift action too, if they do then this doesnt work either.

Ofcourse the vistigial arm alchemist gunslinger works by RAW, but he also takes the multiclass penaltys to be able to do it, and is definately way less imba.

Silver Crusade

Kaisoku wrote:
Glove of storing is limited to one hand only, and swift actions for the weapon cord is one per round, so alternating more than once would not work.

Fun thing about TWFing : it doesn't offer a lot of off-hand attacks. Assuming GTWF :

Get pistol in left hand, stored double-barelled pistol in right hand.
Shoot with left hand, reload with right.
Get right hand as free action, shoot once, remove weapon as a free action.
Shoot with left hand, reload with right.
Get right hand as free action, shoot once, remove weapon as a free action.
Shoot with left hand, reload with right.
Get right hand as free action, use Lightning Reload, shoot once, drop left weapon, reload right weapon, remove right weapon as a free action.
Grab left weapon as a swift action, shoot with left hand, reload with right.

Quote:
Rapid shot gives an extra ranged attack per round, but if you can't reload as a free action you aren't getting that extra attack

Care to provide the text about this ? :)

Quote:
I also like how you refute other methods of using a weapon cord by stating that both hands are being used, while saying that it's fine for pistols doing it despite the same language about "it takes two hands to load a firearm". I'm curious as to how that's different from the description of how a bow is used.

The bow is a weapon that needs two hands to use, as stated in it's description. This means that you have used two hands to use it, while shooting with a pistol requires one hand to wield and another to reload, but the reloading hand is still free to take it's own actions for the purposes of a weapon cord.


A glove of storing requires a free action to use, but you are also not allowed free actions during other actions, so we run into the same problem as above.

Also the weapon cord states that fine actions, and i would rule that reloading a gun definately counts as that, can be interfered with.


Maxximilius wrote:


Quote:
Rapid shot gives an extra ranged attack per round, but if you can't reload as a free action you aren't getting that extra attack

Care to provide the text about this ? :)

You use up seperate amunition for the attack, actually fire that extra time, which is the reason that you get full modifiers and +bonus damage to the attacks. So if anything you need to provide evidence that the attack does not need to be loaded like a normal shot, because for all acounts and purposes it counts as one. Otherwise you would see the same as per manyshot.


nicklas Læssøe wrote:

A glove of storing requires a free action to use, but you are also not allowed free actions during other actions, so we run into the same problem as above.

Also the weapon cord states that fine actions, and i would rule that reloading a gun definately counts as that, can be interfered with.

Actually some free actions can be taken during other actions, like talking or nock an arrow


yes talking is specifically mentioned to be able to do, even when it is not your turn. But unless otherwise noted there is no reason to think all free actions can be taken during other actions. Then there would be no reason to mention the exceptions.

Silver Crusade

nicklas Læssøe wrote:

A glove of storing requires a free action to use, but you are also not allowed free actions during other actions, so we run into the same problem as above.

Also the weapon cord states that fine actions, and i would rule that reloading a gun definately counts as that, can be interfered with.

Which falls into DM fiat, not RAW.

Also note that I myself would consider that after 5th level at least, a gunslinger should be able to know how to load his weapon well enough to not fail miserably just because there is some weight on his hand. But still, DM fiat.

nicklas Læssøe wrote:
You use up seperate amunition for the attack, actually fire that extra time, which is the reason that you get full modifiers and +bonus damage to the attacks. So if anything you need to provide evidence that the attack does not need to be loaded like a normal shot, because for all acounts and purposes it counts as one. Otherwise you would see the same as per manyshot.

I'm asking for actual text or at worst, designer support, not interpretation. My own position is the feat itself :

Quote:


Rapid Shot (Combat)

You can make an additional ranged attack.

Prerequisites: Dex 13, Point-Blank Shot.

Benefit: When making a full-attack action with a ranged weapon, you can fire one additional time this round. All of your attack rolls take a –2 penalty when using Rapid Shot.

