I'm creating my first PFS character and I have two questions which I'm not entirly sure and want to have all my ducks in a row.
Concept is a two weapon Magus with a spiked guantlet
1) I am considering the Magicl Trait "Magical Talent".
Magical Talent: Either from inborn talent, the whimsy
of the gods, or obsessive study of strange tomes, you have
mastered the use of a cantrip. Choose a 0-level spell. You
may cast that spell once per day as a spell-like ability. This
spell-like ability is cast at your highest caster level gained;
if you have no caster level, it functions at CL 1st. The spelllike
ability’s save DC is Charisma-based.
from what list(s) can the 0-level spell be chosen from?
2) My intent is to use a spiked guantlet in conjunction with Two Weapon Defense.
Gauntlet, Spiked: The cost and weight given are for
a single gauntlet. An attack with a spiked gauntlet is
considered an armed attack. Your opponent cannot use a
disarm action to disarm you of spiked gauntlets.
Two-Weapon Defense (Combat)
You are skilled at defending yourself while dual-wielding.
Prerequisites: Dex 15, Two-Weapon Fighting.
Benefit: When wielding a double weapon or two weapons
(not including natural weapons or unarmed strikes), you
gain a +1 shield bonus to your AC.
When you are fighting defensively or using the total
defense action, this shield bonus increases to +2.
Is this combination vaiable?
You understand that wielding two weapons locks you out of spell combat?
It was my understanding that that for spell combat, the Magus only required a free hand
"To use this ability, the magus must have one
hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic
components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee
weapon in the other hand."
Would a spiked guantlet still be a free hand when Two Weapon Fighting is not being utalized (no extra attack)? Whereas Two Weapon Defense would only be applicable while using Two Weapon Combat.
My intent was to multiclass Magus with Ninja (understanding it is not an optimal combination needing both Int, Chr and Dex for AC due to light armor restrictions) advancing Magus only to 5th level and depending on the arcane pool powers and sneak attack for a majority of damage done.
Seeing that I was not intending on advancing to higher levels with Magus and having to prepare what few spells I will have, I was not really intending on utalizing many defensive spells.
I do plan to take Dodge.
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Would a spiked guantlet still be a free hand when Two Weapon Fighting is not being utalized (no extra attack)?No. Your hand also wouldn't be "free" while carrying a potion, wand, money bag, or dead comrade in that hand.
So a magus cannot wear anything on their hands if they want to cast spells?
It was my understanding that because they are proficient with armor(s) and can cast while wearing armor (without penalties) and since guantlets come with medium and heavy armors, they would not interfere with spellcasting.
Now if it a question of possible spell failure as a guantlet is considered medium/heavy I can understand that ... that being said what % failure would it (a guantlet) have?
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The gauntlet that comes with medium/heavy armor is for flavor, just like a helmet. Sure, you can say you have one, but it doesnt really affect anything.
The reason the gauntlet (the kind you have to pay for) restricts the Spell Combat is because you are considered 'armed' while using it. While it might leave you able to hold something in your hand, the movement of your hand would be drastically reduced by wearing it, which doesnt allow you to make the precise movements needed for casting spells with that hand.
And yea, it kinda stinks. :/
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Would a spiked guantlet still be a free hand when Two Weapon Fighting is not being utalized (no extra attack)?No. Your hand also wouldn't be "free" while carrying a potion, wand, money bag, or dead comrade in that hand.So a magus cannot wear anything on their hands if they want to cast spells?
It was my understanding that because they are proficient with armor(s) and can cast while wearing armor (without penalties) and since guantlets come with medium and heavy armors, they would not interfere with spellcasting.
Now if it a question of possible spell failure as a guantlet is considered medium/heavy I can understand that ... that being said what % failure would it (a guantlet) have?
We're not talking about the interaction of gauntlets and normal spellcasting rules. We're talking about Spell Combat.
Spell Combat is even more restrictive than normal spellcasting rules. (Note that it says your hand must be free even if the spell has no somatic components - which would normally bypass Arcane Spell Failure chance.)
Spell Combat says your hand must be free. It doesn't go into specifics on what is and is not considered "free", but good luck finding a GM that would let you wield a weapon and still call it a free hand. If you want a TWF option that will still leave you open to Spell Combat, you'll need Improved Unarmed Stike.
Spell Combat says your hand must be free. It doesn't go into specifics on what is and is not considered "free", but good luck finding a GM that would let you wield a weapon and still call it a free hand.
I don't think I've ever met a GM who suggested that a gauntleted hand is not a free hand (spikes or no spikes)...
