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I think Boons = More fun is inaccurate, it is more Boons = Different Fun. I think not seeing that distinction is part of the problem.
Completely and wholeheartedly agreed. I've got 3 characters I want to play equally at Pacificon. One is a Nagaji, two are humans. Its a different way to have fun, doesn't make it better.
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Haven't we already covered all this? If you want to revisit all these arguments, please just read the beginning of this thread. Or the other five threads that cover the same thing.
Can everyone please just let Mike, Mark, and the Paizo people do their jobs? It's been said before, but seeing as we're all repeating ourselves here: The new guide comes out in a month. Can't we all be patient for one lousy month?
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Haven't we already covered all this? If you want to revisit all these arguments, please just read the beginning of this thread. Or the other five threads that cover the same thing.
Can everyone please just let Mike, Mark, and the Paizo people do their jobs? It's been said before, but seeing as we're all repeating ourselves here: The new guide comes out in a month. Can't we all be patient for one lousy month?
A-fricking-men!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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A-fricking-men!!!!!!!!!!!!!Haven't we already covered all this? If you want to revisit all these arguments, please just read the beginning of this thread. Or the other five threads that cover the same thing.
Can everyone please just let Mike, Mark, and the Paizo people do their jobs? It's been said before, but seeing as we're all repeating ourselves here: The new guide comes out in a month. Can't we all be patient for one lousy month?
But...but what would I discuss in a meaningless way to help me pass my day?
But...but what would I discuss in a meaningless way to help me pass my day?A-fricking-men!!!!!!!!!!!!!Haven't we already covered all this? If you want to revisit all these arguments, please just read the beginning of this thread. Or the other five threads that cover the same thing.
Can everyone please just let Mike, Mark, and the Paizo people do their jobs? It's been said before, but seeing as we're all repeating ourselves here: The new guide comes out in a month. Can't we all be patient for one lousy month?
Gnomes vs Halflings: Who is more delicious?
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Gnomes vs Halflings: Who is more delicious?But...but what would I discuss in a meaningless way to help me pass my day?A-fricking-men!!!!!!!!!!!!!Haven't we already covered all this? If you want to revisit all these arguments, please just read the beginning of this thread. Or the other five threads that cover the same thing.
Can everyone please just let Mike, Mark, and the Paizo people do their jobs? It's been said before, but seeing as we're all repeating ourselves here: The new guide comes out in a month. Can't we all be patient for one lousy month?
Depends on the ages involved, but I would say Halflings. They tend to be more plump and get pop-bellied in their old age. Gnomes tend to generally be more jittery and lean, meaning the meat is tougher and stringier. The same reason why beef is more delicious than horse meat. Finally a reasonably question worth chiming in on. I knew following this thread would pan-out if I just waited long enough.
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What I'm saying though is making stuff entirely exclusive to cons doesn't make sense, because you're allowing some people to have more fun than others by virtue of circumstances that others may not share (financial, time, etc.) which, outside of very specific circumstances, they're not actually able to catch up to. The comparison that stuff isn't fair of in real life doesn't make sense, because things like economic distribution ARE zero-sum games. Contrast that with pathfinder, someone else playing a funny race because they went to a con doesn't get to have any less fun than someone playing the same funny race because they spent Prestige or something opening up access to it. In both cases they're rewards, but one doesn't assume it's reasonable to place a financial burden on someone for the sake of a fantasy game.
You are making a big assumption based on a false premise:
That boons automatically equal more fun.
I tend to like to create my own fun, boon or no. Some people need a shiny to have as much fun as I can create on my own.
To each their own.
But lets not make the assumption that boons equal more fun. Because based on all the consternation they've seem to have caused, that is certainly not true.
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Right, but that's saying "One group of people thinks in the name of fun everyone should have fair access. Another group has a raging ego and hates their sense of superiority being trampled on by other people who want to have fun! Someone has to lose!"
Actually, it could also be saying, "I don't have a boon, I don't want a boon, and I don't think that all these new fangled races should be opened up for everyone because I don't like them."
This isn't just about haves and have nots.
This is about the fact that we all have our own opinions that aren't necessarily tied to whether we want or don't want a boon or alternate race.