Oh, also, did you know that Rapid Shot is a prerequisite of the feat that allows to reload a crossbow as a free action ? Or that you may use Rapid Shot with a musket that would take you a full-round action to reload ?

Believe me, I already made my homework on this topic long ago when designing characters and content.


Maxximilius wrote:


Which falls into DM fiat, not RAW.
Also note that I myself would consider that after 5th level at least, a gunslinger should be able to know how to load his weapon well enough to not fail miserably just because there is some weight on his hand. But still, DM fiat.

yes the weapon cord think is DM fiat, but it would most definately be supported by the rules. We also have the think about amount of free actions in a turn, and with the rules suggesting a limited amount of them, even with a liberal interpretation then using 18 free actions per round is excessive. I would read the rules to suggest that the number of allowed is some. How ever you want to interpret that. ( he would use 6 actions picking up weapons, 6 actions reloading and 6 actions dropping them.)

To be able to play a rule game, you must assume that you can only do stuff that is described in the rules, not anything that is not described. Since in the combat section it is described that each action is performed after eachother, untill you have no more actions, this must be the general rule, and you would need a specific rule in free actions stating that they can be taken during other actions.

Maxximilius wrote:


I'm asking for actual text or at worst, designer support, not interpretation. My own position is the feat itself :

Quote:


Rapid Shot (Combat)

You can make an additional ranged attack.

Prerequisites: Dex 13, Point-Blank Shot.

Benefit: When making a full-attack action with a ranged weapon, you can fire one additional time this round. All of your attack rolls take a –2 penalty when using Rapid Shot.

Again we land in the "you can fire one additional time...". Since no special rules are given for this attack, then we must assume that all normal rules for "firing one time" applies to this attack. Thus the attack consumes ammunition, gets normal bonusses to damage and requires a reload.

Maxximilius wrote:


Oh, also, did you know that Rapid Shot is a prerequisite of the feat that allows to reload a crossbow as a free action ? Or that you may use Rapid Shot with a musket that would take you a full-round action to reload ?
Believe me, I already made my homework on this topic long ago when designing characters and content.

Ofcourse you can use rapid shot with a musket, you just wont recieve any bonus unless you are able to take that ekstra attack, ie you can reload as a free action. You could combine it with the skill that pools all your attacks and only require one bullet, in which case it would just grant you one ekstra dice for the attack.

That its a prerequisite to the crossbow reloader means nothing. Ability focus constrict is also a prerequisite to some of the tetori feats, and that feat does nothing. Has 0 effect on constrict. That is just poor design from paizo, and not something you can win a rules argument with.


How did we get around the "two hands needed for a reload", or is that not true with one-handed firearms?


wraithstrike wrote:
How did we get around the "two hands needed for a reload", or is that not true with one-handed firearms?

Maxximilius were using weapon cords, but that didnt work, so now gloves of storing, to hold nothing in the other hand. Then use that other hand to help reload, make the first weapon dissappear after shooting and loading, then making new weapon appear in left hand.

Hey i just realised this means that you can dualwield with the free hand fighter archtype going by maxximilians rules, while still getting all the benifits of having a free hand.

Ofcourse you will need something that says you can take free actions during the attack action, which so far hasnt been found in the rules, but that is pretty much it.


Quote:
Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM.

I don't consider putting the item into the glove, taking it out of the glove, loading the gun(both barrels), and getting all those attacks off reasonable.

In any event this does not prove the gunslinger is broken. It proves that too much leniency on the part of a GM is broken.

Silver Crusade

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nicklas Læssøe wrote:
yes the weapon cord think is DM fiat, but it would most definately be supported by the rules. We also have the think about amount of free actions in a turn, and with the rules suggesting a limited amount of them, even with a liberal interpretation then using 18 free actions per round is excessive. I would read the rules to suggest that the number of allowed is some. How ever you want to interpret that. ( he would use 6 actions picking up weapons, 6 actions reloading and 6 actions dropping them.)