The gauntlet that comes with medium/heavy armor is for flavor, just like a helmet. Sure, you can say you have one, but it doesnt really affect anything.
The reason the gauntlet (the kind you have to pay for) restricts the Spell Combat is because you are considered 'armed' while using it. While it might leave you able to hold something in your hand, the movement of your hand would be drastically reduced by wearing it, which doesnt allow you to make the precise movements needed for casting spells with that hand.
And yea, it kinda stinks. :/
So the only way to have a two weapon Magus (and retain spell combat) is with the Spellblade Archetype.
That does stink though I think some kind of official clarification should be made about the use of spells/spell combat with gauntlets ... standard or spiked
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So the only way to have a two weapon Magus (and retain spell combat) is with the Spellblade Archetype.
Or Improved Unarmed Strike.
That does stink though I think some kind of official clarification should be made about the use of spells/spell combat with gauntlets ... standard or spiked
You might take that over to the Rules boards. For that matter, there might be existing threads, so do a search first.
In the meantime, expect table variation in PFS. And my own prediction is that a table ruling in your favor will be rare in this particular issue, so plan accordingly.
So the only way to have a two weapon Magus (and retain spell combat) is with the Spellblade Archetype.Or Improved Unarmed Strike.
That does stink though I think some kind of official clarification should be made about the use of spells/spell combat with gauntlets ... standard or spikedYou might take that over to the Rules boards. For that matter, there might be existing threads, so do a search first.
In the meantime, expect table variation in PFS. And my own prediction is that a table ruling in your favor will be rare in this particular issue, so plan accordingly.
After searching through a few theads that are somewhat related, Other than one I started some time ago (and got only one response /sadface) I can only find some discussion of using unarmed/guantlet as primary weapon with spellcombat which is not what I am questioning.
I realize that when using spellcombat, the extra (spiked gauntlet) attack from TWF cannot be utalized. My question now revolves around being able to use spellcombat while wearing a spiked guantlet (is it a free hand) and not also using the guantlet to attack in the same round.
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I realize that when using spellcombat, the extra (spiked gauntlet) attack from TWF cannot be utalized. My question now revolves around being able to use spellcombat while wearing a spiked guantlet (is it a free hand) and not also using the guantlet to attack in the same round.
Thinking about it some more, I could sort of see a case for it either way, but I still think the table variation you'll encounter is going to be more trouble than it's worth unless the concept is REALLY important to you.
I agree with James: it'd help if we knew what kind of picture you're trying to paint here.
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He would also not be able to use Any "Two Weapon" feat, including Defense when using spell combat.BUT YOU CAN'T ATTACK WITH IT, You can't do ANYTHING with that hand in the same round you do spell combat.LazarX, he's already stated that he's not talking about attacking with it in the same round as using Spell Combat.
I don't think he was intending to do that, either.
As I understand it, his ONLY question is whether his hand counts as "free" for Spell Combat if he's wearing a spiked gauntlet but doesn't attack with said gauntlet that round.
Would a spiked guantlet still be a free hand when Two Weapon Fighting is not being utalized (no extra attack)?Yes, just as a buckler on the arm of such a hand would be granting it's shield bonus.
"Hand free" is up there with natural attacks 'free' meaning for example that one cannot make claw attacks from the hands wielding manufactured weapons as they are not currently 'free'.
At least that is how I read it.
But it sounds as if you have some more plans for this character than you are sharing with us. Perhaps you would give the full picture that we might be able to see it in the proper light?
What are you looking to achieve here? What flavor and what mechanics?
-James
The concept is a Gnome Magus/Ninja. A low strength combatant that utalizes her natural arcane affinity (utalizing the Magus class) and her quickness and stealth (utalizing the Ninja class and TWF feat) to augment the low damage output from small weapons.
What I'm invisioning is the character mostly utalizing TWF (gaining the shield bonus from Two weapon Defense) but still having the ability to cast when necessary (obviuosly losing the TWD benefit) while still being able to press the attack.
My thought was to utalize the spiked gauntlet as it counts as armed and should be applicable to TWD but when it wasn't being used as a weapon/defense, the hand would still be considered free.
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So far as I can tell 'spell combat' itself requires the equivalent of a 'somatic component which cannot be ignored via Still Spell'. If so then this would be the same as 'can I use a hand with a spiked gauntlet on it as the free hand for a somatic spell component'. That requirement exists because you need to be able to make hand gestures which a held item would interfere with, but a normal worn glove or gauntlet would not. Ergo, as a spiked gauntlet shouldn't restrict hand movements any more than regular gauntlets I'd say it should work. You can use that hand to attack, provide the free hand for a somatic component, OR as the free hand for spell combat. Just not all in the same round. Which is the same as if you had a dagger attached to your wrist by a strap... could switch back and forth.