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What I'm saying though is making stuff entirely exclusive to cons doesn't make sense, because you're allowing some people to have more fun than others by virtue of circumstances that others may not share (financial, time, etc.) which, outside of very specific circumstances, they're not actually able to catch up to. The comparison that stuff isn't fair of in real life doesn't make sense, because things like economic distribution ARE zero-sum games. Contrast that with pathfinder, someone else playing a funny race because they went to a con doesn't get to have any less fun than someone playing the same funny race because they spent Prestige or something opening up access to it. In both cases they're rewards, but one doesn't assume it's reasonable to place a financial burden on someone for the sake of a fantasy game.You say we cannot use "it's not fair" and bring in real-life economics, however, by the simple virtue of stating that people cannot attend cons due to their circumstances brings real-life economics because some of that "circumstance" is that people cannot afford to go.
There has to be a dividing line between when things are available and when things aren't. Paizo has make that line with making the boons convention only... it's not as if they are only at the huge conventions, smaller local conventions can get them too if they have the tables to qualify.
Paizo isn't asking you to spend tons of money to go to conventions, that is a free-will choice that you make, to go or not to go. If you go you get a chance at something because you have made the committment to go. If you don't, then you don't get a chance at something. Is it something that 100% of the player base is going to be happy with? no, because not 100% of the playerbase can make it to conventions.
Sorry if I sound harsh, but thems' the breaks. Not everything in life, be it real or fantasy is going to be fair.
Please correct me if I'm wrong Thea, but you are speaking on this side of things from a mouth that isn't going to the conventions this year?
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Please correct me if I'm wrong Thea, but you are speaking on this side of things from a mouth that isn't going to the conventions this yearWhat I'm saying though is making stuff entirely exclusive to cons doesn't make sense, because you're allowing some people to have more fun than others by virtue of circumstances that others may not share (financial, time, etc.) which, outside of very specific circumstances, they're not actually able to catch up to. The comparison that stuff isn't fair of in real life doesn't make sense, because things like economic distribution ARE zero-sum games. Contrast that with pathfinder, someone else playing a funny race because they went to a con doesn't get to have any less fun than someone playing the same funny race because they spent Prestige or something opening up access to it. In both cases they're rewards, but one doesn't assume it's reasonable to place a financial burden on someone for the sake of a fantasy game.You say we cannot use "it's not fair" and bring in real-life economics, however, by the simple virtue of stating that people cannot attend cons due to their circumstances brings real-life economics because some of that "circumstance" is that people cannot afford to go.
There has to be a dividing line between when things are available and when things aren't. Paizo has make that line with making the boons convention only... it's not as if they are only at the huge conventions, smaller local conventions can get them too if they have the tables to qualify.
Paizo isn't asking you to spend tons of money to go to conventions, that is a free-will choice that you make, to go or not to go. If you go you get a chance at something because you have made the committment to go. If you don't, then you don't get a chance at something. Is it something that 100% of the player base is going to be happy with? no, because not 100% of the playerbase can make it to conventions.
Sorry if I sound harsh, but thems' the breaks. Not everything in life, be it real or fantasy is going to be fair.
You're right, I'm not able to make it to conventions this year, that is because of circumstances out of my control, but I'm also not whining about not getting boons; so I'm not sure what your point is
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Actually, it could also be saying, "I don't have a boon, I don't want a boon, and I don't think that all these new fangled races should be opened up for everyone because I don't like them."
This is how I feel, actually. Though mainly I have a problem with the specific race that leads to incredibly awkward table dynamics more often than not because someone feels like ramming a fetish down the throat of everyone else at the table as opposed to any kind of internal game-world consistency.
Also notice that I've never said we should simply open up all the options for anyone who wants one. My suggestion was to require a convention boon or an insane amount of Prestige spent to be able to do it. Either way it's a reward, but one option is open to players who don't have access to conventions. That also doesn't really serve to undermine convention boons.
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Please correct me if I'm wrong Thea, but you are speaking on this side of things from a mouth that isn't going to the conventions this yearYou're right, I'm not able to make it to conventions this year, that is because of circumstances out of my control, but I'm also not whining about not getting boons; so I'm not sure what your point is
My point is, that you are living proof, that circumstances out of your control are keeping you from going to conventions this year, and as such, you aren't going to get a boon. Yet, you are arguing that keeping Boons as Convention Only is a good thing.
Just trying to make a point to the OTHERS, not you (I agree with you, and am trying to argue the same point you are), that you don't need a boon to have fun.