Same level 12 archer is drawing and shooting 6 arrows in 6 seconds with better damage, the wizard is warping reality and the monk is walking in the sky.

Doing cool things like reloading fast by snatching alchemical cartridges from your body with the barrel ? Neither impossible nor should be, it's not even the most cheesy way to "win" the game.

Quote:
To be able to play a rule game, you must assume that you can only do stuff that is described in the rules, not anything that is not described. Since in the combat section it is described that each action is performed after eachother, untill you have no more actions, this must be the general rule, and you would need a specific rule in free actions stating that they can be taken during other actions.

The reloading sequence shows actions performed one after another, not actions performed at the same time.

Quote:
Again we land in the "you can fire one additional time...". Since no special rules are given for this attack, then we must assume that all normal rules for "firing one time" applies to this attack. Thus the attack consumes ammunition, gets normal bonusses to damage and requires a reload.

Nope, we assume nothing, we just apply the rules that say you get an additional attack. It already worked this way in 3.5 and the text is still the same. At the time, I found a FAQ entry on WOTC website that explained the designer's clarification, and said that Rapid Shot basically offered a free reload during your round. Pathfinder RPG took it into account since it's Alpha playtest version. But feel free to hit the FAQ button, I myself would love some clarification on the topic.

Quote:
Ofcourse you will need something that says you can take free actions during the attack action, which so far hasnt been found in the rules, but that is pretty much it.

Guess what kind of action it is to draw an arrow for your bow when you full-attack ?


I completely agree wraithstrike.

I have however found that the rules say that you normally can take free actions during other actions, so my counter argument there is broken. It does however work against the weapon cord, because the swift action is not allowed during other actions.

One more problem is in the use of empty hand fighter, as i mentioned above, or with the different kinds of crossbows that exist.

What should stop people from using a repeater crossbow in dual wield? because even if the rules mention that you need 2 hands to use the leaver, you can fire it with just one hand. Why not just fire it, use leaver with other hand, make it dissappear, make a new reappear in other hand, and fire that and so on.

If twf with pistols and reloading is allowed, it comes down to the fact if using two hands in reloading it, counts as using two hands for wielding that weapon, or if reloading it somehow does not count in the wielding the weapon. This is before adding a lenient GM that will allow a player 18 free actions a round, and not caring that the player is obviously looking for a loophole. But that is ofcourse not the point here, but rather if this loophole even exists.

Silver Crusade

wraithstrike wrote:
Quote:
Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM.

I don't consider putting the item into the glove, taking it out of the glove, loading the gun(both barrels), and getting all those attacks off reasonable.

In any event this does not prove the gunslinger is broken. It proves that too much leniency on the part of a GM is broken.

And yet, even with such leniency, we still have to see a REAL broken build that isn't a laughably glass cannon easy to shatter.

So is the gunslinger overpowered ? Since we're probably reaching the 1000's posts on this exact topic, the answer is still no.
It has the potential to ruin someone's day when you reach level 13, but no more than the same level wizard casting a nasty spell and with no magical tricks to cover himself.


Maxximilius wrote:


Nope, we assume nothing, we just apply the rules that say you get an additional attack. It already worked this way in 3.5 and the text is still the same. At the time, I found a FAQ entry on WOTC website that explained the designer's clarification, and said that Rapid Shot basically offered a free reload during your round....

Oh, if we assume nothing then how does making an ekstra attack work? do i roll d100 to hit and on anything above 32.4 i hit a monster, doing 11.3 * 2d4 dam....

We must ofcourse follow the rules for how getting an ekstra attack works. Otherwise they will need to write how this ekstra attack difer from any other ekstra attack you get. Otherwise please explain why or if the attack recieves +bonus damage, +precision damage, takes up ammo.

as i wrote above i found out that free actions can be taken during attacks, swift actions cannot however. So only gloves of storing will work.