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The concept is a Gnome Magus/Ninja. A low strength combatant that utalizes her natural arcane affinity (utalizing the Magus class) and her quickness and stealth (utalizing the Ninja class and TWF feat) to augment the low damage output from small weapons.
What I'm invisioning is the character mostly utalizing TWF (gaining the shield bonus from Two weapon Defense) but still having the ability to cast when necessary (obviuosly losing the TWD benefit) while still being able to press the attack.
My thought was to utalize the spiked gauntlet as it counts as armed and should be applicable to TWD but when it wasn't being used as a weapon/defense, the hand would still be considered free.
Hmm...
Okay, here's a less rules-muddy idea:
Instead of a spiked gauntlet, use shuriken. Since they're drawn as ammunition (as a freebie), you don't need to have them already in hand, so your hand will always be free when you're not attacking.
You can 5ft step between attacks in a full-attack. So if you're adjacent to your foe, you attack with your melee weapon then 5ft back and whip a shuriken at them. Next round, you reverse the order: whip a shuriken, then 5ft up and slice 'em.
This also opens you up for the Flurry of Stars ninja trick if you want it.
Yes, you lose TWD. But between being small, having high-DEX and already taking Dodge, you should be fine.
So that would be my recommendation.
Hmm...Okay, here's a less rules-muddy idea:
Instead of a spiked gauntlet, use shuriken. Since they're drawn as ammunition (as a freebie), you don't need to have them already in hand, so your hand will always be free when you're not attacking.You can 5ft step between attacks in a full-attack. So if you're adjacent to your foe, you attack with your melee weapon then 5ft back and whip a shuriken at them. Next round, you reverse the order: whip a shuriken, then 5ft up and slice 'em.
This also opens you up for the Flurry of Stars ninja trick if you want it.
Yes, you lose TWD. But between being small, having high-DEX and already taking Dodge, you should be fine.
So that would be my recommendation.
this would less muddy things ... but seeing how I have to start this character at lvl-1 as per the PFS guide, I won't be proficient with Shuriken until I take a lvl of Ninja. Additionally since the character (once attaining ninja) is dependant on sneak attack for damage, she would lose the flank bonus (and sneak damage) when taking the 5ft step back.
I was however unaware you could take a 5ft step during a full attack.
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Another very clunky option (alluded to by CBDunkerson, above) is to have a light weapon on a weapon cord. Drop it as a free action when you want to do Spell Combat. Recover it as a swift action when you want to TWF.
I've personally never liked weapon cords though.
"Hand free" is up there with natural attacks 'free' meaning for example that one cannot make claw attacks from the hands wielding manufactured weapons as they are not currently 'free'.
Now I'm worried about my characters who use armor spikes. Apparently their whole bodies aren't "free"!
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It's very dangerous to use your own paraphrasing of a rule to try and interpret said rule.
Not so much if you're the GM... and I was explaining how I would rule on it and why.
Think about it though. Nothing about this use is the least bit unbalancing, unrealistic, inconsistent, or overly complicated. We were able to come up with several examples (e.g. weapon cords, shuriken, improved unnarmed, natural claws, et cetera) allowing the same mechanic in short order. So why should spiked gauntlets be a problem? Especially when a non-spiked gauntlet wouldn't? That'd be inconsistent with both other gauntlets AND other weapons.
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Armor spikes like unarmed strikes don't require a free hand or the like. Its the difference between being able to use a two-handed weapon with armor spikes and not being able to use any weapon along with armor spikes.
Armor spikes are treated as light weapons for the purpose of threatening adjacent squares. Light weapons require the use of limbs, so you would only be able to make attacks with them if you have a free hand. Thus, wielding a two-handed reach weapon would negate your ability to "wield" (and thus threaten with) armor spikes. This isn't necessarily clear in the rules, but I just discussed it with Jason, and we're both on the same page about the intent.
I guess armor spikes are like Batman bracers?
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Relevant designer commentary:Mr Moreland is not a designer as far as I know. And honestly he's simply wrong there. Take a look at Paizo's barbazu beard for example, or simply continue in that thread as I seem to recall it being retracted therein (could be off in my memory there though).
You don't need a free hand to hold a boot knife... Paizo has embraced the idea of armor spikes and expanded the category in several ways.