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Actually, it could also be saying, "I don't have a boon, I don't want a boon, and I don't think that all these new fangled races should be opened up for everyone because I don't like them."This is how I feel, actually. Though mainly I have a problem with the specific race that leads to incredibly awkward table dynamics more often than not because someone feels like ramming a fetish down the throat of everyone else at the table as opposed to any kind of internal game-world consistency.
Also notice that I've never said we should simply open up all the options for anyone who wants one. My suggestion was to require a convention boon or an insane amount of Prestige spent to be able to do it. Either way it's a reward, but one option is open to players who don't have access to conventions. That also doesn't really serve to undermine convention boons.
How does making it a prestige reward make any sense at all?
I spend 31 prestige from my 12th level Half-Orc Oracle (Battle)/Barbarian (Invulnerable Rager)/Rage Prophet to make him what? A Snake man, or a fox man, or a bird man? He's been what he is his entire life, and he's good at it. Why would your faction want to cast Polymorph on you to make you into something else?
And why would I ever want to spend any amount of prestige on one character, to open up a race option for a brand new character?
How does that make any thematic sense?
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Please correct me if I'm wrong Thea, but you are speaking on this side of things from a mouth that isn't going to the conventions this yearYou're right, I'm not able to make it to conventions this year, that is because of circumstances out of my control, but I'm also not whining about not getting boons; so I'm not sure what your point isMy point is, that you are living proof, that circumstances out of your control are keeping you from going to conventions this year, and as such, you aren't going to get a boon. Yet, you are arguing that keeping Boons as Convention Only is a good thing.
Just trying to make a point to the OTHERS, not you (I agree with you, and am trying to argue the same point you are), that you don't need a boon to have fun.
Agreed, I've had just as much fun playing my elven or human or gnome characters as I have had playing my dhamphir .. it's the player that puts the fun into the game, not the race.
Do I think a Kitsune character would be fun.. yeppers ... but it is what it is
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And why would I ever want to spend any amount of prestige on one character, to open up a race option for a brand new character?Nobody is forcing you to do it, you could just go to a convention~
You know, your wobbling arguments are really starting to get confusing.
You still didn't answer the question either. How does that make thematic sense? Prestige is your fame gained within your faction. Why would Andoren let me spend 30 prestige so that a catwoman could suddenly become a Chelaxian rogue?
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How does playing at a convention make thematic sense to suddenly gaining the ability to create a new character?
I'm trying to argue "It doesn't make in-game sense" is a stupid argument considering the whole point of convention boons doesn't make in-game sense in the first place. The argument is that from an attractiveness of the game and conventions standpoint convention boons make sense. Spending prestige meets the same criteria.
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How does playing at a convention make thematic sense to suddenly gaining the ability to create a new character?
I'm trying to argue "It doesn't make in-game sense" is a stupid argument considering the whole point of convention boons doesn't make in-game sense in the first place. The argument is that from an attractiveness of the game and conventions standpoint convention boons make sense. Spending prestige meets the same criteria.
You're missing the point ... Andrew is asking how spending a prestige point on one character to open up a new race makes thematic since for the character spending the prestige point..
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Can we just agree that Kitsune should never be allowed for play, ever, and then disagree elsewhere? At its core I'm happy with anything as long as I don't have to play with kitsune.What is it exactly that you're fighting for?
Is it that you don't like a race and therefore it should be made legal? What about if I didn't like dwarves and lobbied for dwarves to be made illegal?
You have the option at each and every game you play to get up and leave the table if you don't like the makeup of the table. You have the power to make the choice to stay and enjoy a game despaite the person beside you wearting a tail and fuzzy ears or get up and walk away and complain about the "furry" that sat at "your" table.
*insert line where I want to say something snarky and mean and I'm not.. I should get a cookie *
Man... you talk about "snarky remarks" and how you should get a cookie for not doing so and yet with everyword you are being more condescending then Stonecunning ever was. He states his opinion and how he feels and you seem to cut him down. He does NOT like Kitsune and might even try and lobby to get them removed. So be it. If you do not like dwarves then by all means you go right ahead and lobby to get em banned.