Silver Crusade

nicklas Læssøe wrote:
What should stop people from using a repeater crossbow in dual wield? because even if the rules mention that you need 2 hands to use the leaver, you can fire it with just one hand. Why not just fire it, use leaver with other hand, make it dissappear, make a new reappear in other hand, and fire that and so on.

Well, both because the rules allow you to do so, and because a guy doing this would suck much ?

"You can fire a repeating crossbow with one hand or fire a repeating crossbow in each hand in the same manner as you would a normal crossbow of the same size."

Firing a light repeating crossbow in one hand implies a -2 penalty to hit. If you do so your other hand is treated as free, so you can use another weapon with a weapon cord. Add in -4 from TWFing, and your character has -6 to hit with each hand before accounting any rapid shot... all this for ridiculous damage while the same level archer kicks asses with a composite bow and no attack penalty.

Silver Crusade

nicklas Læssøe wrote:
Maxximilius wrote:


Nope, we assume nothing, we just apply the rules that say you get an additional attack. It already worked this way in 3.5 and the text is still the same. At the time, I found a FAQ entry on WOTC website that explained the designer's clarification, and said that Rapid Shot basically offered a free reload during your round....

Oh, if we assume nothing then how does making an ekstra attack work? do i roll d100 to hit and on anything above 32.4 i hit a monster, doing 11.3 * 2d4 dam....

We must ofcourse follow the rules for how getting an ekstra attack works. Otherwise they will need to write how this ekstra attack difer from any other ekstra attack you get. Otherwise please explain why or if the attack recieves +bonus damage, +precision damage, takes up ammo.

The rule is already written. Perform one extra attack with -2 penalty, nothing more, nothing less.

Quote:
as i wrote above i found out that free actions can be taken during attacks, swift actions cannot however. So only gloves of storing will work.

"A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort than a free action. You can perform one swift action per turn without affecting your ability to perform other actions. In that regard, a swift action is like a free action. You can, however, perform only one single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take. You can take a swift action anytime you would normally be allowed to take a free action."


I don't think it is OP. I was just saying that if this build is let into a game ran by a GM that can't deal with it the problem is not the build.

The gloves as an example are basically emulating revolvers in the above scebario, which are on a different technology level because the game does not intend for you to have them at the Emerging Guns level.


"The rule is already written. Perform one extra attack with -2 penalty, nothing more, nothing less. "

Exactly what i said. So what makes this attack not require a reload?

Silver Crusade

nicklas Læssøe wrote:

"The rule is already written. Perform one extra attack with -2 penalty, nothing more, nothing less. "

Exactly what i said. So what makes this attack not require a reload?

Ask the original designers. Or better, do some search about crossbows, find out that they suck so much they made it into TVTropes for it, find out that ranged combat itself also sucked balls in 3.5 even with a bow, and wonder what the possibility to shoot once more per round implies when it comes to make a combat style more viable as a design trick.

Silver Crusade

wraithstrike wrote:

I don't think it is OP. I was just saying that if this build is let into a game ran by a GM that can't deal with it the problem is not the build.

The gloves as an example are basically emulating revolvers in the above scebario, which are on a different technology level because the game does not intend for you to have them at the Emerging Guns level.

With this I agree fully. I don't like either having to know the rules like a game designer to play a concept so universal without sucking, nor having to spend a ton of free actions each round to reload ; but in the end it all works together, and after all the book is called Ultimate Combat, coming after the Core and Advanced Players rulebooks.

A simple fix would have been gloves that transfer their enhancement to a weapon you draw during one round, an item or feat to sheathe your weapon as a free action, or simply a weapon property to auto-reload your weapon.


I think the lesser guns are supposed to be worse. How much worse is a matter of contention. I would probably allow some type of ability to reload the gun, but then I would get rid of the double barrel idea. I would allow the gunslinger to be effective from a little farther out though so he is not standing on the front lines. Of course this is theory crafting since I don't know how it works in actual play.

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