-James
I haven't examined the rest of the thread (feel free), but note that Mark says he confirmed intent with Jason. So the "but he's not a designer" angle doesn't quite work in this particular instance (unless of course they both did change their minds).
Oh, by the way, what about what I suggested of just using Spell Combat and Spellstrike with cantrips to emulate TWF without needing an actual weapon?
Unfortunately it would seem there are no touch cantrips for magi so the unarmed combo seems incomparable with spellstrike.
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Oh, by the way, what about what I suggested of just using Spell Combat and Spellstrike with cantrips to emulate TWF without needing an actual weapon?Unfortunately it would seem there are no touch cantrips for magi so the unarmed combo seems incomparable with spellstrike.
Arcane mark is a 0-level touch spell on the magus spell list.
So you use Spell Combat, attacking with your weapon and casting arcane mark. When you cast, use Spellstrike (assuming you're at least 2nd level) to deliver the touch with your weapon.
Boom. Pseudo-TWF without the gear/feats.
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Just be advised that Arcane Mark is a touchy issue with a fair amount of GM's when it comes to spellstrike. And I'm not going to participate in another debate on it in this thread.Oh, by the way, what about what I suggested of just using Spell Combat and Spellstrike with cantrips to emulate TWF without needing an actual weapon?Unfortunately it would seem there are no touch cantrips for magi so the unarmed combo seems incomparable with spellstrike.Arcane mark is a 0-level touch spell on the magus spell list.
So you use Spell Combat, attacking with your weapon and casting arcane mark. When you cast, use Spellstrike (assuming you're at least 2nd level) to deliver the touch with your weapon.
Boom. Pseudo-TWF without the gear/feats.
And normally I won't make suggestions that involve "touchy" issues. However, this particular one's been FAQ'd, so as long as the player has a printout of the FAQ on hand, there shouldn't be an issue.
Would a spiked guantlet still be a free hand when Two Weapon Fighting is not being utalized (no extra attack)?No. Your hand also wouldn't be "free" while carrying a potion, wand, money bag, or dead comrade in that hand.
Except that you can carry a potion, wand, money bag or dead comrade in a hand wearing a spiked gauntlet, so your analogy is invalid.
A locked gauntlet is a different story. That one specifically says "While the gauntlet is locked, you can't use the hand wearing it for casting spells or employing skills." The bolded part implies that while the gauntlet is unlocked, you can use the hand to cast spells. Since the requirement for casting spells (with somatic components) is "You must have at least one hand free to provide a somatic component" and the restriction on magi is "To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components)", I think it's pretty clear that being free for a somatic component and being free for Spell Combat is the same thing.
To summarize:
1) A hand considered free for a somatic component is considered free for Spell Combat.
2) An unlocked locked gauntlet does not restrict spellcasting, implicitly meaning that the hand is free.
3) A gauntlet which does not lock at all (whether or not it has spikes) is no more restrictive than an unlocked locked gauntlet.
4) Therefore: a spiked gauntlet being worn does not interfere with spell combat.
Obviously, if you attack with the spiked gauntlet, it's a different story. But the only way to attack with a spiked gauntlet on the same turn as you attack with your main weapon is to do a full attack, which is a full-round action. Spell Combat is itself a full-round action which specifically only involves attacking with one weapon (plus casting a spell). So there's no way to gain the benefits of Spell Combat while also getting the benefits of the Two-Weapon Fighting rules.
A compelling argument... but I still say the gauntlet path will be more headaches than it's worth.
That I couldn't argue with. It would be a pain to have to build the same logical chain for each GM who disagrees. Still, it can probably be boiled down to "Can I pick something up with that hand while it wears the gauntlet? Then it's free" under most circumstances.
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Still, it can probably be boiled down to "Can I pick something up with that hand while it wears the gauntlet? Then it's free" under most circumstances.
On the other hand, using that as a guide leaves you with "Oh, so I can use a buckler on that arm", followed by a note that nothing short of making an attack with your buckler arm causes you to lose its AC bonus... So if you use spell combat, cast with your buckler hand, and either don't use an attack spell (use a SoD or something) or else funnel it through Spellstrike, you should keep your buckler bonus to AC.
So essentially you've got a full-on Sword-n-Board magus with no downside. That can't be right... can it?
And then the discussion extends to bucklers and the oh-so-popular Dervish Dance...
Given that "You can cast a spell with somatic components using your shield arm, but you lose the buckler's Armor Class bonus until your next turn," I don't really see a reason to prevent them from wearing a buckler. But the act of casting with that hand (required for Spell Combat) disables its bonus, whether or not you channel the spell into Spellstrike or not.