I agree with him about the racial boons and conventions but you already know that being in past threads you did the same thing to me when I stated my opinion. So I guess that means you are for the fact that everyone does not deserve the Racial boons and being you are getting them by going to conventions to get them you are better? I do not think that at all by the way but you seem to imply that you are and that everyone that can't go should suck it up and live with it. After all life is not fair right?? So not everyone gets to do something and that there should be cliques in PFS just like there was in the RPGA.
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How does playing at a convention make thematic sense to suddenly gaining the ability to create a new character?
I'm trying to argue "It doesn't make in-game sense" is a stupid argument considering the whole point of convention boons doesn't make in-game sense in the first place. The argument is that from an attractiveness of the game and conventions standpoint convention boons make sense. Spending prestige meets the same criteria.
Ok, please don't take this as accusatory. But are you just trolling this thread? Seriously.
Your arguments are circular at best, many of us are having a hard time figure out what you are even arguing about, and now...
You are mixing up in game thematic sense, with out of game rewards.
Why does it have to make thematic in-game sense for me, Andrew Christian, to earn a boon that lets me create a new character with some new shiny?
Andrew Christian is not a character in the game. At least I hope life isn't just a game, and some day some Svirfneblin with a Half-dragon celestial crocodile will eat me for lunch!
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You are mixing up in game thematic sense, with out of game rewards.Because I'm pointing out that caring about internal-game consistency when we already have something like convention boons is dumb as hell and a giant double standard designed to fuel a clique of convention goers which basically makes PFS have the worst parts of the RPGA all over again.
I've stated that my personal opinion is that some races simply shouldn't be allowed for reasons other than consistency. I've also stated that as long as they ARE allowed then treating them as medals of circlejerky-ness for being a more hardcore PFS fan willing to spend money/time to go to conventions is kind of dumb.
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So I guess that means you are for the fact that everyone does not deserve the Racial boons and being you are getting them by going to conventions to get them you are better?
Not going to touch most of that, but I will state for the record that she has already stated that she is not going to be getting boons as she is not going to any conventions this year because she is in the camp of can't go for various reasons this year.
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Can we just agree that Kitsune should never be allowed for play, ever, and then disagree elsewhere? At its core I'm happy with anything as long as I don't have to play with kitsune.What is it exactly that you're fighting for?
Is it that you don't like a race and therefore it should be made legal? What about if I didn't like dwarves and lobbied for dwarves to be made illegal?
You have the option at each and every game you play to get up and leave the table if you don't like the makeup of the table. You have the power to make the choice to stay and enjoy a game despaite the person beside you wearting a tail and fuzzy ears or get up and walk away and complain about the "furry" that sat at "your" table.
*insert line where I want to say something snarky and mean and I'm not.. I should get a cookie *
Man... you talk about "snarky remarks" and how you should get a cookie for not doing so and yet with everyword you are being more condescending then Stonecunning ever was. He states his opinion and how he feels and you seem to cut him down. He does NOT like Kitsune and might even try and lobby to get them removed. So be it. If you do not like dwarves then by all means you go right ahead and lobby to get em banned.
I agree with him about the racial boons and conventions but you already know that being in past threads you did the same thing to me when I stated my opinion. So I guess that means you are for the fact that everyone does not deserve the Racial boons and being you are getting them by going to conventions to get them you are better? I do not think that at all by the way but you seem to imply that you are and that everyone that can't go should suck it up and live with it. After all life is not fair right?? So not everyone gets to do something and that there should be cliques in PFS just like there was in the RPGA.
Anyone wanna join my "Gotta Tengu Boon" clique?
Really? Are we really saying that those who get boons at cons are being elitist and that its going to create a system of cliques of those with Tengu and those without?
I think that's a really silly sentiment, and I'm not being condescending.
I mean, I could be wrong, and have to eat some crow (see what I did there?) but cliques will happen no matter what. That's the way of human beings.
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You are mixing up in game thematic sense, with out of game rewards.Because I'm pointing out that caring about internal-game consistency when we already have something like convention boons is dumb as hell and a giant double standard designed to fuel a clique of convention goers which basically makes PFS have the worst parts of the RPGA all over again.
I've stated that my personal opinion is that some races simply shouldn't be allowed for reasons other than consistency. I've also stated that as long as they ARE allowed then treating them as medals of circlejerky-ness for being a more hardcore PFS fan willing to spend money/time to go to conventions is kind of dumb.
If you are going to create an in-game mechanic to handle an out of game reward, then the in-game mechanic needs to make in-game thematic sense.
Otherwise, you break the verisimilitude of the game.
Call it dumb as hell if you want, but I tend to like to keep some bit of thematic cohesiveness to the games I play and don't want in game mechanics to suddenly be used for out of game rewards.
You are missing the clear line I'm drawing.
Getting a boon like +2 perception bonus, that you get to add to your character, doesn't break verisimilitude. Thematic sense can be made of it, especially if it has to be applied to a new character, or its based on some form of training or whatever.
Being able to spend Andoren Prestige to create a Chelaxian Catfolk does not make thematic sense. And it should.
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To be honest I would love to come up with a system that would make it so that racial boons are not just given out willy nilly so that anyone and everyone has them but I can't figure out a way to do so right now. A system that would allow for anyone to be able to get one though with out having to "pay" for the right to travel across country to go to a convention, or pray that a local convention "might" have them.
I would love as a player if I could say play 45 games and be able to do an electronic drawing of some sort for a "chance" at a racial boon. Or as a GM everytime I get a star I get a special boon of some sort might be racial might be something else. Other then, look I got a start and when I get my fourth one I might be able to GM a special before it officially gets released.
There is a sense of fairness about this as conventions can STILL offer racial boons but it is NOT the only way it can be achieved. So there is more then one way to achieve it. If as a group we try and come up with a way to do it then a lot more people would be happy then there is now and some of the cliques that are seeming to crop up that says "life is unfair live with it" and such might go away or at least be partially silenced.
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]Man... you talk about "snarky remarks" and how you should get a cookie for not doing so and yet with everyword you are being more condescending then Stonecunning ever was. He states his opinion and how he feels and you seem to cut him down. He does NOT like Kitsune and might even try and lobby to get them removed. So be it. If you do not like dwarves then by all means you go right ahead and lobby to get em banned.I agree with him about the racial boons and conventions but you already know that being in past threads you did the same thing to me when I stated my opinion. So I guess that means you are for the fact that everyone does not deserve the Racial boons and being you are getting them by going to conventions to get them you are better? I do not think that at all by the way but you seem to imply that you are and that everyone that can't go should suck it up and live with it. After all life is not fair right?? So not everyone gets to do something and that there should be cliques in PFS just like there was in the RPGA.
I have never said nor have I tried to imply that because I was going to conventions and getting boons that I am better than everyone else, please don't put assume words or ideas based on what you think I mean.
I don't believe that there should be cliques in PFS, I can't speak on the RPGA as I wasn't involved with that.
The side arguing for "fair" brings real-life into the argument every times it's made, so why should the fact that in real-life not every gets what they want be such a huge leap?
There is no deserve or not deserve, that is an opinion from your side of the argument not mine.
As for going to conventions, in case you missed it, I'm not able to make it to the big conventions to get boons this year, so I'm going to be in the camp that does without. Do you see me upset about this? no.
Did I mean to sound condescending? nope, if that's the way you took it then I apologize for your perception of my words.
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Really? Are we really saying that those who get boons at cons are being elitist and that its going to create a system of cliques of those with Tengu and those without?Read this thread and tell me people aren't being clique-y.
I have, I've been involved in this thread most of the way through it.
People aren't being clique-y.
Just because they disagree with you, doesn't mean they are cliquing up together.
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]Man... you talk about "snarky remarks" and how you should get a cookie for not doing so and yet with everyword you are being more condescending then Stonecunning ever was. He states his opinion and how he feels and you seem to cut him down. He does NOT like Kitsune and might even try and lobby to get them removed. So be it. If you do not like dwarves then by all means you go right ahead and lobby to get em banned.
I agree with him about the racial boons and conventions but you already know that being in past threads you did the same thing to me when I stated my opinion. So I guess that means you are for the fact that everyone does not deserve the Racial boons and being you are getting them by going to conventions to get them you are better? I do not think that at all by the way but you seem to imply that you are and that everyone that can't go should suck it up and live with it. After all life is not fair right?? So not everyone gets to do something and that there should be cliques in PFS just like there was in the RPGA.
Anyone wanna join my "Gotta Tengu Boon" clique?
Really? Are we really saying that those who get boons at cons are being elitist and that its going to create a system of cliques of those with Tengu and those without?
I think that's a really silly sentiment, and I'm not being condescending.
I mean, I could be wrong, and have to eat some crow (see what I did there?) but cliques will happen no matter what. That's the way of human beings
No Andy, what I am saying is that some people are acting cliquish with the Life is unfair comments and such, NOT Elitist. What I am asking is that we come up with a different way to do this other then JUST conventions. BTW I was reply to Mr Bunny and his remarks and how he was being cliquish.. not yourself sir, but I guess the internet is again misleading.
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To be honest I would love to come up with a system that would make it so that racial boons are not just given out willy nilly so that anyone and everyone has them but I can't figure out a way to do so right now. A system that would allow for anyone to be able to get one though with out having to "pay" for the right to travel across country to go to a convention, or pray that a local convention "might" have them.
I would love as a player if I could say play 45 games and be able to do an electronic drawing of some sort for a "chance" at a racial boon. Or as a GM everytime I get a star I get a special boon of some sort might be racial might be something else. Other then, look I got a start and when I get my fourth one I might be able to GM a special before it officially gets released.
There is a sense of fairness about this as conventions can STILL offer racial boons but it is NOT the only way it can be achieved. So there is more then one way to achieve it. If as a group we try and come up with a way to do it then a lot more people would be happy then there is now and some of the cliques that are seeming to crop up that says "life is unfair live with it" and such might go away or at least be partially silenced.
above
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No Andy, what I am saying is that some people are acting cliquish with the Life is unfair comments and such, NOT Elitist. What I am asking is that we come up with a different way to do this other then JUST conventions. BTW I was reply to Mr Bunny and his remarks and how he was being cliquish.. not yourself sir, but I guess the internet is again misleading.]Man... you talk about "snarky remarks" and how you should get a cookie for not doing so and yet with everyword you are being more condescending then Stonecunning ever was. He states his opinion and how he feels and you seem to cut him down. He does NOT like Kitsune and might even try and lobby to get them removed. So be it. If you do not like dwarves then by all means you go right ahead and lobby to get em banned.
I agree with him about the racial boons and conventions but you already know that being in past threads you did the same thing to me when I stated my opinion. So I guess that means you are for the fact that everyone does not deserve the Racial boons and being you are getting them by going to conventions to get them you are better? I do not think that at all by the way but you seem to imply that you are and that everyone that can't go should suck it up and live with it. After all life is not fair right?? So not everyone gets to do something and that there should be cliques in PFS just like there was in the RPGA.
Anyone wanna join my "Gotta Tengu Boon" clique?
Really? Are we really saying that those who get boons at cons are being elitist and that its going to create a system of cliques of those with Tengu and those without?
I think that's a really silly sentiment, and I'm not being condescending.
I mean, I could be wrong, and have to eat some crow (see what I did there?) but cliques will happen no matter what. That's the way of human beings
How does the fact that I have an opinion and have stuck with it consistently across all the thread mean I'm being cliquy?
Oh,,, and that's Ms. Bunny to you
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No Andy, what I am saying is that some people are acting cliquish with the Life is unfair comments and such, NOT Elitist. What I am asking is that we come up with a different way to do this other then JUST conventions. BTW I was reply to Mr Bunny and his remarks and how he was being cliquish.. not yourself sir, but I guess the internet is again misleading.]Man... you talk about "snarky remarks" and how you should get a cookie for not doing so and yet with everyword you are being more condescending then Stonecunning ever was. He states his opinion and how he feels and you seem to cut him down. He does NOT like Kitsune and might even try and lobby to get them removed. So be it. If you do not like dwarves then by all means you go right ahead and lobby to get em banned.
I agree with him about the racial boons and conventions but you already know that being in past threads you did the same thing to me when I stated my opinion. So I guess that means you are for the fact that everyone does not deserve the Racial boons and being you are getting them by going to conventions to get them you are better? I do not think that at all by the way but you seem to imply that you are and that everyone that can't go should suck it up and live with it. After all life is not fair right?? So not everyone gets to do something and that there should be cliques in PFS just like there was in the RPGA.
Anyone wanna join my "Gotta Tengu Boon" clique?
Really? Are we really saying that those who get boons at cons are being elitist and that its going to create a system of cliques of those with Tengu and those without?
I think that's a really silly sentiment, and I'm not being condescending.
I mean, I could be wrong, and have to eat some crow (see what I did there?) but cliques will happen no matter what. That's the way of human beings
You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.